Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.

I would aver that most Americans fear socialism because each individual imagines they will win the Lotto or get rich and have to share their new wealth with others.

Most Americans think they have a chance to be on top one day.

Well, for the majority, it won't happen.

For the 0.001% that luck out, and the irest of the diots who think they will be rich some day, they fear socialism out of greed...plain and simple.

How do you define successful? To me it's someone who is satisified with their job/income. I am! I don't envy other's and their money. I am satisified with what I earn...I work hard for it and it feels good.

I didn't graduate from college. I started a family as soon as I graduated from college. But I did work my way the up the corporate ladder and have been compensated for my work ethic, intellect and experience. My boss graduated from high school, put off a family, got student loans, graduated from college, got his juris doctorate and is now making 6 figures. He made sacrifices that I didn't. Of course he should be compensated for it.

I know alot of successful people...even though they don't think they are succesful. Successful is a relative term.

I think athletes (elebritie in general) make more than their contribution dictates, but that is not for me to say. Their income is based on what they PRODUCE, which is a gate (money) for their bosses (managers, companies etc).

I admit I am not authorized to determone pay scale for anyone except for any I pay directly. You don't have that right either, neither does any government.

Human Nature and Socialism


Monday April 19, 2010


An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism". All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride, as well, so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. In the end, the entire class failed.

The professor explained that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


[link to beginnersinvest.about.com]

No, you are wrong about the average American. We want what we EARN, no matter how much or how little it is.

Here's an example of how our system works and why many of us don't like it.

Say I buy strom insurance to cover potential damage to my house. My neighbor does not buy insurance, maybe he spends that money on beer and gambling. If a hurricane comes, the govt will repair his roof, my insurance pays to repair my roof. But the givt gets some of the money for his damage from my taxes. He gets rewarded for irresponsibility, and I get punished for being responsible. That is socialism

NO. It is NOT a "socialist" idea. It is based upon a free market supply and demand, as well as finding value based upon the services supplied providing the highest quality of life. And that is where you bring back in the mores of a belief in a JUST society, based upon the 10 Commandments.

Yes the US was founded by two groups of people with two divergent points of view, based upon their religious beliefs. One Group followed the Law of Almighty God, the other the Law of the Imposter, and it was THIS group which controlled money, property, and established the "rule of Law" in this country, bringing us to what we have today.

IF the OTHER GROUP had been successful, Free Market Captialism, which is based upon giving value to necessary services which elevate the standard of living for the community and country, would have succeeded and we would not have the moral decay in this country that we see now. In short, we would not be experiencing the Gulf Oil disaster, the crashing economy, the unemployment rates, etc.

While most folks want to leave out Morals and Ethics in a discussion of Politics because it leads to a discussion of Religion, I can assure you that those who are plotting and planning on how to enrich themselves at the expense of others, do not ignore their religious beliefs when determining what and when to take action.

There is a reason that the Freemasons settled in Virginia, and the Pilgrims settled in Massachusetts. Once you understand this, the rest of how the US got HERE, is completely understood.

You know I probably would have fired the professor.

Socialism doesn't mean everyone gets the same grades and pay. This fear is propaganda induced.

It means in simple terms, that there are limits. To 99.9 percent of us, it probably wouldn't hinder any us to excel and prosper at all.

So let me ask this question if a group of corporations and individuals had all the money, wouldn't you ask them to share a little more. Or would you let them keep it, even though it was garnered in a unfair method?

Why are lower middle income Americans (by American standards), that is those earning $30000 yearly (again, bareley above American poverty levels), why is that more wealth than 93% of the entire global population? Free enterprise works.

Maybe you are running with the wrong crowds. Just because YOU don't know sucessful people doesn't prove they don't exist

What it boils down to--and always boils down to--is sex and power.

They don't want socialism because in a situation where everybody is guarenteed the basics, nobody has to sell their children to pedophiles or the bodies to eat. Nobody has to scrub somebody else's toilet.

They know that Socialism/Communisn, don't mean exceptional people can't still make money. What it would mean is that unnaceptonal people with have to compete on a level playing field.

And they are afraid that they won't be able to measure up to other people who can still some how manage to get the "top" women while being broke as a joke.

What would happen with the women if all those broke, despised people suddenly can compete financially?

Communism also does not automatically means conflict with religion.

A true communist is the most religious of men, because his whole philosophy and reason to be boils down to fighting for the general welfare of all people.

You asked for proof, yet you offer hypotheticals.

There is no corporations that control a even a segment of our economy. Early capitalists saw that as being impossible because competition will always emerge (without govt intervention). They did learn they could maximize profits (and reduce cost for consumers) by controling various aspects of production, such as raw materials to sales in manufacturing. Anti monolopy laws are in effect, but they are unnecessary in free market

Was already pointed out. It depends on your definition of success.

I believe my point that this thinking implies equal opportunity, which I don't see, is still valid.

So peace we are debating 2 different points. If you're happy with veiled limits of the present system that's ok. I simply don't buy current Free Market dogma.

93% of the world might use it, but clearly 93% of the wealth is in 5% of the hands. (estimate)

correction:

"What it would mean is that unnaceptional people will have to compete on a level playing field."

correction:

They don't want socialism because in a situation where everybody is guarenteed the basics, nobody has to sell their children to pedophiles or their bodies to eat. Nobody has to scrub somebody else's toilet.

200 million murdered in about 100 years by socialists...
Socialists are satanic scum.

What's wrong is if you have to FORCE something on people who are causing no harm to others then you are no better than any petty tyrant. People don't want it so leave it alone. Forcing it means some people will die, some will be put in prison for "not complying". Thus, it is wrong.

Consent of the governed. If you don't have that then it's tyranny. I don't like what we have now but that isn't a good case to accept something else that also limits freedom. No thanks.

That is mu next question to you. Why is it so important to convert American attitudes towrds socialism, what is your gain?

America is not free market, it has been corrupted, mainly by fat cats in collusion with govt...that needs to be fixed.

Yes, it depends on defination of sucess. US citizens live better (have more personal wealth) than most other populations. That indicates that free market, even with govt restrictions and obsticles, does work. Higher profits, higher standard of living and higher effeciencies in most areas. If this is not what you want, you should remain in or move to a social country or enviroment (commune)

Further information

Distribution of Wealth around the world

[link to www.omninerd.com]

A new study by the World Institute for Development Economics Research has tackled that question and determined that the richest 2% in the world possess over half of all "household wealth." The comprehensive study, as claimed by the researchers, also states that the poorer half of the world owns less than 1% of the total wealth. For the purposes of the research, the authors took wealth to be assets less what people owe, to include land, buildings, animals, etc. In the case of many developing nations, however, wealth had to be estimated. Not surprisingly, researchers determined that wealth is more concentrated in North America, Europe and in places like Japan and Australia.

[link to news.bbc.co.uk]

Again how is the Free Market Economy really working?

200 MILLION MURDERED BY SOCIALISTS, HELLO WTH UP!

Discard socialism in all it's forms, outlaw it.

I hear you, and don't want to move, happy for what I got. However I'm asking if there is a better way, that's all.

I believe we all have a right as citizens to question the system and the dogma, don't you?

Okay, OP. I see where you're going. Yes, we do have to question the current system which is not one of free markets. We have corporatism.

That said, I can envision a better future where the vast majority of people don't need to be "governed"- even now many don't, we'll be just fine w/out it. They have been dumbed down to believe that is the case, though. Any kind of system we have, until people EVOLVE, is going to be corrupt. Because, in the end, it's about control and those who seek it over others will be the ones who find their way to positions where they can wield the power they crave. Until we live in a world where those who seek power over others are never allowed to have it then no system is going to work. That's not possible now but I hold out hope that in the future we will be there. When that happens, talks of socialism vs capitalism vs communism will be moot. Because people won't need to be 'ruled over'.

If these people in socialist countries are so happy, why is their suicide rate so high? You will notice all those you claim to be so blissful rate far higher on the rate of suicides than the US.

We don't make the top ten in suicides, either. In fact, we are 40, far behind all the socialist countries you are claiming contain such happy people.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]


In fact, I think currently it is Finland that has the highest rate.

This says much more to me and is the bottom line rather than some skewed study.

Socialism only works on Star Trek.(and even then, they practiced capitalism)

My alternative to socialism is an actual system of governing, not an imaginary one.

Exactly! And if this is not reason enough, see the current situations in Greece, Protugal, Spain and Italy. It doesn't work and never has.

Works only until they run out of the money of the productive. Doesn't take long for even those to figure out there is no incentive to be productive. If all get the same, why work? Almost starved the USSR to death because farmers will not work for the State the same as they will to provide for their families.

Failed system every time it has been tried and the EU is really feeling the pain of it now. Expect this to cecome much worse.

Socialism does not work. I know many socialist liberal scum in Canada will tell you how wonderful it is but the truth is..........NO IT IS NOT A WONDERFUL UTOPIA.

When enough of the useful idiots in Canada are tired of paying the taxes and supporting the FAILED LIBERAL POLICIES the corporation will crumble.

Capitalism and Socialism are partners in the game. That is how it works.

Free Market is the answer.

Somebody better tell me how we continue to pay for socialized health care in Canada (160 billion right now, only 35 million people).

Somebody better tell me how we continue to pay for the socialist pension (wait until the boomer's have started the full on collection)

Somebody better tell me WHY THE HELL I HAVE A SENATE THAT IS NOT VOTED IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Screw all you MARXIST scum. CHE WAS NOT A HERO YOU MORONS!

People take care of people and you don't need socialism to make that happen.

I was raised to think Canadians are FREE. Guess what, that is the BIGGEST LOAD OF CRAP taught to us.

The great leaders that institute socialism or it's cousins(marxism, communist, collectivism) are always sure that their system is not flawed, they know it will work. The problem come when it doesn't work as planned. In the leaders minds, it is either because they did not have enough CONTROL, or the population is not doing it's part. The solution then is dictatorship or elimination of undesirable citizens, or both.

That's not a system I want to experiment with.

History has proved that governments are corrupt and unfair. Why would you trust the government to redistribute wealth?

Look at the banker bailouts. Totally wrong but it was done. It's the corrupt government giving money to their corrupt partners, the banks.

America is already very socialist and it's failing.

And any system will work if you simply kill off the non-productive. This has been done by starvation many times in the past, killing millions.

Parts of our own government currently are socialistic in nature. Social Security, universal healthcare tried in two of our States, big union pension and healthcare benefits, etc.

See a pattern there? Why, yes, I do believe all these programs have totally failed or bankrupt the organizzation/state promoting them.

And we already see the universal solution to the problem here as well--rationing of healthcare to the elderly. Yet another way to achieve the same things done by starvation and the firing squads in other socialist countires in the past. Certainly not all have reached that level but enough have to set the course.

Sweden is probably one of the most socialist countries in the world. It is also a quite successful country by almost any standard. In fact, most countries have worse numbers for just about any kind of statistics you care to make. Something is obviously very right about the Swedish system.

And yet something is very wrong too. We who live here can feel it in our guts.

Another Swede posted on the previous page. He stated he has a good life, and yet he deeply hates the very society that provided him this good life. Many Swedes feel that way.

That's the paradox of successful socialism.

I'll be humble for a change, and admit I don't really know what's so fucking wrong about socialism. It just is wrong, somehow. Even when it works, as it does in Sweden.

I think it's mainly a mental or spiritual thing. It's not the physical results of socialism that are necessarily bad, it's what it does to your mind and soul. It's a feeling of suffocation of your spirit more than anything else. Your spirit is crying out to be released.

Well-functioning socialism takes excellent care of your body, but it is a prison to your soul.

I do not have an answer to what would be better though. The US form of capitalism for instance has so many flaws it's not even funny. I mean, people are homeless and starving, right in the midst of great wealth!

Those who can't see a problem with that lack the basic capacity for compassion.

IMO, the only thing that can make a better system than what is found today possible, is evolution. Humanity must physically evolve to a higher level in order to be able to create a substantially better world than what we have today.

All the flaws in all societies of the world flow naturally from various flaws in the character of Homo Sapiens. We cannot change that, so let's hope we get a genetic upgrade soon!

2012 is said by some to be just that: a genetic upgrade of our species, beamed directly to us from the galactic centre.

I'm actually a firm believer in the mysterious event (the Universe will eventually upgrade our species), but am not yet convinced the given timing is correct (2012). The 2012 date could actually be a giant psy-op.

I don't need no huge government assisted organization to save or help me when I get sick.

I expect to associate with those who dont need a huge government assisted organization to save or help them when they get sick.

We know how to us herbal remedies.
Herbs are 100% threatened by modern doctors.

The Independent god given will exercising rather than sissies needing their asses wiped attitude here.

I notice not predominating so I think I'll start a cult.
I have had about quite enough.

Last Edited by Emerald Isle on 05/20/2010 01:37 PM

btw, I'm not trying to convince anyone that socialism is right. As my opening post says, I want to understand your fears of it, as well as hear alternatives. so far some have discussed logically, some of you are just plain angry about it.

I feel that the present form of capitalism is inherently weak. You have to admit it's taken us to the edge a few times.

To all who are taking offense to my discussion, please give your heads a fucking shake. Are we that brainwashed we simply can't discuss conceptions and misconceptions about socio-economic theories, with out anger. This isn't Holocaust denial.

Again I'm not pushing anything here, my agenda is discussion period.

So any one care to list off the countries that committed this 200 million genocide/apocalypse?

Make sure they were really socialist, not communist there is a difference.

I would exclude Germany as well as they were really Fascist, even though Hitler came to power through the National Socialist Party.