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Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?

 
Relative deviance
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05/08/2011 06:32 AM
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Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
Anonymous Coward
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Slovakia
05/08/2011 06:42 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Ezekiel 33:11

Better educate yourself first then ask smtg. that has a meaning.iamwith
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 06:44 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I R UR MANIPULATOR!

U R A MARIONETTE!
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
05/08/2011 06:47 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance


You have free will... and (some)prophecies will come too pass.
Duality.
Anonymous Coward
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Ireland
05/08/2011 06:52 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Well God knows all things, he did give us all free will, he just knew
even before we were born, how we would use it, but there are times
and seasons for the heavens, so all must be allowed to continue
as is, until the turn, and only God knows that, although he did say
he would give us signs in the heavens, pity very few know how to
read them, thanks to our world dictators, anyway we know they
will be first to go, Gods word is holy and true,
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
05/08/2011 06:56 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Well God knows all things, he did give us all free will, he just knew
even before we were born, how we would use it, but there are times
and seasons for the heavens, so all must be allowed to continue
as is, until the turn, and only God knows that, although he did say
he would give us signs in the heavens, pity very few know how to
read them, thanks to our world dictators, anyway we know they
will be first to go, Gods word is holy and true,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1329401


How do you interpret gods word?
scripture?
not looking for fight... serious question.
Anonymous Coward
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Netherlands
05/08/2011 06:57 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
not looking for fight... serious question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1374950

those are fighting words
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:04 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
It's a case of the most likely outcome of events from a certain point of time.
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:04 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
my theory in general, not just to specific doom events, is that a person's fate is like a set of roads which fork off leading to other sets off roads. With our freewill we choose which road to walk on, and then from there choose which other roads to walk on etc...

As to doom prophecies specifically, they're just like a line that cuts off the roads of people so everything stops until the doom has fully unfolded and judgement day occurs.

just my $0.02
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:05 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance


I do not believe in prophesy OP, but I believe your argument has a few logical flaws.

It is over simplified.

Probably contains a non-sequitur.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
05/08/2011 07:08 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
not looking for fight... serious question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1374950

those are fighting words
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1368734


tounge

yeah the old passive-aggression re-surfacing...

but it was a sincere question... something 'mick' said resonated in me...
Relative deviance  (OP)

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05/08/2011 07:13 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Ezekiel 33:11

Better educate yourself first then ask smtg. that has a meaning.iamwith
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1334686


My prophesy fulfilled - meaningless bible quotes by people who don't comprehend the message they pretend to follow.

The Old testicle god wasn't a friendly kind of guy. Jesus died for your sins - but he was the all powerful creator's son, right?
Thanks dad! I really liked the hanging on a cross for days part. Being nailed up there was a highlight. Holy ghost - Holy S#!t is more like it. I'll forgive anything. A little mock sacrifice and some lip service, and don't forget that 10% plus. All is good. Look, it saved me. Oh, ... right, I guess it didn't. But, hey I'm in charge now. The Old man is retired from the business of wrath. But he retires like the Rolling Stones so watch out, he might come back to rock your world again.

Astronomical records, good ideas, preposterous tall tales and terrible deeds mixed with a little history makes a great way to control and tax.
The same prophecy is linked back through many civilizations upon which each new religion is based. This indicates it is referring to an astronomical occurrence which causes destruction, not a creator getting pissed off at his lowly, degenerate children which he made to be just like him, a vengeful, half witted, blind, ignorant, perverse, mean old cuss destroying everything he loves and needs. Now that you mention it, that does sound like what mankind is doing to this rather nice planet we are trashing, but hey, God must want it that way. It's all part of the divine plan, man.
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:20 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
what if your free will were established in the preincarntive state , where you choose your incarnation-in order to further your own learning and agree to certain contracts -in agreement with other members of your soul family , who themselves agree to fulfil certain roles with you

the paradox is that you have had that free will but it is sublimed, purposefully and with your tacit consent in order for you to further evolve-in the permanent and truest sense ie spiritually

the trick in life would therefore be to regain/remember and fulfil your soul's purpose and contract
the one you chose with your own free will
to know thyself, fully , while incarnate

prophecy is just prediction based on probability

people who lack awareness of the root and source of their own thoughts and behaviours- ie who don't know themselves
are eminently predictable
hence the source of fulfilment of prophetic auto-suggestion
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:23 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance


If you jump from a clif, do I violate your freewill if I know the outcome?
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 07:36 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance


If you jump from a clif, do I violate your freewill if I know the outcome?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 754098


This answer illustrates the non-sequitur of OP's post.
tkwasny

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05/08/2011 08:11 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Although God knows the outcome of the entire span of spacetime's contents, those kinetics are, were, and will be the results of the free will choices each has made.

Didn't you ever wonder why God never appears to YOU and talks (with audio) to you? It is so God does not contaminate that environment.

Why permit this?

It is so infinite (which cannot change, never began, cannot end) can engage and become one with newness and discovery THROUGH US as the tools of symbiotic communion. All are used whether they are aware of the communion or not. There is this structural being half in spacetime, half in the Infinite that permits this TWO WAY COMMUNION.

Just that we humans have decided to turn off the communion direction where we "see" and "hear" the communications fromt he infinite side.
alexblanelayder
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05/08/2011 08:22 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
on a world stage level its been a done deal from the get/jump. now on a personal level that all depends on your certain actions and responses.

simply put for a simple mind OP, im not about to get all biblical on you. i dont toss pearls to swine.

you ever read a hardy boy's book???? or those Choose Your Own Adventure books?????


the beauty is, do you know if you are one of the true and chosen ones/called out ones????whether its a Hebrew(jew) or gentile.the LORD GOD knows but DO YOU OP???

was salvation made for you OP???? look deep in your heart to see.

it is not natural for US to be in rebellion to the creator and the LORD GOD that gave us the BIBLE.


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

your not a christian because you believe, you BECOME (a life long process) a christian by believing.death burial resurrection.make christ #1 in your life.

if you pass that offer up your crazy.seriously.
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 08:42 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance


Freewill:

I won't effect the outcome of your day if I chose to eat donuts, or pickled egges, or exercise my freewill and eat nothing at all for breakfast. Yet, I've exercised my freewill, in this one simple issue amongst many, without affect to the experience of the world for anyone but myself.

I'm exercising my freewill, but the exercise of it is insufficient to change the Script of what your day will be: the exercise of your own freewill.

Moreover, my free-will won't affect the tides, the rising/setting of the Sun, or the weather in your locale.

It won't affect your age, health, hair color, place you live, or anything at all about your life, or anyone else's life/experience of the world.

God stands outside of time, which means He's already seen the end-result of the accumulated effects of every action of freewill, of every person who's ever lived or will lived. For reasons of His own, He's chosen to reveal these results.

The results, the prophecies, are based upon this All-Knowing, not upon manipulation of anyone's free-will.

We're each free to pick and choose, to do evil or good. But it won't affect the outcome of the Script, because God's already seen it and told it.

No contradiction.
Anonymous Coward
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Ireland
05/08/2011 08:47 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Hey Austrailia,I am not a Mick, I am an old woman, I use some parts
of the bible, just the ones that mean something to me, I think my love
of all things, is what guides me the most, having seen so many terrible
things in life, and watched our society decay, My heart breaks for the
children today, they are so misled,and their personel suffering is greater,
than any my generation suffered, fear, hate, war, greed drugs all horrific,
and people call it progress. as more and more children suffer.
Understanding God is simple for me, because his words, and the true
words of Jesus, were given to us to understand, it was mans manulipition,
for whatever gains, is were all the confusion comes from,
cant say I understand everything, but enough for me to believe , that there
is only one true God, he is merciful, holy,and who loves us very much,
and sends all the assistance, from heaven to guide, and protect us in these
times, as much, as is possible, without shaking us before our time
He understands we are sinners, and we have been decieved greatly,
he takes all things into account, But I feel his anger has been stirred, and
that is as mighty as his love is, for those who denied truth to his children.
Dont attack me, this is just how I see, and feel things, I fully understand
everyone has their own understanding, of what they think is, or isnt for them,
So sorry no fight from me, no links, just my thoughts.
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 08:49 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Prophecy actually relies on the fact that Satan controls all the powers of the world, and that God knows what he is going to do.

It was given to him. His plans will come to fruition in order to be exposed, and for him to be destroyed.
Wingedlion

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05/08/2011 08:54 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I am curious as to how one who is raised to believe in freewill and also in biblical or other prophesy deals with the obvious contradiction. If prophesy is to be fulfilled and it relies in any way on actions of man then there can obviously be no freewill for any unplanned action by any man could upset the outcome.
 Quoting: Relative deviance



But only if TIME is in a state of flux which it is not. Everything that can or will be done...has already happened, that keeps freewill intact, and prophecy 100% perfect, calling the end from the beginning. Eccelesiastes 3:14-15 explains this perfectly, how that God requires that which is past, means that God only holds us accountable for the things which we have already done, not the things that we are going to do in the future...which has already occurred.
"Glory is what happens when faith overcomes adversity."
Anonymous Coward
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05/08/2011 08:55 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
What I mean is he does obviously know as said what the accumulated affects of our free will are. But biblical prophecy deals with mainly the actions of Satan's government. His power through the Roman Catholic Church.

The accumulation of his deception will cause people to exercise their free will more wickedly towards the end.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
05/08/2011 09:09 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Free will is an illusion.
When one looks for free will scientifically, it is not to be found.
Free will is only apparent.
Relative deviance  (OP)

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05/08/2011 04:47 PM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
I was hoping for some views from outside the bible thumping perspective, not that the religious aren't entertaining and humorous in their general lack of thought and eagerness to quote some ancient gibberish.

THis one is super funny - "But only if TIME is in a state of flux which it is not. Everything that can or will be done...has already happened, that keeps freewill intact, and prophecy 100% perfect, calling the end from the beginning. Eccelesiastes 3:14-15 explains this perfectly, how that God requires that which is past, means that God only holds us accountable for the things which we have already done, not the things that we are going to do in the future...which has already occurred."

In other words it's a closed loop and you have no choice in anything. That is what you have just stated. This is the paradox.

And this one
"I won't effect the outcome of your day if I chose to eat donuts, or pickled egges, or exercise my freewill and eat nothing at all for breakfast. Yet, I've exercised my freewill, in this one simple issue amongst many, without affect to the experience of the world for anyone but myself."

Your choice of which donut might be irrelevant, but even that simple decision can have far reaching effects. Say the officer that went to the donut shop after you didn't get his favorite donut making him upset causing him to beat the crap out of the next poor speeder who ends up brain damaged and doesn't develop some world changing technology, cure for disease, etc. Of course that isn't interfering with your prophecy because it's all god's plan. Or, you didn't eat, rushed out the door and crashed into jebus on his way back to save us all, again, killing him before he could get nailed.

But, if the world ends in nuclear war, god's plan was to blow it all up? Why build it in the first place? Could one or several men have affected the outcome by choosing not to push that button? If there was freewill then that simple decision would affect god's plan, so I have freewill to choose my donut, or my shirt, or which path to travel, but I am powerless to make the tiny decisions that can affect the outcome of everything. Contradictions, always contradictions in religion and the blind believer who always comes up with a way to justify the evil that occurs in service of their beliefs.
Am the One

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08/08/2012 12:49 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
Freewill keeps you in dualism. ego-mind-body separation, self and world, cause and effect, self on biology for competing, him vs her, Darwinism was created to keep the habit mind functioning in time and space, beginning to end, birth death, One coin, flipping this way and that way, heads or tails, etc.
Self and World is not separate, are you separate from nature? no. Universe is within, as the kingdom of heaven. Thanks to the educational system which gave us and our parents, family, friends, society, World -- programs to function moment to moment, day to day, hooray!!

5a
Right!!
institutionalized

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08/08/2012 12:57 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
The path of righteousness, is straight and narrow and beset on all sides by the iniquity of free will.

Free will was the choice. Give your loyalty to God, or take within your heart the love of a false god, who commands free will, and to do what thou wilt.

To do what thou wilt, for this is the whole of the law.

Is it your will to murder, to drink blood, to sacrifice innocence, to hurt?????

Choose.
,./;'[]=-
Funney
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Czech Republic
08/08/2012 01:10 AM
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Re: Prophesy paradox? So everything is scripted, no freewill, or ...?
REACTION UPON STIMULUS = LIFE

thanks to our nature, we are so transparent down here

our beahviour is SET as in stone

souls dictate geography & interactions

bodies behave accordingly (its a tool)

consciously aware of it ..using it ? ...minority

from our view, it is surely a paradox (for one who looks at prophecies, not my case)

but seen with eyes of nature, it is a method to acomplish some goals!

hf

i say:

prophecy is like history, strictly individual!


abduct





GLP