Male egos, and strong, independant women...

I appreciate everyone's imput on my thread this morning...:)
Def. some good stuff in here...some things to ponder on today.

But, now, it's time for me to go create...:)
I have a painting in progress, that needs my attention...so I'm off to the studio!

I'll come back later and see if anyone has contributed anything else in my absence.
Till then...Adios!! :)

It's the natual order of things.

Women can do it all they want, but it will not bring them happiness in the long run.

A 50 year old woman with a 27 year old guy. Most people just look at this and think "she has some serious issues going on there".

Not to mention his mommy issues.

The problem with most "independent" "successful" women is that they are virtually always making subconscious digs at the guy for NOT being as successful as they are. It is subtle words and comments. Not anything direct where one can say "you said this" or "you did this" ... which is the problem. It is insidious and below the surface which makes it difficult to counter.

Most normal men eventually grow tired of that stuff, some almost immediately, some after a period of time, and bail. This is the reason why the wacky self absorbed guys, often end up with the more famous, successful, or very good looking woman ... they don't give a shit about her anyway, she is just an object, so the woman's subconscious digs just roll off the narcisitic guy's back. Look at Jessie James ... a perfect example of the type of guy who can put up with the super successful woman, because in reality deep down he doesn't give a shit about her and is pursuing a different agenda. (or the younger guy who is willing to always defer to the woman)

For a number of years I dated the "successful career" types (including the President of a large company, some docs, a number of independent business owners, a top model) more than one of whom wanted to get married to me ... and finally came to the realization that for me it wasn't working and would never work. No matter what they said verbally in their minds it was always ultimately about them and always would be about them and their subconsciousness kept driving actions and words that conveyed that message. The subconsicous digs and the self absorbed vibes that they were always putting out just below the surface was not something that I wanted to deal with for life.

NEVER AGAIN became my operating mantra ... and decided to stick to socializing with the everyday types and enjoyed it a LOT more (the type I finally married). Give me an operating room nurse any day over a model, or large company's President for that matter (docs are sometimes OK). Everyday women who aren't full of themselves even on a subconscious level are who I wanted, and still want, to deal with. Sure it was fun at times to date the knock dead gorgeous always "with it" woman, but eventually it becomes a drag since one is always feeling the subconscious digs that are there week after week. (watching a nice guy I know go through this at the moment, and he is still somewhat clueless as to what is happening but I can see his self esteem slowly slipping away. She is a very nice person too in addition to being knock dead gorgeous, but it is the constant subconscious stuff that she does that is slowly eating him up.I like them both but hope the light goes on soon for him and he gets out before it causes him too much damage)

Strong and independant is nice. However many women are just not happy today. Not all, but many especially in the states. They just dont know what they want no matter how much you ask them. And when they get something they want they realise they want something else altogether. Why is this? As a man I will never know. But I do think that growing up trying so hard to be basically a man in mindset is really messin with ladies today.

Strong independant does not have to mean intolerable, selfish and self centered like a lot of them are today.
I think a good way to be if a woman wants to be strong and independant would be say......a calamity jane type. She was strong, could do it herself and tell you about it too. Nothing wrong with that, but she also was respectful of men too. And the men respected her. Thats whats lacking in independant women today. The utter disregard for men. And thats the truth of it.

Be strong, be independant because there millions of women who fit the bill and are intelligent and justas smart as any man......but stop tryig o be men, keep your womanhood as well.

Thanks Op, right now though I am taking some time out for myself. My main issue seems to be how 'fussy' and 'selective' I am. I do prefer younger guys though..

Personally, I believe the natural order of things is in a state of flux. Sometimes it is summer, sometimes winter, we have day then night. Right now, I do feel feminine energy has been increasing and there appears to be more confusion in the relationship department.

I do not know if the relationship with my 50yo friend and her 27yo guy will last, but right now, they are both very, very happy.

To me, as long as both partners can grow, respect each other and are happy - these are the most important factors, and not to worry too much about what other people think.

Please don't make me laugh OP, if I wanted a strong independent women as my partner, I'd look to a gay male for a relationship.

I want a women who is a women, who doesn't reject herself, in some crazy search for a career.

it's been my experience, that strong independent women, end up old and lonely and hating themselves, in office full of other women, where they brutally claw themselves, until they die of boredom, or cancer.

People need, based on their needs, and when someone denies their needs, they deny themselves, eventually no amount of "self Talk", can push down, who and what you are, without development of schizoid personality traits.

Men need women who are women, and vice versa..

I don't agree.....
The same can be said about younger women and older men...the women are looking for a "Daddy" figure in their lives.
Unless we take a survey of how many older women/younger men relationships have fared over several years, I don't think we will be able to properly gauge how 'successful' they are.
It's all just conjecture...

Wow...that was a very nice, sincere reply to my question, and I thank you for it.
I bet there are some women that do this, and don't even realize that they are doing it!
Maybe it's something within themselves that they feel they need to keep it out there that they too are just as successful as the person they are dating.
I know it isn't easy for women to be taken seriously in the 'business' world, and it creates animosity....even if it isn't spoken verbally.
We've had to claw our way into the 'work arena", and it hasn't been easy....I can see where someone might very well want to keep this in the forefront...so no one forgets how hard she worked to get there.
Not saying that it's alright to constantly make belittleing comments about the man....but I can see it happening, just because they feel like they had to work twice as hard as a man to aquire the same status in the work arena.

In my initial post, I wasn't neccessarily just speaking about jobs, or earning power...I was also adressing 'working women", that are just independant, and don't feel the 'need' to have to have support from a man.
I'm no 'professional' type....I'm an artist that wears beat up clothes, and is covered in paint when I'm working...I'm a "blue collar girl'.
But even being in this area, I still run into it with men...
I've literally been told 'you are intimidating'...because of my skills, because of my independance ( I don't 'need' people in my life)...I can take them, or leave them, makes no differance to me.
Company and companship are nice sometimes...but I don't "have" to have someone around me all the time.

Personally, I think these qualities about me are pretty good ones....I'm not some 'needy Nelly', looking for others to 'fulfill me' or 'make me complete'.
I'm just looking for someone to hang out with...someone that I can have fun with, some companionship...love, if it happens.
You'd think men would be looking for someone like me, that wasn't just interested in their paycheck....
But I've found, that the majority of men want you to 'need' them, 'depend' on them...for them to be your 'everything'.
It really turns me off.....because with all that, it never fails, then they start trying to control your life, tell you what you can and can't do...
It always seems to get fucked up!...:(

I was also adressing 'working women", that are just independant, and don't feel the 'need' to have to have support from a man.

That, however, is one of the problems. Over-compensation trying to be independent. When that is the desire, no companionship can ever occur, because it would break the independence. Relationships have to be interdependent.

Perhaps just examine your routines then. If you are all you say you are you might just be in a rut. And by routines I'm not talking about the mundane but more your everyday dynamics.

You make some valid points.....
I know that there are women that are very angry about having to compete in the workplace with men, and it comes thru...
But not all strong, independant women are that way.
I personally love being a woman, and have never wanted to be a man....but we are being pushed into men's roles, whether we want to be there or not by Society these days.

I can understand the animosity, just from personal experiences.
I've spent the better part of my working life, working in a 'Man's Profession".
This female wrapper has caused me sooooooo many problems!
If I go in, wearing nice clothes that don't have paint all over them, I am not taken seriously, because 'I look like a girl"...I don't get the work, even showing them a portfolio of hundreds of signs and murals I've done.
When my Dad wanted me to go be 'trained' in a sign shop...there was not a shop in town that would take me in as an apprentice, even his BEST FRIEND and sign painting buddy!
I was told " you are too pretty, you'd create too much of a disturbance in the shop"
I had to find a woman to 'train' me, and all the male owned shops in the area, hated us...because we kicked ass!

The Haunted house that I worked my ass off redesigning for 2 years...I was told that I was left out of 'team activities'...'Because you are a girl".
It made no differance that I turned out twice the amount of work as the men on the build team.....it all came down to me being treated differantly, 'because you are a girl'.

So, I can see where there could be animosity under the surface.....when you keep running into this kind of thing, it's hard not to.
I can't help it that Creator stuffed me in this wrapper!
I also can't help it that I was born with a gift, and I can paint circles around most of the other people that work in the same area as I do.
It's just how I was born, I had no choice in it.....but I have been made to pay for it, year after year...

Personally, my animosity at having to work under such conditions dosen't get vented on the men in my life, that I love...I reserve it for the actual people that treat me like the way I described above.
They are the ones that have created it, so it should be put no other place than firmly in their laps.
When I love someone, I never want to hurt them, I just want them to be proud to be with me...maybe give me a hug after I've had to deal with the asshole that holds me being a girl, against me, and use it as a reason to treat me differantly, or not give me a job I'm more than capable of.
Men want this from their women they love too, don't they?

Not all strong, independant, intelligent, talented women are bitter shrews....but the ones that are, cast all of us that aren't, in a very bad light that is near impossible to break free of.

I can see that being aplicable in some situations....
But why can't 2 people just continue to be themselves, and walk together at the same time?
I can understand working together to move toward a common goal.....but why does it have to involve being 'dependant' on another person, why can't it simply be 'in conjunction/unison'...working together?
Being independant dosen't have to be a negative thing...it just means that you prefer to walk your own path, and don't 'need' others to prop you up the entire time...your strength to carry on, comes from within, not being sucked out of someone else.

I think that this is like all things...we need to somehow find a balance, a middle ground ...some "moderation' on both sides, men and women, if we are ever going to find a workable path....so we can stop all this animosity, and competition between us.

I don't really have a 'routine' , other than I get up every day, and decide what I want to do with it.
At the moment, I've returned Home, to help my Dad with the house, help take care of him.
He's 73 and losing his vision to Macular Degenration.
If I wasn't here, he'd have to go live at some 'assisted living center'....and I see no reason why he should have to leave the home he worked so very hard to have, so he could enjoy it after retirement.
He'd die in one of those places...and I'm just not ready for him to leave me yet.... I love him too much, and besides my son, he is my only family.

Listen, you're interesting and seem sincere. With sincerity comes a certain about of openness. That may make for good reading for a number of visitors here, particularly women who probably wouldn't come forward on their own.

What you described above as no routine is the mundane and nothing wrong with that but contained within it are the everyday dynamics I was talking about.

Put another way, it's how you hold the world. That is the routine I mean.

Not all of these Strong, independant, intelligent, talented women work in offices....they are found in all walks of life.
The single mother working at Walmart to raise and support her child...
Women that work in the Trades, as electricians and carpenters, welders...

Who says that they are 'rejecting themselves'?
Why could it not possibly be that they are just doing something that they LOVE to do, that makes them happy?

In Society today...the old 'gender roles' don't apply anymore....because it now takes 2 people working, to support a family...it can't just be done with 1 working, and the other staying home to tend to the children and the home.
I'm sure there is still a very small portion of Society that still manages to function this way...but for the vast majority, it is not that way anymore.

Thanks...:)
I am being very sincere, and honest in this thread, because it is a real problem I see in my own life, and in others too...I think it needs to be talked about so we can end all this bullshit, and just love each other.

Well, I guess then that my 'dynamics" are alright....because my Dad and I get along exceptionally well.
I always try to treat others out in the World, the way I'd like to be treated....
I may have some room for improvement...but all in all...I don't think it's majorly out of kilter.

Last Edited by Woodsprite on 09/19/2010 07:11 AM

Yeah!!!!!!
Finally, a man confident enough in his self that he can appreciate a good woman!
Hats off to ya, man...you're one in a million! ;D

Not sure I'm getting my point across and to push it further might run the risk of you thinking I'm singling you out or picking on you.

I'm referencing my comments mostly from your first post in this thread that you put up but here it is again:

In Society today...the old 'gender roles' don't apply anymore....because it now takes 2 people working, to support a family...it can't just be done with 1 working, and the other staying home to tend to the children and the home.
I'm sure there is still a very small portion of Society that still manages to function this way...but for the vast majority, it is not that way anymore.


Examine that. I mean really examine it, like an object you just found and didn't know anything about. From where are you drawing your conclusions? Are you convinced these are established facts. We are stopped by what we know and thus hold we hold the world.

talk about ego stroking... in any case finding a man that's stronger then these independent women, it's no surprise they always gravitate towards the alphas and get burned since the alphas are the only ones that are going to have this perceived 'strength' which is all just bullcrap anyways, strength the way women subconsciously define it in modern society is completely useless as a real world practical trait. Most of these 'men' are pussies and would run at a real confrontation, they are all words, no substance.

he's fine... he has a lot of money and likes to party thus he's always looking in the wrong places for women. You can't have it both ways.. either you're going to settle down or you're going to party, and if you're going to party, you're not going to be in settings where faithful women gather.

it's because most women under 30 don't know how to act in a relationship, or don't want one, they just want to party and gravitate from screwing one bad boy to another. They're all text messaging pop culture zombies these days, not much in the way of individuality or unique personality in women under 30. Bar/club/party/screw/text/rinse/repeat

www.urantia.org. I encourage all of you, men and women to read about the evolution of marriage and marriage and family life and how this all came to pass. You will be ultimately shocked and surprised at the history.

Go to the book and search down to the evolution of marriage and start there. There 3 papers written about marriage and the mores and family life and children,etc... Once you understand the man's role and once you understand the woman's role, it will finally become clear to you.
Very interesting stuff. You don't have to believe it, but educating yourselves helps you in the long run,too.

it's not that there aren't men out there who don't appreciate a good woman, it's just that these men are in general too boring for these good women.. we don't want to spend our lives out partying in every which place in the country. Settling down is settling down.. either have kids and settle down or party, don't try to do both like most women do, then put the kid in second place to the partying.

This Raz guy is an idiot. He takes the opposite side on any thread just to start trouble and bring the thread down. Don't pay any attention to him.

There are guys that are looking for women like that. My oldest brother for example, has selected attorneys for his spousal companions so that he doesn't have to work.


I'm not one of those women though, supported my husband for five years as sole bread winner, and not interested in doing it again.

ahhhhh it is interesting that you make the 1st move- have you given any thought to the idea that your picker may be broken ?

Here is what I here you saying...
"I choose the men I date, but they do not have the qualities I need."

The right partnership- in my thinking, you are right in this- is a 2 way street each building the other up in support, caring, compassion, etc.

I am curious to how long you know a person before you date them, and how long dating before you consider yourself in a relationship. In other words- how long does it take you to commit? Not the other people, just you.

Promise I am not attacking at all :)

Personally, I like the "separate lives" theory, as I call it. I prefer me and my mate to have our own individual interests and hobbies. I do my thing she does hers, when there is a brief time when our schedules line up we enjoy each others company. But neither of us is needed to make the other feel complete. Its very easy for people in a couple to smother each other, or turn into one entity, which causes resentment when you start to realize you lost a part of yourself. I have been in relationships with successful women...and deadbeats. Trust me I prefer a woman who can make some money to help out. If my woman could make enough to support us and I could be a househubby nothing would make me happier. I love to work on the house, clean and cook. Where can I find a woman who will let me do this and not look at me like the deadbeat? When will the pendulum swing far enough to the other side when it is socially acceptable for a male not to work?

All this being said, only a woman can make a man feel like a man. it has nothing to do with jobs, or finances.

ps. Op the reason so many younger guys get this, or act the way you say you want is because of the collapse of the family unit. These young "boys" were raised by single mommies. Very few of them will ever be "men". I dont believe that is what you need. I imagine it would leave you unsatisfied. You still want a "man". There are men out there that fit your criteria, its a long search to find a partner when you arent willing to settle. Trust me Ive been searching for years for a mate. The longer you look the less you want to "settle".

Man was originally the hunter, the woman was the gatherer. Sorry,but you can't have your cake and eat it,too. Not in this day and age. If all men sat home and did nothing but babysit, clean and cook, then what the hell do we need you for? Why don't you have the babies,too? See?
Men turned from the hunter/warrior types to the plow/agriculture, thereby increasing the well-being of the family in general because of his inventiveness, he created, designed, learned to produce more food and with that came evolution, education, financial success, etc... See? Things will never be equal until men really start to appreciate the woman for who and what she is as a person, not just a baby maker and a homemaker.