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Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)

 
Jack Kelly
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07/25/2011 12:57 PM
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Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Some body asked me a great question the other day. “Does Scripture actually promise a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or is it just an opinion passed along from teacher to student?” Then he challenged me to cite even one Bible verse that would lead a person to believe the Pre-Trib position if they hadn’t already heard about it from some Bible teacher. He said that in all his studies he’s not been able to find one. Let’s see if he’s right.

First, Some General Points

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. Membership in the Church and therefore participation in the Rapture is contingent upon having personally accepted the Lord’s death as payment in full for your sins. While His death actually purchased full pardons for everyone, we each have to personally ask to have ours activated. Everyone who asks for salvation receives an unconditional, irrevocable “Yes!” (Matt. 7:7-8, John 3:16, Ephes. 1:13-14) For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. (2 Corinth. 1:20)

It’s Greek To Me

And finally, although cynics can truthfully say that the word Rapture doesn’t appear in any passage of Scripture, the statement is not correct in its intent. Rapture is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (One of the earliest translations of the Bible was into Latin, and the word rapture comes from there.) Its Greek equivalent is harpazo, which is found in the Greek text of 1 Thes. 4:17. When they’re translated into English, both words mean “to be caught up, or snatched away.” Harpazo, the word Paul actually used, comes from roots that mean, “to raise from the ground” and” take for oneself” and hints that in doing so the Lord is eagerly claiming us for Himself. So while the Latin word doesn’t appear in our Bibles, the event it describes certainly does. There’s a similar situation with the word Lucifer, also of Latin origin. It doesn’t appear in any of the original texts either, but no one would be naive enough to deny the existence of Satan on such a flimsy basis. With that introduction, let’s go first to the best known of the
Rapture passages.

According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes. 4:15-17)

Most of us are very familiar with these verses. But notice they don’t tell you when the rapture happens, only that it does. Notice also that the Lord doesn’t come all the way to Earth. We meet Him in the clouds and then according to John 14:1-3 go back with Him to where He came from. If this was the 2nd coming, He would be coming here to be where we are, not coming to take us there to be where He is. Paul described the same event in 1 Cor 15:51-52. In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be transformed. There he said that he was disclosing a secret, but the resurrection of the dead was not a secret. It can be found through out the Old Testament. The secret was that some would not die, but would be taken alive into the Lord’s presence following an instantaneous transformation. The rapture happens fast. In one instant we’re walking on Earth and in the very next, we’re in the Kingdom.

By the way, don’t try to use the trumpet reference in verse 52 to pin the timing of the rapture to some other event. Since both the Corinthian passage and the one from Thessalonians describe the same things, it’s safe to assume that the term last trump refers to the fact that the trumpet call of God from 1 Thes. 4:16 will signal the end of the Church Age, at which time the Church will disappear from Earth. So these two references both say that one generation of humans won’t die but will be suddenly changed from our earthly form to our heavenly one. And since both Matt. 24:31 (they’ll gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other) and Rev. 17:14 (with Him will be His called, chosen, and faithful followers) say that we’ll be with the Lord when He returns, this has to happen sometime before the 2nd Coming. And it can’t be just the resurrected believers coming back with Him because the Rapture passages above say that we’ll be changed at the same time as the dead are raised.

So When Does This Happen?

In the New Testament, the clearest indication we get in the timing department is found in 1 Thes. 1:9-10. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. The Greek word translated “from” in this passage is “apo.” Taken literally, it means we’re to be rescued from the time, the place, or any relation to God’s wrath. It denotes both departure and separation. This is supported by 1 Thes. 5:9 that declares, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Some folks are fond of pointing out that you can’t use God’s wrath interchangeably with the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same, they say. And they’re right, the two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. 11-13. God’s wrath is much longer, beginning in Rev. 6, as verse 17 explains. Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture advocates try to deny this but the Scripture is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments. The Bowl Judgments that come later don’t begin the time of His wrath, they conclude it. (Rev. 15:1) Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to disappear before Rev. 6, and that’s why we believe the Rapture takes place in Rev. 4 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Rev.5.

You Be The Judge

Now let’s apply my questioner’s litmus test. Could a believer, sitting alone on the proverbial desert isle with nothing but a Bible and with no pre-conceived ideas, conclude that there’s a pre-trib Rapture just from reading about it, or could he only be led into this position by first hearing someone teach him about it? Well, From Isaiah 13:9-13 and Amos 5:18-20, he would have learned that God is going to judge the Earth for it’s sins in a terrible time called the Day of the Lord when He’ll pour out His wrath on mankind. Reading Matt. 24:21-22 would have told him that this time of judgment would be so bad that if the Lord didn’t put a stop to it no one would survive. But the Lord will put a stop to it by returning in power and glory. Since he would know that the Lord hasn’t returned yet, he would know that God’s wrath is still in the future. When he got to 1 Thes. 1:9-10 he would see a pretty clear statement. Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath. In the “who, what, where, when, and why” methodology of the investigative reporter he would have the Who, (Jesus) the what, (rescues us) and the when (the time of the coming wrath). Reading on he would come to 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and get the where (from Earth to the clouds) and in 1 Thes. 5:9 the why (because we’re not appointed to wrath). From there he would logically conclude that since we’ll be rescued around the time of the coming wrath and since we’re not appointed to wrath, our rescue has to precede it. He could also answer another of the investigative reporter’s questions in 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and that’s how it would happen. The Lord himself will come down from Heaven into our atmosphere and suddenly snatch us away from Earth to join Him there. In chapter 5 he would learn that he would never know the exact timing of this event but only that it would precede the coming wrath. Of course there are many more passages I could reference but I think I’ve made my point and answered the question. In fact I’ll go one step further. I believe that since our hypothetical reader has no one to persuade him differently, he would assume that what he’s reading is to be taken literally. And if that’s the case, then the pre-trib position is the only conclusion he could logically come to, because every other position requires a moderate to massive re-interpretation of Scripture. I contend that left alone to work this out with only the Holy Spirit as his guide he would expect to be raptured before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. You see, God didn’t write the Bible to confuse us, but to inform us. It’s mankind that’s gotten everything all mixed up. If you give the Holy Spirit a clear minded student, uncontaminated by man’s opinions and prejudices, He would bring that person to the understanding of the rapture that’s most consistent with a literal interpretation of Scripture. And that requires a pre-trib rapture.

But Wait, There’s More

While we’re on the topic, there’s another issue that points to a pre-trib Rapture and it comes to us in the form of a clue in 1 Thes. 4:15, right at the beginning of the Rapture passage. Verse 15 opens with the phrase “According to the Lord’s own word.” There simply is no place in the New Testament where Jesus speaks of some being resurrected and some others being transformed to meet the Lord in the air. He never said anything like that, nor does he even imply such a thing. Those who believe they see it in Matt. 24:40-41 first have to ignore the fact that Jesus was explaining events on Earth on the actual day of His return, which would place the Rapture after the 2nd Coming, something no one believes. They also have to ignore the fact that in Matt. 24:40-41 both believers and non-believers are sent somewhere, believers being received unto Him, while non-believers are sent away. You have to research the Greek words translated “taken” (paralambano) and “left” (alphiemi) to realize this, but when you do you’ll see that the English is misleading. No Rapture view includes the disposition of non-believers, nor does it even mention them. By the way, this is a great example of why the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation is so important. Our Bible was mostly written in Hebrew and Greek. Every translation relies on the movement of words from one language to another. This process doesn’t always produce a perfect fit, and so learned men have to make allowances for this and exercise their own judgment from time to time. But men are not perfect. We all have our biases. When it’s an important issue where you want an exact meaning it’s always a good idea to double-check their work. Fortunately we have an incredible tool in the Strong’s Concordance. It contains every Hebrew and Greek word in the Bible with their primary and secondary meanings, how often each word appears in the Bible and what meanings are used in each appearance. You can compare these with the meaning the translators used and see if you agree with their treatment of the passage. By doing this with Matt. 24:40-41, you’ll find that the primary meaning of paralambano is to receive and the primary meaning of alphiemi is to send away. People with a post-trib disposition read 1 Thes. 4:15, and then turned to Matt. 24:40-41 where they saw one group being “taken” and another group being “left” after the end of the Great Tribulation. Assuming that these were the Lord’s own words Paul was referring to, they stopped there. They had seen what they wanted to see. In actuality Matt. 24:40-41 is most likely a preview of the Sheep and Goat judgment of Tribulation survivors. The word taken (received) refers to believers going live into the Kingdom, and the word left (sent away) applies to non-believers who are sent to the place prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matt 25:31-46) Of course none of this pertains to our desert island reader above. The verses I used there are clear enough that they don’t require any research into the original language. So he wouldn’t need a Strong’s Concordance, just his Bible.

What’s Your Point?

So if Jesus never taught about the Rapture, to which of the “Lord’s own words” was Paul referring? Some dismiss the phrase, saying that Paul was speaking of a conversation he had with the Lord that doesn’t appear in Scripture. But I think we deserve a better answer than that. Remember, 1st Thessalonians was probably Paul’s first written communication, undertaken in 51AD. Depending on whose opinion you accept, Matthew’s Gospel was either just being written or was still nearly 10 years away. Those who give it an early date say it was written to the Jews in Jerusalem and may even have been written in Hebrew. In any case neither it nor any other Gospel was yet in wide distribution. (Mark’s Gospel, the other candidate for earliest one written, doesn’t contain an equivalent to Matt 24:40-41.) So if Paul was referring to Scripture, as I believe he was, it had to be the Old Testament. Yes, like everything else in God’s plan, you’ll find hints of the Rapture even in the Old Testament. Look at this passage from Isaiah 26:19-21. But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Notice how the pronouns change from second person when God speaks of His people to third person when He speaks of the people of the Earth. It means the two groups are different. Those called “my people” are told to “enter your rooms” (the rooms of John 14:1-3?) because the others, called “the people of Earth” are going to be punished for their sins in a period of time called His Wrath. Sound familiar? (Note: the Hebrew word translated “go” in the phrase “Go my people” is translated “come” in some translations, recalling the command to John in Revelation 4, “Come up here!” But the word has another primary meaning and it’s my favorite. It means vanish. “Vanish, my people!” Yes we will.) Not by any stretch of the imagination has this passage been literally fulfilled. It’s an End Times prophecy that promises a resurrection of the dead and hiding of God’s people while God’s Wrath is unleashed on the people of Earth for their sins. And it was written 2750 years ago. The hiding of the Jews in the desert on Earth at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 12:14) cannot be considered as a fulfillment of this passage because no resurrection accompanies it. (The resurrection of Old Testament believers takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 12:2)) Of course, no one knows for sure that this is the passage Paul referred to, but as evidence of its influence on him, let’s compare it with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. Isaiah : But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Paul: The dead in Christ will rise first . Isaiah : Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. Paul: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Isaiah : See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Paul: While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. The wording is a little different, but it sure looks to me like they’re describing the same event.

And Still More

There are other sound theological reasons why the Church will be raptured before the End Times judgments begin. One is that the Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate, never dealing with both at the same time (Acts 15: 13-18) If the primary purpose of Daniel’s 70th week is to finish fulfilling the six promises to Israel in Daniel 9:24, then the Church has to disappear. Another is that the Church was purified at the cross at which time all the punishment due us was born by the Lord Himself. From that time forward the Church is considered by God to be as righteous as He is (2 Cor 5:17 & 21) The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is unscriptural and denies the Lord’s completed work on the cross. And third, the stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations. (Jeremiah 30:1-11) The Church isn’t destined for either of these outcomes. There are also several subtle clues that on their own can’t be used to support the pre-trib position, but which underscore the validity of the clear passages I’ve just cited. Take for instance the fact that Enoch, who bears a great similarity to the Church, disappeared before the Great Flood, that the angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear, and that Daniel was missing from the story of the fiery furnace, a model of the Great Tribulation. When the Lord described His coming in Luke 17:26-29 He said that it would be both like the days of Noah (some will be preserved through the accompanying judgments) and the days of Lot (some will taken away before them). And what about the promise He made to the Church in Philadelphia that he would keep us out of the “hour” of trial coming on the whole world. (Rev. 3:10) Is that the same as the “hour” of Babylon’s destruction in Rev. 18? But being asked to cite verses that didn’t require any prior knowledge I picked two that are clearest to me, 1 Thes. 1:9-10 and Isaiah 26: 19-21. And so by the testimony of two witnesses, one in the Old Testament and one in the New, we see the physical separation of believers from non-believers preceding the time of Judgment. And by the testimony of two witnesses a thing shall be established. (Deut. 19:15) Of course some won’t be convinced until we show them a verse that says the rapture will precede the Great Tribulation in those exact words. Obviously, such a verse doesn’t exist. I guess we’ll just have to wait and explain it to them on the way up.

[link to gracethrufaith.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/25/2011 01:01 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
bump
Anonymous Coward
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07/25/2011 02:10 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
AMEN!

bump
Anonymous Coward
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07/25/2011 02:12 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
Anonymous Coward
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07/25/2011 02:21 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
poppycock. its a newer (at earliest probably 16th century) invention than its pretty packaging, christianity, which is still a rather new idea in the world arena.
CHRISTian
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07/25/2011 03:47 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475203


Unbelievers won't read it. ONLY those with "ears to hear" will care about this spiritual Truth from the Lord...
Anonymous Coward
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07/25/2011 06:55 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475203


Unbelievers won't read it. ONLY those with "ears to hear" will care about this spiritual Truth from the Lord...
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


Five of the Ten virgins had ears to hear. And they went out to meat the Bridegroom.

Sadly, the other Five did not.
CHRISTian
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07/25/2011 11:21 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475203


Unbelievers won't read it. ONLY those with "ears to hear" will care about this spiritual Truth from the Lord...
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


Five of the Ten virgins had ears to hear. And they went out to meat the Bridegroom.

Sadly, the other Five did not.
 Quoting: Troubled Waters...


Yeah, unfortunately, you're correct. Unbelievers of this VERY soon to end age are just as spiritually blind and deaf, EXACTLY mirroring those that lived at the end of Noah's age. We've given our Lord's warning to them just like Noah did. All we can do now is pray for them as the sun sets and a midnight comes where NO man can work anymore! There can't be too many "stragglers" left for salvation before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ comes for us and closes that door of grace for seven of the WORST years in human history begins.....sighverysad
Revo/elation

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07/26/2011 12:56 AM

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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Jack Kelly is outstanding and I think he nails it here.

The real problem is "christians" calling other christians "devils" and rediculous things like that over it. It's way too late for this to be the focus.

For you mad max mid/pre-wrath/post christians where is ANY instruction about what to do during trib? There is none because the church isn't here.

Pray to be accounted worthy to escape these things...
Revo/elation

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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Also this excellent breakdown

CAUGHT OFF GUARD
[link to www.christconnection.net]

Will God catch His Church off-guard?
Will He come as "a thief in the night" and catch His children by surprise?
Will He show up UNEXPECTED?
As far as UNBELIVERS are concerned, YES.
As far as BELIEVERS are concerned, NO.
Jesus likened the days prior to His return to the "days of Noah" [Matthew 24:37-39].
Skeptics and unbelievers didn't expect it to REALLY rain for 40 days and nights, non-stop. They didn't expect the fountains of the deep to break, inundating the earth and submerging everything but the ark. BUT IT HAPPENED.
We know it happened because it's recorded in the Bible, plus every ancient culture contains some version of the universal flood.
Do you know who were THE ONLY ONES that the flood didn't catch off guard? THE BELIEVERS.
Noah and his family, 8 people in total, plus the animals they took inside the ark, WERE THE ONLY ONES prepared and SPARED from the universal judgment and destruction that ensued.
Unlike everyone else, they were NOT surprised by these events, since they were AWARE they would happen. Indeed, they were EXPECTING the flood, and were READY for it.
They didn't know the EXACT TIME [day or hour] the flood would begin, but they new the approximate time.
So will it be with the Rapture, tribulation and Second Coming.
Jesus said it. I didn't.
But didn't He say that He would come as a thief. When people least expect it?
Yes He said He'd come as a thief when UNBELIEVERS least expect it.
He never said WE wouldn't be expecting Him.
If He wanted us to be ignorant about the timing of the Rapture, He wouldn't have given us signs that will precede it, nor tell us to watch for such signs and when we see them to "lift up our heads" for our redemption draws near [Luke 21:25-36].
He also wouldn't have inspired Paul to write "but you are NOT in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" [1 Thessalonians 5:4].
I know self-professed "prophecy experts" have taught repeatedly that He will come as a thief, BUT THAT'S NOT what the Bible says.
I know they've taught time and again that "in the hour you think not, the Son of Man cometh" [Matthew 24:42,44].
Jesus ALWAYS narrowed it down to the day or hour.
But I challenge ANYONE, including any "expert", to produce a single Scripture that says we won't know the year, the month, or even the week.
There may be some nominal Christians who'll be caught by surprise. But committed Christians, who really love and seek the Lord, whose hearts are totally devoted to Jesus, and love Him above all else, won't be surprised at all. We will be EXPECTING HIM and delighted to be swept into His unspeakably marvelous Presence forever.
Bottom line's this: the world will be caught off-guard, the Church won't.


PROOF OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
The Rapture is positively, absolutely, unequivocally, pre-trib.
In Revelation 7:9 there is an innumerable multitude which appears, suddenly in heaven, before God's Throne.
Prophecy gurus erroneously teach these are the "tribulation martyrs":
Only problem with their theory is that's impossible, because:

A. the tribulation JUDGMENTS haven't even started.
The Tribulation begins, as the Rapture takes place, in Revelation 6:12, when Jesus opens THE 6TH SEAL. Tribulation JUDGMENTS don't begin until the 7TH SEAL is opened, in chapter 8:1.
B. Nowhere in this passage does it state these people have died.

Nowhere does it [even remotely] indicate these are martyrs.
Except for some isolated incident, there are no "martyrs" in the first half [3½ years] of tribulation [Revelation 9:20,21]. Many will die during that time as a result of the judgments being poured out on the earth, but not for their faith.
For one thing, Christians will be gone. Those who remain on earth, after the Rapture, are all non-Christian.
For another thing, people don't die for their faith until the second half [last 3½ years] of the tribulation [Revelation 14:13].

C. The "tribulation martyrs" aren't taken to heaven at all. They are resurrected at the end of the tribulation and rule and reign with Jesus here on earth, during the millennium [Revelation 20:4].

This "martyr myth" is total fabrication, which shouldn't surprise you by now since, as I've demonstrated time and again, most of what passes as "Bible prophecy" today is pure myth.
So, who are these people? This great multitude? If you want to know, you're in good company. The apostle John saw them, and also wanted to know.
Verse 14 tells us "These are they which came out of THE great tribulation".
There's ONLY ONE WAY to "come out of" the great tribulation, and that is to be raptured, as the tribulation begins.
That's exactly what has taken place here. These are the raptured saints which, collectively, make up Christ's Body, the Church.
Here's the sequence of events given in Revelation:
Revelation 6:9 as Jesus opens the 5th seal, John sees under the altar [in heaven] the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God.
At that point, he sees only souls.
In Revelation 6:12, WHEN JESUS OPENS THE 6TH SEAL, a huge earthquake takes place, the sun becomes black and the moon red as blood. This is the universal sign that the Tribulation is about to begin, and the Rapture is about to occur, given in all three of the synoptic gospels [Matthew, Mark and Luke], and also the book of Joel.
In Revelation 6:15,16 the church is Raptured, Jesus appears in the sky, those left on the earth try to hide.
Revelation 7:9 this great, innumerable multitude of "All nations, kindreds, people and languages" appears suddenly, out of nowhere, before God's Throne, and before the Lamb.
A moment ago, they weren't there.
All of a sudden, instantly, they show up. This is what prompts one of the elders to ask "Wait a minute, who are these ? Where did they come from?" [like, how come they're here now, and they weren't here a moment ago?].
In previous chapters [4,5 and 6], when John's spirit goes up to heaven, he sees God on his Throne, he sees souls, he sees 24 elders, he sees the "seven spirits of God", the 4 cherubim [living creatures"], and many angels, but no "multitude" [which implies people].
The innumerable multitude, WHICH SHOWS UP IN HEAVEN SUDDENLY, IN AN INSTANT, is "clothed in white robes, and [has] palms in their hands".
Hello! They got hands! Physical hands.
If they got hands, they gotta also have arms, chests, legs... Bodies!
In Revelation 6:9 John sees only souls under the heavenly altar. In Revelation 7:9 he sees bodies. Human bodies, standing in white robes before God's Throne.
Glorified, resurrected, immortal bodies, as evidenced by the fact that, in verse 16, they "hunger no more, neither shall the sun light on them, or any heat".
Their new, transformed, immortal, glorified bodies are immune to hunger, heat or worldly elements.
It's at the Rapture that "the dead in Christ shall [their bodies] rise first", then we who are alive and remain are "caught up" [Raptured] with them in the clouds.
It's at the Rapture that we don't die but are transformed [our bodies are transformed], "in a moment in the blink of an eye" from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal.

To sum up, this innumerable MULTITUDE [the raptured Church] appears suddenly in heaven under the 6th SEAL. Tribulation JUDGMENTS don't begin until, chapter 8:1, WHEN THE 7TH SEAL IS OPENED.

Therefore, THERE'S NO WAY the Church is going thru the tribulation. It's IRONCLAD.

Now, let's go all the way back to Genesis.
God changed Abram's name to Abraham, meaning "Father of a great multitude" [Genesis 17:5].
He promised Abraham [who was childless at the time] that his descendants would be as innumerable as the "stars of heaven" and "the sand of the seashore".
Doesn't Revelation 7:9 tell us this is "a great multitude, which no man could number"?
God made an everlasting [eternal, never-ending] covenant with Abraham. In that covenant He promised Abraham that in his Seed [Jesus Christ] all nations would be blessed.
Doesn't Revelation 7:9 tell us the multitude is made up of people "from all nations, kindreds, people and tongues"?
God's going out of His way here to show us how the promise he made to Abraham will be fulfilled in exact detail.
This multitude is the raptured Church. It's the literal fulfillment of the promise God made Abraham 4,000 years ago.
The promise God made to Abraham in the first book of the Bible [Genesis], is literally and wonderfully fulfilled in the last book, Revelation.
Is God faithful, or what?
Isn't he wonderful? Isn't he awesome?
Isn't he worthy of all ADORATION and praise? To him be glory forevermore!
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Galatians 3:16 "now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. . . To [Abraham's] Seed which is Christ".
Galatians 3:29 and if you are Christ's [if you belong to Jesus] then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
How did that great multitude, Abraham's seed, the Church of Jesus Christ, get raptured to heaven?
Revelation 7:14 they "washed their robes, and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb".
They were in Christ Jesus. They are Abraham's seed. They inherited the promise.
Where will you spend the coming tribulation??? Will you be in heaven with Christ and his saints? ... Or, will you be on earth enduring horrible judgments and the rule of Antichrist???
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Jack Kelly is outstanding and I think he nails it here.

The real problem is "christians" calling other christians "devils" and rediculous things like that over it. It's way too late for this to be the focus.

For you mad max mid/pre-wrath/post christians where is ANY instruction about what to do during trib? There is none because the church isn't here.

Pray to be accounted worthy to escape these things...
 Quoting: Revo/elation



AMEN!
Excellent!!!
hf
ceawaves

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07/26/2011 08:31 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No one is getting an early check out..
david
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07/26/2011 08:32 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
first you tried to convert every one by the sword in the crusades ...that didn't work. then you tortured heretics to death in the inquisition ...that was gruesome but failed .... then you burned witches at the stake, charming but also lame, now you're just trying to bore people into submission.
antikythera

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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
raphatch
The wolves among you will devour the sheep.
:orbsig: :ninjalapirate:
Art Homepage, [link to pondcypress.deviantart.com]
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Anonymous Coward
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07/26/2011 08:36 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475203


Unbelievers won't read it. ONLY those with "ears to hear" will care about this spiritual Truth from the Lord...
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


Five of the Ten virgins had ears to hear. And they went out to meat the Bridegroom.

Sadly, the other Five did not.
 Quoting: Troubled Waters...


Yeah, unfortunately, you're correct. Unbelievers of this VERY soon to end age are just as spiritually blind and deaf, EXACTLY mirroring those that lived at the end of Noah's age. We've given our Lord's warning to them just like Noah did. All we can do now is pray for them as the sun sets and a midnight comes where NO man can work anymore! There can't be too many "stragglers" left for salvation before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ comes for us and closes that door of grace for seven of the WORST years in human history begins.....sighverysad
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


Thats a load of yet again, insulting shit and yet again the deluded ignorance of a typical christian thinking that because you dont believe in Jesus means you can not possibly be spiritual.

I hope there is a Rapture, just to get you lot to fuck off of this planet.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Jack Kelly,

Your grammar reflects your ignorance.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No one is getting an early check out..
 Quoting: ceawaves


We are!
ceawaves

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07/26/2011 08:48 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No one is getting an early check out..
 Quoting: ceawaves


We are!
 Quoting: Troubled Waters...


its a tool used to keep you blinded to the times we are already in.
david
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
nothing i like better, than a rambling diatribe with my morning coffee.
ceawaves

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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
nothing i like better, than a rambling diatribe with my morning coffee.
 Quoting: david 1404180


makes for the start of a good day..;)
KimsThankful

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07/26/2011 08:51 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Amen! Thank you for posting this! hugs
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No ones readin' that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475203


Unbelievers won't read it. ONLY those with "ears to hear" will care about this spiritual Truth from the Lord...
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


only those that are brain washed and a part of your cult will even give a shit..
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
The Rapture theory (And I'm not saying there isn't going to be a Rapture) is a useless distraction. What matters is is your soul prepared for death? Because you might not live another moment never mind being in a Rapture.
CAC
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
Some body asked me a great question the other day. “Does Scripture actually promise a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or is it just an opinion passed along from teacher to student?” Then he challenged me to cite even one Bible verse that would lead a person to believe the Pre-Trib position if they hadn’t already heard about it from some Bible teacher. He said that in all his studies he’s not been able to find one. Let’s see if he’s right.

First, Some General Points

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. Membership in the Church and therefore participation in the Rapture is contingent upon having personally accepted the Lord’s death as payment in full for your sins. While His death actually purchased full pardons for everyone, we each have to personally ask to have ours activated. Everyone who asks for salvation receives an unconditional, irrevocable “Yes!” (Matt. 7:7-8, John 3:16, Ephes. 1:13-14) For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. (2 Corinth. 1:20)

It’s Greek To Me

And finally, although cynics can truthfully say that the word Rapture doesn’t appear in any passage of Scripture, the statement is not correct in its intent. Rapture is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (One of the earliest translations of the Bible was into Latin, and the word rapture comes from there.) Its Greek equivalent is harpazo, which is found in the Greek text of 1 Thes. 4:17. When they’re translated into English, both words mean “to be caught up, or snatched away.” Harpazo, the word Paul actually used, comes from roots that mean, “to raise from the ground” and” take for oneself” and hints that in doing so the Lord is eagerly claiming us for Himself. So while the Latin word doesn’t appear in our Bibles, the event it describes certainly does. There’s a similar situation with the word Lucifer, also of Latin origin. It doesn’t appear in any of the original texts either, but no one would be naive enough to deny the existence of Satan on such a flimsy basis. With that introduction, let’s go first to the best known of the
Rapture passages.

According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes. 4:15-17)

Most of us are very familiar with these verses. But notice they don’t tell you when the rapture happens, only that it does. Notice also that the Lord doesn’t come all the way to Earth. We meet Him in the clouds and then according to John 14:1-3 go back with Him to where He came from. If this was the 2nd coming, He would be coming here to be where we are, not coming to take us there to be where He is. Paul described the same event in 1 Cor 15:51-52. In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be transformed. There he said that he was disclosing a secret, but the resurrection of the dead was not a secret. It can be found through out the Old Testament. The secret was that some would not die, but would be taken alive into the Lord’s presence following an instantaneous transformation. The rapture happens fast. In one instant we’re walking on Earth and in the very next, we’re in the Kingdom.

By the way, don’t try to use the trumpet reference in verse 52 to pin the timing of the rapture to some other event. Since both the Corinthian passage and the one from Thessalonians describe the same things, it’s safe to assume that the term last trump refers to the fact that the trumpet call of God from 1 Thes. 4:16 will signal the end of the Church Age, at which time the Church will disappear from Earth. So these two references both say that one generation of humans won’t die but will be suddenly changed from our earthly form to our heavenly one. And since both Matt. 24:31 (they’ll gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other) and Rev. 17:14 (with Him will be His called, chosen, and faithful followers) say that we’ll be with the Lord when He returns, this has to happen sometime before the 2nd Coming. And it can’t be just the resurrected believers coming back with Him because the Rapture passages above say that we’ll be changed at the same time as the dead are raised.

So When Does This Happen?

In the New Testament, the clearest indication we get in the timing department is found in 1 Thes. 1:9-10. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. The Greek word translated “from” in this passage is “apo.” Taken literally, it means we’re to be rescued from the time, the place, or any relation to God’s wrath. It denotes both departure and separation. This is supported by 1 Thes. 5:9 that declares, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Some folks are fond of pointing out that you can’t use God’s wrath interchangeably with the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same, they say. And they’re right, the two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. 11-13. God’s wrath is much longer, beginning in Rev. 6, as verse 17 explains. Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture advocates try to deny this but the Scripture is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments. The Bowl Judgments that come later don’t begin the time of His wrath, they conclude it. (Rev. 15:1) Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to disappear before Rev. 6, and that’s why we believe the Rapture takes place in Rev. 4 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Rev.5.

You Be The Judge

Now let’s apply my questioner’s litmus test. Could a believer, sitting alone on the proverbial desert isle with nothing but a Bible and with no pre-conceived ideas, conclude that there’s a pre-trib Rapture just from reading about it, or could he only be led into this position by first hearing someone teach him about it? Well, From Isaiah 13:9-13 and Amos 5:18-20, he would have learned that God is going to judge the Earth for it’s sins in a terrible time called the Day of the Lord when He’ll pour out His wrath on mankind. Reading Matt. 24:21-22 would have told him that this time of judgment would be so bad that if the Lord didn’t put a stop to it no one would survive. But the Lord will put a stop to it by returning in power and glory. Since he would know that the Lord hasn’t returned yet, he would know that God’s wrath is still in the future. When he got to 1 Thes. 1:9-10 he would see a pretty clear statement. Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath. In the “who, what, where, when, and why” methodology of the investigative reporter he would have the Who, (Jesus) the what, (rescues us) and the when (the time of the coming wrath). Reading on he would come to 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and get the where (from Earth to the clouds) and in 1 Thes. 5:9 the why (because we’re not appointed to wrath). From there he would logically conclude that since we’ll be rescued around the time of the coming wrath and since we’re not appointed to wrath, our rescue has to precede it. He could also answer another of the investigative reporter’s questions in 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and that’s how it would happen. The Lord himself will come down from Heaven into our atmosphere and suddenly snatch us away from Earth to join Him there. In chapter 5 he would learn that he would never know the exact timing of this event but only that it would precede the coming wrath. Of course there are many more passages I could reference but I think I’ve made my point and answered the question. In fact I’ll go one step further. I believe that since our hypothetical reader has no one to persuade him differently, he would assume that what he’s reading is to be taken literally. And if that’s the case, then the pre-trib position is the only conclusion he could logically come to, because every other position requires a moderate to massive re-interpretation of Scripture. I contend that left alone to work this out with only the Holy Spirit as his guide he would expect to be raptured before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. You see, God didn’t write the Bible to confuse us, but to inform us. It’s mankind that’s gotten everything all mixed up. If you give the Holy Spirit a clear minded student, uncontaminated by man’s opinions and prejudices, He would bring that person to the understanding of the rapture that’s most consistent with a literal interpretation of Scripture. And that requires a pre-trib rapture.

But Wait, There’s More

While we’re on the topic, there’s another issue that points to a pre-trib Rapture and it comes to us in the form of a clue in 1 Thes. 4:15, right at the beginning of the Rapture passage. Verse 15 opens with the phrase “According to the Lord’s own word.” There simply is no place in the New Testament where Jesus speaks of some being resurrected and some others being transformed to meet the Lord in the air. He never said anything like that, nor does he even imply such a thing. Those who believe they see it in Matt. 24:40-41 first have to ignore the fact that Jesus was explaining events on Earth on the actual day of His return, which would place the Rapture after the 2nd Coming, something no one believes. They also have to ignore the fact that in Matt. 24:40-41 both believers and non-believers are sent somewhere, believers being received unto Him, while non-believers are sent away. You have to research the Greek words translated “taken” (paralambano) and “left” (alphiemi) to realize this, but when you do you’ll see that the English is misleading. No Rapture view includes the disposition of non-believers, nor does it even mention them. By the way, this is a great example of why the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation is so important. Our Bible was mostly written in Hebrew and Greek. Every translation relies on the movement of words from one language to another. This process doesn’t always produce a perfect fit, and so learned men have to make allowances for this and exercise their own judgment from time to time. But men are not perfect. We all have our biases. When it’s an important issue where you want an exact meaning it’s always a good idea to double-check their work. Fortunately we have an incredible tool in the Strong’s Concordance. It contains every Hebrew and Greek word in the Bible with their primary and secondary meanings, how often each word appears in the Bible and what meanings are used in each appearance. You can compare these with the meaning the translators used and see if you agree with their treatment of the passage. By doing this with Matt. 24:40-41, you’ll find that the primary meaning of paralambano is to receive and the primary meaning of alphiemi is to send away. People with a post-trib disposition read 1 Thes. 4:15, and then turned to Matt. 24:40-41 where they saw one group being “taken” and another group being “left” after the end of the Great Tribulation. Assuming that these were the Lord’s own words Paul was referring to, they stopped there. They had seen what they wanted to see. In actuality Matt. 24:40-41 is most likely a preview of the Sheep and Goat judgment of Tribulation survivors. The word taken (received) refers to believers going live into the Kingdom, and the word left (sent away) applies to non-believers who are sent to the place prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matt 25:31-46) Of course none of this pertains to our desert island reader above. The verses I used there are clear enough that they don’t require any research into the original language. So he wouldn’t need a Strong’s Concordance, just his Bible.

What’s Your Point?

So if Jesus never taught about the Rapture, to which of the “Lord’s own words” was Paul referring? Some dismiss the phrase, saying that Paul was speaking of a conversation he had with the Lord that doesn’t appear in Scripture. But I think we deserve a better answer than that. Remember, 1st Thessalonians was probably Paul’s first written communication, undertaken in 51AD. Depending on whose opinion you accept, Matthew’s Gospel was either just being written or was still nearly 10 years away. Those who give it an early date say it was written to the Jews in Jerusalem and may even have been written in Hebrew. In any case neither it nor any other Gospel was yet in wide distribution. (Mark’s Gospel, the other candidate for earliest one written, doesn’t contain an equivalent to Matt 24:40-41.) So if Paul was referring to Scripture, as I believe he was, it had to be the Old Testament. Yes, like everything else in God’s plan, you’ll find hints of the Rapture even in the Old Testament. Look at this passage from Isaiah 26:19-21. But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Notice how the pronouns change from second person when God speaks of His people to third person when He speaks of the people of the Earth. It means the two groups are different. Those called “my people” are told to “enter your rooms” (the rooms of John 14:1-3?) because the others, called “the people of Earth” are going to be punished for their sins in a period of time called His Wrath. Sound familiar? (Note: the Hebrew word translated “go” in the phrase “Go my people” is translated “come” in some translations, recalling the command to John in Revelation 4, “Come up here!” But the word has another primary meaning and it’s my favorite. It means vanish. “Vanish, my people!” Yes we will.) Not by any stretch of the imagination has this passage been literally fulfilled. It’s an End Times prophecy that promises a resurrection of the dead and hiding of God’s people while God’s Wrath is unleashed on the people of Earth for their sins. And it was written 2750 years ago. The hiding of the Jews in the desert on Earth at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 12:14) cannot be considered as a fulfillment of this passage because no resurrection accompanies it. (The resurrection of Old Testament believers takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 12:2)) Of course, no one knows for sure that this is the passage Paul referred to, but as evidence of its influence on him, let’s compare it with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. Isaiah : But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Paul: The dead in Christ will rise first . Isaiah : Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. Paul: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Isaiah : See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Paul: While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. The wording is a little different, but it sure looks to me like they’re describing the same event.

And Still More

There are other sound theological reasons why the Church will be raptured before the End Times judgments begin. One is that the Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate, never dealing with both at the same time (Acts 15: 13-18) If the primary purpose of Daniel’s 70th week is to finish fulfilling the six promises to Israel in Daniel 9:24, then the Church has to disappear. Another is that the Church was purified at the cross at which time all the punishment due us was born by the Lord Himself. From that time forward the Church is considered by God to be as righteous as He is (2 Cor 5:17 & 21) The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is unscriptural and denies the Lord’s completed work on the cross. And third, the stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations. (Jeremiah 30:1-11) The Church isn’t destined for either of these outcomes. There are also several subtle clues that on their own can’t be used to support the pre-trib position, but which underscore the validity of the clear passages I’ve just cited. Take for instance the fact that Enoch, who bears a great similarity to the Church, disappeared before the Great Flood, that the angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear, and that Daniel was missing from the story of the fiery furnace, a model of the Great Tribulation. When the Lord described His coming in Luke 17:26-29 He said that it would be both like the days of Noah (some will be preserved through the accompanying judgments) and the days of Lot (some will taken away before them). And what about the promise He made to the Church in Philadelphia that he would keep us out of the “hour” of trial coming on the whole world. (Rev. 3:10) Is that the same as the “hour” of Babylon’s destruction in Rev. 18? But being asked to cite verses that didn’t require any prior knowledge I picked two that are clearest to me, 1 Thes. 1:9-10 and Isaiah 26: 19-21. And so by the testimony of two witnesses, one in the Old Testament and one in the New, we see the physical separation of believers from non-believers preceding the time of Judgment. And by the testimony of two witnesses a thing shall be established. (Deut. 19:15) Of course some won’t be convinced until we show them a verse that says the rapture will precede the Great Tribulation in those exact words. Obviously, such a verse doesn’t exist. I guess we’ll just have to wait and explain it to them on the way up.

[link to gracethrufaith.com]
 Quoting: Jack Kelly 1271077








No one is disputing the Rapture/harpazzo/catching away, etc. as outlines in 1 Thes 4:15 - 17. The issue of it's timing is what's at odds.. No where in the bible does it say that the rapture will be pre-trib. No way in the bible does it indicate that the saints will be taken to heaven for 7 years and then return with Christ. The bible clearly teaches according to Thessalonians that the Rapture will occur at the "Last Trump". That to me indicates that the last trump is the last of the seven trumpet blasts of Revelations, which ends the tribulation. The rapture is a meeting in the air with Christ to receive of spiritual bodies. I would assume that shortly thereafter, we will return with him to earth.
Anonymous Coward
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07/26/2011 09:59 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No one is getting an early check out..
 Quoting: ceawaves


We are!
 Quoting: Troubled Waters...


its a tool used to keep you blinded to the times we are already in.
 Quoting: ceawaves


No it isn't. It's a tool to unblind you in the times we are living in.

There is a way out... And it is through the precious Blood of Jesus Christ.
Anonymous Coward
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07/26/2011 10:17 AM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
With trump of God and a loud shout from heaven?Doesn't sound very secret to me folks yet again I'm post trib.
CHRISTian
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07/26/2011 12:10 PM
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Re: Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
No one is getting an early check out..
 Quoting: ceawaves


Speak for yourself! Those of us will continue to have our hope in the "Blessed Hope", whether you like it or not!cool2
CHRISTian
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07/26/2011 12:16 PM
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Amen! Thank you for posting this! hugs
 Quoting: KimsThankful


Same here. God bless you and all that find comfort in this message!hfgrouphug
CHRISTian
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07/26/2011 12:21 PM
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With trump of God and a loud shout from heaven?Doesn't sound very secret to me folks yet again I'm post trib.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763117


Only those that are TRULY born-again will hear that trump/shout from God Himself. "Like a THIEF in the night", remember? Only those who are looking/watching for Jesus will hear it...horn2
Eliyah
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07/26/2011 12:32 PM
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THERE IS NO SUCH TEACHING IN SCRIPTURE!!!

Just like every other "pre-trib rapture" teacher, you twist words, take things out of context, add things that are not even in the text, and then force this nonsense upon the unlearned.

How sad. You know, those that teach will receive greater scrutiny from the Master, so I would tread lightly.

[link to shofarofeliyah.com]

I used to believe the same bullshit you are peddling, until I started reading in CONTEXT!!!

Cry out to YHVH/YaHWeH for His truth and when He reveals it to you, teshuvah/repent, and get on with your new adventure. Be like Shaul/Paul and count all the other stuff you were taught as shit and get back to the simple Scriptures in CONTEXT, it will be so liberating.

Shalom,

Eliyah
Anonymous Coward
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With trump of God and a loud shout from heaven?Doesn't sound very secret to me folks yet again I'm post trib.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763117


Only those that are TRULY born-again will hear that trump/shout from God Himself. "Like a THIEF in the night", remember? Only those who are looking/watching for Jesus will hear it...horn2
 Quoting: CHRISTian 1482383


I choice to be one of the Five virgins, that kept oil in their lamps and was watching for the bridegroom.

When the bridegroom came, Five went to be with the Lord, and the other Five were left behide.





GLP