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The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?

 
Nosaj
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The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What do you know about these?

1dunno1

"Basically, take an atom and zap it to remove it's electron. Then the atom has a positive charge. Use a positive electric field to fire the atom out the back (positive charges repel each other). Since it is a little atom, you can fire it at a VERY VERY high speed.

It is like propelling your car by shooting BBs out the back. Basically, it takes a long time to get up to speed, but it much more efficient since you can shoot those BBs out at close to light speed. For the same mass of propellant, you end up going a lot further and faster(EVENTUALLY!).

Think of it this way. If you have 100 pounds of propellant and shoot it all out the back at 50,000 mph and have used it up in a few minutes (like a rocket) vs. taking that 100 pounds and shooting it out at the speed of light (though it takes you a month to shoot it all out) then you've imparted a lot more thrust overall at the end of a month.

If you wanted to go faster at the start, you need a whole mess of BB shooters going all at once. So in order to get to Mars fast, you need to design something that can shoot out more than 1 BB at a time. If you could, for example, take that 100 lbs and shoot it all out the back at the speed of light in a few minutes, you'll be really haulin'.

Current ION thrusters only shoot a few atoms out at a time, so they have been used on long missions that are weight constrained and so can't carry lots of fuel. NASA's Deep Space 1 probe (launched in 1998) was the first to test out using one.

NASA's DAWN probe that is about to reach the asteroid Vesta also uses ION engines.

[link to www.space.com]

So, the hope is that now that ion engines have been proven, that they can make much bigger ones (or hundreds/thousands of them) on a ship. We have a long way to go still, so some ideas are to use ion engines for delivering cargo/supplies and old fashioned rockets for people."


[link to www.universetoday.com]
[link to www.amazon.com]

Edit to update:

Apparently, according to the scientists on the show, they said 39 days so more like 6 weeks.

It assumes an ion drive has a nuclear power plant on board for all the power needed.

The ion engine design is assumed to be the VASIMR drive, which uses superconducting magnets to generate powerful magnetic fields to accelerate the ions. Someone mentioned this VASIMR drive earlier in the thread:

Here is a nice article on it->

"Vasimr Trumps Star Trek Ion Drive Aiming At Mars"

[link to www.dailygalaxy.com]
star-trek-ion-drive-aiming-at-mars.html

Last Edited by Inchworm Jim on 05/27/2011 02:29 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2011 10:22 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What affect do the discarded atoms have on the local space environment?

I bet that hasn't even been considered!

I bet there are some breeds of space animals that are being decimated by the spent atoms of Deep Space 1!
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2011 10:23 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What do you know about these?

1dunno1

"Basically, take an atom and zap it to remove it's electron. Then the atom has a positive charge. Use a positive electric field to fire the atom out the back (positive charges repel each other). Since it is a little atom, you can fire it at a VERY VERY high speed.

It is like propelling your car by shooting BBs out the back. Basically, it takes a long time to get up to speed, but it much more efficient since you can shoot those BBs out at close to light speed. For the same mass of propellant, you end up going a lot further and faster(EVENTUALLY!).

Think of it this way. If you have 100 pounds of propellant and shoot it all out the back at 50,000 mph and have used it up in a few minutes (like a rocket) vs. taking that 100 pounds and shooting it out at the speed of light (though it takes you a month to shoot it all out) then you've imparted a lot more thrust overall at the end of a month.

If you wanted to go faster at the start, you need a whole mess of BB shooters going all at once. So in order to get to Mars fast, you need to design something that can shoot out more than 1 BB at a time. If you could, for example, take that 100 lbs and shoot it all out the back at the speed of light in a few minutes, you'll be really haulin'.

Current ION thrusters only shoot a few atoms out at a time, so they have been used on long missions that are weight constrained and so can't carry lots of fuel. NASA's Deep Space 1 probe (launched in 1998) was the first to test out using one.

NASA's DAWN probe that is about to reach the asteroid Vesta also uses ION engines.

[link to www.space.com]

So, the hope is that now that ion engines have been proven, that they can make much bigger ones (or hundreds/thousands of them) on a ship. We have a long way to go still, so some ideas are to use ion engines for delivering cargo/supplies and old fashioned rockets for people."


[link to www.universetoday.com]
[link to www.amazon.com]
 Quoting: Nosaj


Ion drive is great and its exponential curve of acceleration is great, one problem. That is, the amount of time it takes to initially accelerate takes WAY to long and I mean it could take literally months to just get moving to a few thousand mph
Nosaj  (OP)

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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What affect do the discarded atoms have on the local space environment?

I bet that hasn't even been considered!

I bet there are some breeds of space animals that are being decimated by the spent atoms of Deep Space 1!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1402959


I have heard that we should think of space as just another vast giant unexplored ocean with other sentient beings in it. I think that is what the "rods" and "orbs" are that NASA is trying to shake off with the most recent shuttle mission. They are not UFOs/Ships in the traditional sense but we need to treat them almost like underwater deep sea sentient beings...except in deep space.

What implications it may have I am sure we will find out.
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
The Hayabusa (Muses C) probe used an ion drive. It takes a very long time to get up to any speed.
Nosaj  (OP)

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05/27/2011 10:33 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
The Hayabusa (Muses C) probe used an ion drive. It takes a very long time to get up to any speed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1402866


Ion drive is great and its exponential curve of acceleration is great, one problem. That is, the amount of time it takes to initially accelerate takes WAY to long and I mean it could take literally months to just get moving to a few thousand mph
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1206931


Thanks for the input ACs!

So, that seems to be the greatest problem then so far is the acceleration. I am sure that can be focused upon and tweaked?

I think it would be useful for sending cargo/supplies for colonies of Mars or even Venus if/when this species gets intelligent enough to terraform those planets. The terraforming of Venus seems like a nice probability.

If we don't destroy ourselves before then and get rocked back to the stone age.

Last Edited by Inchworm Jim on 05/27/2011 10:33 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
[youtube] [link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2011 10:39 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Seems to me you could use a hybrid with conventional or some other system for acceleration
tsunamibomb
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
No way to get to mars in 5 hours no matter what. You cannot survive that much acceleration/deceleration. Maybe a two day trip if you want to be in a special support chamber or a week realistically.

Ion drives are as old as the hills. They are efficient but not powerful. The technologies available simply cannot work that well. You still have to pack a power supply to propel the ions, which limits usage of this type of system to being powered by solar panels, other methods require launch of fuels or reactive materials that get used up/expire and are heavy.

So it's a nice thought, but won't really be useful for space travel even if we wanted it. It is great for correcting orbits of satellites.
Edge Rider

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05/27/2011 10:40 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
ion propulsion is very cool
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

nasa is going to strap VASMIR to the ISS in 2013
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
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05/27/2011 10:48 AM

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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Wouldn't work for humans in an "hours" time frame...the acceleration and deceleration "G" forces would crush a person to gravy.

Still a lot of major hurdles to get past before we earthlings have long range space travel. Radiation, time/distance, force put on our bodies just to name a few.

Space is a hostile environment, it's better for robots really...even there we must overcome the massive amounts of fuel now required to really get anywhere even fairly quickly.

Hope ION drives have a future...they may. I'd love to see some robots roaming IO or Europa in my lifetime.
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Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2011 10:51 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What affect do the discarded atoms have on the local space environment?

I bet that hasn't even been considered!

I bet there are some breeds of space animals that are being decimated by the spent atoms of Deep Space 1!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1402959


Space animals! Of course. You're a genius!
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2011 11:14 AM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Wouldn't work for humans in an "hours" time frame...the acceleration and deceleration "G" forces would crush a person to gravy.

Still a lot of major hurdles to get past before we earthlings have long range space travel. Radiation, time/distance, force put on our bodies just to name a few.

Space is a hostile environment, it's better for robots really...even there we must overcome the massive amounts of fuel now required to really get anywhere even fairly quickly.

Hope ION drives have a future...they may. I'd love to see some robots roaming IO or Europa in my lifetime.
 Quoting: SHR


I used to accept common well-held beliefs as well.

I don't know that space is a hostile environment for humans.

I've not been there yet nor do I trust TPTB assertion that it is indeed hostile and devoid of life.
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05/27/2011 12:12 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What affect do the discarded atoms have on the local space environment?

I bet that hasn't even been considered!

I bet there are some breeds of space animals that are being decimated by the spent atoms of Deep Space 1!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1402959


Get Al Gore involved. Universal Warming! Pictures of polar bears floating on asteroids to follow.
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05/27/2011 12:21 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
it's the future until we get the CHOAM Heighliners
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05/27/2011 12:26 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
old school
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
NASA has used ion drive since early 90's
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05/27/2011 12:28 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
UGH... this is such old technology. We've had ion powered craft since the 1940s... Move along now...
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Yeah , in stoned body cus wetties like me would get squash by G force
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Now if we were talking about Twin Ion Engine vehicles...

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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
Tie fighters have been using ion drives since 1977 and ion cannons since 1980.
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05/27/2011 12:59 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
One piece of dust getting hit would cause the craft to explode.

No way to steer...So anything in between the start and end point would be hit...and cause massive damage once speeds became very high.
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
ion drives are cool ..inertia drives and the stuff in the vimanas that used resonant sound are really what we need
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1235125


I forgot how to embed a youtube
[link to www.youtube.com]
James
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
this is the old skool way of getting their. they currently use teleporation jump rooms to do it. Get there in a few minutes or less.
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05/27/2011 01:44 PM
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
No way to steer...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1311260


LMAO!

Steering in space... funny.

Take a left at the Moon and straight on till Mars eh?

I lol'd.
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?

No way to get to mars in 5 hours no matter what. You cannot survive that much acceleration/deceleration. Maybe a two day trip if you want to be in a special support chamber or a week realistically.

Have you never heard of inertial dampers? Using a computer controlled gravitational field to cancel out the acceleration deceleration forces works like a charm.
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
What do you know about these?

1dunno1

"Basically, take an atom and zap it to remove it's electron. Then the atom has a positive charge. Use a positive electric field to fire the atom out the back (positive charges repel each other). Since it is a little atom, you can fire it at a VERY VERY high speed.

It is like propelling your car by shooting BBs out the back. Basically, it takes a long time to get up to speed, but it much more efficient since you can shoot those BBs out at close to light speed. For the same mass of propellant, you end up going a lot further and faster(EVENTUALLY!).

Think of it this way. If you have 100 pounds of propellant and shoot it all out the back at 50,000 mph and have used it up in a few minutes (like a rocket) vs. taking that 100 pounds and shooting it out at the speed of light (though it takes you a month to shoot it all out) then you've imparted a lot more thrust overall at the end of a month.

If you wanted to go faster at the start, you need a whole mess of BB shooters going all at once. So in order to get to Mars fast, you need to design something that can shoot out more than 1 BB at a time. If you could, for example, take that 100 lbs and shoot it all out the back at the speed of light in a few minutes, you'll be really haulin'.

Current ION thrusters only shoot a few atoms out at a time, so they have been used on long missions that are weight constrained and so can't carry lots of fuel. NASA's Deep Space 1 probe (launched in 1998) was the first to test out using one.

NASA's DAWN probe that is about to reach the asteroid Vesta also uses ION engines.

[link to www.space.com]

So, the hope is that now that ion engines have been proven, that they can make much bigger ones (or hundreds/thousands of them) on a ship. We have a long way to go still, so some ideas are to use ion engines for delivering cargo/supplies and old fashioned rockets for people."


[link to www.universetoday.com]
[link to www.amazon.com]
 Quoting: Nosaj


Ion drive is great and its exponential curve of acceleration is great, one problem. That is, the amount of time it takes to initially accelerate takes WAY to long and I mean it could take literally months to just get moving to a few thousand mph
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1206931



a catapult system being designed now will alleviate acceleration lag
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
No way to get to mars in 5 hours no matter what. You cannot survive that much acceleration/deceleration. Maybe a two day trip if you want to be in a special support chamber or a week realistically.
 Quoting: tsunamibomb 1402999


Have you never heard of inertial dampers? Using a computer controlled gravitational field to cancel out the acceleration deceleration forces works like a charm.
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Re: The Ion Drive - Get to Mars within 5 hours!!! Is this the future of space propulsion?
She canna handle the strain, Captain!
Don't run. You'll just die tired.





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