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God does not play dice

 
Whateveverman
User ID: 1285646
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08/05/2011 10:37 PM
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God does not play dice
No proof of free will. Like clocks we tick with everything around us. Anybody have a good argument?
AtlasShrugged

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08/05/2011 10:45 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
You can have free will and God's devine plan coexist. There is no conflict between the two.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/05/2011 10:49 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
You can have free will and God's devine plan coexist. There is no conflict between the two.
 Quoting: AtlasShrugged


Wouldn't they be one and the same?
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 10:49 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
God has loaded dice.
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 10:50 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Tough one OP.

How can I possibly understand something which clearly operates many dimensions above my capability of understanding.

Foreknowledge and predestination seem to suggest things were preordained. But does that necessarily mean choice was removed. Or that the cast was selected and the play is now in motion.

Maybe we all just have very bad memories and we all have already made our decision (before the foundation of the world) and are here to play the role we are meant to play.

Tough call. From a mans perspective, things appear as free will. But I could stick an ant in a box and he can wander where ever he wishes (free will), but not outside the box I placed him in.

I suppose we will all know in the end.

peace,
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 10:50 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
we have freewill, just 'God' knows what we will 'decide' before we do
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 10:52 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Tough one OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Whatever the answer for man is, I could not agree more with the title...

God does not play dice.

peace,
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1285646
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08/05/2011 10:57 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Tough one OP.

How can I possibly understand something which clearly operates many dimensions above my capability of understanding.

Foreknowledge and predestination seem to suggest things were preordained. But does that necessarily mean choice was removed. Or that the cast was selected and the play is now in motion.

Maybe we all just have very bad memories and we all have already made our decision (before the foundation of the world) and are here to play the role we are meant to play.

Tough call. From a mans perspective, things appear as free will. But I could stick an ant in a box and he can wander where ever he wishes (free will), but not outside the box I placed him in.

I suppose we will all know in the end.

peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Short answer is we can't obviously see beyond our physical limitations. But, the sliver we do see, seems to suggest, a very mechanical universe, very precise in all movements and actions, but the wild card remains .. consciousness.
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 11:03 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Tough one OP.

How can I possibly understand something which clearly operates many dimensions above my capability of understanding.

Foreknowledge and predestination seem to suggest things were preordained. But does that necessarily mean choice was removed. Or that the cast was selected and the play is now in motion.

Maybe we all just have very bad memories and we all have already made our decision (before the foundation of the world) and are here to play the role we are meant to play.

Tough call. From a mans perspective, things appear as free will. But I could stick an ant in a box and he can wander where ever he wishes (free will), but not outside the box I placed him in.

I suppose we will all know in the end.

peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Short answer is we can't obviously see beyond our physical limitations. But, the sliver we do see, seems to suggest, a very mechanical universe, very precise in all movements and actions, but the wild card remains .. consciousness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1285646


Thanks for your reply,

Most definite order. Such precise order that I suspect the more physicists are beginning to understand about the sustaining parameters of life and the universe, the more they are persuaded of intelligence. The maths and statistics are beyond chance. Well beyond.

Wild card you say? Wild for who? us? surely.

Wild for God? I suspect he operates from the null hypothesis. Nothing is wild to Him. No outlyers. No statistics. No black swans.

IMHO.

peace,
Anonymous Coward
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08/05/2011 11:03 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
You can have free will and God's devine plan coexist. There is no conflict between the two.
 Quoting: AtlasShrugged


Yea...you are free to do as he tells you
AtlasShrugged

User ID: 1346441
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08/05/2011 11:20 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Here is how i perceive it....



Ok...lets assume that God is Omnicient.


If he know each person's nature he can place that person on Earth in anytime, on any continent, into any family, in any situtation. He knows what your actions will be in response to that particular stimulus. He knows this in advance so he places you in a particular location (time and place) where you will accomplish his will.

The person being good, evil or somewhere inbetween...that particular person was placed in that "body" to help accomplish his greater plan but it does not impact your ability to make your own free choice.

He writes history (His story) without writing a set script for arbitrary actors to play out "his will", if he did there would be no "free will". He places the actors, where necessary, so that his history is made manifest.

He forces none not even the angels. They have free will also.

"Omnicient" is the key.
zizo
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08/05/2011 11:24 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
we have freewill, just 'God' knows what we will 'decide' before we do
 Quoting: Sugarelf


this
Whateveverman (OP)
User ID: 1285646
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08/05/2011 11:36 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
Toys Winding Down?
Or is shit so big we cant even comprehend it?
Are we just animals without technology? Or is there more to it?
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
08/05/2011 11:48 PM
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Re: God does not play dice
The explanation I like to give people if they ask is that is is like a mouse in a maze in a lab experiment. We can see the entirety of the possibilities, but the mouse is able to choose it's own way. We can intervene if we want, inserting walls or pulling them out, and we can do so out of range of the immediate view of the mouse, so it doesn't even know we did anything.

That is free will within the confines of determinism, in my mind. In this temporally linear world we can choose, but outside of this world, this existence, the reach of our eyes and ears even, things are already set.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 12:00 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
The explanation I like to give people if they ask is that is is like a mouse in a maze in a lab experiment. We can see the entirety of the possibilities, but the mouse is able to choose it's own way. We can intervene if we want, inserting walls or pulling them out, and we can do so out of range of the immediate view of the mouse, so it doesn't even know we did anything.

That is free will within the confines of determinism, in my mind. In this temporally linear world we can choose, but outside of this world, this existence, the reach of our eyes and ears even, things are already set.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1314600


Set indeed. To what end?
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2011 12:03 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Here is how i perceive it....



Ok...lets assume that God is Omnicient.


If he know each person's nature he can place that person on Earth in anytime, on any continent, into any family, in any situtation. He knows what your actions will be in response to that particular stimulus. He knows this in advance so he places you in a particular location (time and place) where you will accomplish his will.

The person being good, evil or somewhere inbetween...that particular person was placed in that "body" to help accomplish his greater plan but it does not impact your ability to make your own free choice.

He writes history (His story) without writing a set script for arbitrary actors to play out "his will", if he did there would be no "free will". He places the actors, where necessary, so that his history is made manifest.

He forces none not even the angels. They have free will also.

"Omnicient" is the key.
 Quoting: AtlasShrugged


Thanks for sharing. Interesting thoughts.

peace,
Whateveverman (OP)
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08/06/2011 12:16 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Why would atoms even come together to make life? Whats the chances there? Why is so easy? Is matter alive?
Whateveverman (OP)
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08/06/2011 12:20 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Bump for thinkers....
Astræa

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08/06/2011 12:30 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Yes - everything is alive

and most of this is highly sentient, and self aware.


including Love herself... most everything you have been told or read is a lie.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 12:59 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Yes - everything is alive

and most of this is highly sentient, and self aware.


including Love herself... most everything you have been told or read is a lie.
 Quoting: Astræa


How do you know?
Whateveverman (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:02 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
What are people, why are people?
alpha>me<omega

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08/06/2011 01:22 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
I look at all the galaxies in the universe as gods petri dishes. Traveling from galaxy to galaxy may be pretty damn impossible. Might have been designed that way as to not mess with his experiments. Gods looking for something.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:23 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
tick tock tick tick tock tick tock computers we build, computers we are.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:24 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
I look at all the galaxies in the universe as gods petri dishes. Traveling from galaxy to galaxy may be pretty damn impossible. Might have been designed that way as to not mess with his experiments. Gods looking for something.
 Quoting: alpha>me<omega


A grand experiment? Could be..
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:27 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Look at the sky. Theres alot of stuff out there. Mass to energy. Then what?
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2011 01:43 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Why would atoms even come together to make life? Whats the chances there? Why is so easy? Is matter alive?
 Quoting: Whateveverman 1285646


Our universe (which may be one of many, although we can't presently and perhaps never can prove it) is a sub-quantum hologram, with many levels of structural abstraction--ranging from the minimal quanta of information--subqubits, if you will--up to our entire universe. What we generally construe as "life" covers a range of structural abstractions. Although it's only crudely analogous, you might think of it as the information complexity analog to the way visible (to unaided human eyes) light spectrum spans a range of electromagnetic vibratory frequencies. All phenomena in our universe are part of the hologram.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:48 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Why would atoms even come together to make life? Whats the chances there? Why is so easy? Is matter alive?
 Quoting: Whateveverman 1285646


Our universe (which may be one of many, although we can't presently and perhaps never can prove it) is a sub-quantum hologram, with many levels of structural abstraction--ranging from the minimal quanta of information--subqubits, if you will--up to our entire universe. What we generally construe as "life" covers a range of structural abstractions. Although it's only crudely analogous, you might think of it as the information complexity analog to the way visible (to unaided human eyes) light spectrum spans a range of electromagnetic vibratory frequencies. All phenomena in our universe are part of the hologram.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 973305


But we are very real. More real than things without memory. There it is. If you get it you know.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 01:53 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Why would atoms even come together to make life? Whats the chances there? Why is so easy? Is matter alive?
 Quoting: Whateveverman 1285646


Our universe (which may be one of many, although we can't presently and perhaps never can prove it) is a sub-quantum hologram, with many levels of structural abstraction--ranging from the minimal quanta of information--subqubits, if you will--up to our entire universe. What we generally construe as "life" covers a range of structural abstractions. Although it's only crudely analogous, you might think of it as the information complexity analog to the way visible (to unaided human eyes) light spectrum spans a range of electromagnetic vibratory frequencies. All phenomena in our universe are part of the hologram.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 973305


But we are very real. More real than things without memory. There it is. If you get it you know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1285646


Consciousness=memory=sentient, to remember what happened is to have a soul. Without this maybe we are just animals?
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2011 01:54 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Traveling from galaxy to galaxy may be pretty damn impossible.

 Quoting: alpha>me<omega


From inside the dynamic hologram, that may be the case. It's possible to effect such travel from outside it, but that requires a good relationship with the holographer.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2011 01:59 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
But we are very real. More real than things without memory. There it is. If you get it you know.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1285646


By abstraction, I don't mean unreal; I refer to relative levels of information complexity in the dynamic hologram.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2011 02:00 AM
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Re: God does not play dice
Traveling from galaxy to galaxy may be pretty damn impossible.

 Quoting: alpha>me<omega


From inside the dynamic hologram, that may be the case. It's possible to effect such travel from outside it, but that requires a good relationship with the holograph er.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 973305


Im pretty sure if were made of electrons swirling around some protons well .. you figure it out





GLP