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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 04:43 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
In becoming incarnate and tabernacling among men Christ had greatly humiliated Himself, by choosing to descend into shame and suffering in their acutest forms....In view of this, Christ was now contrasting His situation with that of the Father in the heavenly sanctuary. The Father was seated upon the throne of highest majesty; the brightness of His glory was uneclipsed; He was surrounded by hosts of holy beings, who worshiped Him in uninterrupted praise. Far different was it with His incarnate Son-despised and rejected of men, surrounded by enemies, soon to be nailed to a criminals cross.

We need to understand the greek words used in this passage as well
greater=(meizon)
better=(kreitton)

Jesus did not say that The Father was Better than Him but greater and the word is used to point to His greater position in heaven.

This is made clear in Hebrews1:4 where 'better' is used to describe Jesus´ superiority over the angels...The word 'better' in this verse indicates that Jesus is not just higher than the angels positionally. But is higher than the angels in His very nature..
Jesus is better in kind and in nature from the angels.

Jesus never onced used the word better regarding His relationship with the Father, for He is not inferior or lower in nature with the Father. Jesus used the word ´greater´ that points to the Father being higher in position only....During the incarnation, Jesus functioned in the world of humans, and this necessitated Jesus being lower than the Father positionally.


Look at Phillipians 2:6-9 Paul talks of the incarnation and says of Jesus....
"being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness"

Paul confirms that Christ was in the very nature God,meaning Christ in His essential being is and always has been eternal God-just as much as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The word ´being´ in this passage (being in the very nature God) is a present tense term and carries the idea of continued existance with God...
Philippians 2:6-9 indicates that Jesus Christ, in eternity past, continually and forever existed in the form of God.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
NewSELFInChrist
GLP

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12/23/2005 06:59 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Son's Existance DOES NOT Nigate the Fathers Existance. The Heavenly Father is A Seperate Soveren Being there is in were the Answer IS.

Binanary Count Down Continues.

As each day passes we get Ever Closer.

James.
bike
Bottom Line Take it or Leave it.
That's Life.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 12:39 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Son's Existance DOES NOT Nigate the Fathers Existance. The Heavenly Father is A Seperate Soveren Being there is in were the Answer IS.
***************************************

Jesus said....

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 12:41 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
That doesn't mean they are the same person.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 01:02 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
That doesn't mean they are the same person.
***************************************

Very true, they are not the same Person but they are both God, so therefore this prooves the Trinity Godhead does exist.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 01:05 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Jesus never said he was his own Father. He said he was His Father's son.

And nowhere does is holy spirit called the word or God's son. holy spirit did not die. And if would have had to die if God died. So no trinity since they are all not alike.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 01:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Very true, they are not the same Person





The definition a trinity says they all must be the same person.

The trinity is the central doctrine of religions of Christendom.

According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God.

Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are God. Not a Bible teaching.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 01:14 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
It is clear to me that you have no ability t understand that the Trinity does not say they are the same Person, but states clearly that all Three are in fact God.

All three persons in the Godhead have been referred to as God and are seen on different occasions to posses the attributes of Deity.

* All 3 persons possess omni-presence (present everywhere)
Father-1Kings 8:27
Son-Matthew 28:20
Holy Spirit-psalm 139:7

*All 3 persons possess omni-science (all knowing)
Father-Psalm 147:5
Son-John 16:30
Holy Spirit-1 Corinthians 2:10

*All 3 possess omni-potence (all-powerful)
Father-Psalm 135:6
Son-Matthew 28:18
Holy Spirit-Romans 15:19

*All 3 are prescribed Holiness
Father-Revelation 15:4
Son-Acts 3:14
Holy Spirit-Romans 1:4

*All 3 have the attribute of Eternal
Father-Psalm 90:2
Son-Micah 5:2; John 1:2; Revelation 1:8,17
Holy Spirit-Hebrews 9:14

* All 3 are described as Truth
Father-John 7:28
Son-Revelation 3:7
Holy Spirit-1John 5:6

*All 3 are called Lord
Father Luke 2:11
Son-Romans 10:12
Holy Spirit-2Corinthians 3:17

*All three everlasting
Father-Romans 16:26
Son-Revelation 22:13
Holy Spirit-Hebrews 9:14

*All 3 are Almighty
Father-Genesis 17:1
Son-Revelation 1:8
Holy Spirit-Romans 15:19
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 01:20 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Nobody can teach the trinity because it does not exist and does not make sense. It is not in harmony with the whole bible as God being only one God and not three gods in one . It took almost 400 years for the complete trinity to come about. It is a latter day teaching and a slap in the face to Jesus and his Father by claiming that God never had a son because God was His own son.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 01:22 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent. The Christian apostle Paul wrote: “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” (Hebrews 9:24) There are two vital points this text helps us appreciate: that God is a spirit person and that he has an established place of dwelling, heaven. (1 Kings 8:49; John 4:24) So he could not be at any other place at the same time.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 01:29 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Psalm 139

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 01:31 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
It is a latter day teaching and a slap in the face to Jesus and his Father by claiming that God never had a son because God was His own son.
***************************************

Jesus was not ´begotten´ in the sense that He was created. But it refers to His ´uniqueness´, ´specially blessed´ or ´favored´ In the same way that Isaac was Abraham´s ´only begotten´ son. Abraham had many sons including Ishmael but the full scriptural text is that Isaac was his ´only begotten´ son because he was Abraham´s unique son.

The adjective ´only begotten´ conveys the idea, not of derivation and subordination, but of uniqueness and consubstantiality: Jesus is all that God is, and He alone is this.

´Son of God´ is not one of inferiority to the Father, but that is based on a misconception as to what ´son of´ actually meant among the ancients.

Though it can refer to offspring in some contexts. It actually carries the more important meaning´ of the order of´ The phrase is often used that way in the OT.
for example ´sons of the prophets´ meant ´of the order of prophets´ (1 Kings 20:35) ´sons of the singers´ meant ´of the order of singers´ (Nehemiah 12:28)

Likewise the phrase ´Son of God´ means of the order of God, and represents a claim to undiminished deity. Ancient semantics used the phrase ´son of´ to indicate likeness or sameness of nature and equality of being. hence when Jesus made the claim to be the ´Son of God´, His Jewish contempories fully understood that He was making a claim to be God in an unqualified sense. from the earliest days of Christianity the phrase "Son of God´ was understood to be fully equivalent to God. that is why the Jews insisted on stoning Jesus when He made this claim as being the Son of God (John19:7) recognizing that Jesus was identifying Himself as God they wanted to put him to death by stoning for committing blasphemy.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 01:32 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Origin of the Trinity doctrine

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 01:37 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
* "Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out!(Romans 11:33)
* For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord, As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
* Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known' (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Now regarding this in regards to the Trinity, because we cannot grasp the concept is no reason to reject it.
basing the substance of the trinity doctrine, we both agree that there is only one true God (YHWH)
So when Jesus is called God, then if you reject the Trinity, you have to say that Jesus is a false God, as there is only one true God. (John 17:30)
Are you saying Jesus is a false God?

the fact that there is only one true God is consistent testimony that runs through Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Now while it is true that YHWH the Lord is our Elohim. (Deut. 6:4)
Is YHWH the Father alone? Or is Jesus also YHWH? and is the Holy Spirit also YHWH?

Scripture does not come right out and say that the Father is YHWH, but we know He is because He is called God and the only true God...But by the same virtue Jesus must also be recognized as YHWH: He is called God (John 1:1), Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6 and 10:21) our great God and Savior (Titus 2:13) and Lord(Romans 10:9)

So clearly Jesus is YHWH as the Father is YHWH.

The Holy Spirit as well must be recognized as YHWH in view of His deity (Acts 5:1; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Ephesians 2:22) So in light of these facts deut. 6:4 does not argue against the doctrine of the Trinity, as there being three persons within the one Godhead.

While God's unity and oneness-as affirmed in the shema-is the clear emphasis of OT revelation to man, but it does not say that there are no hints or shadows of the Trinity...Genesis 1:26
Then God said "Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image, according to 'OUR' likeness;
Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said "Behold the man has become 'like one of Us'
Genesis 11:7 God is speaking here...
"come , let 'US' go down and there confuse their language....
Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying:
"Whom shall I send
And who will go for 'US'

But God did not reveal the fulness of this doctrine until the NT times
Jesus said in Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus does not say, (1) into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or what is it's virtual equivalent, (2) into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son and into the name of the Holy Spirit, as if we had to deal with three seperate beings. Nor does he say, (3) into the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit,(omitting the three recurring articles) as if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit might be taken as merely three designations of a single person.

What He does say is this (4) into the name(singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of a single name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 02:24 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Well, this discussion can certainly be catagorized as pertaining to "the deep things of God." Theologians give titles to their discussions regarding such matters: Christology (study of the nature and work of Jesus Christ); and Pneumatology (the nature and work of the Holy Spirit). Pretty hard to wrap the human mind around it all; I appreciate your posts on this, FoG. These things are revealed by the Spirit.

FoG, what is your understanding of 2 Cor. 3:17 -- "Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

"The Lord is that Spirit."
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
FoG said:

"This is made clear in Hebrews1:4 where 'better' is used to describe Jesus´ superiority over the angels...The word 'better' in this verse indicates that Jesus is not just higher than the angels positionally. But is higher than the angels in His very nature.. Jesus is better in kind and in nature from the angels."

-------------------------------------------------------------​---------------------------------------

Yes, Jesus was above the angels (as distinguished from the beliefs of some of the gnostics), and in His incarnation "was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death" (Heb. 2:9). And He is the Captain of our salvation and our elder brother. We are sons of God and brothers of Christ:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee ... Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

So we are Christ's BROTHERS -- through Him the Father is "bringing man sons unto glory" and we are one with Christ (Heb. 2:11 above), "partakers of Christ." (Heb. 3:14). Are we literally "brothers and sons" (especially upon glorification) -- or is this just some kind of metaphor or play on words? What does it mean that Christ was the Captain bringing many sons to glory, and "the firstfruit" (1 Cor. 15) among His brothers?

By virtue of our unity as the very Body of Christ, one with Him ... His inheritance is our inheritance. What does Paul mean in Ephesians 2:5-7 where he says: " hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

We are reckoned as having ascended into the heavens and seated with Christ in His throne! We are sons and brothers. Read Hebrews 1 in this context.

Ephesians 1:17-23:
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what THE RICHES OF THE GLORY OF HIS INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS,

"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: <>

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

2 Timothy 2:12: *"We shall also reign with Him."* This is our inheritance!

Again, Heb. 2:5ff:
"For unto the ANGELS hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: <>Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. <>

**For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified ARE ALL OF ONE: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren**

1 Cor. 6:2-3:
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? KNOW YE NOT THAT WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?"

Yes, Christ is higher than the angels. And when our salvation is fully consumated, so will we be also! This is part of our inheritance as the brother of Jesus Christ -- a SON of God -- not mere servants. Our identity and destiny is IN Jesus Christ. There's alot more to it than "just 'rollin 'round heaven all day"!

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. "
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 04:15 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
FOG....How can you explain so many christians being for the war in Iraq and killing people? Is this love?
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 04:18 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Amazing when you get Christians riled up.

Still, when you multiply anything by zero, you always get zero. NONE of this has anything to do with anything.

It's all the labored ruminations of the insane.

My only purpose here is to remind Christians that it's:

E X I S T E N C E

not

E X I S T A N C E


Do you have to be uneducated to be a Christian?

Or does it comes with the inane mindset?
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 04:45 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
ac 60,
Your thoughts and viewpoints are very profound, very original, very objective, very educated, very creative ...

I am struck dumb in your presence ...
SHEEP

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12/23/2005 04:58 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
60: Are you still going on about spelling? I mentioned this in a different thread but you never responded.

60 states:

>>Yet another strain, the same virus.
And it's S E P A R A T E
Buy a dictionary for Christmas, why don't you.
Why can't Christian's spell?
Hmmmmmmmm...
The flesh-eating virus !!!!!!<<

Again I will point out that there should be no apostrophe in the word Christians as it is neither possessive nor a contraction. It is in fact plural.

Again I invite you to discuss the Word of God because you seem to be big on words.

Flesh-eating virus got your tongue?
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
SHEEP

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12/23/2005 05:09 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
53084:

>>....How can you explain so many christians being for the war in Iraq and killing people? Is this love?<<

No. It isn't. It is politics.

Is it fair to say that there are non-Christians in favor of the war?

And if so does that mean all non-Christians are equally as guilty?
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 05:57 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Christians shouldn't be apart of Satan's political system which includes war. Jesus wasn't.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/23/2005 07:16 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
FoG, what is your understanding of 2 Cor. 3:17 -- "Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

"The Lord is that Spirit."
***************************************
2 Cor. 3

14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
_______________________________________

I hope by giving a response to this that I can also answer the question of war from the other poster.

The understanding that I have is that the veil is the blinding that came along with the curse of the law. But this blinding goes even further back and is on all mankind, not merely the Israelites who were given the veil of the law.
There are 2 parts to life, that are opposite to each other.

God manifested the holinesss of the law to demonstrate the heights of His standard of righteousness. This was the first covenant.

The new covenant of grace is the manifestation of God in the life of Jesus to display an even greater righteousness than the standard of the law.

The law is dead, cold, and of no emotion from the heart, it is a righteousness based only on self. Grace on the other hand is righteousness based Jesus Christ who is life,

Grace brings fruit of love, acceptance, and reconciliation to God. by a gift of righteousness awarded to us.

Growing in this knowledge will bring humility, and love for all mankind, who are by blood all related and as children of God joined also by the Spirit. Grace also opens the spiritual eyes as without seeing grace, a person is still in darkness of the law, and their own self-ability to be righteous.

So when the Lord is preached, which means that grace is being taught, then the darkness of the law, the veil, is removed and has no place with grace.

And when the law of self righteousness is preached then darkness and blindness is placed upon those who believe in this doctrine.

The same can be said with the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the root of the law. As the law brings blindness, so putting faith into the knowledge of good and evil brings death.

As grace in Christ is preached, then eyes become opened and the result is love and eternal life. As man takes and eats from the tree of life and receives the gift of eternal life. So does he receive the gift of eternal life when he puts his faith in Christ.

In regards to what my judgement is regarding the Christians at war. Why would I resort to the knowledge of good and evil, when I can partake of the tree of life. Jesus is bigger than any sin or controversy. His grace is magnified over all wrongdoings that man can possibly accomplish. In fact why even focus on sin at all, when I can focus on Christ and grow in His grace and wisdom.

2 Timothy 2

1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

And also.....

2 Corinthians 10:3-5

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
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12/23/2005 08:16 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>So clearly Jesus is YHWH as the Father is YHWH.<<

Amen. You may have already quoted these but perhaps they bears repeating:

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

"To Him who sits and the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Jesus the Lamb is worthy of worship.

"Before Abraham was I Am."

Jesus is God.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
Canada
12/23/2005 10:17 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Jesus the Lamb is worthy of worship.
**************************************

Here is a question for those who don't know Jesus is God to ask yourselves…Is the Father guilty of the sacrilegious act by commanding the angels to worship Jesus in Hebrews 1:6....


6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."


Not only that, but is the Father a liar by saying that worship is to be rendered to God alone (Exodus 34:14;...

14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 6:13;...
13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.

Matthew 4:10....

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

Lets look at Revelation 22:8,9...

8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”


the same word ‘proskuneo’ used for "Worship" is used in the original Greek. There the apostle John says, “I fell down to worship(root ‘proskuneo’) before the feet of the angel…..But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that!.........Worship(root ‘proskuneo’) GOD.” The exact worship that the angel refused to accept, but told John to give to GOD, is the same ‘proskuneo’ that the Father commanded to be given to His Son Jesus at Hebrews 1:6.

I must also emphasize that the context is extremely important in properly interpreting Hebrews 1. It must be kept in mind that one of the primary purposes of Hebrews, particularly in chapter 1, is to demonstrate the superiority of Jesus Christ—including His superiority over the angels(1:5-2:18), and Moses(3:1-6). This superiority is shown by Christ being God’s ultimate revelation; Jesus is affirmed as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe(verses 2,3); and Jesus is said to have the very nature of God(verse 3)..None of these same things could be said of the prophets, the angels, or Moses as this passage clarifies, so there can never be a misinterpretation that Jesus is or ever was one of these created beings.

Again, Hebrews 1:5; 2:18 states Christ’s superiority over angels. In Hebrews 1:6 we are told Christ is worshiped (proskuneo) by angels.

Jesus was worshiped from birth as God with the same kind of ‘proskuneo’ and He always accepted worship as appropriate. The wise men worshiped Him, Thomas worshiped Him, All the angels are commanded to worship Him, a leper worshiped Him, a blind man worshiped Him Mary Magdalene worshiped Him, and the Disciples worshiped Him. In fact the Father has ordained for Jesus to be worshiped by all of creation, If Jesus is not worshiped the rocks and the stones will cry out praise to Him as Jesus made mention on His triumphant entry on His journey by colt to the Mount of Olives.(Luke 19:40)

By contrast when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra and they miraculously healed a man by God’s mighty power, those who were in the crowds shouted, “The gods have come down to us in human form!”9Acts 14:11) When Paul and barnabas perceived that the people were preparing to worship them, “they tore there clothes and rushed into the crowd, shouting: “Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you’”(verse 15). As soon as they perceived what was happening, they immediately corrected the gross misconception that they were gods.

Jesus never once sought to correct those who worshiped Him or set them straight as to what they were doing by worshiping Him. He considered such worship as appropriate behavior for mankind to render unto Him as God. This is yet another affirmation that Jesus Christ was in fact God come in the flesh
In Revelation we clearly see that God the Father and Jesus Christ receive the same worship. In Revelation 4:10 the Father is worshiped and Revelation 5:11-14 we see all of heaven worshiping the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

The very fact that Jesus is worshiped is consistent of Scripture, and says a lot of the true identity of Jesus being God. Exodus 34:14 tells us “For you shall not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. To say that the Lord in the OT is different than the Lord in the NT is a complete lack of scriptural understanding or lack of revelation by the Father, that is given only to those who truly know God. For flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you but only the father in heaven.

If you choose to refuse to accept this truth of who Jesus truly is, then God Himself will reveal this to you when you bow your knee to Jesus Christ either in this life or the next and confess that Jesus Christ is truly Lord.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2005 10:35 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>>If you choose to refuse to accept this truth of who Jesus truly is, then God Himself will reveal this to you when you bow your knee to Jesus Christ either in this life or the next and confess that Jesus Christ is truly Lord.<<<

Complete. Total. And utter darkness.

And Jesus is out back, throwing up as we speak.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Canada
12/23/2005 11:29 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Complete. Total. And utter darkness.

*************************************
#60, I present to you the kingdom of God's righteousness in Jesus Christ our Savior... freely, come and partake of the tree of life.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60
United States
12/24/2005 01:18 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Children. The world is overrun by children.
SHEEP
User ID: 53850
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12/24/2005 01:27 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
ID 60:

Aren't you the grammar nazi who said "Christian's can't spell"?

I've invited you three times now to come back and discuss the Word.

Still waiting.
Anonymous Coward
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12/24/2005 03:26 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
FoG said:
"It must be kept in mind that one of the primary purposes of Hebrews, particularly in chapter 1, is to demonstrate the superiority of Jesus Christ—including His superiority over the angels (1:5-2:18), and Moses (3:1-6)."

-------------------------------------------------------------​---------------------------------------
Yes, Christ's superiority over angels and Moses -- and also the law. Why? Because the Law was given by angels, as will be shown below.

It was not only the gnostics who promoted an anti-christ doctrine that an angelic type being inhabited the body of Jesus -- but the Jews were also clinging to a form of religion that was associated with angelic powers as well, and a jurisdiction that had been superceded.

The book of Hebrews was written, obviously, to Hebrews. Much of the book revolves around the superiority of Christ to the angels, the torah law, and the sacrifices. (And yes, the Hebrews were falling back into the practice of sacrifices, for which they were strongly reprimanded.)

The living Christ replaces the law in the life of a believer. He is the "end" ( meaning the object or goal -- not the abolition) of the law. And again, the author of Hebrews also declares the supremecy of Christ over the law because the giving of the law itself was associated with and mediated by angels! And thus is inferior to Christ. This seems to be one of the more obscure or lesser-known biblical doctrines. But notice:

Just before Stephen was stoned to death by angry Jews, he said:

"Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Who have RECEIVED THE LAW BY DISPOSITION OF ANGELS, and have not kept it." (Acts 7:52-53)

Or as the Amplified puts it:
"You who received the Law as it was ordained and set in order and delivered by angels, and yet you did not obey it!"

In Hebrews 2, where the superiority of Christ over the angels is being discussed, it says:

"For if THE WORD SPOKEN BY ANGELS was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord." (Heb. 2:2)

Galations 3:19:
"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and IT WAS ORDAINED BY ANGELS IN THE HAND OF A MEDIATOR ."

"God gave his laws to angels to give to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people." (NIV version)

Acts 7:37-38:
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness WITH THE ANGEL WHICH SPOKE TO HIM IN THE MOUNT SINAI, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us ..."

Colossians 2 contrasts the worshipping of angels to holding the Head ... Christ:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and WORSHIPPING OF ANGELS, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head ..."

The Law was not given directly by the Father or the pre-existant Christ at Mt. Sinai -- it was delivered through the mediatorship of angels. This is why the New Covenant of grace, spoken by Christ, is superior to the Old Covenant of law. This is why Christ is superior to the law. Because Christ is superior to the angels. The law was given by Moses (via angels), but it was reserved to Jesus Christ to bring grace and truth. The Old Covenant with its angelic messengers was glorious, but the glory of Christ and the New Covenant far surpasses it:

2 Cor. 3:7-11:
"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!"

There are many people who do not like to hear this message. After all, Stephen was stoned to death because of it.





GLP