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PROFITS

 
JATMON
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User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 01:43 PM
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PROFITS
Claim: The system of profits must be eliminated. Profit-making is incongruent with solving problems. It is always a conflict of interest.

There is little profit in actually SOLVING a problem, rather it's more profitable to perpetuate problems, even to create new ones, so that "solutions" can be offered, for profit. When problems are solved, the profits associated with the problem disappear.

Therefore, there is no incentive to solve problems.

We can no longer afford the perpetuate the appearance of trying to solve problems, when in fact the real agenda is quite the opposite.


Discuss.

coffee
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11685520
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05/05/2012 01:45 PM
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Re: PROFITS
I agree completely. Profit is the true progress stopper on this planet. Because of it many are greedy and don't even realize it.

I'd imagine space travel would be beyond possible if profit was eliminated and progress was put on the pedestal. Something needs to change.
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 02:22 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Take the field of medicine, for one example.

The incentive and motivation to go into medicine should rightly be, the desire to eliminate suffering. Not.. "my rich daddy is willing to pay my way through college if I choose one of two prestigious occupations, medicine or law. Plus he's made a contribution to his alma maters alumni, so I'm pretty much guaranteed a ticket in with paid scholarship, so the easiest thing for me to do is accept his offer."

Once in the field, those with creative ideas for eliminating suffering are harshly punished if they dare to try a non conventional route of healing. You MUST conform to the rigid protocols established by the AMA, and continue to prescribe pharmaceutical solutions. That is all the insurance companies are willing to pay. The "art" aspect of medicine has been completely eliminated and replaced with profit centers.

The doctors have no freedom whatsoever. This keeps the patients coming back for more expensive, profitable "treatments."

That's just one example of how the mechanisms of market based economy is degrading our lives.

I'm sure you can think of many more examples.

I don't know what an alternative economy of exchange would look like, and it's not my job to figure it out, but to point out the flaws inherent in "the system." And this one is glaringly obvious.

No doubt there are many smarter than me who've put some kind of model together by now.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
SPUD

05/05/2012 02:40 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Have you thought through what you are asking for?
Has gov involvement in any aspect of your life made things better or worse? Why do you think so many doctors are saying fuck it and quitting? Gov regulation and intrusion.
That's my take on it.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"
___________
"May your chains rest lightly upon you..."
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
United States
05/05/2012 02:42 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Have you thought through what you are asking for?
Has gov involvement in any aspect of your life made things better or worse? Why do you think so many doctors are saying fuck it and quitting? Gov regulation and intrusion.
That's my take on it.
 Quoting: SPUD


I never said a word about the government. You're reading in.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
SPUD

05/05/2012 02:45 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Everything you are discussing has been screwed over by whom?
It wasn't the "free market" that turned it to shit.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"
___________
"May your chains rest lightly upon you..."
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
United States
05/05/2012 02:46 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Everything you are discussing has been screwed over by whom?
It wasn't the "free market" that turned it to shit.
 Quoting: SPUD


The "free market" is about profits, that's it. Nothing else. It's about maximizing profits, not about solving problems.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11685520
United States
05/05/2012 02:48 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Everything you are discussing has been screwed over by whom?
It wasn't the "free market" that turned it to shit.
 Quoting: SPUD


The "free market" is about profits, that's it. Nothing else. It's about maximizing profits, not about solving problems.
 Quoting: JATMON


A lot of people don't see that around here.... yeahsure
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 02:51 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Everything you are discussing has been screwed over by whom?
It wasn't the "free market" that turned it to shit.
 Quoting: SPUD


The "free market" is about profits, that's it. Nothing else. It's about maximizing profits, not about solving problems.
 Quoting: JATMON


A lot of people don't see that around here.... yeahsure
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11685520


I know. It requires a radically different mindset. Most are still "in the box" and can't get out. Or else they are economically invested and due to preservation of self-interest are bound to rationalize and justify the way things are.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
SPUD

05/05/2012 02:55 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Paint us a picture of your perfect system then, or pick one from history. What are the alternatives as you see them?
Or, is that for greater minds than yourself to do(as stated above).
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"
___________
"May your chains rest lightly upon you..."
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 02:58 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Paint us a picture of your perfect system then, or pick one from history. What are the alternatives as you see them?
Or, is that for greater minds than yourself to do(as stated above).
 Quoting: SPUD


Yes. As I stated, I'm not an economist.

I'm sure there are others who've done that.

Most likely it would contain the best of both capitalism and socialism is my guess.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
United States
05/05/2012 03:03 PM
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Re: PROFITS
In America.. the people have been so brainwashed to be frightened of the word "socialism" that the mere mention of elements derived from socialism cause immediate panic.

Likewise they've been brainwashed into believing that capitalism is godly, moral, and righteous and good, and even God and Jesus would be capitalists, right?

That's why we can't even have a discussion here in America.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
SPUD

05/05/2012 03:05 PM
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Re: PROFITS
You don't have to be an Economist.
They are no brighter than you.
There are root causes to most of the things you see as problems...what screwed it all up, how did we get here?
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"
___________
"May your chains rest lightly upon you..."
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11685520
United States
05/05/2012 03:06 PM
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Re: PROFITS
In America.. the people have been so brainwashed to be frightened of the word "socialism" that the mere mention of elements derived from socialism cause immediate panic.

Likewise they've been brainwashed into believing that capitalism is godly, moral, and righteous and good, and even God and Jesus would be capitalists, right?

That's why we can't even have a discussion here in America.
 Quoting: JATMON


Tell me about it, even giving new suggestions or ideas is horrible. People like it the old way and then complain when it doesn't work it for them in this system of profits. If it's not fair for everyone, then it will never work.
SPUD

05/05/2012 03:16 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Most likely it would contain the best of both capitalism and socialism is my guess.
 Quoting: JATMON


Well, we're there...so enjoy....
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"
___________
"May your chains rest lightly upon you..."
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 03:16 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Paint us a picture of your perfect system then, or pick one from history. What are the alternatives as you see them?
Or, is that for greater minds than yourself to do(as stated above).
 Quoting: SPUD


I am sure there are MANY plans by the brilliant minds already created sitting there collecting dust.

It is more about feasible implementation.

And a new plan will not be implemented until the old plan has failed.

It is nature's way.
 Quoting: Open Your Eyes


But will it then be too late?

Will it take all the forest being destroyed, and all the fish netted from the sea?

Will it take yet another nuclear disaster, and another?
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15567847
United States
05/05/2012 03:33 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Yeah, but the other side of the spectrum is greedy too - but also, that other side is LAZY!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11685520
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05/05/2012 03:39 PM
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Re: PROFITS
It's kind of ridiculous when I hear people here defending the old "free market" and talking about how they don't want their liberties stripped when they are already slaves and are rather greedy in defending this capitalist system that only benefits to a few and screws the rest.

If we're going to have a system that is maintained by order and fairness, might as well make it the best and easiest as possible. Why have to go through all the wars and fake "liberty" people are always referring to around here?

It's why I hate being human sometimes, too many delusional folks in this planet making it hard for those that want true change. Some of us want to travel outer space. We are tired of the games and the wasted time over stupid disagreement and drama. If you want your "free market" then please do us a favor and go do it somewhere else where greed and profit is acceptable.

This society is solely in it's baby steps. It will possibly take another 500 years before anything changes for the positive.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
05/05/2012 03:45 PM
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Re: PROFITS
This society is solely in it's baby steps. It will possibly take another 500 years before anything changes for the positive.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11685520


It won't take that long. :)
 Quoting: Open Your Eyes


Good luck to those that are alive by then. I won't be and who knows if I'll be a living creature in some other planet or whatever. It just sucks that I'm alive now and have to live through this embarrassment. It is sad to know that this society has potential and is not being used to it's fullest.
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 03:51 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Let's face it.. we were sold a lie that America was about something new, a new experiment, when in reality it just a perpetuation of the old Roman model of patronage, a network of wealthy self-interests.

Elitism, favors, payoffs.. etc.

..........

Patronage (clientela) was the distinctive relationship in ancient Roman society between the patronus (plural patroni, "patron") and his client (cliens, plural clientes). The relationship was hierarchical, but obligations were mutual. The patronus was the protector, sponsor, and benefactor of the client; the technical term for this protection was patrocinium.[1] Although typically the client was of inferior social class,[2] a patron and client might even hold the same social rank, but the former would possess greater wealth, power, or prestige that enabled him to help or do favors for the client. Almost every patronus was rich.

Benefits a patron might confer include legal representation in court, loans of money, influencing business deals or marriages, and supporting a client's candidacy for political office or a priesthood. In return, the client was expected to offer his services to his patron as needed. A freedman became the client of his former master. A patronage relationship might also exist between a general and his soldiers, a founder and colonists, and a conqueror and a dependent foreign community.[3]

...

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11685520
United States
05/05/2012 03:58 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Let's face it.. we were sold a lie that America was about something new, a new experiment, when in reality it just a perpetuation of the old Roman model of patronage, a network of wealthy self-interests.

Elitism, favors, payoffs.. etc.

..........

Patronage (clientela) was the distinctive relationship in ancient Roman society between the patronus (plural patroni, "patron") and his client (cliens, plural clientes). The relationship was hierarchical, but obligations were mutual. The patronus was the protector, sponsor, and benefactor of the client; the technical term for this protection was patrocinium.[1] Although typically the client was of inferior social class,[2] a patron and client might even hold the same social rank, but the former would possess greater wealth, power, or prestige that enabled him to help or do favors for the client. Almost every patronus was rich.

Benefits a patron might confer include legal representation in court, loans of money, influencing business deals or marriages, and supporting a client's candidacy for political office or a priesthood. In return, the client was expected to offer his services to his patron as needed. A freedman became the client of his former master. A patronage relationship might also exist between a general and his soldiers, a founder and colonists, and a conqueror and a dependent foreign community.[3]

...

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: JATMON


I couldn't agree more. Time will tell OP if change is possible without destruction or profit being the solution...I don't remember the last person in power that has truly wanted to change things...sad..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6602975
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05/05/2012 04:33 PM
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Re: PROFITS
So, I take it youre not a fan of Ayn Rand?
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/05/2012 04:36 PM
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Re: PROFITS
So, I take it youre not a fan of Ayn Rand?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6602975


No I'm not.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15464787
United States
05/05/2012 05:19 PM
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Re: PROFITS
I think this is a piece of the puzzle.

I think another piece is identification, extrication, and quarantine of the Psychopath, the Malignant, the Sociopath, and the Megalomaniac.

Not all of science, or problem solving is associated wth profits, or diseases of character.

Example Nicola Tesla.

Example Jonas Salk

Salk invented the Polio Vaccine.

When he was asked in a televised interview who owned the patent to the vaccine?

Salk replied: "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun? I feel that the greatest reward for doing is the opportunity to do more. Nothing happens quite by chance."
Anonymous Coward
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05/05/2012 05:23 PM
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Re: PROFITS
So, I take it youre not a fan of Ayn Rand?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6602975


No I'm not.
 Quoting: JATMON


Thats a shame. Barring her "objectivisms" imbalance of spirit or subjectivity...She was a brilliant woman and pretty much articulated the realities of life when it comes to economics and profits...capitalism vs. socialism
JATMON  (OP)

User ID: 13735393
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05/06/2012 10:56 AM
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Re: PROFITS
Bumping for the Sunday crowd.

As I've mulled this over a bit more, it's starting to seem that there ought to be a distinction made between areas where profits are appropriate and where they are not.

I don't see harm in profiting from the production and marketing of harmless goods, even competition.. we get better products that way. I like the new Chinese takeout place down the road better than the old one.. I'm better off because of it, and now they get my $ vote, and they profit.. big deal.

But clearly there are arenas in which profit is inappropriate, and a conflict of interest will naturally arise. Health care is one such example.

And now, there are industries that ought to be described as having become dangerous to the interests of humanity as a whole due to the level of enviromental degradation that's been effected, in the intersts of maximizing profit. Energy is one such area. It's time for the means of energy production to be removed from the hands of private capitalists, and placed under the governance of a world governing council which oversees and regulates ALL world sources of energy.

It's now becoming clear that the means of food production is going the same route.

We can not and should not allow private corporations to buy and own the earth.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Sammie

User ID: 2220559
United States
05/06/2012 11:20 AM

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Re: PROFITS
Profit has more perceived value than anything on earth, including all life.

Disgraceful.


Further, profit is an illusion. It doesn't exist. It's a lie. It's fictional.


Insanity.




There are all kinds of bs arguments that come up when this type of discussion is raised. The two most popular are:

1. So what's the solution? Don't have one? Oh then, stfu.

This argument is so weak. First, you don't have to have the blue prints to utopia to point out flaws in a current system. The fact that you do not have the utopian dream figured out, in no way refutes any claims that you made regarding the flaws mentioned. Flaws are flaws.

Further, in order to even begin to entertain the ideas of a better way of doing things, one must first address what could be improved in the current system. Thus, it necessitates that analyzing and determining the weakness in the current situation MUST PRECEDE the formation of ideas that would be more beneficial.

In short, you must know what a problem is, in order to address it.





2. People are inherently lazy and if they were not forced to work for money, everyone would just lay around waiting for a handout and nothing would get done.


This rebuttal is so lame I literally laugh out loud when I hear it.

We evolved, reproduced, thrived aand created long before the concept of money or profits.
Hell we invented fire. We developed agriculture. We created art and build structures.

The fact that we are alive today proves that man is not inherently lazy or we would have died off eons ago.

It is the currently culture that has created this dependent lazy mind set, the culture of profit.

Mankind are creators. We DO. That's kind of our thing.




The fact that our culture values an illusion over real living beings is pure insanity and anyone who justifies it, is certainly insane.
"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow".  ~Aesop


"Once in a dream I saw a snake swallowing its own tail, it swallowed and swallowed until it got halfway round, and there it stopped and there it stayed, it was stuffed with its own self. Some fix, that.
We only have ourselves to go on, and it’s enough…" -Charles Bukowski



"Grasping at things can only yield one of two results:
Either the thing you are grasping at disappears, or you yourself disappear.
It is only a matter of which occurs first."
-Goenka
T Ceti H.C. Radnarg

User ID: 13005521
United States
05/09/2012 08:33 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Idol1 <<< do you think G stands for Greed or does G stand against Greed,lol.
How unfortunate for some rulers when men,women,and children continue to think... Keep repeating the lies loud enough and long enough and just maybe the people will start to believe the lies again and good luck with that...finding your energy open until mars becomes raging aries...
DOT 2 DOT  (OP)

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09/16/2012 12:30 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Is there a stipulation that lawmakers and those seeking public office and their family members must be divested of any shares in the stock exchange?

Because if there is not, there ought to be, this is an obvious conflict of interest.

One cannot be expected to make sound decisions in the public interest and policy making when one's own financial interests are at stake.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid,
it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill
************
It's much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15788170
United States
09/16/2012 12:51 PM
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Re: PROFITS
Bumping for the Sunday crowd.

As I've mulled this over a bit more, it's starting to seem that there ought to be a distinction made between areas where profits are appropriate and where they are not.

I don't see harm in profiting from the production and marketing of harmless goods, even competition.. we get better products that way. I like the new Chinese takeout place down the road better than the old one.. I'm better off because of it, and now they get my $ vote, and they profit.. big deal.

But clearly there are arenas in which profit is inappropriate, and a conflict of interest will naturally arise. Health care is one such example.

And now, there are industries that ought to be described as having become dangerous to the interests of humanity as a whole due to the level of enviromental degradation that's been effected, in the intersts of maximizing profit. Energy is one such area. It's time for the means of energy production to be removed from the hands of private capitalists, and placed under the governance of a world governing council which oversees and regulates ALL world sources of energy.

It's now becoming clear that the means of food production is going the same route.

We can not and should not allow private corporations to buy and own the earth.
 Quoting: JATMON


Agreed, the necessities of life should not be profit mechanisms... but true free market principles should comprise the luxury/convenience sectors with no corporate subsidies or protections. In things we all need, cooperation. In things we all want, competition.
Anonymous Coward
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09/16/2012 01:07 PM
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Re: PROFITS
If no one had to compete what would motivate ?





GLP