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Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 06:09 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Again, why are you lying? I already told you it reaches perigee on October 16th, not September 11th, why do you persist in lying?
 Quoting: Astronut

I suspect Terral is your alternate username and this exchange is to give "Astronut" much needed credibility.

Your Astronut username a well known shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1355192


So in your world, "shill" means accurate and correct?
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 06:15 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Hey Astronut...Where are your pictures of Elenin? since you so clearly know where it is.

I caught your show of Saturn the other night on ustream. I gotta say I was extremely unimpressed. I expected at least a decent image from someone who spouts off the way you do...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1243121


You watched my last show did you? Then you're fully aware I was testing a new remote broadcast setup and was streaming over a cell network which reduced the quality. The seeing was quite poor that night, but that was not the reason why I was broadcasting. As a matter of fact it was a technical test to prepare for broadcasting Elenin. Perhaps your expectations for a technical run through were unrealistic. Let's see you get an image of Saturn better than this:
[link to farm6.static.flickr.com]
That's a stacked image in poor seeing, but like I said, seeing conditions were not a consideration that night. Of course when I was broadcasting over the cell network the quality was dramatically degraded:
[link to www.ustream.tv]
But when I went back to the regular land line network it improved:
[link to www.ustream.tv]
If you want to spout off to me, let's see you do better than that.
 Quoting: Astronut


I watched and understood that testing was taking place.
I thought it was cool you'd allow people to peek in on testing sessions and I hope you continue.
Aquarius58

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04/26/2011 08:20 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
follow the link to go directly to the JPL horizons website, enter a date close to the time of interest (September for example) and then let their huge expensive computers crunch the numbers (free of charge!)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309387


What link?

Now we are getting somewhere. Look, I am new to this sight. Came here from a link, because I felt the Sun was acting odd.

Thread: Did the Sun seem extra bright today to anybody else?

I'm not attacking anybody, but engaging in discussions to help me find my answer. All this talk of comets, asteroids, planets, dwarfs, etc. is amusing at best.

In 1980 I took Astronomy 101 in college. Got an "A". Received a 97 on the final. Missed a simple term for 3 points. :)

I had access to the keys of the schools 16" telescope. Yep, located and viewed M13 my first attempt at 3AM. (easy find) Those were the days...

[link to news.mst.edu]

I have since then left the stars and went into sales. Not sure if that helped me any - lol. So, alas, fanfare for the common man.
"The Physical World is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty"

[link to nemesis8.com (secure)]
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 08:43 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
follow the link to go directly to the JPL horizons website, enter a date close to the time of interest (September for example) and then let their huge expensive computers crunch the numbers (free of charge!)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309387


What link?

Now we are getting somewhere. Look, I am new to this sight. Came here from a link, because I felt the Sun was acting odd.

Thread: Did the Sun seem extra bright today to anybody else?

I'm not attacking anybody, but engaging in discussions to help me find my answer. All this talk of comets, asteroids, planets, dwarfs, etc. is amusing at best.

In 1980 I took Astronomy 101 in college. Got an "A". Received a 97 on the final. Missed a simple term for 3 points. :)

I had access to the keys of the schools 16" telescope. Yep, located and viewed M13 my first attempt at 3AM. (easy find) Those were the days...

[link to news.mst.edu]

I have since then left the stars and went into sales. Not sure if that helped me any - lol. So, alas, fanfare for the common man.
 Quoting: Aquarius58

^^ sh1llb0t.
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 09:02 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
[link to ssd.jpl.nasa.gov]
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 09:03 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
[link to ssd.jpl.nasa.gov]

This should keep you up to date.
Aquarius58

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04/26/2011 09:33 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Thanks!
"The Physical World is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty"

[link to nemesis8.com (secure)]
Anonymous Coward
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04/26/2011 09:40 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
NP.
Aquarius58

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04/26/2011 09:48 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
I ran that software to generate this result for Elenin (C/2010 X1) using the Sun as the center:

2455814.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-10 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691935923406E-01

2455815.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-11 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691934720136E-01

2455816.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-12 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691937901215E-01

Symbol meaning [1 AU=149597870.691 km, 1 day=86400.0 s]:
QR Periapsis distance, q (AU)

How did I do?
"The Physical World is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty"

[link to nemesis8.com (secure)]
AstronutModerator
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04/27/2011 12:05 AM

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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
I ran that software to generate this result for Elenin (C/2010 X1) using the Sun as the center:

2455814.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-10 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691935923406E-01

2455815.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-11 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691934720136E-01

2455816.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-12 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691937901215E-01

Symbol meaning [1 AU=149597870.691 km, 1 day=86400.0 s]:
QR Periapsis distance, q (AU)

How did I do?
 Quoting: Aquarius58


I didn't see a link to whatever software you're using. Whatever you use needs to account for the gravitational perturbations of the planets, and you need to examine the actual predicted time of perihelion, not just midnight on each successive day. Based on the fact that it was mentioned, I'll assume you're using JPL HORIZONS software, which is very good at that. Yes, Elenin will be closer to the sun at midnight on September 11th than midnight september 10th, but that does NOT mean that perihelion occurred on September 11th. In fact, perihelion has already happened before the 11th, it happens on September 10th. In fact, to be specific, perihelion occurs at 17:28 GMT on September 10th.

Last, but not least, stating the periapsis distance is not the same as establishing the time of periapsis. QR just tells you the predicted periapsis distance as dictated by the initial heliocentric ecliptic osculating elements (not the current distance of the target from the sun), it does not factor into account all the perturbers and is just an instantaneous value. That it changes on each day only shows you how much of an effect those perturbers have. You need to look at the delta values and see the point at which they reverse and deltadot goes from negative to positive.

Last Edited by Astromut on 04/27/2011 12:38 AM
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Aquarius58

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04/27/2011 12:46 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Like I said

NASA is... garbage in / garbage out...
 Quoting: Aquarius58


A mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty…

Seven years ago, the moment I first calculated the odd orbit of Sedna and realized it never came anywhere close to any of the planets, it instantly became clear that we astronomers had been missing something all along. Either something large once passed through the outer parts of our solar system and is now long gone, or something large still lurks in a distant corner out there and we haven’t found it yet.

Of all of the planets, comets, asteroids, and Kuiper belt objects in the solar system, Sedna is the only one that tells us this astounding fact so glaringly. The orbit of every single other object in the entire solar system can be explained, at least in principle, by some interaction with the known planets. Sedna alone requires something else out there. Posted by Mike Brown on Thursday, October 28, 2010
 Quoting: Mike Brown

"The Physical World is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty"

[link to nemesis8.com (secure)]
AstronutModerator
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04/27/2011 12:49 AM

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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Like I said

NASA is... garbage in / garbage out...
 Quoting: Aquarius58


A mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty…

Seven years ago, the moment I first calculated the odd orbit of Sedna and realized it never came anywhere close to any of the planets, it instantly became clear that we astronomers had been missing something all along. Either something large once passed through the outer parts of our solar system and is now long gone, or something large still lurks in a distant corner out there and we haven’t found it yet.

Of all of the planets, comets, asteroids, and Kuiper belt objects in the solar system, Sedna is the only one that tells us this astounding fact so glaringly. The orbit of every single other object in the entire solar system can be explained, at least in principle, by some interaction with the known planets. Sedna alone requires something else out there. Posted by Mike Brown on Thursday, October 28, 2010
 Quoting: Mike Brown

 Quoting: Aquarius58

Ok, what does that have to do with Elenin? I mean, this kind of goes to the Tyche hypothesis, but you don't need Tyche for Elenin to be perturbed into the inner solar system. Galactic tidal forces and perturbations from stars that previously passed close to our solar system are enough to cause that. The most exciting Sedna theory, imho, is that our sun gravitationally captured it from just such a passing star. That would make it an extra-solar object.
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nedlog

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04/27/2011 11:45 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
@Astronut: Have you made a Foto of Elenin with your Telescope?
Freedom is unavoidable
Aquarius58

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04/28/2011 09:38 PM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Ok, what does that have to do with Elenin?
 Quoting: Astronut


I'm trying to understand the orbit of Elenin by studying Sedna's highly eccentric orbit. The paper...

ABSTRACT
We report the discovery of the minor planet (90377) Sedna, the most distant object ever seen in the solar system.
Prediscovery images from 2001, 2002, and 2003 have allowed us to refine the orbit sufficiently to conclude
that Sedna is on a highly eccentric orbit that permanently resides well beyond the Kuiper Belt with a semimajor
axis of 480+/-40 AU and a perihelion of 76+/-4 AU. Such an orbit is unexpected in our current understanding
of the solar system but could be the result of scattering by a yet-to-be-discovered planet, perturbation by an
anomalously close stellar encounter, or formation of the solar system within a cluster of stars. In all of these cases
a significant additional population is likely present, and in the two most likely cases Sedna is best considered a
member of the inner Oort Cloud, which then extends to much smaller semimajor axes than previously expected.
Continued discovery and orbital characterization of objects in this inner Oort Cloud will verify the genesis of this
unexpected population.
 Quoting: Mike Brown


...is fascinating to me.

[link to iopscience.iop.org]

Last Edited by Bridge of Sighs on 04/29/2011 08:13 PM
"The Physical World is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, coated in a conundrum, basted with a paradox and garnished with uncertainty"

[link to nemesis8.com (secure)]
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
@Astronut: Have you made a Foto of Elenin with your Telescope?
 Quoting: nedlog


Yes, I have.
[link to i319.photobucket.com]
I found it to be exactly where it should have been according to its orbital elements. It is incredibly faint, which would not be the case if it were a brown dwarf star. The image may not look like much to the untrained eye, but this camera exchanges the noise level for speed when imaging deep space objects. It detects within seconds what takes most astronomical CCDs minutes to record (the trade-off being the noise level of the image) and it does so using infrared as well as visible light.
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rphunter

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05/03/2011 03:09 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
very nice Sir, .. any enhancements like false color.. in the works?

@Astronut: Have you made a Foto of Elenin with your Telescope?
 Quoting: nedlog


Yes, I have.
[link to i319.photobucket.com]
I found it to be exactly where it should have been according to its orbital elements. It is incredibly faint, which would not be the case if it were a brown dwarf star. The image may not look like much to the untrained eye, but this camera exchanges the noise level for speed when imaging deep space objects. It detects within seconds what takes most astronomical CCDs minutes to record (the trade-off being the noise level of the image) and it does so using infrared as well as visible light.
 Quoting: Astronut


Last Edited by RPHUNTER on 05/03/2011 03:13 AM
Funney

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05/03/2011 03:15 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
oh boy
you cant decide which one ? (comet/dwarf)
AstronutModerator
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
oh boy
you cant decide which one ? (comet/dwarf)

 Quoting: Funney

Err, no, it's comet, not a dwarf. I apologize if I was incoherent as I am exhausted, but what I meant to say was that if it were a brown dwarf, it wouldn't be nearly this dim, therefore it can't be a brown dwarf. It matches the position predicted by Elenin's orbital elements perfectly (astrometry performed on the un-enhanced image):
[link to flickr.com]
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
very nice Sir, .. any enhancements like false color.. in the works?

@Astronut: Have you made a Foto of Elenin with your Telescope?
 Quoting: nedlog


Yes, I have.
[link to i319.photobucket.com]
I found it to be exactly where it should have been according to its orbital elements. It is incredibly faint, which would not be the case if it were a brown dwarf star. The image may not look like much to the untrained eye, but this camera exchanges the noise level for speed when imaging deep space objects. It detects within seconds what takes most astronomical CCDs minutes to record (the trade-off being the noise level of the image) and it does so using infrared as well as visible light.
 Quoting: Astronut

 Quoting: rphunter


Thanks! Technically this camera always puts out "false" color as it perceives light beyond the visible spectrum (into infrared, probably into UV as well but I'd have to check the CCD specs again for the latter) and beyond what our eyes can see.

Last Edited by Astromut on 05/03/2011 03:23 AM
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Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 03:28 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Again, why are you lying? I already told you it reaches perigee on October 16th, not September 11th, why do you persist in lying?
 Quoting: Astronut

I suspect Terral is your alternate username and this exchange is to give "Astronut" much needed credibility.

Your Astronut username a well known shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1355192


Amusing, but no. I'm not Terral and I'm not a shill. Would a shill show live uncensored views of deep space?
 Quoting: Astronut

A shill is EASY to spot. You are easy to spot. I have watched you for some time. Your a shill.
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Again, why are you lying? I already told you it reaches perigee on October 16th, not September 11th, why do you persist in lying?
 Quoting: Astronut

I suspect Terral is your alternate username and this exchange is to give "Astronut" much needed credibility.

Your Astronut username a well known shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1355192


Amusing, but no. I'm not Terral and I'm not a shill. Would a shill show live uncensored views of deep space?
 Quoting: Astronut

A shill is EASY to spot. You are easy to spot. I have watched you for some time. Your a shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1367720

Circular reasoning and you didn't answer my question.
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Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 03:46 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
so there will be no impact this fall? everything will be fine and dandy?
Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 06:29 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Thanks OP I now have it and three moons rotating. Sorry the Shillhead is giving you so much grief. I don't think they more than guess at the turn without knowing the mass. Anybody can predict a constant curve but a gravity window I think not. I bet the turn will tell them how big it is. Thanks again.
Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 06:52 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Terral, What's at 11h 20m 65s 02 31 24? A Ferringi vessel no less? Could it be a victum of the big ELE? Thanks again.
**ZetaMax**

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05/03/2011 07:03 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
...

I suspect Terral is your alternate username and this exchange is to give "Astronut" much needed credibility.

Your Astronut username a well known shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1355192


Amusing, but no. I'm not Terral and I'm not a shill. Would a shill show live uncensored views of deep space?
 Quoting: Astronut

A shill is EASY to spot. You are easy to spot. I have watched you for some time. Your a shill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1367720

Circular reasoning and you didn't answer my question.
 Quoting: Astronut


noshill
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
noshill
 Quoting: **ZetaMax**


csbrah
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Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 08:18 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
I ran that software to generate this result for Elenin (C/2010 X1) using the Sun as the center:

2455814.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-10 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691935923406E-01

2455815.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-11 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691934720136E-01

2455816.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-12 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691937901215E-01

Symbol meaning [1 AU=149597870.691 km, 1 day=86400.0 s]:
QR Periapsis distance, q (AU)

How did I do?
 Quoting: Aquarius58


I didn't see a link to whatever software you're using. Whatever you use needs to account for the gravitational perturbations of the planets
 Quoting: Astronut


It seems he used the online HORIZONS system from jpl. This is the correct way of doing it. You can use it to perturb the orbit for a given date and then either:

* directly let it calculate RA/DEC for your location
or
* let it calculate Kepler elements for the perturbed osculating orbit at the given date to feed them into some planetarium software. There exists an online parser that can transform the cryptic output (the ELEMENTS) of the HORIZONS system directly into the format needed for stellarium. Look here: [link to projects.familie-steinel.de]
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
I ran that software to generate this result for Elenin (C/2010 X1) using the Sun as the center:

2455814.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-10 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691935923406E-01

2455815.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-11 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691934720136E-01

2455816.500000000 = A.D. 2011-Sep-12 00:00:00.0000 (CT)
QR= 4.824691937901215E-01

Symbol meaning [1 AU=149597870.691 km, 1 day=86400.0 s]:
QR Periapsis distance, q (AU)

How did I do?
 Quoting: Aquarius58


I didn't see a link to whatever software you're using. Whatever you use needs to account for the gravitational perturbations of the planets
 Quoting: Astronut


It seems he used the online HORIZONS system from jpl. This is the correct way of doing it. You can use it to perturb the orbit for a given date and then either:

* directly let it calculate RA/DEC for your location
or
* let it calculate Kepler elements for the perturbed osculating orbit at the given date to feed them into some planetarium software. There exists an online parser that can transform the cryptic output (the ELEMENTS) of the HORIZONS system directly into the format needed for stellarium. Look here: [link to projects.familie-steinel.de]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309387

Please read the rest of my post; I went ahead and assumed he was using horizons. QR does not tell you the perihelion date though. You need to look at the delta and delta-dot figures.
astrobanner2
Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 09:01 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
Why are the pins getting closer together on the google sky maps??? is the comet slowing down???
Anonymous Coward
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05/03/2011 09:10 AM
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Re: Astronomer Tracking Instructions For The ELEnin Comet/Dwarf Star
i suspect the guy who supposedly found this object is a russian govt agent posing as an amateur astronomer.





GLP