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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/26/2005 01:03 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I wanted to make a followup post to my one above about the Old Covenant law and the 10 Commandments having been given by God via angelic mediatorship ... not directly from God. Many will say "no way" and cite passages to demonstrate that YHVH Himself gave the law and wrote it on tablets of stone "with his own finger." But if they want to hold to that belief, they will not be able to harmonize their opinion with the clear NT statements that say angels gave the law, which were quoted in my previous post.

The opening statements of the book of Hebrews also clearly contrast the fact that in the past God spoke unto the fathers "at sundry times and in divers manners" -- but has now "in these last days" spoken directly by His Son. The truth being that in the past He did not speak via His Son, as He has now.

Heb. 1:1-2: "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

The first two chapters of Hebrews then goes on to repeatedly demonstrate Christ's and the Gospel's superiority over the angels and over the law.

Acts 7:30 and 7:38 clearly state that it was an ANGEL that spoke to Moses in the "burning bush" and also from Mt. Sinai -- not YHVH. There was a very high-ranking angel who appeared at times in the Old Covenant dispensation, referred to as "the angel of the Lord." He was commissioned with all of the authority of YHVH Himself, and spoke on His behalf, as if directly from YHVH. This is where the confusion and contradictions come in -- this angel often spoke the word of YHVH directly, as if it were YHVH -- and in complete identification with Him. This is not unusual -- even the OT human prophets sometimes spoke as if the words were a 1st person utterance from God. Again, this "angel of the Lord" is distinct from God even though he used the name of God in first person. He was a powerful angelic mediator -- perhaps even Michael or Gabriel, though no one knows for sure, and his exact identity is not important.

This fact that angels gave the law at Sinai was well known by Jews in the first century -- and certainly by Paul and Stephen -- and also by various early Christian authors.

Deut. 33:2 says:
"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints (i.e. angels) : from his right HAND went a fiery law for them."

Compare this with Gal. 3:19:
"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the SEED should come (compare with Heb. 1:1-2) to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by ANGELS in the HAND of a mediator."

Regarding this angelic mediator, "the angel of the Lord," who spoke directly on behalf of God, notice Exodus 23:20-21:

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: FOR MY NAME IS IN HIM." He spoke as and for YHVH, representing God and God's presence. Compare with Isaiah 63:9: "In all their affliction he was afflicted, and THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE saved them."

God's name and presence was in this angel who bore God's word and authority.

Heb. 2:2-3:
"For if the word SPOKEN BY ANGELS was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him ..."

We now have the direct Word of God, without mediators -- and Jesus Christ is that Word. "For there is ONE God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." But not so with the Old Covenant. Galations 3:19-20: "The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; BUT GOD IS ONE." And Jesus Christ as God brough truth directly. No more mediators, whether anhappy_bunnyriests, as in the Old Testament.

We now worship God in spirit and in truth -- the truth that has superceded the "elementary principles of the world" (Gal. 4:3,9 and Col. 2:8,20) that were given via angelic mediators, to be in effect until the time of reformation -- physical priests and temples, Holy places and days etc. -- all such things were mere shadows of Jesus Christ and are not to be embraced as having any spiritual efficacy.

Colossians 2:15-23:
"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come; BUT THE BODY (i.e., "reality") IS OF CHRIST.

"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of ANGELS, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, VAINLY PUFFED UP BY HIS FLESHLY MIND,

"AND NOT HOLDING THE HEAD (i.e. Christ and His full revelation), from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

"Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
SHEEP

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12/26/2005 01:17 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>We now have the direct Word of God, without mediators -- and Jesus Christ is that Word<<

Amen.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
James.
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12/26/2005 02:10 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Hay SHEEP Did you find what you wanted in the discushion(sp).

Like hay #60 is a ? whith out an Answere.

He chooses to be Dence so shall we Dance.

James.
bike
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12/26/2005 02:18 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
James:

That's a pretty good question. I guess if nothing else, I found that there are some things Christians disagree on, and it isn't the end of the world. But Jesus is Lord is non-negotiable.

As for AC60, my beef is that he showed up to spell check people, made his own spelling mistake and yet still called Christians uneducated, and then left without adding to the discussion. If I catch him in a dark alley we're going to have a spelling bee.

Thanks for asking.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward
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12/26/2005 02:38 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
This essay was inspired by the consistent assumption of Christians that if I believed the Bible were true, I would become a Christian. There are several reasons for my atheism, the leading of which is the idea of a higher power is not probable in light of current scientific data. The second of which is I do not find the state of the world in accordance
with an idea of a “loving and erciful” higher power. Then of course there is the factor that the basis of this essay shall be about; I do not find the Biblical God fit for worship.

Over the course of this essay there will be some times when I will speak as if I believe in the Bible, when in fact I do not.

I plan to examine the Bible with critical inquiry. This essay will not be based upon scientific facts and how they disprove the Bible. It shall be an application of my emotions
regarding compassion, love, mercy, patience, and justice. I hope to explain more clearly why the God depicted in the Bible violates my idea of a moral being. This shall be done over a series of topics. Each pointing out how the Christian God is undeserving of my worship. I will utilize Biblical verses to support my claim as well as what I consider to be logical reasoning.

Now would be the time to ask you to please take out your bibles for consultation. (I personally prefer the N.I.V. or K.J.V.) I will only cite the verse and a brief over view. I do not have the space to write out the verse in its entirety. I especially don’t wish to spew out so much information that I run the risk of overloading those people who dislike reading. (Funny confliction here, isn’t it? We are online, in a purely textual world, and people still have the audacity to complain about reading.) In the case that you dislike reading online essays, I recommend you print this out and thumb through it at your
convenience.

Hell:

Hell, of course, is the mother of all of my problems with the bible. It is perhaps the most despicable and hideous of all of the Christian god’s crimes. Indeed, the cruelest of all
concentration camps. (Certainly far worse than the ones created by the Nazis.) Described biblically as the “lake of fire”, “the place of eternal torment with weeping and gnashing of teeth” Jesus said in Mark 9:42-48 That it is better to commit suicide or self maiming then to be delivered unto hell. So, according to the bible I assume that all here can agree that there is an existence of hell, and that hell is the worst of all circumstance. Knowing this, let me indulge you as to why the existence of hell paints the Christian god as not fit for worshipping.

I am a moderately compassionate idividual, rational, moral, nurturing. Most of all I am a creator, a mother. I propose this to you, a human question. Can all here Christian or
Atheist, safely say that if there is a god, he is our greatest thought magnified? What ever emotion we feel as human, being created in his image, god is infinitely more so feeling. For
he is the creator of all things created, I believe this concept is pretty safe to assume.

With this being so, my love for my daughter must be a fraction of god’s love for his children. Speaking as a mother, I can safely say that if my child were to commit the greatest harm upon me tomorrow, I would never wish her harm. Why? Simply because she is my creation.

If my daughter were to maim me, slander me, etc. I would still love her, for my instinct and emotion demands of me to protect and care for her regardless of her actions, much like all rational beings (animal kingdom included). So now I pose the question, why then would god condemn us to hell for something as menial as lack of faith? If he is not infinitely more so loving then me, why would hell even exist? Any true loving being would never condemn his own children to everlasting torment, especially one that proclaims himself to having the very essence of forgiveness.

But “God Is Just” You Claim:

Most Christians have responded to this statement with the following rationalization. “God can not let all of his creations into heaven because he is just.” I ask in rebuttal to this, since when is justice more important then love in the heart of a parent? Is hell even justice, or is it simply cruel and unusual punishment? The bible states the system of justice very simply. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. There is also another variation of that system with the biblical verse “eye for an eye”. The Christian god violates his own system of law when he damns his creations to eternal suffering for sins as menial as theft or blasphemy. I hardly think, nor would any logical person, that throwing someone into a gnashing jaw would be justly befitting of nearly any crime. (With the exception of murder, and even so, eternal punishment is pretty excessive.)

Most courts of law would take custody of your child from you just for an excessive spanking. We as a people enacted these laws, for we thought them to be logical. Is god above logic, or what we deem as compassionate behavior? After all he pitches a majority of his children into a lake of “fire and brimstone.” How many of us would want a parent such as that? Anyone of us would immediately sever our ties with such an abusive person. Yet Christians knowingly continue the insanity of giving worship to a god so cruel!

“Free Will”, You Say?

It is also written that I was given free will with which to choose if I will go to hell or not. How can you possibly deem something free when you must fear consequences? That completely conflicts with the definition of free. If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “you have free will to not give me your wallet, but if you attempt to defy me I will
kill you.” Does it really feel as if you have a choice in the matter? Of course not. Free means to give or receive something without an expectation of return. The whole free will concept is self defeating. Call it Circumstantial Will, for that is what it truly is.

Despite this, I have still had the displeasure of debating with those Christians who accept hell as a rational and fair wrath of god. They defend Jehovah’s/Yahweh´s/Jesus creation of hell with the opinion that those who are committed to hell go voluntary, as if it is a consequence rather then a punishment. That indeed, we as children of god, chose rather to be hell’s inmates then god’s disciples in heaven. It’s an interesting idea. However, you don’t have to hurt anyone to get into Hell. All it takes, according to Scripture, is knowing about Jesus and not accepting him as Savior. It doesn’t matter how virtuous you are, how much good you do, how happy an environment you create for others. Given this, the voluntary entry argument doesn’t make sense. The same argument could be used to justify the sending of Aryan opponents of Nazism to concentration camps: they voluntarily chose not to give homage to Hitler, so they chose to be interred. Why should we blame the Nazis for the inmates’ choice?

Why should we blame god for the choice of the damned?

Genocide:

I hear a lot from Christians about God’s “infinite compassion and mercy”.

Instead of harping on me about something so unapparent, they should go tell it to the Midianites. (Please open your bibles to Numbers 3 1) The following verses are a classic example of wholesale slaughter and rape under the direction of the same god they claim to be so merciful. A quick sample of this tale: On the way to the promised land, God had Moses wage a war campaign against the Midian. Moses was told to put every Medianite to death, plunder anything of value, set fire to their towns where they lived and all their encampments. Moses gave the orders to his troops (the sons of Israel) and went on a further campaign. On the return of his troops Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army. He said, “Why have you spared the life of all the women and children? You are to kill all the
children and kill all the women who have slept with a man. The lord says spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves, so that
we may multiply into a great nation.” Yes, friends, this is biblical nfinite mercy and compassion for you. I particularly like the way that Moses got upset with them for sparing
women and male children, but allowed the young girls to be kept for later raping.

I have had some Christians proclaim that these Medianite girls were not taken for raping but marriage. How ridiculous! If you continue further in the scripture you will find that
marriage to a Medianite was a crime against god. A man named Zimri, broke the law and married a Medianite woman this angered god so he sent a plague among the Hebrews.

Fortunately, a zealous son of Israel speared Zimri right through the genitals, and the plague went away. So now I ask you, if you could not marry a Medianite, just what were these
“virgin woman who were to help multiply” good for?

I don’t think the first born in Egypt during the captivity would have agreed with the verdict of compassion and mercy either. (Exodus 11:5 & 12:29) First of all, God is the one who purposely “hardened the heart of the Pharaoh” so that he would not let Moses and the Jews go. God messed with someone’s free will. God could have even teleported the Jews out of
captivity without bloodshed, or put the Egyptians to sleep while they left, but no. God decided to set up a situation in which he knew he would have to punish the Pharaoh. Though
this he didn’t even do. He punished the children instead. Judging from god’s previous actions, killing innocent children is much more his forte.

Lastly, please attempt to read the entire book of Joshua some evening. It is a long sequence of atrocities. I have not given all these quotes for space reasons. I urge you to look them
up for yourself. Especially for Christians who are not familiar with the bible. It will leave you not only shocked and in question of just what you are worshiping, but it will give
a new definition to all morality you claimed was a derivative of god. If by some chance you read Joshua and you are still compliant with the loving notion of god, I suggest you re-
evaluate your code of ethics.

Here is the place I will now speak of common rationalizations used for this slaughter. I have discovered via my discussions that there are two major forms: the corruption argument and the mercy argument. The former says that those slaughtered were evil and deserving of their fate; the latter says that since they were religiously incorrect, it was a mercy to terminate their existence.

The corruption argument simply does not hold up. The people slaughtered in the Old Testament were almost uniformly blameless (with a few exceptions, of course for instance, the Sodomites violated the conventions of hospitality.) Usually, no justification is offered beyond the fact that since they were of another tribe, it was OK to kill them. It goes without saying that the hordes of slaughtered children were innocent. (*quick tip-If god was anti abortion he wouldn’t have ordered the murder of pregnant women and young children.)

As to the mercy argument: If I don’t claim to be suffering, and don’t ask to die, neither you nor any god has the right to decide that you know better. (This would of course be a
violation of my free will.) If a person tried to do this to me, I would quite frankly attempt to kill him; if a god tried, well, the only weapon I would have would be withholding
my worship. Are you beginning to see why I do not comply with the worship of the Christian god?

Neglect:

Most of us, given omnipotence, would be able to do a far better job than the Christian God. What would you do if given omnipotence? If your answer is anything other than “abolish world hunger, disease or save the earth”, there’s something more than a little skewed in your perception of mankind. There is no question that the very balance of life is in peril. To wish for these things doesn’t take “infinite mercy”, just normal compassion and a bit of common sense. God’s supposed infinite mercy is apparently the same thing as no mercy at all.

What makes this particularly unforgivable is that even Jesus’ own standards demand feeding of the poor. See Matthew 25:35, in which it is stated that the blessed feed the hungry, and that the damned do not. I find it funny that god is held blameless, though, for not feeding
them. Does not the old aying “practice what you preach” apply to god? Is his lack of action a hypocrisy or a sin? Could it perhaps be both?

Usually, when I bring this up in a discussion, someone says, “No. It is the evil of men that is to blame; they have lots of money and keep it to themselves rather than feeding the
poor.” (Funny thing that the Christians who say this are usually conservative) This argument uses a double standard. Men are held guilty for not feeding the poor, while God is held innocent for doing exactly the same. In fact, it would be far easier for god to feed all the poor with his omnipotence, than for any mortal man to feed even one! Mankind is certainly
not blameless here, but it is the Christian God who is the true villain.

Another popular rationalization is that life without “challenges” would be boring and dehumanizing, so god does not remove them. The fallacy here is grouping all challenges together. I personally lead a very challenging and satisfying life, but I have not lately
had to flee any volcanoes or earthquakes, go without food for a week, or suffer the ravages of some disease. I would be quite happy, in fact, if I never do have to face such challenges as those. There is plenty of room for amelioration of the human condition without making it dull. Does it not defeat the purpose of living life if you are to starve to death?

Faith Is Required To Know God:

Suppose you were an omnipotent god, and you demand worship, such as the Christian god. Would you give proof of your existence to those who wished to follow you? I imagine for God that
it would be quite simple to perform a continual sequence of verifiable miracles. It would be quite logical in practice too, for it would keep god’s followers from delusion and doubt.

There is no such luck with the Christian God though. He demands absolute fidelity without any demonstration of his existence. The only so called record of his existence is the bible.

I think it pretty much goes with out saying that not only is the bible 2,000 years out dated, but it is also very unoriginal. Any Christian who proposes that the bible is indeed evidence for god’s existence is proposing a double standard. For there are many books which claim to be actual accounts of a higher power. With this in mind, why not believe in Allah from the Quarun? Could it be because your faith is what determines your belief and not your so called
“factual” book?

Let’s examine what faith is. The definition of faith is hope for a circumstance or thing that is not proven to be true. There is no virtue in accepting something on faith, since it may very well be false, and it is clearly not virtuous to believe the false. Faith has also been proven through out history, time and again, that it is equivalent to massive hysteria;

IE: Crusades, Burning Times, Inquisitions, Holy Wars, etc. On a grand scale faith, thus far, has only proven to be an intellectual weakness, and a significant barrier to scientific and moral progress. With all of this in mind, how can god possibly expect us to view faith as
the greatest way to glorify him, let alone demand this of us?

Most importantly, the point to remember here is that if we don’t believe in him, we go to Hell, and this is a greater evil than a lack of the “virtue” of faith or a stunting of
science, or anything else conceivable. If god is truly concerned about the good, he will do what he can to keep us from Hell, and withholding vital information from us is the exact
opposite of this.

God Is The Creator Of Evil:

I am frustrated at two specific verses in the bible, which applies to this particular topic.

The first is the biblical statement that “god is the Alpha and the Omega”. Loosely defined it means the beginning and the end, the all knowing. Which of course implies that all of his
actions and the results are fore known to him. I have a real problem with this notion. For if god was to know ahead of time that someday he would send me to hell for being an Atheist,
I ask what was the purpose in him creating me in the first place? Was it simply to watch me be tortured? That seems to be the most logical explanation. I can think of no other rational explanation, nor neither has any Christian who I posed this question to. Some people have
attempted to tell me that god has a purpose unknown to us, and that we must simply accept his will. Would you keep a friend who commits evil and offers no self-justification or
remorse? Of course not, so why is this same judgment not applied to god? It’s seems rather contradictory that this trait is despised in humanity, yet, it is worshiped in religion.

Secondly, I want to reinforce the fact that god is indeed the creator of evil. Please read verse Isaiah 45:7. “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things”. The Christian god outright claims that he is indeed the source of evil. So how can he then claim to be sinless?

To be more specific, let’s talk about the lord’s creation of evil, let’s talk about the conception of Satan. This being was created and unleashed by god. God knew (for he is the all knowing) that at the time of Lucifer’s creation he would eventually become Satan, and spend his existence reeking havoc on man kind. Leading people into criminal activities.

Suppose I were to build an evil robot, that I knew would go around torturing and murdering people. Whose fault would it be if I let it loose? Mine or the robot’s? Of course it would be mine, for I created it with that purpose and unleashed it for that purpose. Now I ask you, whose fault is deviltry in the world? Is it the PUPPET Satan or the being that deliberately created Satan’s evil?

Now God Plays Switch-A-Roo And Humans Are The Creators Of Evil Not only does the bible imply, but so do many Christians, that we as a people are the creator of evil. It is clear
for reading the bible that this is untrue, but the speculation still remains. Supposedly, when Adam and Eve fell from grace, they single handedly brought evil into the world. All you
have to do is think logically for a moment, and you will obviously see something is very unjust with this concept. Could any rational being hold a starving infant in Ethiopia
responsible for the actions of two long dead people? Or perhaps, would you find it fair to be convicted of Jack the Ripper’s crimes? The connection in both of these instances are not only ludicrous but, disgusting to nod your head at. People who use this argument are simply attempting to rationalize sadism.

I must declare that a Christian that walks into a children’s ward and insists that it is correct that children suffer as a result of the original sin, must destroy themselves of all compassion and mercy. I insist that those who worship the lord knowing this hypocrisy must be as cruel as the Christian god he/she believes in. A complete and utter moral degenerate, taking stabs at protecting their belief system. A person as such would just as easily
worship Satan as god in their blindness and faith. For apparently, no amount of evidence could convince him that god was bad once they decided to worship him; their basic assumption
is that they are correct, which makes them untouchable by any amount of rationality.

Human Judgment

One of the criticisms most frequently leveled at me when presenting any of the above arguments has been that I have no right to judge god. A pretty feeble grasp at the straws.

Christians proclaim that god is the definition of good. All morality proceeds downwards from him, so it makes no sense to apply moral standards to him. But I must interject. . . God allowed my ancestors Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Thus, allowing us “to be like gods, and know the difference between good and evil”. This very biblical verse, written in the first book of Genesis, conflicts with the same argument these
Christians attempt to use. If we as humans are now capable of knowing good and evil LIKE THE GODS why can not use are judgment? How can it be lower then god’s if god is the one who claimed that we are like him?

Let’s say for the sake of argument that I should not judge god. Well then, would it be fair to hold him up to his own standards? Please consult verses Matthew 25:41-46 We hear Jesus
say: “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me”. . . And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.”

Now, I have never personally seen Jesus feed the hungry nor, have I seen him give drink to those who thirst. But, I do personally see thousands of people die of starvation. I do not
recall Jesus dispensing clothes. He has never made me feel welcome, let alone acknowledged.

I see the faithful sicken and die on a daily basis. In light of this Jesus himself is the worst of all sinners; if there is no double standard he will be at the head of the line into
eternal punishment. He is guilty of every crime of which he accuses the damned.

In Conclusion

I don’t think I could ever complete a whole list as to what I find objectionable regarding the bible. There are many more topics in which to tackle such as sexism, infanticide,
homophobia, and the likes. Frankly, I find it too tiresome to go on any further. As I read over all that I have wrote I simply wish to close this essay with a very brief summation: I
do not believe in the reality of god, except as a psychological phenomenon, but if l did believe I would not worship that horror. It violates my morality to worship a hypocritical,
judgmental, self righteous murderer. In punishment, it could send me to the hell it’s made for those it dislikes, and if there was no other choice but worshiping it, I would walk in proudly.
beemerben
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12/26/2005 06:01 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
#1861 says--Hell, of course, is the mother of all of my problems with the bible.

To that I say what if you learned that hell didn't last forever and in fact people aren't punished forever. Would that make the bible a little less distasteful???

Ok follow me a little ways and I think you might see things in a different liight. What most people read that makes them think that God will punish people forever is the passage that says the wicked along with the devil are cast into the lake of fire and and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever Rev 20:10

Now what if I could show you that instead of burning forever that as soon as the fire did it's duty the wicked would be no more. Granted it's still not a pretty picture but isn't that the whole idea anyway. God doesn't want anybody to be lost and to be honest with you, I've always had an issue with the destruction of the wicked but I had it explained to me this way. That heaven will be a place that the wicked would not be happy. It's like a mercy kill if you will. The bible says the wages are sin are death. Not a little slap on the wrist but death. Their are so many choices that we make that contribute to the final judgment. But let's not get off track here.. If you read in Ex 21: 5-6 it tells that if a servant had been held for six years then he had to set him free also called the year of Jubilee. But if that servan was happy and loved his master and loved his masters family that the master was to have him stand by the door frame and he was to take an awl and he was to bore through his ear with it and the servant was to serve the master for ever. Does that mean the servant is still alive? No it just means that until their was no more breath in him. In Mal 4:1-3 it says that the wicked become stubble under our feet. Does that sound like they will be burning forever? No just as long as they are alive. One other thing I remember reading is the story of Jonah and it says that jonah was in the belly of the whale (actually big fish is more like it) forever. Is Jonah still in the belly now? Nope!

Please don't buy into the idea that Hell is eternal. The result is eternal buy not the punishment. Do you really think people that are saved would be happy if they could look outside the wall and see their loved ones being tormented? I don't think so either.

Bottom line is their is a right and wrong way in life and we make the choices and rightly so must suffer the consequences. Nobody has to be lost and their is a price we must pay if we choose to live contrary to gods law. The great controversey that is going on is between good and evil. God says their will be those worth saving and the devel says nope. Nada not going to happen. Gods law is on trial here and we have heaven to gain or hell to choose. It's up to us
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bump
paintgod
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
You must under stand! [link to p067.ezboard.com]
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beemerben
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12/26/2005 6:01 PM


Thanks for that and you are right.
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08/12/2006 12:40 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
rose
AntOverlord

User ID: 129942
United States
08/12/2006 12:44 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
But have you answered the real question? How many angels can dance on a pubic hair?
A Traveler nli
User ID: 129948
United States
08/12/2006 12:59 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!

Never had it.

Nobody needs salvation,

Some need to be rescued from this hell.

And get back Home.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 87198
United States
08/12/2006 01:15 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
[link to www.rockofoffence.com]

[link to www.rockofoffence.com]
~ Lone Wolf ~

User ID: 129944
United States
08/12/2006 01:22 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Beemerben, you my friend, are a wise and spiritual man! Amen! If only others could see how we (who are made in our Creator's image) could not possibly be more merciful or have a better sense of judgment then Him. headbang
I suck
~ Lone Wolf ~

User ID: 129944
United States
08/12/2006 01:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
1861, You have given some good points and many of these I share my own concern with you. It is why I am on my own spiritual journey and search for the truth. The more I search, the more I am convinced that the Bible with which we have today is not, in fact the original scriptures that Jesus taught about.....I also believe that many of the changes have to do with control, and were done by the Council of Nicea under the direction of the Emporer Constantine. Just remember not to throw the baby out with the bath water....look around you at nature in all of it's miraculous glory. Don't give up. Your eyes are, indeed, open now and you owe it to yourself to search for the truth. Blessings to you on your journey. flower
I suck
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 129966
Australia
08/12/2006 02:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Here is a guy who believes we are not all made of God. Interesting reading...
[link to www.accdatbooks.com]
navyjax2
User ID: 525630
United States
10/14/2008 02:39 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Sorry, raising the B.S. flag here.... bsflag

The Hebrews 6:6 verse was posted earlier in this post to say that you can lose your salvation? Re-read it. It says that you would be like requiring Christ to be crucified again ("afresh"), which would be "to an open shame" - in other words, you CAN'T lose your salvation or it would make Christ's death on the cross meaningless.

Also, "For by grace are ye saved, not of works, it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:5-6 I believe - going off memory here - it's in Ephesians, though).

That means it is our FREE GIFT to accept and nothing we do can change it - good to earn it, or bad to lose it.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whomsoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) That means WHOMEVER believes gets it, and that is ALL they have to do, or it would not be a GIFT if it required a constant re-dedication. It is not of yourselves to win or lose, but to just ACCEPT.

-Tom
The Professor
User ID: 385883
United States
10/14/2008 02:50 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
If those who have accepted Christ as their personal savior are forever saved in spite of their subsequent conduct, please explain the following scripture which seem to say that those who sin after they know of Christ are condemned, and are worse than the unbeliever.

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. ….For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
- Hebrews 10:10-27

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord “and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire”
- 2 Peter 2:20-22





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