Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,523 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 509,362
Pageviews Today: 1,040,942Threads Today: 491Posts Today: 10,931
05:07 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1286518
Australia
03/06/2011 04:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it??

Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF??

HERE are my results.

I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life.

Now I realise that MOST people will not have the patience to read a long post like this...so the proof is in the first third of the post. But if still NOT convinced by then..then read the whole thing.

Most people will also let their BIAS get in the way....in this case..DONT..just read it with an open bible..and an open mind.

The pre trib rpature has taken YEARS to be woven...so it cannot be UNwoven in a simpple two paragraph post...so have some patience...because it IRREFUTABLY PROVES with NO DOUBT (IF you read it all and look it up for yurselves) that the rapture comes after the trib..NOT before.



=========================================================

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post)


#1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation,

and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

(side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


BUT..you can IGNORE all this proof and keep selling movies and books and making a FORTUNE..or spending one..on a PACK OF ILLUMINATI FALSE DOCTRINE!!

Your choice.
anonymous
User ID: 1003272
United States
03/06/2011 04:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I'm a christian and I agree. I think when people don't get raptured out, a lot of Christians will lose their faith.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 769657
United States
03/06/2011 04:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
The guts? I never believed that shit anyway.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1284279
Canada
03/06/2011 04:45 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
How can you call that proof. Because it was in a book??
Bugsy Moran

User ID: 1151054
United States
03/06/2011 04:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Where is the raptor tribbing?
olaf
User ID: 1286362
Netherlands
03/06/2011 04:52 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
stink places they even do not help someone in one go.
Sword0fGideon

User ID: 1286426
United States
03/06/2011 04:53 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
immediately after the great quake of the Lamb, while the sun is darkened for 3 days and the moon becomes blood but before the first horn a multitude is seen in heaven. these are the ones who are taken out of the great tribulation.

we are saved from the wrath of the Father, this begins with the first trumpet.

i asked some friends i have made on the net and ill ask you as well i guess about the sign of the Lord.

when Jesus was still in his mothers belly, john the baptist leaped in his mothers belly. so it is said

when Jesus died upon the cross there was an earth quake.

one of the signs we are given is increased earth quake activity.

there is a great quake of the Lamb, when the multitude appears in heaven.

when Jesus physically sets foot upon the earth, there a quake.

is the sign of Jesus a quake???

i think the rapture will happen when the sun is darkened, to my thinking its perfect timing. God does things in secret, never doing anything to persuade anyone in what to believe. if all the believers suddenly just disappeared it would be all to obvious what happened, but if the world is in utter fear and turmoil and a vast amount of people seem to vanish after a great quake and a darkness so internse it could be felt, many would assume they was either crushed under debris or had somehow wandered off and got lost or something.

oh well, only the Father trully knows but its interesting to speculate.
Christians have had to face and realize their own sins, and feel compelled to try and help others as well.

This chant of Holier than thou is wrong and is taught by others making you think what is cool or acceptable to them.

The thought of "believe as i do" is strongly in an unbelievers life, because they feel they will be ridiculed by their friends.

Every falsehood a unbeliver weilds, is merely a reflection of the obstacles that unbeliever must face from his very own peers.

Unbelievers are the true followers, they are dedicated to fear of what other people think of them.

And because of this, they are ashamed of themselves, but wall themselves up to feel comfortable and safe, assuring themselves with rationality and laughter.

Which is insanity!
oxxxxx§:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+>
olaf
User ID: 1286362
Netherlands
03/06/2011 04:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
and ofcourse you can keep yourself busy with a person for a long time when you don't do just the thing for others.

ofcourse as a country.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1286518
Australia
03/06/2011 04:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
How can you call that proof. Because it was in a book??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1284279


OK..lets be "Hypothetical" for a moment then..

Yes its a BOOK..a book which a LOT of people follow..its still a book though..you are right.

BUT..Hypothetically speaking..IF per say the book is 100% accurate...then the verses in the above post PROVE from the BOOK itself..WHEN the rapture will happen.

They dont teach those verses in church..they ignore tham..or twist them.

But going by what the book actually SAYS..with NO hidden meanings or conjeecture...just the actual words IN the book..its clear as a bell..SHOULD the book be TRUE..WHEN the rapture will happen.

If you believe it or not..does not matter. The BOOK says when it WILL BE...from what is written IN the book itself.

Most people who follow the book are not TAUGHT to read it...they are taught to read other mens interpretation of what they THINK it might mean..in such a way as to TRY TO FORECE it to mean something other than what it actually SAYS

Thus you have them making MILLIONS from the oh so comfy "Pre trib" doctrine.

Its just not IN there. But most of them wont even look...being too determined to hang onto what MEN have taught them.
CountryGirl

User ID: 1286539
United States
03/06/2011 04:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
OP

I agree with your post.
But i do wish you had not used the word 'rapture', because it sends the wrong message.

'Changed' would have been a better word to use.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Here in America - in GOD we still trust...
Be silent! Be patient! Be quiet!
Be Still! - And know that He is God.
oll af
User ID: 1286362
Netherlands
03/06/2011 05:10 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
dixicken

User ID: 1286554
United States
03/06/2011 05:14 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
How about the fact that Noah was on the ark for seven days before the waters came Gen.7:4 The door was closed and the wicked could not get a second chance to get on the boat so will it be in the last days like Noah's day There will be a close of probation when the wicked will no longer have a choice. Our protection will be here on earth while this is going on Isah.26:20 Come my people enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were for a little moment. Until the indignation is past.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1081433
United States
03/06/2011 05:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
IF you have the guts to read it.......


bsflagbsflagbsflag
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1286570
Australia
03/06/2011 05:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
IF you have the guts to read it.......


bsflagbsflagbsflag
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1081433


I take it you didnt have the guts then?

I agree with OP.

It does take some "Guts" to put personal doctrinal bias aside and be willing to read something the church does not want you to read.

It is difficult when you are raised with a certain mindset to believe something. And most believe the pre trib lie because they just accept what the books say or what the pastor says and they only write those books and preach those sernons because they in turn were taught it as "Accepted doctrine" without looking into it.

It flies in the face of the current church "Lets get out of here" doctrine and they dont like that..it really harms their book sales and keeps christians asleep..just sitting around thinking they are FINE and wont have to go through anything which breeds a kind of "Elitism"..we are gonna be saved and YOU are gonna burn therefore WE are more HOLIER than YOU..which leads to PRIDE and SLOTH and DICISIONS.

Exactly what satan AIMS for..and has succeeded in doing.

So it DOES take GUTS to go against the FLOW..the BROAD way that leads to destruction.
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 05:52 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Excellent post Op.

I was into all the pre-trib. stuff, too. Even went to Israel with Hal Lindsey.

You have crossed a Rubicon of sorts, pointing out that most modern, American Christians believe what they do because they were taught it; clinging to it with out having done their own research.

NOW, if you can be true to your own maxim and are ready to see how deep the rabbit hole really goes... study C.S. Scofield and just who really wrote the Scofield study Bible.

I'll give you a hint. The man who hired, housed, and supplied the material for him was Samual Untermyer.

Be careful. Any real research into the matter quickly unveils the children of the serpent and just who really controls the world. (same guys Jesus pointed out in His day).

This info will quickly put you at odds with the likes of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, John Hagee, Dallas Theological Seminary, et al.

Happy hunting and the may the truth set us all free.
BW

User ID: 1281889
Australia
03/06/2011 05:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I have over 30 years of pretrib rapture teaching.Even in light of that,I don't believe it is the correct interpretation of scripture. I have come to my own personal conclusion that the church is here during the opening of the seals. I also think Jesus is in the process of opening them already..and we are in the time of seal four.

It's time to get real sober and search our hearts..would we be prepared to die for the faith we profess.I think about it all the time now.
I get the impression that there are many: lip service Christians(especially in the West)and they tend to be pretrib rapture believers.Hopefully the shocking days ahead will see some really turn to Christ.The genuine followers of Christ Jesus who believe the pretrib teaching to be the correct interpretation of scripture..they will be ok no matter which way it all goes.
I am standing for my convictions just as you are standing for yours. So no need for either of us to take offense.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1254895
United States
03/06/2011 06:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I'll admit I didn't read your study/examples to piece together why we aren't facing "the end of days" but I have read another I found on an old post - a website link with information describing Scoffields early 1900s literary works that explained why the organized churchs want you to believe that Revelations is a story aimed at our generation, or the generation following, or the one following that and so forth. While this particular website was aimed at a Jew-based motive, I will say that I believe you have come to the same conclusion that he did, whether or not you believe the underlying reasons - the book of Revelations described the events to take place in the time of Christs coming and ressurection.

So from here, I don't know how many people would agree with me, but I have to say "God has left the building." and we are now just living our lives, barely hanging on by threads to keep this world from collapsing into chaos. I agree and believe many christians will be disappointed when no savior comes to their aid, for they/he/it no longer care about us, and have moved on to more important things than the ridiculous struggles that mankind face.

As a race, we are lost until the day we can see past differences in wealth, culture, or color and embrace each other as humans - nothing more, and nothing less.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1256981
United States
03/06/2011 06:06 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Raptured = Captured
 Quoting: Chip


TRAPTURED!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1266868
United States
03/06/2011 06:09 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Explain Christ's message here please.

7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1256981
United States
03/06/2011 06:13 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I have over 30 years of pretrib rapture teaching.Even in light of that,I don't believe it is the correct interpretation of scripture. I have come to my own personal conclusion that the church is here during the opening of the seals. I also think Jesus is in the process of opening them already..and we are in the time of seal four.

It's time to get real sober and search our hearts..would we be prepared to die for the faith we profess.I think about it all the time now.
I get the impression that there are many: lip service Christians(especially in the West)and they tend to be pretrib rapture believers.Hopefully the shocking days ahead will see some really turn to Christ.The genuine followers of Christ Jesus who believe the pretrib teaching to be the correct interpretation of scripture..they will be ok no matter which way it all goes.
 Quoting: BW


As soon as the last one of the 144,000 is aborted, (completing the number of souls that cry out from under the altar - fifth seal), then Jesus will return! These are the firstfruits...."lump"....Blameless before God, murdered for the testimony they "held"....DNA....they never had a chance to speak a vile word...THEY WERE ABORTED! Virgins, well duh...THEY WERE MURDERED BEFORE BIRTH!

They are with the Lord WHEREVER He goes! No adult man, from ANY time can fit these qualifications! Study them, pray about it. God showed me this in a dream.

The 144,000 are the "remant" from our time...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1279576
United States
03/06/2011 06:13 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Jesus said Pray that you escape all these things. Why tell us to pray if there was no escape??

So he tells his bride to "wait here and get beat up and then I will come get you" I dont think so.
DoctorLexus

User ID: 1032222
United States
03/06/2011 06:14 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
How can you call that proof. Because it was in a book??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1284279


NO! Because it was on a blog somewheres!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1159929
United States
03/06/2011 06:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I'm a christian and I agree. I think when people don't get raptured out, a lot of Christians will lose their faith.
 Quoting: anonymous 1003272


I have to agree with this statement. I'm a Mormon, and we don't have a doctrinal beleif in a pre-tribulation rapture. The 'elect' will be taken at Christ's return. This is probably the biggest disagreement my non-Mormon friends and I have had regarding religion.

Some of the prophecies of Mormon leaders regarding the 'last days' and the horrors we will see include scenes of absolute evil and depravity - such as people killing each other in totally horrid and abominable fashion simply for the love of doing so. They will 'get off' on it. When I was younger I didn't understand how people could be so evil and vicious. Then I figured it out.

If you take millions of people who, having not been 'raptured', beleive that either they have been forsaken by God or worse - that their faith in God was misplaced entirely - having that sort of life-long issue come to a head as a total falsehood could lead people to become absolute evil. "So there is no God!! I will do as I want! I will do absolute evil since there is no good!" All this made worse by the new-found beleif in...nothing.

That's my take anyway.
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 06:22 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
I'll admit I didn't read your study/examples to piece together why we aren't facing "the end of days" but I have read another I found on an old post - a website link with information describing Scoffields early 1900s literary works that explained why the organized churchs want you to believe that Revelations is a story aimed at our generation, or the generation following, or the one following that and so forth. While this particular website was aimed at a Jew-based motive, I will say that I believe you have come to the same conclusion that he did, whether or not you believe the underlying reasons - the book of Revelations described the events to take place in the time of Christs coming and ressurection.

So from here, I don't know how many people would agree with me, but I have to say "God has left the building." and we are now just living our lives, barely hanging on by threads to keep this world from collapsing into chaos. I agree and believe many christians will be disappointed when no savior comes to their aid, for they/he/it no longer care about us, and have moved on to more important things than the ridiculous struggles that mankind face.

As a race, we are lost until the day we can see past differences in wealth, culture, or color and embrace each other as humans - nothing more, and nothing less.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1254895


I agree to a point. However, I do not believe God has left the building.

Christ's revelation to John was of things past, present and future. There are obviously (?) things there that refer to the final end of the this world and it's 'rebuilding'. (New Heavens and Earth).

All the Pre-trib. stuff will serve to help decimate modern, American (prosperity driven) Christianity. I have friends who are totally unprepared to survive any kind of disaster, natural or otherwise, and will see such 'tribulation' as a failure of all they believe in. Their come-back is always "We don't have to worry about that - we'll be raptured. Praise the Lord"

P.S. - Don't confuse the practically meaningless term "Jew". There are basically two flavors: Reform (Rabbinical Talmud-ist) Jew and Orthodox (Torah)Jew. 95% of those that call themselves Jews (but are not) are Reform (Ie. zionist / modern Israel). Read Prof. Schlomo Sands book "Inventing the Jewish People". (He's a tenured professor at the U. of Jerusalem)

P.S.S.

The great whore who rides the beast is Rabbinical Talmudism and it's control of international banking, media, etc. rant
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1286570
Australia
03/06/2011 06:24 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Explain Christ's message here please.

7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1266868


My take on that os the "Hour of temptation" means being directly FACED with "Take the mark or die" temptation...after being tortured of course.

These ones who have KEPT to the word..and have not gone off after "Strange UNbiblical docrines..like the PRE trib one..wont have to face this direct "Temtation" to deny Jesus because all along the stuck to the PURE word already..and have already faced DOWN that tepmtation to stay true or not despite opposition.

These ones will be led into the wilderness..to close the door behind them..as the indignation PASSES OVER them...they will be protected in the wilderness...looked after and fed by the Lord..as he said he would do to the REMNANT of his true children.

It will be TOUGH..there will be darkness and quakes and terrible sights..but they wont have to FACE the TEST..having already faced it and passed.

But those who sit around and think they dont HAVE to stick to the truth..or prepare..and just happy clap their way through life thinking they will NEVER know pain..THESE ones..the lukewarm "Bless me club" christitans..WILL STILL BE IN THE CITIES when it all comes down on their head..and THEN..still REELING from the shock of STILL BEING here..will face the GREATEST temptation...hold onto Jesus..despite the fact all they were taught was WQRONG..or throw it all away in the face of torture and certain DEATH..


The true ones who KNOW the truth and have LEFT the false illuminati churches..are NOW GETTING PREPARED for an extended stay in the wilderness...and they WONT have to face that choice...the temptation to deny christ...because they already FACED it..gaining MUCH ridicule from their own "Supposed" brethren for daring to speak the TRUTH like OP has done so well.
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 06:25 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Explain Christ's message here please.

7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1266868


To be kept from the hour of temptation does not mean raptured out of this world.

Earlier post mentions the ark and flood. Noah had to live right here through the whole thing. He was given a tool to survive.

What tool has God been showing you to use?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1256981
United States
03/06/2011 06:28 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Explain Christ's message here please.

7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1266868


To be kept from the hour of temptation does not mean raptured out of this world.

Earlier post mentions the ark and flood. Noah had to live right here through the whole thing. He was given a tool to survive.

What tool has God been showing you to use?
 Quoting: WaitOne 1286591


Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 06:28 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Don't totally agree with all that is on it...

But interesting...

www.skipbaker.com
Majestic

User ID: 1283085
United States
03/06/2011 06:29 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
OP

I agree with your post.
But i do wish you had not used the word 'rapture', because it sends the wrong message.

'Changed' would have been a better word to use.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 Quoting: CountryGirl

Actually I think it is good and accurate to use the word rapture. The rapture is a Biblical concept, and it is something that will happen.

However, the point where most people are confused (i.e. deceived) is on when this happens. The scriptures are very clear that the rapture (harpozo) happens on the very last day of this world; the day of the return of the Lord.

The false teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture makes no sense and nothing close to it is found anywhere in scripture. What is taught is that "those who are alive and remain" at the return of the Lord will be "caught up" to be with Him. Again, this is a rapture, but it happens after the tribulation, at the "final trump", on the last day of this world.

I believe using the word rapture helps those stuck in the lie understand how the scriptures have been twisted to deceive them. I say use the term rapture!
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 06:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Excellent!

You can prepare physically all you want, but, the peace of God is the MOST important starting point.

May His Spirit wrap you in wisdom, knowledge, understanding and true peace that passes comprehension.
WaitOne
User ID: 1286591
United States
03/06/2011 06:34 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: THERE WILL BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE..here is why..IF you have the guts to read it.
Hey Op -

Hope you don't mind, but I copied your initial post to share with friends. Know it's not trademarked, but you did some nice work and wanted to say thanks,





GLP