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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 11:51 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
And as for the post on pretrib secret rapture vs. one time second coming, that sounds like another interesting thread. Put me down for Jesus comes back for all of us at the very end. No secret rapture.

Thankyou.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 12:04 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Therefore if at some point in my Christian walk I choose to give back the free gift of salvation (in other words stop believing that Christ paid the penalty for my sins) I am no longer covered by His atonement.

____________________________________

53850

Your entire post demonstrates your sincerity of heart towards God.

And what I snipped above is exactly what Hebrews 6 4-6 is referring to as far as faith in what Christ has done being cast aside as unimportant. Like I stated "repentance" is a change of mind from performing acts of dead works, to having faith in God as also stated in Hebrews 6 verse 1...

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,


Repenting is all about denying self-righteousness and taking up the cross of faith in Christ.

Knowing who you are in Christ is the victory over sin and death. This is the word of our testimony that overcomes death by the blood of the Lamb.

Like Hebrews also says later, we have this hope as an anchor, that has been sworn to us by God Himself and because there was no one greater than God, He made this oath by His own Word which cannot lie.

He will never leave you nor forsake you even until the end of the ages.
We all have sin crouching at our door and all of us have become tempted by it and stumble. But the power to make us stumble is in the legalism of the letter.

Here is an example of how grace works righteousness, When my daughter was 15 she started smoking pot. I didn't make a big issue of it but enlightened her to the disadvantages of what it can do, though many see weed as harmless, that is not true. So I didn't tellher she couldn't smoke pot, in fact I even toked with her a couple of times. When the act of being rebellious was removed from her and smoking pot was permissible but not edifying. She was able to decide for herself that she didn't need to smoke pot and quit. Even though many of her friends smoke pot and even do cocaine, There was no strength of sin in the law for her, so she was able to make a rational decision based apart from being a rebellious teenager.

The Lord does the same with us, He declares us righteous and removes the letter of the law from us so that there is no strength in sin to deceive us.. Does this make sense??
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 12:06 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
If you take the term "reborn christian" literally, it's kind of funny.... and gross.
SUPER STRUCTURE

User ID: 54559
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12/18/2005 12:09 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
No because Jesus saves for life not just for christmas. Haven't you seen the film of Jesus (Thanks Mel Gibson) yeh he really suffered for us to be saved. Beaten to a pulp died for you and me.
Who knows what the truth is???
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 12:15 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
super structure:

Could you please elaborate on what you are saying "no" to. Sorry, I am not following.
Jeremiah175

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12/18/2005 12:20 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Gospels and the epistles of Paul seem to indicate that one who has been "saved" can fall away by rejecting Christ Jesus or otherwise betraying the kingdom. However, I suppose that if one is really saved as it were, then to fall away would be impossible. If in the end you fall away then it would seem that you were never really saved to begin with, though you appeared to be.
www.thebreach.us
SUPER STRUCTURE

User ID: 54559
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12/18/2005 12:24 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Well 53850 -I'm actually answering no to the question. I think a person does not lose their salvation even if they do wrong things in their lives. Jesus forgives that is why he died and that I say no. and come to think of it what do you think?
Who knows what the truth is???
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 12:24 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
5392:

Yes, I get the gist of what you are saying. The pot analogy makes sense. Smoking pot doesn't keep you out of heaven. But it blurs the doorway. Jesus didn't die for us so we could smoke pot, He died for us to cover the sad truth that we might.

Actually, to take it further, that's really my whole point. Rebel enough, in whatever way, grieve the Spirit, start losing sight of Christ, and the road becomes dangerous.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 12:27 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
53850

Super Structure is responding to the thread title.
***********************************

Does Hebrews 6 say we are not covered by His atonement or that the only sacrifice we have is Christ and if we turn from this knowledge we have no more sacrifice for sin available.

Repentance is a term that is used in many wrong contexts, Many use repenting as turning from sin, but repenting is turning towards God and away from our own dead works or self-rightewousness. Turning from sin is a fruit of repentance.

As John the baptist also spoke of bring forth fruit of repentance to the brood of vipers who came to be baptized. John was declaring them to demonstrate that their repentance was in fact true. We all know who the brood of vipers were John spoke to, the hypocritical self-righteous teachers of the law.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 12:36 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Rebel enough, in whatever way, grieve the Spirit, start losing sight of Christ, and the road becomes dangerous.
************************************

Yes very true, and sin always brings forth death. But can a person lose their gift of eternal life and salvation in the spiritual realm once it is given to them? I would say no because God was quite concerned that mankind not reach out to the tree of life in theiir sinful state in the garden, because God declared that they woud then live forever in a fallen sinful state. Genesis 3 shared on page 2 of thread.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 12:39 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Superstructure:

Oops. You are responding to the thread title. Guess I should have figured that out. (This is only my second day of the brave new world of forums).

My thoughts and views are sprinkled through this thread.

Peace
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 12:40 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
God Himself builds us up on His holy faith alone. He chastises those He loves and tests the faith of those He has given faith to, to be sure it is faith of gold and not straw that is in ourselves.
SUPER STRUCTURE

User ID: 54559
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12/18/2005 12:44 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
53850 welcome and it does take a bit of getting used to. I think the only way you can lose your salvation is to grieve the Holy Spirit. This I was taught as a child. but I don't know really what that means do you help?
Who knows what the truth is???
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 01:02 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Two things need to be acknowledged First the Holy Spirit is grieved that we continue in the manner of the old self, and not follow the love that now exists within our heart, and second that the Holy Spirit has sealed us for the day of redemption.

But this verse does not say that we greive the Holy Spirit away from us as was possible in the Old Testament under the law when the Holy Spirit was not within our heart and spirit. The passage says that He can become greived by our actions of the old self which is sinful living. Just as I became greived when My child makes wrong choices.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 01:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Lord, give me wisdom.

We go through life and at some point are confronted with the gospel of Jesus Christ. We make a decision to accept or ignore Him. If we choose to accept we repent (make a concious effort to turn from our current state) and follow Him, through faith.

In our walk, we sometimes sin. God does not turn His back on us, we are still saved. We confess we screwed up, He forgives us.

Yes. Sinning grieves the Holy Spirit, but God promised me that He won't forsake me. If, however, I fall into a pattern of sin and rebellion (thereby not being renewed) the Spirit's witness to me becomes undiscernable.

Since it was His Spirit that showed me my salvation lay in Christ, through faith, I best listen. So if I quit listening, and fall for the original lie that I don't need Christ I in effect give back the gift He so freely gave me, which He Himself had promised He would never take away.

And that state is worse than not having partook in the first place.

Hope that wasn't long-winded.

Comments?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 01:38 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
If, however, I fall into a pattern of sin and rebellion (thereby not being renewed) the Spirit's witness to me becomes undiscernable.

*************************************

53850

I will comment on this portion of your post by asking you what you consider the Spirit's witness to you. Many think that it is accusation of sin in our lives, but it is not. The Spirit testifies and witnesses to us the Son of God and His righteousness. the accuser of the brethren points out sin in our life. To truly discern the Spirit of God from the spirit of the world, we must understand the elementary principles of the world and the elementary principles of Christ.

The elementary principles of the world evolve from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which glorifies the self as being able to perform and discern good and evil. It is a base for self-righteousness and is contradictory to the denying of our selves.

The elementary principles of Christ evolve from the tree of life, the free gift of eternal life apart from a reward from doing good over evil. The elemenatry foundation of the tree of life and Christ is faith alone in what God has done and given to us. This you already know to be true.

So when someone stumbles in sin, do they look to their own self as being unrighteous before God because they were unable to fulfill the law of good and evil, or do they rejoice in Christ because even though they have stumbled in their walk, they are not measured by their own righteousness but by the righteousness of Christ..

Jesus said of the Holy Spirit in John

John 16

14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

and also this....

John 16

8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


The Holy Spirit does not nor can He convict a believer of sin, only the unbeleiever is convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit.

He convicts the believer of righteousness because Jesus goes to the Father and risen from the dead.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 01:58 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>I will comment on this portion of your post by asking you what you consider the Spirit's witness to you<<

Friend:

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us, for after saying "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, and upon their mind I will write them. And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (Heb 10: 15-17)

The Holy Spirit's witness to me is that there is forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ. No other sacrifice is needed.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 02:14 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Holy Spirit reveals to me the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

So when Peter says:

For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse than the first.

This is the rejection of the witness of the Holy Spirit by a believer.

IMHO.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/18/2005 02:49 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
This is the rejection of the witness of the Holy Spirit by a believer.

IMHO.
______________________________________

53850

How can a believer be an unbeliever at the same time????

Once again the whole context of the chapter must be taken into the context of what Peter said in regards who he addressed this verse to and also the grace that is within the chapter must be examined..


2 Peter 2

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


Also cross this verse with who Jesus also said this in regards to....

23"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

24"When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'

25"And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order.

26"Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."

28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."


Christians can be in need of deliverance from devils. First we are taken out of slavery from Egypt, then we are in the wilderness doing battle with the demonic influences, then we enter the promised land.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 03:16 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>How can a believer be an unbeliever at the same time????<<

This is impossible of course.

Maybe it would help if I got your definition of "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 6). To me that says believer.
Black Jim

User ID: 47065
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12/18/2005 03:16 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Don't forget - Every body who is not Christian is going to hell,this includes - Buddhists,Jews,Moslems,Wiccans,Taoists,Hindus,Animists,and many other faiths.WRONG! Different cultures Have different ways they worship the 'Higher Power'. Along as you are a good person,who respects other good people of different faiths, everything is going to be alright afterlife or not.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 03:25 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
And who told them that they are saved anyhow...most born agains are self egotistical fools!!!

We shall see WHO is saved at the time od saving.........
Black Jim

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12/18/2005 03:27 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I know a Christain who often brings up religion during the times we talk,if I try to explain to him that there are others who worship in different ways to deities other than Jesus or his father God,this person becomes upset and raises his voice then says "they are all going to hell!"
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 03:54 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>this person becomes upset and raises his voice then says "they are all going to hell!"<<

That is too bad. Yelling doesn't further any cause.

I have to admit though that I am Christian and do believe the heaven/hell scenario.

Why do some get so uptight about what I believe, though.

You could tell me you don't believe me and that after we die there is nothing, blackness. I wouldn't care. That's your opinion.

You could say I am reincarnated as someone or something. So what? I don't believe that but I wouldn't blow a gasket.

Peace
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Kay
User ID: 1179
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12/18/2005 04:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Yes, 53850 I will comment:

You said:


If, however, I fall into a pattern of sin and rebellion (thereby not being renewed) the Spirit's witness to me becomes undiscernable.

----------------------------------


I think that if we fall into a pattern of rebellion, then we are not confessing our sins so that He can forgive them.

As it says in these passages:

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

Therefore, if we fall into a pattern of rebellion, we don't ask for forgiveness.

Also, this passage:

"Today if you hear His voice, do not rebel as you did in the desert... I swore in my wrath, they would never enter my rest."

------------

So, I agree, and there is some scriptural basis.
Black Jim

User ID: 47065
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12/18/2005 04:12 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Faith fed anger is a blight on Humanity. "My God is better than your God" or "My God is the only way to salvation" How many non Christians have died,nay murdered by the hands of Christians? Oh the madness and rage of a zealot.
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 04:33 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>Faith fed anger is a blight on Humanity<<

How true Black Jim.

I don't think my God is better than your God. I just don't believe in any other gods than my God.

So why curse and hate. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. I just happen to think I'm right. Is that arrogant?
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
Canada
12/18/2005 05:00 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Along as you are a good person,who respects other good people of different faiths, everything is going to be alright afterlife or not.
_______________________________________

Black Jim

This is the outcome of the original lie that brought death upon mankind in the first place.

In the spiritual sense you are saying that if you practice good over evil you will live. The foundation for your spiritual faith is based solely on the person's own self and their ability to perform the knowledge of good instead of evil.

Sorry but the kingdom of God has no place for anyone who wants to boast of their own accompishments, otherwise heaven would be in the same state as the earth is today, with pride as the ruling spirit. You either deny your own ability to be righteous and accept Christ's gift of holiness or you cannot come to the Father. Pretty simple really, it just takes anunderstanding of how evil evolves from selfish ambitions. And to pursue any other faith other than Christ is all rooted in the self's ability to perform.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 05:04 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

As you can see good works mean nothing without love from Christ and the Holy Spirit ruling our spirits.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2005 05:17 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Maybe it would help if I got your definition of "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 6). To me that says believer.
************************************

Jesus explains this best in this parable.....

The Parable of the Sower

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable:
5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.





GLP