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Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........

 
Adam
User ID: 1324434
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04/03/2011 11:26 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree we should all investigate. My point is that our knowledge is not the gauge on our salvation, but only the work of Christ. We don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished. If we were required to have hidden knowledge or do certain works then the whole Gospel Message is pointless. The good news is that Christ fulfilled the all of requirements of the law. That is what Paul's message was in his letters to the Romans and Galations. Paul also gave some advice and counsel on how to live now knowing the truth of the Gospel of Christ. I don't believe there are any contradictions at all. Apparent contradictions require further study, but this is not a salvation issue. What are your top 3 issues with Paul's letters against Christ's teachings? I'm not interested in the conversion story for this point. Only why do you think they preach different messages?
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
Eridu
User ID: 1093082
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04/03/2011 11:32 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
OP, have you ever read any of the Phoenix Journals? You may be interested in reading the truth of what really happened back then and I don't think you're too far off base!

Paul/Saul became confused after the encounter with Jmmanuel (Jesus) on the road to Damascus and created his own theology about the life and teachings of Jmmanuel which we read today in the N.T.

Eridu
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1324434
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04/03/2011 11:36 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
OP, have you ever read any of the Phoenix Journals? You may be interested in reading the truth of what really happened back then and I don't think you're too far off base!

Paul/Saul became confused after the encounter with Jmmanuel (Jesus) on the road to Damascus and created his own theology about the life and teachings of Jmmanuel which we read today in the N.T.

Eridu
 Quoting: Eridu 1093082


You have another religion. I choose no religion.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1290296
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04/03/2011 11:39 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Paul (Saul, who is called, not named, Paul) is the only apostle whose tribal identity is revealed, and it is he who reveals it -- twice -- the number for a confirmed witness.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

There is a reason for this and it relates the archetypal role of Benjamin, the role of O.T. Saul who also was of Benjamin.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1277029
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04/03/2011 11:39 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree we should all investigate. My point is that our knowledge is not the gauge on our salvation, but only the work of Christ. We don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished. If we were required to have hidden knowledge or do certain works then the whole Gospel Message is pointless. The good news is that Christ fulfilled the all of requirements of the law. That is what Paul's message was in his letters to the Romans and Galations. Paul also gave some advice and counsel on how to live now knowing the truth of the Gospel of Christ. I don't believe there are any contradictions at all. Apparent contradictions require further study, but this is not a salvation issue. What are your top 3 issues with Paul's letters against Christ's teachings? I'm not interested in the conversion story for this point. Only why do you think they preach different messages?
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1290296
United States
04/03/2011 11:42 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Paul (Saul, who is called, not named, Paul) is the only apostle whose tribal identity is revealed, and it is he who reveals it -- twice -- the number for a confirmed witness.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

There is a reason for this and it relates the archetypal role of Benjamin, the role of O.T. Saul who also was of Benjamin.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1277029
United States
04/03/2011 11:42 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree we should all investigate. My point is that our knowledge is not the gauge on our salvation, but only the work of Christ. We don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished. If we were required to have hidden knowledge or do certain works then the whole Gospel Message is pointless. The good news is that Christ fulfilled the all of requirements of the law. That is what Paul's message was in his letters to the Romans and Galations. Paul also gave some advice and counsel on how to live now knowing the truth of the Gospel of Christ. I don't believe there are any contradictions at all. Apparent contradictions require further study, but this is not a salvation issue. What are your top 3 issues with Paul's letters against Christ's teachings? I'm not interested in the conversion story for this point. Only why do you think they preach different messages?
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


And, y'know I gotta call 'bullshit' here.

Because anyone who actually uses critical thinking here and questions the authority of the source that 'by fiat' decrees the will of god is threatened.... usually given the same threats of consequences for not believeing.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1324434
United States
04/03/2011 11:43 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree we should all investigate. My point is that our knowledge is not the gauge on our salvation, but only the work of Christ. We don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished. If we were required to have hidden knowledge or do certain works then the whole Gospel Message is pointless. The good news is that Christ fulfilled the all of requirements of the law. That is what Paul's message was in his letters to the Romans and Galations. Paul also gave some advice and counsel on how to live now knowing the truth of the Gospel of Christ. I don't believe there are any contradictions at all. Apparent contradictions require further study, but this is not a salvation issue. What are your top 3 issues with Paul's letters against Christ's teachings? I'm not interested in the conversion story for this point. Only why do you think they preach different messages?
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


Those were the words of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. You may choose not to accept that he said them, but the good news is that Christ has already done the work regardless of what you know to be true or not. We are not saved by our knowledge or understanding. That is the message of the new testament. It frees you from religion.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1277029
United States
04/03/2011 11:45 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
...


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


And, y'know I gotta call 'bullshit' here.

Because anyone who actually uses critical thinking here and questions the authority of the source that 'by fiat' decrees the will of god is threatened.... usually given the same threats of consequences for not believeing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


i would imagine most christians would threaten any question with cowards damnation, or simply tell you that god never intended for you to think about those types of details, just have faith.... and take up arms for christ.

after all, considering the minds of kings, acquiring an army that has a common controlled ideology is much cheaper than mercenaries.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1279119
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04/03/2011 11:47 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
...


Well the one thing is right there in your sentence, 'we don't need to do anything because it is already accomplished.' This is the difference right here... Paul said Christ did it all and we only need to have faith and do nothing. That is the problem right there. Jesus did not say we merely need faith, he said we have to do many things and do good and give away our money and care for each other. Paul said, nope just chillax, do nothing and if you believe you will be saved....... wrong, you gotta do good things and be a good person, meek, like the beatitudes. Its just a simple thing.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Its not just Paul's writings, the main point is the conversion story, its fake. And anything he says has no credibility to me because he appointed HIMSELF an apostle in the story in acts. Acts has two distinct voices, one is akin to Luke and another is definitely out of place within the context of the rest and could have only been placed there by either Paul himself or one of his followers.
 Quoting: VivianV


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


Those were the words of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. You may choose not to accept that he said them, but the good news is that Christ has already done the work regardless of what you know to be true or not. We are not saved by our knowledge or understanding. That is the message of the new testament. It frees you from religion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324434


interesting. i could go with that.
TheHungerSite.com

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04/03/2011 11:54 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
2 Samuel 23:
1Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.


2 Timothy 3:
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Luke 1:
70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:





Acts 3:
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.



Jeremiah 23:
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Proverbs 28:27 KJV
He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse.
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VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 11:55 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Those were the words of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. You may choose not to accept that he said them, but the good news is that Christ has already done the work regardless of what you know to be true or not. We are not saved by our knowledge or understanding. That is the message of the new testament. It frees you from religion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324434


Good if he said them, but the work is being good to one another, having compassion, not caring about material possessions/money, caring for the poor, helping the sick, that is the work. Jesus isn't here to do that darlin, that's our jobs, thats what he told us in the Beatitudes. . .
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.
Adam
User ID: 1324434
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04/03/2011 11:57 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
...


Perhaps you're forgetting the most quoted verse of the bible? The words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Perfect alignment with Paul's message.

Christ was speaking of himself in the beatitudes. Christ is the blessed One. Christ was required to fulfill all that God required and he did! That is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


again, this doesnt hold water.

How does whoever wrote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have eternal life." etc etc actually KNOW that? Who wrote it?

How can somebody actually document and represent the feelings or the intents of god?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1277029


Those were the words of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. You may choose not to accept that he said them, but the good news is that Christ has already done the work regardless of what you know to be true or not. We are not saved by our knowledge or understanding. That is the message of the new testament. It frees you from religion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324434


interesting. i could go with that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1279119


BTW. I meant those are the words of Jesus written in John. The beatitudes were from Matthew 5. Just an error correction.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 11:58 AM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
2 Samuel 23:
1Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.


2 Timothy 3:
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Luke 1:
70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:





Acts 3:
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.



Jeremiah 23:
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
 Quoting: TheHungerSite.com




blah blah blah. wall of text with phantom authority.

stopped reading at '2'
Adam
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04/03/2011 12:05 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Those were the words of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. You may choose not to accept that he said them, but the good news is that Christ has already done the work regardless of what you know to be true or not. We are not saved by our knowledge or understanding. That is the message of the new testament. It frees you from religion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324434


Good if he said them, but the work is being good to one another, having compassion, not caring about material possessions/money, caring for the poor, helping the sick, that is the work. Jesus isn't here to do that darlin, that's our jobs, thats what he told us in the Beatitudes. . .
 Quoting: VivianV


I agree that we should do those works, but the problem as you and I both know, is that we all don't do good works all of the time. We do things that we know hurt others and we all act out fear and selfish interests. If we could do the works required for salvation then we wouldn't need a Saviour. In order to obtain salvation our own would require perfect obedience all of the time (see James 2). This is where Paul is useful because he explains this in great detail in Romans 6-8.

We should do, but we can't perform which is why the gospel truly is good news. It's been attained already through Jesus Christ.
VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 12:11 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
2 Samuel 23:
1Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.


2 Timothy 3:
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Luke 1:
70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:





Acts 3:
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.




Jeremiah 23:
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
 Quoting: TheHungerSite.com


How does this prove anything? You quoted 2 Timothy which is Paul or one of his followers, so invalid and a snippet from Acts, which is anyone's guess as to why you're using this to prove you follow Jesus rather than Paul. Jeremiah and Samuel are good but they don't make the case for you following Jesus over Paul. Prove to me that you don't follow Paul's words over Jesus' words. A few pages ahead there is a list of all the books written by Paul or added by his followers, so look at those, come back to me with some facts to back up your belief in Jesus rather than quoting Paul and I'll give you a reward :::::

afro
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.
VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 12:15 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree that we should do those works, but the problem as you and I both know, is that we all don't do good works all of the time. We do things that we know hurt others and we all act out fear and selfish interests. If we could do the works required for salvation then we wouldn't need a Saviour. In order to obtain salvation our own would require perfect obedience all of the time (see James 2). This is where Paul is useful because he explains this in great detail in Romans 6-8.

We should do, but we can't perform which is why the gospel truly is good news. It's been attained already through Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


You can do good all the time, and you don't need Paul to tell you otherwise. Its not that hard to be nice, kind, grateful, meek, compassionate, and caring.

Ok, so you're following Paul and not Jesus, thats all. You have attained nothing through Jesus other than missing out on his words, his teachings. Paul describes things pretty differently than Jesus if you get down deep in the crevices. There are too many discrepancies occurring here for you to say you follow Jesus. Just say "I follow the words of Paul" and I'll believe you.
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 12:18 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Why do Christians follow a testament written mostly by a man who NEVER met Jesus.....?
 Quoting: VivianV


Scripture indicates that Paul did meet Jesus. Lets assume they are falsified;

Did Moses meet Jesus?
Did Abraham meet Jesus?
Did David meet Jesus?
Did The Prophets meet Jesus?

We know the answers to this. We do not discard the words of those saints.

Let The Holy Spirit confirm scripture as truth or deception.
The Holy Spirit confirms to me that the writings of Paul are inspired of God. Other disagree. I am not very good at convincing others. But I am certain the Holy Spirit is.

peace,
torahemily

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04/03/2011 12:20 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I Timothy 3:16
FYI the "Scripture" that Paul is referring to is what we call the "Old Testement". There was no "New Testement". The NT was compiled aroud 325 ACE with the Council of Nicea. The "Scripture" being The Torah, The Prophets and The Writings.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 12:22 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Why do Christians follow a testament written mostly by a man who NEVER met Jesus.....?

Paul was not a disciple, he was a self-appointed apostle who never met Jesus, yet 13 out of 27 books of the New Testament were written by him.

Did God want you to follow this man instead of Jesus' words??

He is a trickster and is why most of you christians are still really confused. All the quotes you give me as rebuttals are Paulian not Christian.

You better have some good points to make on here, because if you quote Paul, it is invalid, so do some research and don't quote that charlatan to me.

He called himself an apostle in HIS OWN WRITINGS>>>>wiki wiki

In his writings, Paul, though not one of the original twelve, described himself as an apostle, one "born out of time" (e.g., Romans 1:1 and other letters). However, he was not called or appointed "apostle" by the resurrected Jesus himself during his Road to Damascus vision.[Acts 9:1-9] Rather, with Barnabas, he was allotted this role in the church.[Acts 13:2] He referred to himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles.[Rom 11:13] [Gal 2:8] He also described some of his companions as being called of the Lord as apostles (Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Andronicus and Junia). As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called 'Apostle'"; thus extending the original sense beyond the twelve. Since Paul claimed to have received the gospel through a revelation of Jesus Christ[22] after the latter's death and resurrection (rather than before like the twelve), he was often obliged to defend his apostolic authority (1 Cor. 9:1 "Am I not an apostle?") and proclaim that he had seen and was anointed by Jesus while on the road to Damascus; but James, Peter and John in Jerusalem accepted his calling to the apostleship from the Lord to the Gentiles (specifically those not circumcised) as of equal authority as Peter's to the Jews (specifically those circumcised) according to Paul.[Gal 2:7-9] "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars … agreed that we [Paul and Barnabas] should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews."[Gal 2:9] Paul, despite his divine calling as an apostle, considered himself perhaps inferior to the other Apostles because he had originally persecuted Christ's followers.[1 Cor. 15:9]

The original 12 :::::

Simon Peter.
Andrew his brother.
James son of Zebedee.
John his brother.

Philip.
Bartholomew.
Thomas.
Matthew.

James son of Alphaeus.
Thaddeus.
Simon the Cananean.
Judas Iscariot.


Now what? Will you change your names to Paulian instead now please and stop giving Jesus a bad and closed-minded name...???????
 Quoting: VivianV




I fully support your thesis and would add to it that Paul also wrote under Saul and some believe he is also Jospehus.

The story goes that Saul wanted to enter into the Church of the Nazarene. But those who were heading the church at the time didn't really like him or consider him to be the type that would enter the priesthood. The church of the Nazarene were Cosmological in nature and followers of the old Egyptian ways of reading the skies.

He later learned of the life of Jesus, and there was a great deal of stories of the life of Christ during his life but not many authors capable of composing a document such as the bible. Josephus just happens to be one who is capable of developing such a document.

His reasons for doing this are probably never going to be clear, but it definitely effects large portions of the testament in the books of the bible.

Some say the story in the dead seas scrolls about the dark wizard could actually be intending to be speaking of Paul.

Something to chew on......
VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 12:25 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Why do Christians follow a testament written mostly by a man who NEVER met Jesus.....?
 Quoting: VivianV


Scripture indicates that Paul did meet Jesus. Lets assume they are falsified;

Did Moses meet Jesus?
Did Abraham meet Jesus?
Did David meet Jesus?
Did The Prophets meet Jesus?

We know the answers to this. We do not discard the words of those saints.

Let The Holy Spirit confirm scripture as truth or deception.
The Holy Spirit confirms to me that the writings of Paul are inspired of God. Other disagree. I am not very good at convincing others. But I am certain the Holy Spirit is.

peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Do Jews call themselves Mosesians or Abrahamians of Davidians? No, you all call yourselves Christians yet when it comes down to it are all following the words of Paul. Its semantics. Paul was no saint nor a prophet, and if you knew true history rather just listening to the man from the pulpit then you would understand. I know it's hard, but if you can really examine things for yourself, a lot might change for you all, in a good way! I'm not saying all christians are bad/evil whatever, but they are being misled and that is why i posted you are Paulian. The holy spirit is inside of us and all around us. I will not discard the Old Testament, never said I would, just the BOOKS THAT WERE WRITTEN BY PAUL. Did you read any of the previous thread, or just react and post this without seeing what was said????
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.
VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 12:26 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Why do Christians follow a testament written mostly by a man who NEVER met Jesus.....?
 Quoting: VivianV


Scripture indicates that Paul did meet Jesus. Lets assume they are falsified;

Did Moses meet Jesus?
Did Abraham meet Jesus?
Did David meet Jesus?
Did The Prophets meet Jesus?

We know the answers to this. We do not discard the words of those saints.

Let The Holy Spirit confirm scripture as truth or deception.
The Holy Spirit confirms to me that the writings of Paul are inspired of God. Other disagree. I am not very good at convincing others. But I am certain the Holy Spirit is.

peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


WHAT??? Paul did not PHYSICALLY MEET Jesus EVER! It was after Jesus was DEAD, read and reread then come back. You are wrong.
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 12:31 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Paul wasn't self-appointed, Jesus chose him. This is recorded in the bible.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1326094


Right, Jesus did choose him, just like he chose me to tell you you're following the wrong guy. You're a Paulian, not a Christian.
 Quoting: VivianV


Paul had epilepsy. In such fit he thought he had seen Jesus, and then went to create a religion of his own. Epilepsy is called St Pauls disese because of it.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
They don't follow paul at all

Paul said;

"dont't be a minister of the letter (literal), for the letter killeth, but the spirit (spiritual understanding), giveth life"

"be ye therefore transformed by the renewing of your minds"


[link to thehiddenlighthouse.blogspot.com]



nw
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 12:34 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Why do Christians follow a testament written mostly by a man who NEVER met Jesus.....?
 Quoting: VivianV


Scripture indicates that Paul did meet Jesus. Lets assume they are falsified;

Did Moses meet Jesus?
Did Abraham meet Jesus?
Did David meet Jesus?
Did The Prophets meet Jesus?

We know the answers to this. We do not discard the words of those saints.

Let The Holy Spirit confirm scripture as truth or deception.
The Holy Spirit confirms to me that the writings of Paul are inspired of God. Other disagree. I am not very good at convincing others. But I am certain the Holy Spirit is.

peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


WHAT??? Paul did not PHYSICALLY MEET Jesus EVER! It was after Jesus was DEAD, read and reread then come back. You are wrong.
 Quoting: VivianV


My opinion is not important. Yours is. What each of us believes is what each of us carries in our vessel. We can each take a sip of the others cup and decide if it is sweet or bitter to our taste.

I am acquainted with the Damascus encounter. I am also acquainted with the story of how Paul's site was restored. As I said, I am not one to convince another. The story is there for everyone to read and to pray and to meditate and to ask The Father about. I simply share my views as do you.

I wish you well neighbor.

peace,
Adam
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04/03/2011 12:35 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
I agree that we should do those works, but the problem as you and I both know, is that we all don't do good works all of the time. We do things that we know hurt others and we all act out fear and selfish interests. If we could do the works required for salvation then we wouldn't need a Saviour. In order to obtain salvation our own would require perfect obedience all of the time (see James 2). This is where Paul is useful because he explains this in great detail in Romans 6-8.

We should do, but we can't perform which is why the gospel truly is good news. It's been attained already through Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


You can do good all the time, and you don't need Paul to tell you otherwise. Its not that hard to be nice, kind, grateful, meek, compassionate, and caring.

Ok, so you're following Paul and not Jesus, thats all. You have attained nothing through Jesus other than missing out on his words, his teachings. Paul describes things pretty differently than Jesus if you get down deep in the crevices. There are too many discrepancies occurring here for you to say you follow Jesus. Just say "I follow the words of Paul" and I'll believe you.
 Quoting: VivianV


You have not proved your point. You cannot just decide that you are right. You are saying you can obtain salvation on your own merit through your good works. Do you ever do evil works? Are you perfect? The good news is your fate is not dependent on you but on God, and that work is accomplished. The sole reason Jesus came to this earth and willfully sacrifice himself was because we are unable on our own to achieve that perfection. Why did Jesus willfully die if you are able to obtain God-hood on your own? I understand why it is hard for people to agree with Christianity because it has been twisted to become just another form of religious slavery. I am saying that the message of the bible in the new testament is that we are from that slavery in which you choose to live. Good news!
Paid Government Shill

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04/03/2011 12:37 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Paul wasn't self-appointed, Jesus chose him. This is recorded in the bible.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1326094


LOL, according to who? That's right! Paul! ROFL Let's just take Paul's word for it right?
AlasBabylon

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04/03/2011 12:38 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
.



When the New Testament refers to the "holy scripture",
it refers to the Old Testament.

Yet most Christians today have replaced the holy scripture
with letters written by Christ's disciples... disciples who
never intended for their letters to replace the law and the
prophets [holy scripture.]




.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2011 12:41 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
Paul wasn't self-appointed, Jesus chose him. This is recorded in the bible.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
-- Acts 9:15

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1326094


LOL, you forgot to mention Paul gives 3 totally different accounts of his conversion. (Quoting Dionysus in the 3rd)
VivianV  (OP)

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04/03/2011 12:43 PM
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Re: Christians should be called Paulians instead, because most follow Paul not Jesus........
You have not proved your point. You cannot just decide that you are right. You are saying you can obtain salvation on your own merit through your good works. Do you ever do evil works? Are you perfect? The good news is your fate is not dependent on you but on God, and that work is accomplished. The sole reason Jesus came to this earth and willfully sacrifice himself was because we are unable on our own to achieve that perfection. Why did Jesus willfully die if you are able to obtain God-hood on your own? I understand why it is hard for people to agree with Christianity because it has been twisted to become just another form of religious slavery. I am saying that the message of the bible in the new testament is that we are from that slavery in which you choose to live. Good news!
 Quoting: Adam 1324434


I understand what you mean, he died on the cross and his blood washed our sins away, right??? So, I'm saying thats fine, but just don't put Paul as the main source of your beliefs or you're not following Jesus. Jesus' words and actions are the true meaning of christianity, not Paul. Even though Paul literally did invent Christianity as we know it today, and that IS all I'm trying to say.....
Life without learning is like a flower without scent.





GLP