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Message Subject A Christian's opinion about Atheists arguments against the existence of God. (Discussion thread)
Poster Handle KlLLUMINATI
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Before I start off I would like to mention a few things. This is not a hate thread and it's not my intention to start a big fight between Christians and atheists. I hope we can keep this thread peaceful and mature. If you want to express your opinion and start a discussion that's fine, as long as it doesn't go out of control. Remember, keep it civilized and mature. If you, while reading this post, get the impression that I mock atheists or being disrespectful to them, forgive me if it comes off like that. It is not my intention to hate anyone or to be disrespectful. I hope this thread will generate dozens of pages filled with interesting posts. Also, it would mean a lot to me if you read this entire post. I just don't like when people post something and they haven't read anything. They see a Christian making a thread and they instantly post "retarded Christian!" or other immature stuff. As I said, it would mean the world to me if you read this entire post. I just feel like this is a very important thread for me to make and as a Christian I feel obligated to spread this message. Don't look at this thread as "...another Bible thumping thread" because it is not, although a few Bible quotes are inevitable to appear from time to time. :D

Alright, I got that out of my chest. Let us begin! What exactly defines atheism? Atheism really is nothing. Many people see atheism as logical and critical thinking and other people see atheism as a way of living by your own rules and to seek yourself. The general definition is simply; "not believing in a God". This is what atheists believe, right? That's alright with me. You have a free mind and you get to choose whatever you want to believe in. I have no problem with that. However, I tend to disagree with some of the things atheists say and this thread is simply to answer some arguments atheists frequently use as a way to "disprove" God. If you disagree with me on the stuff I'm about to write feel free to start a discussion. (Remember... civilized!)

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CONTENTS:

​1) Atheist: Who created God?

2) Atheist: God does not exist?

3) Atheist: The existence of God is illogical!

4) Atheist: Can God create a rock...

5) Atheist: Prove God!

6) Atheist: I only believe in what I can see and touch.

7) God is spiritual and is proved with spiritual methods.

8) Logical proof of God.

9) Einstein and Strindberg. Wise men!
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1) Atheist: Who created God?

I hear this argument all the time! Atheist use this argument frequently to disprove the existence of God. I understand the argument, I do, but there are many flaws. First of all, the question "who created God?" ASSUMES that God is limited. It assumes that God has a beginning and will therefor have an end. But the God of the Bible doesn't have a limit, He doesn't have a beginning and an end. God was never created because He does not consist of the unaware created matter, but by the aware eternal spiritual energy. Besides, God can't have been created by someone else, because God by definition is FIRST, the reason of all cause! God was first. How on Earth's name can the first one be created? That's like asking "what letter comes before A?".

THE CREATER COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CREATED BECAUSE IN THAT CASE HE WOULDN'T BE THE CREATOR!

God is outside of His Creation. He is outside of our universe. God created time, space and matter and God is OUTSIDE of all that. There is no time where God is, only eternity. God simply just is. He hasn't been created. And strangely enough, the atheist never ask themself the same question about Big Bang. Where did Big Bang come from? Big Bang, according to the text books, created everything in the universe. It therefor created time, space and matter as well. Which came first? Without space, where do you put matter? Without time, WHEN do you put matter? You see how time, space and matter must have been created at the EXACT same time? Big Bang teaches us that everything created itself out of absolutely nothing. Let me ask you this. How did Big Bang explode? Where did the energy for this explosion come from? Out of nowhere? Where did time, space and matter come from? Out of nowhere? For some reason, people really believe Big Bang occured. People seriously believe that everything in existence created itself out of absolutely nothing.

The universe must have an original cause!
There has to be a first original cause otherwise the universe wouldn't exist. Matter can't be the first cause becase life, awareness and intelligence can simply not plop out of lifeless matter. Matter cannot have created itself. To believe that matter is the original cause of the universe is the same as believing that mud is the cause of the crock. By practical experience every human knows that there's NOTHING which can create itself out of nothing. Mud had a creator. Believing that something can create itself is a stupid fable and only narrow minded atheists will believe that. (Sorry for being a tad harsh but it's true)

Not believing in an original first cause which created our universe is as stupid as believing that everything we see around us came out of nothingness.
God is in His original spiritual shape forever in the spiritual world, in God's kingdom, which was never created and will never be gone. Humans are just by nature greedy and full of pride. We want to be God's ourselves, we want to follow our own rules. The suffering in this world is a wake up call for all of us to realize that we do not belong here in this world full of evil of pain.
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2) Atheist: God does not exist!

That is a definite assumption, an absolute. Only someone who's all knowing can come with definite assumptions like that. Are you all knowing? By saying something like that you sure make it seem like that. In that case, you're God! Because you know EVERYTHING there is!
But no man knows everything, we know very little in ratio to what there is to know. But let's just assume for one moment that you know 50% of everything. That's a lot of knowledge. What if God exists on the other side, the other 50%?
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3) Atheist: The existence of God is illogical.

If you think that it's illogical for God to exist, did you ever stop to think the same thing about yourself? Do you think it's logial for you to exist? Why is your own existence more logial than God's? To believe that our own existence came about without an existing cause is the same as believing that sunrays can exist without the sun.
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4) Atheist: Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it Himself? And if he can't lift it, he's not almighty.

God is so almighty that He can expand Himself in two seperate shapes in which he lifts the rock in one, and does not lift the rock in the other shape. Besides, God is infinitely strong so it's a piece of cake for Him to lift a rock which is infinitely heavy.
If I would ask you to draw a square triangle what would you do? Would you take out your pencil and draw one? No you wouldn't because you know that a triangle per definition has three sides, not four. To draw a "square triangle" says nothing about your ability to draw triangles (or squares) because a "square triangle" is simply a nonsense expression I made up by puttin two words together. A rock so heavy no one can lift it is the same nonsense expression because a rock is per definition an object with a weight and can always be lifted assuming you're strong enough. To talk about a "rock to heavy for anyone to lift" is just as much nonsense as a square triangle. The "argument" is not a proper argument against God or his Almightyness, it's just a game with words. It's a logical contradiction, which is indeed pretty funny, but it does not hold up as an argument.
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5) Atheist: Prove God!

Atheists always demand God to appear Himself in front of their eyes before they will start believing. This is simply pride and God does not answer prideful challenges just as much as the President of USA would pay you a visit without you giving him any worthy qualifications which caught his attention. Ask yourself this: Do you, as an atheist, deserve to have a personal visit by the Almighty? What are your qualifications? When you can't even get the President of USA to pay you a visit, what makes you think God would appear in His all Greatness in front of your very eyes? It's the opposite. Atheists despise God, they spit on Him and do not want to get rid of their illusion that God does not exist. They want it to stay that way and because God does not interfere with the free will, the atheist will never feel the presence of God until he change his attitude. For the atheist, God will prove His existence when it's too late, when you're dead.
You cannot *see* God until you *realize*. Remember that. You must realize that God is essential and that His existence is the foundation of everything that is. First *realize* then *see*. If you cannot realize that the existence of God is essential for the universe to exist, how can we ever prove to such a blind person the existence of God when he doesn't have a clue about God's spiritual nature, looks and personality. You can never prove or convince an atheist about God or anything other that's spiritual because that atheist is spiritual blind.
This is like proving a color for someone who's blind.
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6)Atheist: I only believe in what I can see and touch.

Can you see, hear or touch your thoughts?
Can you see, hear or touch your intelligence?
Can you see, hear or touch your conciousness?

No, you can't. There are phenomenon in this world which cannot be perceived with our physical senses. That's just the way it is. Because you don't really believe you're thoughtless, without a concious and an IQ with a negative value? I thought so. That's all I have to say. :D
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7) God is spiritual and is proved with spiritual methods.

God is outside of the capabilites of science because God is spiritual and eternal and is not bound by time and matter as we are. He created a world accessable for scientific methods, but He is beyond it. This is not a weakness for a belief in Creation, just a limitation within science. The definition of science is gathering information by observing and experimenting, and from this make logical conclusions. God created a world which we can define by science. But He Himself cannot be defined in the same way. We can't see Him in a microscope or a telescope because He is outside of His Creation and by using material instruments to find Him is useless. God is not material, He's spiritual all through and God is therefor not a part of our scientific competency which only deals with the material part of reality.
Science is a method, formulated by man, to study the physical reality. There's absolutely NOTHING which says (more than your own pride) that there isn't anything beyond our physical reality.

MATERIAL phenomenon can only be proven by MATERIAL methods!
SPIRITUAL phenomenon can only be proven by SPIRITUAL methods!

God's existence can only be found in the spiritual dimension which means that all of the atheists attempts to find Him with material methods have all been in vain and will forever fail. God can be found in our hearts and He will never leave our hearts. But to see, hear, experience or feel Him in our hearts is only possible when your heart is completely pure and washed away from all your sins. You just need to humble yourself and be sincere, first then will the proof come to you. You cannot find proof by using a binocular or measuringtape :D
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8​) Logical proof of God.

Perfection in the Creation:

How can it be that everything is so perfect? Everything is just so balanced and it's just simply amazing. The human body is so complex that scientists can't even explain half of how it works. Many interactions in nature are hard to explain without a "Creator". The whole Creation shows that there must be some form of logic behind it all. For many people, the perfection of our planet and the universe is proof enough.

The quest for the meaning of life:

Humans always needs something to live for because it's not enough to just exist. For some reason we always seek some form of a meaning. It's like we lost our meaning of life and since then we try to find it again in a way or another. Someone can give us the meaning of life, this Someone has to be God. The need for a meaning of life is a clue or proof that God exists.

The innver void:

Sometimes we speak of an inner void in humans, something which is missing. There are surprisingly many people who feel like there's something missing. Why do we have that feeling of emptiness? This emptiness came when we decided not to have anything to do with God. When you seek God it's just like this emptiness is replaced with a meaning. It's the same for all believers in God and this is a clue or proof that God exists.

The personal experience of God:

You often hear believers say: "I've experienced God". So many people can witness about the presence of God that it simply cannot be made up. This presence of God is mutual for all believers and something like that would have been impossible if God was just a made up person. Faith is a conviction of things you do not see.
The whole universe just seems so perfectly calibrated to make life possible. For this to be the work of Mr. Coincidence a.k.a. Big Bang is something only dopey, foggy theorists believe in. Just take your eyes as an example. Each eye has 110 million pixels each. Only someone as brilliant as God can come up with something that genius!
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9) Einstein and Strindberg. Wise men!

"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." Albert Einstein

"It's just as illogical to believe in the world but deny God, as it is to believe in the shoe but deny the shoemaker" August Strindberg
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What​ do you say folks? Hopefully this got you thinking a little bit. The Bible mentions how humans will behave during the end times. Humans will be lovers of themselves in the end times according to the Bible. Does that not fit the world today? Go to any gym and you'll see a guy standing in front of a mirror looking at his muscles and his clean shaved, tanned body. Humans will also walk after their own lust. Surely our world today is lustful, more than ever. We are living in the end times folks. Last chapters of revelations are coming true. The human behaviour today fits perfectly with end times scripture. Also, natural disasters have increased alot the past 100 years! A lot! There's also a lot of tensions between many of the strongest nations on Earth and the Bible says that there will be rumors of wars (WW3). And the past 100 years we've seen a huge increase in technology and the Bible mentions a period in human history where this would happen!

Well... this is all I had for now. God bless anyone who actually read this far! I'm sorry if there are any spelling or grammar mistakes. I'm only a 19 year old kid from Sweden so my English vocabulary is limited. The sentence structure might also be flawed here and there but it's really late here in Sweden and I wrote this pretty quickly.
I can go on and on how my life has changed since I found Jesus Christ when I was about 17 years old, but I think I will pass on that actually. Needless to say, my life changed for the better. No emptiness, no depression and no hate in my body. I just feel happy and pure, it's an awesome feeling! The free gift of salvation cannot do you any harm! Why not accept the gift Jesus Christ gave us when he sacrificed Himself for us? Don't know what to do? Read this website: [link to christianity.about.com]

If you do what the link above says, and you're sincere about it then you're saved. Your soul is not damned any longer. But why stop there? Why not go out there and spread the word about Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation? Find out what His will is and do it! Live a great life, hate no one, fear no one, love thy Lord, read scriptures, talk to the Lord every day by praying and as mentioned, win souls to Christ!
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Still not sure what to make of all this? I recommend you check out my other thread about Kent Hovind. His seminars are simply AMAZING! Words cannot describe how amazing they are. His seminars alone must have saved thousands and thousands of souls. Simply amazing.

Thread: Kent Hovind. Spread the word.
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 Quoting​: Vinyard


Transcript from my last debate

Argument from design:

My opponent stated "Argument from design this is largely unfalsifiable..."

There is belief that intelligent design is unscientific because it is unfalsifiable or untestable and no empirical evidence can count against it. This is false. Of course theres no way to falsify a assertion that a cosmic designer exists. This much we can agree on. But contemporary design arguments focus not on such vague claims, but on detectible evidence for design in the natural world. Therefore the design arguments currently in use are falsifiable. Consider the argument that Michael Behe makes in his book Darwins Black Box(great read btw). He proposes that design is detectable in many molecular machines,including bacterial flagellum for example. Behe argues that this tiny motor needs all its parts to function it is irreducibly complex. Such systems in our experience are a hallmark of designed systems, because they require the foresight that is the exclusive to intelligent agents. Darwin's mechanism of natural selection and random variations, in contrast, requires a functional system at each transition along the way. Natural selection can select for present but not for future function. Notice that Behe's argument rests not on ignorance, but on what we know about designed systems the powers of intelligent agents, and on our growing knowledge of the cellular world and its many mechanisms. How does one test and discredit Behe's argument? Describe a realistic continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor. Darwinists like Kenneth Miller points to the hope of future discoveries, and to the type secretory system as a machine possibly co-opted on the evolutionary path to the flagellum. The argument is riddled with problems, but it shows that Miller, at least, understands perfectly well that Behes argument is testable. Similarly there are websites filled with supposed refutations of contemporary design arguments, many written by scientists using information from the natural world to make their arguments. An argument cant be both open to falsifiability and unfalsifiable at the same time. So contemporary arguments for intelligent design in both biology and the physical sciences are not only testable theyre falsifiable. Therefore, honest commentators should stop claiming that ID is unfalsifiable. The claim itself is falsifiable, and it has been falsified. Its time to move on to other and more pertinent aspects of the debate over intelligent design because this one clearly is no longer valid.

My opponent stated "....A puddle(universe) is not made to contain the water(people)volume of the shape of the puddle, but rather the water fills the puddle." That may be true but the puddle was created/made was it not ?

Science ultimately cannot explain the universes beginnings because it cannot go that far back. Science can only explain what is here now and even that is speculative since we cannot repeat the experiment. We should start with the most basic and general explanation. All design implies a designer this is 100% true all the time. Is it not ?

I would like our audience to ask yourselves which/what is more rational in any aspect of life.

A. Every aspect of your life just exist no rhyme no reason your family your kids the air you breath the water you drink the sun on your face all just happened to be.

or

B. Every aspect of your life was designed to connect us to each other in a specific order that could only be explained by intelligent design.

We will touch on this a little later in this debate.

Morality:

Are we inherently good or evil? Psychologists have some idea of whether or not we are inherently good or bad. Researchers presented four scenarios to 100 babies using puppets. After watching puppets act negatively or positively towards other characters the babies were shown puppets either giving or taking toys from these "good" or "bad" puppets. When prompted to choose their favorite characters babies preferred puppets that were "good" over the "bad" characters. The study shows that babies are born with morality and a strong moral sense. This also shows we are not blank slates at birth. These findings about babies moral notions tell us about adult morality. Some scholars think that the very existence of a moral sense has profound implications. In 1869, Alfred Russel Wallace, who along with Darwin discovered natural selection, wrote that certain human capacities including the higher moral faculties are richer than what you could expect from a product of biological evolution. He concluded that some sort of godly force must intervene to create these capacities.

In his book "Whats So Great About Christianity, the social and cultural critic Dinesh DSouza revived this argument. He conceded that evolution can explain our niceness in instances like kindness to kin, where the niceness has a clear genetic payoff but he drew the line at high altruism, acts of entirely disinterested kindness. For DSouza "there is no Darwinian rationale for why you would give up your seat for an old lady on a bus, an act of nice-guyness that does nothing for your genes. And what about those who donate blood to strangers or sacrifice their lives for a worthy cause? DSouza reasoned that these stirrings of conscience are best explained not by evolution or psychology but by the voice of God within our souls. This does not prove that God exist what it does prove however is that we are born with objective morality.

The universe:

The first cause argument is an argument from the mere fact that a temporal universe exists to the existence of an eternal creator of it. The argument from design as shown above takes a much more detailed look at the universe in search of evidence for Godís existence. That being said we now know that the universe is expanding which points to it having a beginning. But how do we know the universe is expanding? By spotting an exploding star in a distant galaxy, or even measuring the expansion of space-time itself.

*PLEASE VIEW PHOTOS BELOW*

[link to news.discovery.com...]

So we now know that:

1.Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2.The universe has a beginning.
3.Therefore the universe has a cause.

Some atheist claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the nature of science. So this canít be used to prove creation by God. Of course, atheist canít have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.

I look forward to my opponents refutation...........
 
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