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Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul

 
ku commando
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03/23/2015 12:23 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
It works, a bump for viewing
 Quoting: rken 68493998



....durn tootin' it works !!
Anonymous Coward
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03/31/2015 07:27 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
It works, a bump for viewing
 Quoting: rken 68493998



....durn tootin' it works !!
 Quoting: ku commando 25390797


bsflag
mondali1

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04/15/2015 02:19 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
bump
mondali
Jknoph

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04/15/2015 11:43 AM
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bump
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
This stuff doesn't work. Please show proof?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 64451471


^^THANK YOU!!! The reason why this thread is a million pages long is because the INFORMATION IS WRONG and therefore provides comedy for the IRS!!!


Terminate your "voluntary" election to file (which they actually allow you to do believe it or not) OR stay liable to pay income taxes...its that simple.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21031050


Bullshit, you use their frn's you pay the fee but good luck with your method of 'terminating your voluntary election to file'. Now THAT will get you a prison sentence.

lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 64905012


Try this method and end up in jail
mondali1

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04/16/2015 04:17 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
This stuff doesn't work. Please show proof?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 64451471


^^THANK YOU!!! The reason why this thread is a million pages long is because the INFORMATION IS WRONG and therefore provides comedy for the IRS!!!


Terminate your "voluntary" election to file (which they actually allow you to do believe it or not) OR stay liable to pay income taxes...its that simple.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21031050


Bullshit, you use their frn's you pay the fee but good luck with your method of 'terminating your voluntary election to file'. Now THAT will get you a prison sentence.

lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 64905012


Try this method and end up in jail
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 62875756

I know plenty of people who use this method and have been for over 5 years, none in jail, none taken to court.
mondali
DR3ADN0T

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04/16/2015 07:00 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
bump
Ephesians 5:14 ..Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Anonymous Coward
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05/30/2015 06:19 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Is this thread still viable?

I notice that those advocating provide lots of thought and many references. The shills just make themselves look stupid with their inane, one line comments.

If it's still active, I would like to revisit some of the discussion points in a more systematic way, which I will elaborate upon
Jknoph

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05/30/2015 06:41 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Is this thread still viable?

I notice that those advocating provide lots of thought and many references. The shills just make themselves look stupid with their inane, one line comments.

If it's still active, I would like to revisit some of the discussion points in a more systematic way, which I will elaborate upon
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38091620


Go for it!
Anonymous Coward
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06/01/2015 05:11 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
OK Rken...thanks.

I was on here some time back and posted a few questions, which seemed to be taken as hostile....clearly not my intention...so I left the thread.

Here is a summary of my progression of thought:

1) The FED is a private, non-governmental (or quasi, perhaps, but equally clear that the FED does not answer, and is not accountable, to the desires of Congress).
2) The shares of the FED are held (owned) by several large, multinational banks....banks, which I point out are not necessarily aligned with the specific interests of the USG. Or at least have no statutory DUTY to act in the best interests of the USG. Technically, banks have a DUTY to act in the best interests of their STOCKHOLDERS ONLY...and if they, in fact, acted in a way contrary to the best interests of the stockholders would be legally liable for damages.
3) The commercial banks are CLEARLY privately held, FOR PROFIT organizations. There is no doubt about that point.
4) Because the FED and the private, for profit, banks are separate corporate and legal entities, there is no DUTY, nor can a DUTY be inferred which is not imposed by strict statutory language, for one to do something on behalf of the other...OR PARTICULARLY FOR AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY. The example I used before was that McDonalds Corporation is a NYSE publically traded corporation, the shares of which are held by private parties. McDonalds awards FRANCHISES to third parties which are authorized to conduct business under the McDonalds name BUT ARE WHOLLY OWNED AND LEGALLY SEPARATE BUSINESSES...operating independently of each other. ONE BUSINESS CANNOT IMPART A DUTY UPON THE OTHER (except, perhaps as authorized in the franchise agreement but that is a clear exception if it in fact exists). The franchisee CANNOT make a commitment or obligation that is binding upon the McDonalds corporation, or vice versa. This is crystal clear business law and there can be no dispute on this point). If I decide to sue the McDonald's corporation for whatever reason, I cannot make legal service on the local franchisee...even though it says McDonalds on the sign.
5) To reiterate, commercial banks and the FED are SEPARATE LEGAL ENTITIES...there is no NEXUS...and despite the fact the banks own shares in the FED, that MEANS NOTHING in terms of each entities respective duties and obligations.
6) Reread point #5. This is the aspect that I couldn't get the OP and OP supporters to address or agree upon before.
7) The language of 12USC411 is crystal clear. Nowhere in the language does it authorize redemption by any commercial bank. Because a commercial bank holds stock in the FED does not mean anything other that they hold stock in the FED. If you own stock in GM, that doesn't mean GM can order you to do something. It's absurd on its face.
SO WHAT DOES THE STRICT LANGUAGE OF 12USC AUTHORIZE AS FAR AS REDEMPTION?

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, it is very clearly a location...AT THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT OF THE UNITED STATES, IN THE CITY OF WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA...

Thats a place, not a concept. They even gave an address.

OR AT ANY FEDERAL RESERVE BANK.

Google FEDERAL RESERVE BANK...your local Chase branch is not going to come up as a choice. Here's a LIST of the 12 FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS:

[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

So, one has 13 choices where federal reserve notes may be exchanged, the TREASURY IN WASHINGTON DC or the 12 FED BANK LOCATIONS.

Also, and importantly, I read the strict language of the code to be a PHYSICAL REDEMPTION. If one were trying to make redemption inconvenient or impractical, one would require PHYSICAL REDEMPTION of SPECIE.

I could expound on the fact there are only $300 MILLION US NOTES available for redemption, as authorized by CONGRESS, and at least $800 BILLION of CIRCULATING federal reserve notes, or 2600 FRN's to 1 USN. That means each us citizen has 1 USN allocated to it, but 2600 potential claims against it because of the congress' guarantee on behalf of the "people" for redemption.

So, in order to truly pay off a lawful debt, there are three options:

1) Pay the debt in US Notes
2) Pay the debt in US MINT coinage...inconvenient, but possible.
3) Redeem FRN's, in the way and manner authorized and REQUIRED by 12USC411, and laboriously outlined above, and pay in redeemed US NOTES.

Also note that the redemption of frn's for US NOTES, RETIRES THE frn from circulation. As stated above, there are not enough US NOTES available to retire all circulating FRN's except at a 2666/1 ratio. How is that ever going to work without a severe discounting of the FRN, which is already technically worthless...but still ACCEPTED FOR VALUE.

And that doesn't even consider all the electronic "dollar" credits lol.

So, Rken, I laid all of this out before and got only nonsense in response. It leads me to two conclusions:

1) SOmebody figured out 95% of the puzzle, but the last 5% is a FATAL flaw, and makes it useless as a defense

2) SHILL/TROLL alert, beckoning the unwary to the rocky shoals of legal headaches.

What say you, on behalf of the true believers?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
oops...Jknopf I meant to say lol
Jknoph

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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
I can only speak for myself. I come at things from a slightly different angle. I will try to explain. However this is not an easy subject, and is easily hijacked into absurdity.

12USC governs banking.

The Federal Reserve is the agent of the U.S. Treasury in carrying out its borrowing powers in Article 1 section 8 clause 2. They also are the agent for the Treasuries distribution of coin authorized by Article 1 section 8 clause 5.

Your local branch bank is your agent for doing what you need done with your monetary needs. You cannot engage directly with the Federal Reserve. Your local bank as your agent fulfills that task.

Essentially they are (2 layers of) middlemen between you and the US Treasury.

Banks can buy paper aka good assets(corpbonds, checks, notes, USbonds, etc) and emit federal reserve notes for said purchase. The issuance of Federal reserve note ARE NOT controlled by Congress. They are authorized by them but not controlled by them. 12USC411 says so: "Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System"

When you present a check to the bank for deposit or cashing do you sign the back and hand it over? Congratulations you just created a taxable event. A check is a contract, a signature only is essentially saying to the bank "do whatever". The bank acting in its own interest buys your check and credits your account with bank credit or gives you federal reserve notes (bank credit). If you demanded current coin by your signature now you force the bank to send that check to the Fed who then gives the bank current coin that is deposited or handed out. If the Fed is low on coin they would send bank credit to the Treasury and they in turn would send newly minted coins to the Fed. The Fed has to buy coin AT FACE VALUE from the mint (not so for FRN's from the BEP, they only pay for printing costs). The Treasury gets to keep the seigniorage created from that transaction as instant profit to the government.

A dollar coin costs about 30 cents to mint and distribute. Meaning that if you demanded $1000 of coin, about $700 of that transaction would be instant profit to the government.

So going back to the taxable event. This precedes the 16th amendment. This only concerns the income tax on wages,tips,or other compensation. Not Corporate income or income derived from any source whatever.

Those are what I like to call the 3 separate primary income taxes.

So the Springer v. US (1881) income tax on wages. The Springer case was actually a twofer. It gave legitimacy to the income tax on wages. However it also started the movement towards the 16th amendment as the other part of the case dealing with taxes on rents,and investment income was eventually struck down in Pollock as a direct tax and then made legal again with the 16th amendment.

So the income tax on the wages part of the case actually got its footing from a case 12 years earlier. Veazie Bank v. Fenno (1869). Reading Springer doesn't tell you anything without keeping this case in mind. The holding as follows (my bolding and hints included)

"It cannot be doubted that under the Constitution the power to provide a circulation of coin is given to Congress. And it is settled by the uniform practice of the government and by repeated decisions, that Congress may constitutionally authorize the emission of bills of credit. ... Having thus, in the exercise of undisputed constitutional powers, undertaken to provide a currency for the whole country, it cannot be questioned that Congress may, constitutionally, secure the benefit of it to the people by appropriate legislation. To this end, Congress has denied the quality of legal tender to foreign coins, and has provided by law against the imposition of counterfeit and base coin on the community. To the same end, Congress may restrain (TAX), by suitable enactments (26 USC), the circulation as money of any notes not issued under its own authority. Without this power, indeed, its attempts to secure a sound and uniform currency for the country must be futile."

Any emission of bank credit that circulates as money is subject to the income tax under Springer and Veazie Bank. Federal Reserve Notes, physical or electronic fall into this category. COIN and UNITED STATES NOTES do not as they are directly emitted by the Treasury.

I would stick to coin and your demand. USN's IMO are not very well understood even though they are still authorized by current law but not issued.

So I don't really give a crap about the corp. structure of the banks or the federal reserve banks. The Fed is a quasi government/private corp. In one hand they facilitate some of the governments powers as their agent. In the other hand they are private for profit corporation. It really depends on which side of the fence you are interacting with.

I hope this helps you a little in your exploration of this subject. This represents my current thoughts on this subject. I could go on a lot more, but I won't.
Anonymous Coward
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06/17/2015 09:37 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
To those who will not read and study (prayerfully) no evidence or proof will will be enough. For those that do, the proof will be seen everyday.

I have proof because I have done it, as have others close to me. The only 5% flaw is a lack of doing, every one of the issues surrounding "redemption for US Treasury notes" AT the Fed banks and or treasury etc has been covered dozens of time in this thread.

Once the demand has been made and the records formed, the one making the demand is no longer subject to title 12, as one is no longer an authorized agent of the Federal reserve, the physical redemption of notes AT any location is not authorized for that man or woman.

The bank employees then are tasked with the cacelation of the debt (or treasury agent).

The notes are evidence of debt, even US treasury Notes. They are irrelevant, but the debt they represent and to whom it is owed is not irrelevant nor is their taxable nature or value.

One might be wise to notify the Secritary of the Treasury exactly how much redemption demand yearly is, after all, it is his lawful duty to keep an accounting of all redemptions and report them to congress on a monthly basis.

Good to the thread is still going strong, only because it works and continues to work.

Sevenoheight.
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06/25/2015 04:01 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
bump
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
6 years of demands for redemption of FRN DEBT in lawful money and still ZERO fines, penalties or court cases against us by the IRS, yes the IRS has tired the "frivolous argument" letters, but those are just offers to contract, which are refused for cause and returned. to date the IRS just stops all contact or offers with those who get the letters.

where are the shills now? still paying their voluntary income taxes of course, or making their paychecks from the scam!

maybe it's just the GLP effect of no IRS doom has been brought down on us?

waiting for the shills to tell me again how the DOOM will happen!!
Anonymous Coward
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07/16/2015 10:33 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
6 years of demands for redemption of FRN DEBT in lawful money and still ZERO fines, penalties or court cases against us by the IRS, yes the IRS has tired the "frivolous argument" letters, but those are just offers to contract, which are refused for cause and returned. to date the IRS just stops all contact or offers with those who get the letters.

where are the shills now? still paying their voluntary income taxes of course, or making their paychecks from the scam!

maybe it's just the GLP effect of no IRS doom has been brought down on us?

waiting for the shills to tell me again how the DOOM will happen!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


Would you be so kind as to share your rebuttal verbiage to the IRS "offers to contract"?
Anonymous Coward
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07/16/2015 10:37 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
6 years of demands for redemption of FRN DEBT in lawful money and still ZERO fines, penalties or court cases against us by the IRS, yes the IRS has tired the "frivolous argument" letters, but those are just offers to contract, which are refused for cause and returned. to date the IRS just stops all contact or offers with those who get the letters.

where are the shills now? still paying their voluntary income taxes of course, or making their paychecks from the scam!

maybe it's just the GLP effect of no IRS doom has been brought down on us?

waiting for the shills to tell me again how the DOOM will happen!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


Would you be so kind as to share your rebuttal verbiage to the IRS "offers to contract"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60547132


BTW, I have been demanding lawful money for three years now. Just looking forward to our friends coming around to contract and how others have addressed that. I'm sure I'm not alone. ...egg
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07/16/2015 11:21 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
6 years of demands for redemption of FRN DEBT in lawful money and still ZERO fines, penalties or court cases against us by the IRS, yes the IRS has tired the "frivolous argument" letters, but those are just offers to contract, which are refused for cause and returned. to date the IRS just stops all contact or offers with those who get the letters.

where are the shills now? still paying their voluntary income taxes of course, or making their paychecks from the scam!

maybe it's just the GLP effect of no IRS doom has been brought down on us?

waiting for the shills to tell me again how the DOOM will happen!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


Would you be so kind as to share your rebuttal verbiage to the IRS "offers to contract"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60547132


This interests me as well.....
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07/16/2015 04:23 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
6 years of demands for redemption of FRN DEBT in lawful money and still ZERO fines, penalties or court cases against us by the IRS, yes the IRS has tired the "frivolous argument" letters, but those are just offers to contract, which are refused for cause and returned. to date the IRS just stops all contact or offers with those who get the letters.

where are the shills now? still paying their voluntary income taxes of course, or making their paychecks from the scam!

maybe it's just the GLP effect of no IRS doom has been brought down on us?

waiting for the shills to tell me again how the DOOM will happen!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


Would you be so kind as to share your rebuttal verbiage to the IRS "offers to contract"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60547132


This interests me as well.....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67687515


Simply write "REFUSAL FOR CAUSE" at a 45 degree angle across the offer. I use a red marker, make a copy for your Federal evidence court of record and send the original back to them via REGISTERED MAIL.

You can get a registered mail label beforehand and write the number from it on their offer so it too becomes "registered".

You have 3 days (business days) to get it to the post office and dated, place the copy and proof of service in your Federal evidence repository. I simply do a "proof of service" title for the district court and subtitle it "refusal for cause". The district court clerk needs a title recognized by their computer record. The clerk will record your paperwork and return it to you.

I personally inform the secretary of treasury of my yearly total demand so the accounting of the public debt will be accurate. The accounting for US Treasury notes is found on table III of the treasuries monthly report to congress of the public debt found on the US treasury website.

If the IRS dishonors your refusal for cause, it might be wise to inform the secretary of treasury of the IRS action (again via registered mail) and demand he fulfill his lawful duties to protect you from further harassment and trespass by the IRS. After all, the IRS is attempting to extort US Treasury lawful money from you, I am sure they would be interested in any attempted extortion of Public money, as the Secretary of treasury is lawfully responsible for the protection and accounting of lawful money of the US Treasury.

Pretty simple, not legal advise, but perfectly lawful advice!
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
End the FED!
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08/23/2015 08:29 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
after watching the "sovereign" gurus, the "strawman" gurus and the 'common law' gurus babble on about how to conduct ones business affairs and falling flat on their faces time after time, i come to this thread and breath free air!!

what a jumbled mess those gurus teach! bragging about being jailed, held in contempt, issuing hundreds of pages of legal BS that the administrators of the US Bankruptcy completely ignore! they do not even bother to read the papers because they are IMMUNE to the law when the DEFENDANT is an endorser of FEDERAL RESERVE DEBT!

take the time to read this thread, take the time! end the FED in your own affairs, end the presumption of being a DEBT peon, end your open endorsement of the fiat currency scam!
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08/23/2015 08:38 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
this thread has been active for nearly 5 years now!

still, not ONE case filed against anyone demanding redemption via 12 USC 411, not ONE dollar in "frivolous filing fees" paid.

not ONE notice of lien filed, not ONE garnishment of wages, not ONCE case filed by the IRS and many new full returns of "income tax witholdings" returned without issue.

where are the shills, liars and ignorant posters now? where is their evidence this does not work? where are the court cases, jail sentences or even ONE charge filed against anyone demanding redemption?

i will answer, there is NOTHING they can say or present to prove this does not work, because it does, it has, and will continue to do exactly what this thread claims it does.

....
Jknoph

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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Springer v. U.S. (1881) and the Currency-Regulating “Springer Income Tax”

Let’s try to dissect the 1881 Springer case (hereafter “Springer”) to see why it’s so widely misunderstood by both lawyers and non-lawyers alike. I’ll try to keep this short, and to the point. You can research further by looking into the cases linked at the end.

Perhaps it's a mystery as to how Springer causes one’s personal wages to become taxable as “wage income” simply because the case is deficient when it comes to facts and information. All we basically know from reading the case is that Mr. Springer had income from his wages as a lawyer, and some interest income from his personal U.S. investment bonds (which the Court called “personalty”), and that he objected to the Civil War income tax because he believed it to be a direct tax on his property under the Constitution’s Direct Tax Clauses, which would’ve meant Congress could not collect the tax, only assess a liability against state governments, then let the states figure out how to come up with the money.

To fully understand the legal foundations of the Springer case, and why the income tax on Springer’s wages was considered to be a Constitutional indirect tax that didn’t need to be apportioned among the states, we not only have to look at Veazie Bank v. Fenno (1869), but also look back even further to Justice Joseph Story’s dissent in Briscoe v. Bank of Kentucky (1837), which is about time the Supreme Court under Andrew Jackson allowed state banking corporations to regain supremacy over the money supply, and when the Jackson administration refused to renew the federal corporate charter for the Second Bank of the United States (1816-1836).

If Congress was supposed to be in control of the country’s money supply, this, as Story believed, was one of the darkest periods in U.S. monetary history.

Then, regarding the Springer case, to make matters a little more complicated, we have to look forward to two events after Springer: (1) Pollock v. Farmers Loan (1895), which made the tax on Springer’s interest income unconstitutional, and then, (2) ratification of the 16th Amendment, which made the tax on Springer’s interest income Constitutional again.

Legal History
When the Civil War began, Lincoln and Treasury Secretary Chase needed to bring Congress’s full economic powers to bear, and so nationalized state banks under the National Banking Acts of 1863-4.

State banks that didn’t comply, who refused to nationalize, and wished to remain as note-issuing state banking corporations were heavily taxed on their note-issuance, and the tax was so high (10%) it was called a “death tax” because it was designed to put the banks out of the note-issuing business completely.

In Veazie Bank v. Fenno (1869) state banks complained, believing the tax to be an unconstitutional direct tax on their assets, or on their privilege. The Supreme Court disagreed, said the tax was indirect, and cited Congress’s supreme powers over the currency:

“Congress may restrain, by suitable enactments, the circulation as money of any notes not issued under its own authority. Without this power, indeed, its attempts to secure a sound and uniform currency for the country must be futile.”

However, the state banks that DID comply, were treated much differently. Congress made their notes legal tender, and good in payment of all taxes and debts ---“legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private”--- and also regulated the distribution of their notes with a special 10-year income tax. The income tax was not popular, fraud-ridden, and difficult to enforce, but it did provide a measure of stability, as evidenced by the numerous (and profitable) bank panics which ensued after the income tax ended in 1872. The panics continued after 1872 until the central banking era began with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

The Springer case involved a tax return filed by Mr. Springer for the 1865 tax season, within which Springer reported wage income and interest income. Springer’s argument, like in the Veazie Bank case, was that a tax on his wage and interest income was an unconstitutional direct tax on his property.

Much confusion surrounding the Springer case would have been avoided if the Springer Court mentioned the Veazie Bank case decided about a decade earlier, but it didn’t. The Court simply disagreed again, as it did in 1869, that the tax was direct on Springer’s property, and ruled the income tax to be an indirect tax under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1, and not in violation of the Direct Tax Clauses.

In 1894, to deal with bank instability, another income tax was attempted by a Congress which contained about 50 populist members, and also 6 pro-Georgist members who added a tax on landlord rental income to the income tax. If not for the efforts of these 6 Georgist Congressmen, the 1894 income tax would've likely been Constitutional and would've fallen completely on wage income (because the tax on interest and rental income would have remained unconstitutional).

Fortunately, the entire tax was ruled unconstitutional in Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan (1895) because the tax on a landowner’s rental income was considered to be a direct tax on the right to own land. In addition, said the Court, mentioning the prior Springer case, the interest income reported by Springer in his 1865 tax return was also likely a direct tax on Springer’s “personalty” (his U.S. savings bonds), thereby admitting that the Springer Court was perhaps a little hasty in ruling that both income items were taxable.

Another very important effect 6 Georgist Congressmen's effort is that it forced the Supreme Court to make an unprecedented, historic distinction in the Pollock case, distinguishing between income derived from property sources (like land) vs. income derived from non-property sources (like currency-regulation of non-Congress-issued-currencies mentioned in Veazie Bank).

Anyway, if we jump forward to ratification of the 16th Amendment, there’s no longer any question that we can tax income “from whatever source derived,” whether the income “is derived from” property sources (like the landlord rental income from Pollock) or from non-property sources (like the Springer income tax, and the corporate privilege income tax authorized in Flint v. Stone Tracy Co. (1911)).

However, the income tax levied in 1913, after ratification of the 16th Amendment, failed to mention that it was just another “Springer income tax” designed to support the new privately-issued Federal Reserve Note, instead of the old privately-issued national bank notes.

And regarding the historic distinction made in Pollock case 18 years earlier about income derived from property sourcess, any new income tax on land rents or capital-land gains was portrayed as an optional add-on tax, rather than as the revolutionary new Georgist income tax that it really was (and still is, although lying dormant and obscured).



Briscoe v. Bank of Kentucky (1837): [link to supreme.justia.com (secure)]

Veazie Bank v. Fenno (1869): [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Springer v. United States (1881): [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co, (1895): [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Flint v. Stone Tracy Co. (1911): [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

16th Amendment (1913): [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
Jknoph

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09/05/2015 02:43 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
To compliment the preceding post:

"The root cause of the confusion is the failure to specifically unwind the "income tax" into its primary pieces or the specific objects that are being taxed. Springer had two of these objects. The 16th amendment type taxes on income separated from property (rents) AND the tax on monies not issued by the Treasury. Later Congress added a third object into the income tax stew. The Corporate income tax, this one taxes the privilege of operating as a corporate entity measured by income. These are to this day still the primary income taxes. Congress starting with SSA has since added some secondary income taxes to the mix, but these rely on first one of the primary taxes to trigger the secondary tax. SoSo security, medicare, and O'Care all are triggered by first using monies not issued by the Treasury. Then if those monies are earned in specific way (employment) they trigger the secondary SSA/Med/O'care addition to the primary tax. The preceding applies ONLY for the wage earner. Employer taxes operate differently."
Anonymous Coward
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09/06/2015 05:59 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
after watching the "sovereign" gurus, the "strawman" gurus and the 'common law' gurus babble on about how to conduct ones business affairs and falling flat on their faces time after time, i come to this thread and breath free air!!

what a jumbled mess those gurus teach! bragging about being jailed, held in contempt, issuing hundreds of pages of legal BS that the administrators of the US Bankruptcy completely ignore! they do not even bother to read the papers because they are IMMUNE to the law when the DEFENDANT is an endorser of FEDERAL RESERVE DEBT!

take the time to read this thread, take the time! end the FED in your own affairs, end the presumption of being a DEBT peon, end your open endorsement of the fiat currency scam!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


The verdict is still not out yet. This could be a trap.
Anonymous Coward
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09/06/2015 08:12 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
after watching the "sovereign" gurus, the "strawman" gurus and the 'common law' gurus babble on about how to conduct ones business affairs and falling flat on their faces time after time, i come to this thread and breath free air!!

what a jumbled mess those gurus teach! bragging about being jailed, held in contempt, issuing hundreds of pages of legal BS that the administrators of the US Bankruptcy completely ignore! they do not even bother to read the papers because they are IMMUNE to the law when the DEFENDANT is an endorser of FEDERAL RESERVE DEBT!

take the time to read this thread, take the time! end the FED in your own affairs, end the presumption of being a DEBT peon, end your open endorsement of the fiat currency scam!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


The verdict is still not out yet. This could be a trap.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2720400


the verdict IS in, and it is not a trap. the proof is people are doing and have been doing it for over a decade, on the record, public information and the IRS has NEVER garnished a check, seized a bank account, collected a "frivolous filing" penalty, taken property, filed a notice of lien, filed a case NOTHING.

get over your fear or at least stop lying about things you know nothing about.
SteamrolledGobias

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09/13/2015 11:28 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
After reading through and searching this thread I can't help but notice there are no answers regarding digital transfers through PayPal.

How would one redeem lawful money when transferring from PP to a bank account, or transferring from the bank into PP?

PayPal offers transfer receipts but they're digital. Would someone just print that digital receipt & stamp it with 12 USC 411? That receipt is "mine" so it wouldn't be sent to the bank or to PayPal, so would that even be enough evidence?

Last Edited by SteamrolledGobias on 09/13/2015 11:29 AM
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2015 01:59 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
After reading through and searching this thread I can't help but notice there are no answers regarding digital transfers through PayPal.

How would one redeem lawful money when transferring from PP to a bank account, or transferring from the bank into PP?

PayPal offers transfer receipts but they're digital. Would someone just print that digital receipt & stamp it with 12 USC 411? That receipt is "mine" so it wouldn't be sent to the bank or to PayPal, so would that even be enough evidence?
 Quoting: SteamrolledGobias


you have not read the thread enough. your signature card at the bank is your proof of demand.

not all forms of 'credit' originate with the Federal Reserve. However, ALL your transactions should be backed by your demand for redemption and your refusal for Federal Reserve debt in any form, real or electronic.

in todays the vast majority of "currency" is debt in some form or another, even if not directly from the Federal Reserve/IMF, therefore, just get used to the concept that ALL your private or public affairs, contract, etc. need a demand for redemption and a refusal of Federal Reserve Notes.
SteamrolledGobias

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09/13/2015 02:44 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
After reading through and searching this thread I can't help but notice there are no answers regarding digital transfers through PayPal.

How would one redeem lawful money when transferring from PP to a bank account, or transferring from the bank into PP?

PayPal offers transfer receipts but they're digital. Would someone just print that digital receipt & stamp it with 12 USC 411? That receipt is "mine" so it wouldn't be sent to the bank or to PayPal, so would that even be enough evidence?
 Quoting: SteamrolledGobias


you have not read the thread enough. your signature card at the bank is your proof of demand.

not all forms of 'credit' originate with the Federal Reserve. However, ALL your transactions should be backed by your demand for redemption and your refusal for Federal Reserve debt in any form, real or electronic.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2091907


I know of the signature card and how that is proof of the demand.

What I'm asking is how to perform the bolded statement with a transfer from a non-bank entity(PayPal) to a bank account.

In PP when you transfer money there is nowhere to enter a custom "note" or restrictive endorsement. There's nowhere to enter the redemption clause tied to the transfer.

So I'm simply asking would the signature card be proof that ALL transactions in & out of the account represent lawful money? Similarly would the money in a PP account still be considered lawful money?