I am the real John Lear...ask me a question | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 4861242 United States 03/15/2012 04:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you very much for answering the question about Africa. Are you saying that some humans do not receive a soul if their time here is to be brief? Are you also saying that those born in more affluent and "better" locations are progressing upwards in their improvement and nearing the end of their visits to earth? Several weeks ago, before I read your thread, I actually said to my wife, "What did I ever do to deserve to come live on this planet? I think we are actually living in hell now." She told me I was crazy, but apparently there was more truth to that than I knew. My grandparents, both 92 now, are certainly on their final trip. They have both lived their lives with utmost integrity and without envy or greed. Amazing people that I cannot hold a candle to. When they leave this time (for the last time) will I ever see them again, remember who they are or the experiences we shared? All the best. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/15/2012 06:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Mr Lear, Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4861242 Thank you very much for answering the question about Africa. Are you saying that some humans do not receive a soul if their time here is to be brief? Thats the way I see it. Are you also saying that those born in more affluent and "better" locations are progressing upwards in their improvement and nearing the end of their visits to earth? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4861242 Not necessarily. They may be placed in 'affluent' or 'better' locations/situations to see how they deal with integrity and without envy, hate or greed. Some might take 'advantage' of the affluence. Its a test we all get one way or another. Several weeks ago, before I read your thread, I actually said to my wife, "What did I ever do to deserve to come live on this planet? I think we are actually living in hell now." She told me I was crazy, but apparently there was more truth to that than I knew. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4861242 Most of us did something negative to get down here on Earth. Some came just for a visit or to help someone they know. Its hell for some, nice for others. My grandparents, both 92 now, are certainly on their final trip. They have both lived their lives with utmost integrity and without envy or greed. Amazing people that I cannot hold a candle to. When they leave this time (for the last time) will I ever see them again, remember who they are or the experiences we shared? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4861242 Maybe. Maybe not. Outwards appearance can be deceiving. In any case they will find out for sure at the end of this tour. No one but your grandparents are privy to that decision. And yes, you will see them many times, remember who they are and the experiences you shared. It will seem as real as it does now. Because it will be as real as it is now. And all the best to you. Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/15/2012 07:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I don't know. But Lou says: "The sun, the creator of all we see around us in this solar system, a mystery beyond human comprehension will forever keep its secrets. Humans will never know "anything" about that magical beast and heavenly delight that brings sunshine into our lives. And yet, the sun will expire and die, but we mere-immortals, mostly clueless of all the magic within our very souls, will live on forever." Lou Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/15/2012 07:32 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Other than I am not getting my cigars today does anybody know what this means? Other than the obvious. And, no, they weren't Cuban. 3/09/2012 10:10 PM DEPARTURE SCAN BETHLEHEM, PA, US 3/10/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 3:11 AM LOCATION SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 5:01 AM DEPARTURE SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/15/2012 5:00 AM OUT FOR DELIVERY LAS VEGAS, NV, US 3/15/2012 2:27 PM PKG DELAY-ADD'L SECURITY CHECK BY GOV'T OR OTHER AGENCY- BEYOND UPS CONTROL LAS VEGAS, NV, US Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 9102908 Australia 03/15/2012 07:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hi John, I havent read the entire thread yet (still working my way through) so apologies if its already been covered. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on if / when full dsclosure will ever happen in regrds to government knowledge of Aliens / ET and which worldwide governments may be involved. |
jaxlearnorris User ID: 12582390 United States 03/15/2012 07:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Other than I am not getting my cigars today does anybody know what this means? Other than the obvious. And, no, they weren't Cuban. Quoting: johnlear 3/09/2012 10:10 PM DEPARTURE SCAN BETHLEHEM, PA, US 3/10/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 3:11 AM LOCATION SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 5:01 AM DEPARTURE SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/15/2012 5:00 AM OUT FOR DELIVERY LAS VEGAS, NV, US 3/15/2012 2:27 PM PKG DELAY-ADD'L SECURITY CHECK BY GOV'T OR OTHER AGENCY- BEYOND UPS CONTROL LAS VEGAS, NV, US Sorry Dad, I thought they'd get there just fine with a reputable company. Guess I can start sending them priority again. I called the company, they have never seen anything like it - but wanted me to call them back when/if we find out anything! LOL! UPS said it could be tomorrow 'or anytime after that.' hahahahah |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/15/2012 08:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hi John, I havent read the entire thread yet (still working my way through) so apologies if its already been covered. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9102908 I would be interested to hear your thoughts on if / when full dsclosure will ever happen in regrds to government knowledge of Aliens / ET and which worldwide governments may be involved. Full dislcosure will not happen for another 4 to 6 decades. And by that time everyone will have been given a one on one disclosure as is ongoing today. If there is any disclosure before then it will be the government lying again. They may decide to fabricate an alien of their own who will feed us some government inspired baloney. Yes, it will look like an alien and walk like and alien and probably talk like an alien. But it will just be a duck. Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12562328 United States 03/15/2012 08:52 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
hoss58 User ID: 12098731 United States 03/15/2012 09:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | How John? How in the fuck are you missing all the chemtrails? Your outside enough. Your a piolot. And your smart enough to know thats not ice. What gives? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12562328 John is not as agile as he once was,so he may not be outside as much as you think. He uses a walker to get around now. He is a retired pilot, so he is not up in the air anymore, and he will tell you that what he does see looks like normal contrails for the most part. Its not high and mighty on his list, he basicly just worries about living life without envy hate or greed. And showing love to his family everyday.All good advice as these are the things to concentrate on, you can't do anything about chemtrails anyway , Whats important is what YOU do , not what some plane is doing Last Edited by hoss58 on 03/15/2012 09:29 PM When you die you will find out that John Lear was right .....Hoss |
Peezed User ID: 12368703 New Zealand 03/16/2012 12:42 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Other than I am not getting my cigars today does anybody know what this means? Other than the obvious. And, no, they weren't Cuban. Quoting: johnlear 3/09/2012 10:10 PM DEPARTURE SCAN BETHLEHEM, PA, US 3/10/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 3:11 AM LOCATION SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/10/2012 5:01 AM DEPARTURE SCAN SECAUCUS, NJ, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/14/2012 12:09 AM ARRIVAL SCAN COMMERCE CITY, CO, US 3/15/2012 5:00 AM OUT FOR DELIVERY LAS VEGAS, NV, US 3/15/2012 2:27 PM PKG DELAY-ADD'L SECURITY CHECK BY GOV'T OR OTHER AGENCY- BEYOND UPS CONTROL LAS VEGAS, NV, US Hmmmmmm.................you know John, I'm not so sure you want to be smoking those cigars!!......me thinks they're in some lab being injected with a quantum cyborg thingme ready to change your thought pattern or something similar!! But don't worry John, we've got your back....in so far as we'll let you know if your talking some kind of crazy due to you smoking those things!!....(or other things?)....Love ya work mate - keep it coming. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/16/2012 03:19 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | John, I sent the following message to an email address I had of yours in the past, but I am not sure if it is active anymore. Quoting: Umbra 5676024 "Dear Mr. Lear, I have a few questions about the gravity phone you mentioned in a 2004 C2C interview with Art Bell. I would also like to touch on a few issues regarding the A/B gravity waves. Gravity is instantaneous as you mentioned, if that's the case, then how can gravity a/b waves exist? A wave is a function of time & amplitude. If it's instantaneous, then it cannot be a wave, since a wave requires the time variable. Excellent questions. I don't know any of the answers. And I have no background in physics. Also sorry the delay, you have caused my brain to work overtime. But are you saying that instantaneous cannot be a time variable? This may not be as obvious as you think. So a gravity phone, how does this work? How would you call a specific location, or a specific gravity phone? Do they possess "numbers" or "frequencies" as our phones, or would anybody with a gravity phone be able to listen? I don't know how this would work. I once thought that communication across vast distances in space would be possible via the use of Einstein-Rosen Bridges. Quoting: Umbra 5676024 We now know that Einstein's theories both special and general were wrong due to the fact that the speed of light has been exceeded by neutrinos, superluminals, anti-mesons and the Cerenkov effect. Please tell me how the ER Bridge works?. How would communication exist with the gravity phone? Would you be able to modulate gravity in order to send an analog signal, or is it digital? Quoting: Umbra 5676024 Another excellent question. I don't know. I'm also curious about whether or not it would be possible to modify the gravity phone to send signals back in time, or forward in time. Quoting: Umbra 5676024 Since travel in time is possible both forward and backward for aliens then it must be possible for them to send signals. Would be great if you could take a few minutes to reply. I'm very curious about this!" Quoting: Umbra 5676024 Again, sorry for the delay in answering your question, they are among the best I ever got. And please let me throw this into the mix: I do know that the frequency of the Gravity A wave (currently being labeled the Strong Force) is 7.46 Hz. The gravity wave is what is used for the gravity phone as well as its function in binding chargons to SMU's (singular mass units) which make quarks which make protons, electrons and neutrons. I think that remote viewing uses the gravity A wave because remote viewers can view anywhere forwards and back in time although the forward time viewing doesn't seem to be all that controllable. Our 'existence and surroundings' are just an 'illusion'. And outside our solar system there exists a totally different line of physics completely different from what we know. All the best. Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/16/2012 03:24 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hmmmmmm.................you know John, I'm not so sure you want to be smoking those cigars!!......me thinks they're in some lab being injected with a quantum cyborg thingme ready to change your thought pattern or something similar!! But don't worry John, we've got your back....in so far as we'll let you know if your talking some kind of crazy due to you smoking those things!!....(or other things?)....Love ya work mate - keep it coming. Quoting: Peezed WHOOOOPS. I never thought of that. But if I don't smoke these I would certainly smoke some in the future. But just to be sure, when I get them, I will have Marilee smoke one first. Its the safe thing to do. Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
JoinTheFun User ID: 4858674 Netherlands 03/16/2012 03:31 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
campinginamerica User ID: 4930012 United States 03/16/2012 01:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Mr Lear, Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7767662 This all sounds good for those living in a country where they have basic needs met..like food and water, shelter etc. We have the luxury of sitting around working on our souls while the the rest of the world goes down the tubes. What about those millions born in Africa that only live a few horrible months before they starve to death? Are they supposed to be learning to live with "integrity and without envy and greed" too? Rather hard to be greedy or envious when no one has anything... This doctrine reminds me of the "religious prosperity" movement of the US...it works fine when there is prosperity to be had, but does not work anywhere else in the world where the majority live on less than $2 a day. Your 'majority' may be 'paying' for past misdeeds. This is probably not their first rodeo. Yes, they may be learning about "integrity without envy, hate or greed" but it may be taking them longer. But nobody does time unless they deserve it and Africa is particuarly suited for those who do. And those who live only a few horrible monthes you should remember that that 'they' may not be the ones learning the lesson. In which case 'they' may not even have a soul to work on. John, Your thinking here seems warped, but even if it is true that people in Africa deserve disease and starvation based upon their evil past lives, does this mean we should ignore their plight? And how can you be sure? And some folks in Africa don't have souls? Come on bro. Your definition of integrity may be undernourished. Which brings me to my final sort of complaint on your idea of integrity. It seems to me that eating meat which was once physically abused is dangerous to your soul, physical health and personal integrity. You claim to be searching for the truth along with the rest of us, but you seem willing to ignore the plight of slaughtered animals who are tortured before death, who are forced to lay in their own fesces in feed lots so you can have creme of whatever. You did not watch the entire video presentation of Gary Yourofsky, but if you had you might have really got the gist of what I am trying to say. Shouldn't we ask ourselves the question "What am I going to put in my mouth and why am I putting this in there? Maybe you are a victim of your own stomach. It seems you have fallen for the propaganda of the slaughter house and dairy lobby while telling us that 9/11 and so many other things we take for granted are lies. Perhaps you have swallowed the biggest lie of all without questioning it. |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/16/2012 04:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | John, Quoting: campinginamerica 4930012 Perhaps you have swallowed the biggest lie of all without questioning it. No the biggest lie is religion. As far as eating meat, I have so illusions as to how far up or down we humans are on the food chain. Apparently you do. Bon appetit! Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 284061 United States 03/18/2012 02:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here is the picture on Nasa's site. [link to www.nasa.gov] |
George B Extinct But Not Forgotten! User ID: 1219201 United States 03/18/2012 04:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nasa Picture with a structure on the Moon? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 284061 Here is the picture on Nasa's site. [link to www.nasa.gov] Wow! This is an actual picture form a NASA website . . . [link to search.nasa.gov] LCROSS Scientists. LCROSS project scientists Anthony Colaprete and Dr. Kim Ennico review early results from the centaur and spacecraft impacts.others searched for: [link to www.nasa.gov] Last Edited by George B on 03/18/2012 04:21 PM Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter! "Email: [email protected]" All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional . . . George B |
George B Extinct But Not Forgotten! User ID: 1219201 United States 03/18/2012 04:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | :NASA Moon Struct: :NASA Photo 2: :NASA Photo: Last Edited by George B on 03/18/2012 05:03 PM Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter! "Email: [email protected]" All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional . . . George B |
George B Extinct But Not Forgotten! User ID: 1219201 United States 03/18/2012 07:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I got the possible answer for the photo . . . it is a grid for the impact of the LCROSS . . . on another site not allowed to be mentioned here it was explained by Anthony Colaprete himself . . . Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter! "Email: [email protected]" All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional . . . George B |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 11810755 United States 03/18/2012 07:36 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | How John? How in the fuck are you missing all the chemtrails? Your outside enough. Your a piolot. And your smart enough to know thats not ice. What gives? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12562328 John is not as agile as he once was,so he may not be outside as much as you think. He uses a walker to get around now. He is a retired pilot, so he is not up in the air anymore, and he will tell you that what he does see looks like normal contrails for the most part. Its not high and mighty on his list, he basicly just worries about living life without envy hate or greed. And showing love to his family everyday.All good advice as these are the things to concentrate on, you can't do anything about chemtrails anyway , Whats important is what YOU do , not what some plane is doing Hoss stfu!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop answering for Lear!!!!!! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1148411 New Zealand 03/18/2012 08:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I got the possible answer for the photo . . . it is a grid for the impact of the LCROSS . . . on another site not allowed to be mentioned here it was explained by Anthony Colaprete himself . . . yes like a grid drawn on paper would have a shadow on one side and be partially obscured by moon terrain as well? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12684874 United States 03/18/2012 08:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
hoss58 User ID: 12098731 United States 03/18/2012 09:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | How John? How in the fuck are you missing all the chemtrails? Your outside enough. Your a piolot. And your smart enough to know thats not ice. What gives? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12562328 John is not as agile as he once was,so he may not be outside as much as you think. He uses a walker to get around now. He is a retired pilot, so he is not up in the air anymore, and he will tell you that what he does see looks like normal contrails for the most part. Its not high and mighty on his list, he basicly just worries about living life without envy hate or greed. And showing love to his family everyday.All good advice as these are the things to concentrate on, you can't do anything about chemtrails anyway , Whats important is what YOU do , not what some plane is doing Hoss stfu!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop answering for Lear!!!!!! Well, if you want John to answer you will have to ask in a civil manner.If you are going to use fowl language you are going to get reply's from me. If you want respect and answers to your questions you are going to have to ask in a respectful manner. So , was the information I gave you helpful? It happens to be the truth and if you would read more and type less vulgarity you might know these things about John. Have a great day . When you die you will find out that John Lear was right .....Hoss |
johnlear (OP) User ID: 1324111 United States 03/18/2012 10:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | No. Detlev was 45 on the day I was born and he would have been 115 yers old today. I don't think my father ever met him but I only know a small portion of those my father knew. All the best. Live your life with integrity; and without envy hate or greed. Express your love to your family every day. Thats all you have to do in this life other than doing things you like to do. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12684874 United States 03/18/2012 10:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
George B Extinct But Not Forgotten! User ID: 1219201 United States 03/18/2012 11:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I got the possible answer for the photo . . . it is a grid for the impact of the LCROSS . . . on another site not allowed to be mentioned here it was explained by Anthony Colaprete himself . . . yes like a grid drawn on paper would have a shadow on one side and be partially obscured by moon terrain as well? Hmmmmm. . . . That is the NASA explanation. . . So I guess one has to weigh the sources, information and decide who to believe. . . .looks suspicious to me but what makes me think it is possibly correct is NASA wouldn't be stupid enough to release a photo with such information on it by mistake . . . Also an impact grid on an image of an impact mission does make logical sense. . . . Last Edited by George B on 03/22/2012 04:48 PM Martin Luther King . . . Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter! "Email: [email protected]" All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer & physicist (1564 - 1642) The only thing guaranteed in life is deception. . . everything else is optional . . . George B |
hanover User ID: 10557697 United States 03/19/2012 08:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | YO John, Hey just listened to your interview with Patrick Timpone, enjoyed it, and sorry to hear you have such an arthritis problem. I have had same and just happened to run into ormus,tried it, and have had relief, hip, hand, knee and foot. Not pushing anything, I researched it and explored it on my own. You are a few years ahead of me...army 69-71. Hope you give more interviews as they are very interesting...and I sense your honesty. jas |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12800738 United States 03/19/2012 10:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I don't know. But Lou says: "The sun, the creator of all we see around us in this solar system, a mystery beyond human comprehension will forever keep its secrets. Humans will never know "anything" about that magical beast and heavenly delight that brings sunshine into our lives. And yet, the sun will expire and die, but we mere-immortals, mostly clueless of all the magic within our very souls, will live on forever." Lou It's a stargate. [link to johnkettler.com] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12800738 United States 03/19/2012 10:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Mr Lear, would appreciate your opinion on this ... Quoting: >~* Flutterby Fringe*~< Is the Sun currently giving birth or is this a craft docking and refueling? I don't know what that is. The sun gave birth to an earth sized planet on or about May 7, 2011. I don't think this is it becuse it is way too big. It's a mothership upgrading the sun. 1. The Sun, Sol, IS a stargate, seen in the vid, in several frequencies, as an isosceles triangle, with its base at the bottom and apex at the top. 2. The ETs/EDs report that ~50 seconds in, one of the Liberation Force science ships can be seen detaching from the Sun, following solar upgrades! Yes, you read that correctly. 3. Per the ETs/EDs, their Liberation Force scientists are assisting in transitioning Sol from a white star to a blue star, which it will be in its higher density. 4. Compare the Mayan glyph here with the stargate triangle on Sol reported by the ETs/EDs. Note particularly, say the ETs/EDs, the craft emerging from that isosceles shaped stargate and that the craft fits the classic UFO descriptions perfectly. [link to www.alienvideos.net] 5. In case any doubts remain about the ETs/EDs’ claims, please see this close-up, where you can see the craft and the ET/ED occupant. [link to johnkettler.com] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12901172 Australia 03/21/2012 09:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | John, tell us some crazy stories. We all love you on this forum. Quoting: SOARINGHAWKHeres the craziest one I know: The U.S. Navy with 24 orbiting weaponized satellites and HAARP caused the Japan earthquake but didn't realize the extent of the damage the tidal wave could do to the reactors. Now they are trying to cover up what they did and scurrying around like rats on the Titanic. Too many people know they did it so it will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months. I don't know the reason for the attack but it had something to do with money. (duh, I know) Is that crazy enough? I think their motivation was to stop Japan buying their treasury bonds which was putting the US into their debt. The Tsunami forced Japan to stop buying the bonds as they had to rebuild after all the damage. Tsunamis are certainly HAARP imo, no one had ever heard of one before.. Then mid 2004 'The Day After Tomorrow' comes out(movie about huge wave smashing into a city), then 6 months later.. surprise, surprise, the Indian Ocean Tsunami hits.. 250,000+ killed. The Eugenic Lunatics strike again! |