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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
JayDee
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12/17/2005 08:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Sin is unbelief, the absence of faith. Romans 14:23 says "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Man is incapable of generating faith, being in a fallen state and outside the Kingdom of God, so it is given to him by God. Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

It is God who decides if you are given faith. John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." The word "draw" is really "drag"...look it up. And John 6:65 "...no man can come to me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

In answer to the OP's question: John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

True salvation in Christ is not something we can appropriate for ourselves, it is the gift of God; given to those who don't deserve it. The definition of Grace is unmerited favor. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound...
Kay
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12/17/2005 08:25 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
No.

When Jesus was speaking to 'the Church at Sardis, when he said that He would not 'blot out his name out of the Book of Life' - He was speaking to an entire church.

Now, if you have ever attended 'church' for any length of time, you would know that anyone can just wander in and be a part of that church, Christian or not.

It is not an absolute thing, that if you go to church, you belong to Him.

That is how this supposed discrepancy is solved. Jesus is speaking to entire church congregations in Revelation 3.

In the other places where Jesus speaks to believers, ie in John 6 and 10, He is speaking to individuals, and He says repeatedly that those who have been given to Him (Jesus), will never be taken from Him. They may get lost, but He will go and find them, no matter what.
Anonymous Coward
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12/17/2005 08:29 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To understand this scripture it is necessary first of all to appreciate the point that the apostle John repeatedly makes in his letter, namely, that there is a difference between committing a sin and willfully practicing sin. He does not here say that a Christian born of God does not commit a sin. That Christians do commit sins he made clear previously when he wrote: “I am writing you these things that you *may not* commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.”—1 John 2:1.

But true Christians do not make a practice of sin, even as John goes on to show: “Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness. You know too that that one was made manifest to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin; no one that practices sin has either seen him or come to know him. Little children, let no one mislead you; he who carries on righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous. He who carries on sin originates with the Devil.”—1 John 3:4-8.

So John, at 1 John 5:18, is emphasizing that those who are born of God do not make a practice of sin. But note that he does not say that the one who is born of God cannot practice sin. The facts are that **some who have been born of God have practiced sin**.

Example:

There was such a man in the congregation at Corinth, and the apostle Paul commanded the congregation there to put him out of the congregation, which they did. No one who practices sin can be recognized as a Christian.—1 Cor. 5:1-13; 2 Cor. 2:5-11.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 08:55 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The faithful Christian may at some time lapse or fall into sin because of weakness or being misled, but he “does not carry on sin,” continuing to walk in it.
______________________________________
This thread is mainly for those who have been born again of the Holy Spirit, because only then is the Truth dwelling inside your spirit. But thanks for all other comments as terms for discussion and they are welcome from everyone.

Yes being misled and weakness are present when sin is at the door, but what are those who fall into sin being misead with and how is there weakness able to defeat them??

The bottom line is that the only thing that makes a Christian choose to sin is rebellion.

Rebellion uses the letter of the law to tempt a christian into sin. So it is quite unfair to say that a faithful christian can ever fall into sin. As true faith is only in grace through Christ, and not in the letter of the law. So Christ nailed the law to the cross with Himself in order that His chosen would not be able to ever be in rebellion and sin again before Him.

The strength of sin is in the law.

1 Corinthians 15
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Verse 15 holds the key to the victory over sin we have in Christ, He disarmed the strength of sin, and triumphed over it, and He disarmed the strength of sin by nailing the letter of legalism to the cross with Him in death.

The passage to go on about the basic principles of the world which are the knowledge of good and evil and the measurement of judgement we aquire by being under this curse. The letter of the law is rooted in the knowledge of good and evil. And when someone uses this measurement as their standard of righteousness, all the power to defeat sin is within themselves, and I can pretty much guarantee that satan has a bag of tricks with your name on it that he can deceive you with if you are relying on your own strength to gain the victory.

But Paul says 'When I am weak, then I am strong"

2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

When Paul claimed that He was strong when he was weak it was only because Paul understood the power of the sufficient grace Christ proclaimed to him, over our own abilities to perform in righteousness. Paul was looking to Christ's righteousness and not his own shortcomings and inabilities to deal with his thorn in his side.
Now if someone is weak and rebels from grace and places themselves under the letter of self-righteous ability, They will be focused on themselves and their failure. Condemnation now has an inroad to accuse them before God. And it is only because of the curse of the knowledge tree of good and evil that this condemnation can exist.

This may seem off topic of thread but the foundation of the power of righteousness through grace must be founded completely in Christ alone and not in our selves.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 09:12 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The bottom line is that the only thing that makes a Christian choose to sin is rebellion.
_______________________________________

When I speak of sin and the born again Christian I am only referring to sin not leading to death. As these sins do not lead to death because those who have been sealed and given eternal life can not commit a sin leading to death.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 09:30 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
friendofgod

I meant to say, can you name any people you've met who are not of God's seed? What you have done is describe what someone else supposedly said about what these poeple might "be", I'm asking for some names because if "god" is the creator, then all are of "God's seed"
_______________________________________
Sophia
No I cannot name a person who is not born of God's Seed, because I do not know the spiritual state of every man, however I do know many who are born of God's Seed.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

1 Peter 1

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

24 because


“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,

25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”


Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
Black Jim

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12/17/2005 09:44 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Pondering-How many times can you be born again? Perhaps I should ask Jimmy Swaggart that question? Ok lets say that you are a born again Christian,but one night after work and falling off the wagon you run into the Widow Debbie from church at a sleazy little bar on the edge of town. You both put down a good few drinks talk about the lack of warm wet personal contact,then end up in a cheap motel in the next county,where she gets pissed that you came in two strokes. At that point you feel guilt with no afterglow, call her a slut,and when she threatens to tell your wife-you beat her to death with a motel lamp.Later while sitting in prison for life,could you be reborn again?
Black Jim

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12/17/2005 10:03 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
How many times can you be reborn?
Anonymous Coward
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12/17/2005 10:12 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
You are only born again once.

And backsliding is a process, it starts with 'neglecting' salvation.

A Christian wouldn't just jump into murder. The fact that they were 'born again' would be in question.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 10:19 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Black Jim

your comment is not far fetched and I'm sure has happenned in several christians lives, But the reality is that satan is accusing the children of God day and night before God of their sins, and salvation comes on the day this accuser is cast down from laying the guilt trips about sin. Then those who are in Christ will recognize that they are of the family of God and act appropriately as ther heart desires to, because deep down in every Christians heart is a distasteful knowledge of the consequence of sin that they hate to be a part of. A true Born again Christian will detest sin in their spirit. Once a person understands who they are as a child of God they will act accordingly when they mature in the spirit.

Revelation 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Anonymous Coward
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12/17/2005 10:38 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Only when they realize they don't need it.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 11:10 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
snip<<<<<Also a born again can lose salvation. Once saved is not always saved.>>>>>>

Lets look at these verses you posted and see what they truly speak in God's light.


snip<<<<<Jude 5: “I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who *saved* a people out of the land of Egypt, *afterward destroyed* those who did not believe.” >>>>

In response to this verse, again the unbeliever is referring to those who DO NOT have the Spirit as said in verse 19 of the same chapter in Jude and later Jude goes on to talk about the true Holy faith

17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.

19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.


20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;

23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.




snip<<<<<Matt. 24:13: “He who endures to *the end* will be saved.” >>>>>


This verse in Matt. 24 is in regards to Israel and the tribulation period when God pours out His wrath upon the world because of unbelief..


snip<<<<<Phil. 2:12: “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”>>>>>
This was a corporate message to the church in Philippi and not to the complete universal church of Christ or individual Christians, and could be elaborated upon but instead lets look at some other Scriptures and see if this is how you suggest it is that each Christian is to work out their own personal salvation with the Lord in fear and trembling....

Psalm 37
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

Psalm 138
8 The LORD will perfect that which concerns me;
Your mercy, O LORD, endures forever;
Do not forsake the works of Your hands.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”


John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 1
6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.


Philippians 1

6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 1
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.


1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



1 John 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


I will spend some more time on the Hebrews passage you also poste and look into the grace in those verses
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 11:26 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
In regards to the verse in Phillippians regarding "work out your own salvation"

Just prior to that Paul said in Philippians 1

6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

So who is actually performing the work of salvation of man's soul and does what Paul said have anything to do with working towards personal salvation or would it read in context of the entire book of Philippians to see that Paul was talking about the state of immaturity that the church as a whole from the leadership to the teachers was that needed salvation, as Paul mentioned that there were no trustworthy teachers available in Philippi so he sent Timothy to take leadership of the Philippian church.
Anonymous Coward
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12/17/2005 11:33 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Salvation is strictly a Christian concept and not intrinsic to Man's relationship with the Cosmos.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/17/2005 11:45 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Salvation is strictly a Christian concept and not intrinsic to Man's relationship with the Cosmos.
_______________________________________

Actually Christian salvation is intrinsic to the Cosmos as the freedom from corruption and death is established first in God's chosen people and then released to all creation...

Romans 8

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
hoot no more
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12/18/2005 12:20 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
you can't lose something that never existed
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 12:52 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
lost mine in a game of texas hold 'em. never trust pocket jacks.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 12:57 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
friendofgawd is major food for the demons of Yor. cow
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 01:11 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
A co-worker of mine, who fancies herself the living voice of God Himself, says that you have to keep renewing your saved soul... that is, you have to keep re-saving it. Kinda like a Word Document or something, I guess. Keep saving or you'll lose the data you've entered.

I stopped listening to her and started planning where to hide her body when I finally get fed up.
i is that which i is
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12/18/2005 01:12 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
hi

Lester started this same thread some months ago and then proved that he could sin by judging others which is a sin according to the interpertation of the Bible according to many religionists.

Peace, light, and love. grouphug
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 02:33 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I'd like to go back to where someone quoted Heb. 6: 4-6. I don't think anyone explained this from a "once saved - always saved" standpoint. It certainly appears to me the people referred to here were partakers of the Holy Spirit and then fell away. It goes on to say renewal to repentence is impossible.

It sure looks like, to me, these are believers that have lost their salvation.

If this is the case then it explains what Paul meant in 1Thess. when he said the apostasy (falling away) would precede Christ's return. A wholesale turning away from Jesus by His own children. A sad state of affairs.

I think it is why Jesus instructed us to be "praying in order to have the strength to escape all these things that are about to take place."
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 04:01 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
54287 I agree

Being born again does not ensure you go to heaven, but it does ensure one's name is written in the Lamb's book of life.

But we have to live right, by the word.
To love God and our neighbour as our self.

AND have to always stay in forgiveness ie not live in unforgiveness of any kind.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 10:33 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I'd like to go back to where someone quoted Heb. 6: 4-6. I don't think anyone explained this from a "once saved - always saved" standpoint. It certainly appears to me the people referred to here were partakers of the Holy Spirit and then fell away. It goes on to say renewal to repentence is impossible.

_____________________________________

In order to understand what these verses are saying one must first have an understanding of grace, which is the elementary principle to the gospel.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

3And God permitting, we will do so.

Because the verses in Hebrews 6:4-6 are not talking about salvation and eternal security but are talking about falling from grace and turning back to the law as a form of righteousness. If this were talking about sin in any way then everyone who sinned after being forgiven by Christ would be lost completely with no ability to come God. And the author of Hebrews clarifies this in his opening 3 verses that the foundation of faith and the elementary principles of the gospel must be established before moving to the deeper things of the Lord.

Repentance is a change of mind from self-righteousness to righteousness in Christ, and is elementary. Without first understanding this, you have no faith.
And for those who have been shown all these things and turn and refuse the free gift of God and fall back to self-righteous works to justify yourself, there no longer remains any hope of salvation as there will not be another sacrifice to come. Jesus died once for all and the act of atonement for mankind never needs to be accomplished again. So there remains no more sacrifice for sin, and putting Christ to open shame is basically claiming that His work on the cross was insufficient..

And many of you here are in this place right now, and if you refuse the gift of Christ's sacrifice, and look for another sacrifice to come that is better, you are indeed putting Him to open shame.

Now instead of taking one passage and trying to form a doctrine of self-righteous works before God, it would be advisable to ask the Lord to open His Word to you in understanding, and to get the whole concept of what is being said read the whole chapter or even a few chapters back to understand what is the context of making a comment such as the verses in 4-6. You don't pick up any book and read a couple of lines from the book and judge the whole story on the lines you read do you?

Right after the author of Hebrews made this comment about Jesus being the one and only sacrifice for mankinds sin, he went on to confirm eternal salvation by the oath made by God who cannot lie.

13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."

15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.

16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.

17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.


When the bible talks about falling away it is in reference to falling away from grace and righteousness in Christ, back to works and self-righteousness.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 10:50 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. HE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO REACH OUT HIS HAND AND TAKE ALSO FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER."

23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 2

4 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 10:55 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
christian faith is based in naivete and or arrogance
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 11:01 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Christian faith is based solely on Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and not in any of our own endeavors, so that we are assured of no reason for arrogance.

Below is a typical remark from a poster who lacks trust in Jesus and is neglecting His work as complete.

QUOTE>>>>>>Being born again does not ensure you go to heaven, but it does ensure one's name is written in the Lamb's book of life.

But we have to live right, by the word.
To love God and our neighbour as our self.

AND have to always stay in forgiveness ie not live in unforgiveness of any kind.<<<<<<<


And thought these are indeed fruits of righteousness, they have nothing to do with obtaining salavation, and to act upon this concept shared as an ability to inherit salvation, is to put Christ to open shame.
beemerben
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12/18/2005 11:20 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Hey mopar what you said is not biblical about everybody having a second chance after the lord comes back. The bible says " today is the day of salvation". For those of you who believe the idea of a second chance you need to think a little deeper. If you don't get ready now and we have a savior who is both our judge and our advocate what makes you think you'll be saved in your own strength when Jesus says the following Rev22:11
He that is unjust let him be unjust still, and he which is filthy let him be filthy still and he that is righteous let him be righteous still and he that is holy let him be holy still... behold I come quickly and my reward is with me...

I realize from the comments that there are many who don't believe in heaven or hell or God or satan and that is your God given right (ooop's) well you know what I mean. But for those who do have faith, the idea of a secret rapture and then a second chance to get on the bus is one of satans biggest lies. After the fullness of time and I believe it's getting close, the number will be determined and HE will return.
The devil knows us better then we know ourselves and he is using that idea of a second chance because people love to put off things until the last minute. At least I know I do... how about you??? He loves the idea that we buy into the Oh I missed the first bus so I better get on the second one theory. And besides the bible says when Jesus comes back the wicked will be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. After all the soldiers that were guarding the tomb were struck down as dead men when just one angel showed up. Think how it will be when hundreds of millions are with him when he returns!
The only reason to put off giving your heart to him is we must not believe he can make us as happy as we want to be. Bottom line is maybe we need to look at our priorities. I know some have stopped reading this comment and thats ok, but for those who are interested just remember this, who benefits from everybody thinking if there saved they can't be lost and from the idea that if they don't make the first roll call they can file in at the back of the line?

Just my thoughts--- how about yours???
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 11:41 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Just my thoughts--- how about yours???
_______________________________________Beemerben thanks for the comments. I think Romans 10 expresses my thoughts best for what you shared...

Romans 10
1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)

7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

20 And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

21 But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."
cyanis

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12/18/2005 11:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
What if, you feel that you are born again, and that everything is forgiven by God, and your soul is OK. But, God doesn't see it that way. He feels that you need to do more than just ask for his forgiveness; you need to get the forgiveness of those you trespassed against. It isn't his problem, it is yours. Trans: Saying your sorry ain't going to mend the broken glass kids.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 11:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>Now instead of taking one passage and trying to form a doctrine of self-righteous works before God, it would be advisable to ask the Lord to open His Word to you in understanding<<

Friend:

I hope you don't think I am talking about losing salvation because of sinning. Certainly, outside of Christ, "all have sinned and fall short." "And if we do sin we have an advocate, Christ Jesus."

My point is that "by grace I am saved through faith." This faith makes me a partaker in the Holy Spirit. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him."
Therefore if at some point in my Christian walk I choose to give back the free gift of salvation (in other words stop believing that Christ paid the penalty for my sins) I am no longer covered by His atonement.

I fight tooth and nail against a gospel built on works and self-righteous acts. If works could save me I, personally, would never make it.

Understand also, please, that I don't live my life in fear that I could lose my salvation at any time. All I do is understand that I am a sheep and I NEVER want to lose sight of my shepherd, through disbelief.

sheep





GLP