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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
Black Jim

User ID: 47065
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12/18/2005 08:38 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Oh the power of Myth in the mind of a zealot.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 08:39 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
And from Matthew 10:


Jesus said:

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 08:39 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
And from Matthew 10:


Jesus said:

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 08:39 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
And from Matthew 10:


Jesus said:

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
Canada
12/18/2005 08:42 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>Not according to the Bible he isn't.<<

54628:

While I enjoy discussing this issue back and forth with you, and appreciate
your biblical knowledge, I must distance myself from this comment.

Only God can judge hearts and motives.

Despite the fact that I profess Christ I guess I'm not a Christian because I am a man with long hair. Surely against Paul's teaching!

And my son who was "shacked up" cannot be Christian either because clearly he is a fornicator.


And my brother in law who cheated on his wife. Surely an adulterer and not a Christian.

And my best friend (a church elder) smokes cigarettes so he clearly is defiling the temple of God and is not Christian.

If I cut my hair am I Christian then, or is there more I need to do?

Just wondering aloud Friend
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 08:43 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Yes, the truth will separate the weeds from the wheat. Again, Jesus does not want his followers killing each other or their neighbors or their enemies.
Black Jim

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12/18/2005 08:46 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
John says,Luke says,Matthew says....... Don't you people think for yourselves,instead of chanting mantras?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 08:47 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Being a Christian means many changes in a person's life. Not all can be made at once but changes need to be made. And just because someone is not living a Christian life at this moment does not mean they won't change and fix things later on. Do I know Bush's heart condition. Not at all. But I do know that he is not following Jesus command to put down the sword and be not of this world even though he is in it. Again, changes must be made.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11

"Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 08:48 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
John says,Luke says,Matthew says....... Don't you people think for yourselves,instead of chanting mantras?




When has war actually led to peaceful conditions for all on this earth?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 08:50 PM
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SHEEP
User ID: 53850
12/18/2005 8:42 PM



You can also put all those questions into prayer. God wants to hear from all of us and He will answer. But sometimes the answers are things we do not want to hear.
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 08:55 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>John says,Luke says,Matthew says....... Don't you people think for yourselves,instead of chanting mantras?<<

Hello Black Jim

I don't think of it as a mantra. I use the bible as a reference book to guide me to Christ. John and Luke are just people that I respect whom I quote. I think for myself only as I feel the Spirit has led me. In that sense I am a sheep.

People always say "Imagine theres no heaven" and say what a wise man John Lennon was. Is that a mantra by unthinking people or just a reference to someone they respect.

Peace
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
.
User ID: 54540
China
12/18/2005 09:00 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
BJ,
ever been to school and learnt something from a book? Have you ever read something , agreed with it and then paraphrased it, you know you have, and i know you have, so why the hypocritical attitude about the Bible?
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
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12/18/2005 09:00 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>You can also put all those questions into prayer<<

I have prayed much and am convinced that by grace I am saved through faith,
it is not as a result of works.

I guess we just disagree and that's all right.

Peace
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Black Jim

User ID: 47065
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12/18/2005 09:02 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
For them the world is not ending soon enough, so they must bring it about so they can have their sweet rapture,start world war three,destroy the earth so Jesus can come and take all of them to cloud city.In short Armageddonist.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 09:06 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I have prayed much and am convinced that by grace I am saved through faith,
it is not as a result of works.



So you believe you can live your life however you wish?
.
User ID: 54540
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12/18/2005 09:07 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Sheep having long doesnt preclude you from Him, what length was considered long at that time of writing , as well scripture gives clear indication about such things from other references, if you dont take all that scripture has to say about a subject into account , you do yourself and others a diservice( ie least in the kingdom of heaven etal), and that BJ is why we should study His word to show ourselves approved by Him and not religious orgs, neither should it be mere head knowledge , but wisdom gained and the wisdom from above freely shared, not hidden under a basket.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 09:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11

"Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. **And such were some of you**: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."


I know I posted this above but pay attention to the part "And such were some of you". That means followers of Jesus were once doing such things but they changed with the help of the holy spirit. Changes must be made. But the gift is free.
SHEEP

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12/18/2005 09:08 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>For them the world is not ending soon enough, so they must bring it about so they can have their sweet rapture<<

Again Black Jim some Christians don't think there is a secret rapture. (I for one). I'm not on this forum for any other reason than to discuss Jesus Christ and what He means to me. He surely will return but I don't think He'll adjust His timetable for a man made war.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
United States
12/18/2005 09:10 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
so they must bring it about so they can have their sweet rapture,



No human can speed things up. Sadly, some try.
.
User ID: 54540
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12/18/2005 09:13 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
actually BJ many, not just so called rapurists want it to end soon, new agers , TPTB etc, and the rapture is wrong, yes there will be a catching away and the glorified bodies(and more), but not to desert this world as it goes through the changes, in fact scripture says woe to those who desire the day of YHVH for it will be a terrible time, but we are also told by scripture to pray, come soon Lord Yahsua/Jesus
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 09:15 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Also remember that being a Christian is not easy. It takes exertion.


Luke 13:24

Strive(or exert) to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


Matthew 7:13-14


"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to
destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to
life, and only a few find it."
Lester

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12/18/2005 09:15 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Is someone who will not identify themselves as "Christian" a Christian?


MacRobin the Knife has a clue on this. Christ Jesus HAS Already blotted out names from The Lamb's Book of Life.

Those who were once Abiding In-HIM but chose to seek Self, rather than continue to abide by HIS Guidance; became prodigal. Some repented and ReUninoned with HIM; some did not.

Those who did not are they who have rejected The Gospel. They are condemned per Jesus' Witness.

HIS Witness: The Direct Testimony of God The Son.


We discussed Ezekiel 36:24-28 today in HomeChurch. Powerful Witness there that God Gives through HIS Prophet.

The New Heart of flesh, made to live in Accord With HIM, replacing our non-Surrendered hearts of stone. Once Surrendered and ReBorn; able to Keep HIS Statutes, Abide In HIS Judgments and Do HIS Will.

--------------------------------------------


I have witnessed here since March 04 about what having Relationship With HIM means and is about.

You either KNOW HIM or you do not.

No questions. No maybes. No conjecture.

Certainly no need to be wordy or scholarly.


Jesus Witnesses in John 3 18-20 that those who Love HIM will not be condemned.

Those who are not condemned; that is the status of most Christians who do not seek to pontificate and spread anti-Christ witness and confusion.

If you KNOW God, then you have Truly Been Born-Again.

If you don't Know HIS Voice, HIS Touch and remember every detail about contacts with HIM that you have had; then likely you are just confused.

This is the Time of Confusion/Deception. Only the Very Elect cannot be deceived.

If you KNOW HIM, HE Abides Within;
Thus no posibility exists for your confusion.



Prior to this year's Yom Kippur; any Born-Again Christian could certainly reject God; but they could not "lose" their Salvation.

Once saved always saved is just well-wishers whistlling in the dark. Like the pre/mid trib rapture.

If you KNOW God, you cannot know any lie of HIM. HIS Witness, The Holy Spirit is Alive Within. You cannot be deceived.


Pretty Amazingly Easy to witness what you know; if you Abide In-HIM.

Maranatha
TRAINED FOR THIS

User ID: 19962
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12/18/2005 09:23 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
This question has been hard to answer by most and takes a bit of explanation. I will only give the answer and expand upon that answer later this eveining when I return from church.

The answer has some GOOD news and some BAD news. A person can NEVER lose their salvation but the bad news is that they can become SAVED and yet not be the recipient of the REWARD that salvation allows for..... ETERNAL LIFE!

This person will truly have salvation that cannot be taken away or lost and yet miss out on eternal life. You should be now considering that SALVATION and ETERNAL LIFE are two DIFFERENT things. I will explain later. Remember that ETERNAL LIFE is the REWARD given to all who have properly utilized their salvation and their salvation has already been paid for and can NEVER become UNPAID!

Thanks for asking..........
James.
User ID: 54760
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12/18/2005 09:32 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Sheep;

In all actuality it is Wrong for a True Follower of Christ Jesus to be Defiled by This World this Includes the Cutting of the Hair and Beard as These are a Type of Defilement read the story of Sampson and How he Was Defiled.

This Scripture has Been MisRepresented by a Fallen Church.

Thank you Lester for your truth to macRobin and your due diligence in the Matter at hand in referance to this thread.

And ThanX to cc for starting such a Good Dischusion(sp?).

Thanx to all who posted the Scriptures in ref. this Matter.

Peace to ALL.

James.
bike
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54628
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12/18/2005 09:36 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Samson was a Nazarite. Those who were born Nazarites(like John the Baptizer) and those who took a vow later in life did not cut their hair. But all Jews other than them had short hair. This includes Jesus who had short hair also.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/18/2005 09:56 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Also remember that being a Christian is not easy. It takes exertion.
***********************************

Lots of interesting comments since I left...

54628

I am reading a lot of the theology that you are sharing and the root of what you say seems to divert from the fulness of grace that is offered through Christ. The underlying tone to the words that are spoken don't really glorify Jesus for His work on the cross but take a turn to self ability in your 3 part salvation heresay. the sealing of the Holy Spirit is the assurance of salvation and the glorification that is the outcome of those who are sealed is futuristic but also present in the heavenly realms, We are seated with Christ in heavenly places, yet we are going through the trials of the world.
Being a Christian is all about resting in Christ, who is our sabbath rest. To think that you must exert yourself is to deny that Christ really meant "It is finished"
When you fully understand how Jesus disarmed the powers and principalities of their death grip on mankind, then you will understand that nothing more needs to be done. Sure their are rewards for a person's obedience to the faith, but when it comes right down to it, the reward is not in the work done but is for the Heart's motive for doing God's will. Apart from Jesus we can do nothing.

These rewards do not add one measure of grace that saves. And nothing can add to what Jesus did for us, if their was then what Jesus did was irrelevant to defeat the powers of darkness. But only by His free gift of holiness can the powers of darkness be defeated, that had their grip on mankind. If you think there is something to add, then you don't understand grace and how it alone has the ability to defeat selfish ambition and works. If mankind could do anything to add merit to his salvation, then grace doesn't come into play in any way, and the powers of darkness are not defeated.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2005 10:31 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The cross of Christ is often cited as being the death of the law, and it is commonly stated that in Christ the believer is dead to the law. Romans 7: 4 - 6 is cited as evidence for this opinion, although nothing is said about Romans 8 : 4. St. Paul's point is that we are free from the law, or dead to the law, as a sentence of death against us, but we are alive to it as the righteousness of God. Christ, as our substitute, died for us, and we are dead unto the law in Him, and also alive unto the law in Him. The very death of Christ confirmed the law: it revealed that God regards the death penalty as binding for violation of His law, so that only the atoning death of Christ could remove the curse of the law against sinners.

In Ephesians 2 : 1 - 10, St. Paul makes clear again the meaning of the law in relationship to the cross. In commenting on St. Paul's description of sinners as "dead in trespasses and sins" (vs. 1), Calvin stated:

He does not mean that they were in danger of death; but he declares that it was a real and present death under which they laboured. As spiritual death is nothing else than the alienation of the soul from God, we are all born as dead men, and we live as dead men, until we are made partakers of the life of Christ,—agreeably to the words of our Lord, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live" (John v. 25 ).

In this condition of spiritual death, men are governed by demonic forces and impulses in fulfilment of their own sinful nature (vss. 2, 3 ) as "children of disobedience"; Calvin commented on this latter phrase, "Unbelief is always accompanied by disobedience; so that it is the source—the mother of all stubbornness." Very bluntly, Calvin affirmed after St. Paul "that we are born with sin, as serpents bring their venom from the womb."

What then is the remedy for man? Clearly, the remedy is not the law. Man has broken the law, is dead in sin and cannot keep the law. Calvin pointed out, of Ephesians 2 : 4, that "there is no other life than that which is breathed into us by Christ: so that we begin to live only when we are ingrafted into him, and begin to enjoy the same life with himself." Our salvation is entirely of God's grace, totally His work (vs. 8 ). In Calvin's words, "God declares that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. . . . If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us." The faith itself is the gift of God (vs. 8 ). All Scripture is emphatic: God is man's only redeemer; the law is not given as man's way of salvation but as God's way of righteousness, His law for His chosen people, His kingdom. The law therefore came "through Moses" (John 1 : 17 )—from God through Moses—because it is the law for God's kingdom. Where converted into a way of salvation, the law is perverted. Where the law represents the government and obedience of faith, there the law fulfils its God-given purpose. In Calvin's words again, "man is nothing but by divine grace."
In Ephesians 2:10, St. Paul declares, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Calvin noted,

He says, that, before we were born, the good works were prepared by God; meaning, that in our own strength we were not able to lead a holy life, but only as far as we are formed and adapted by the hand of God. Now, if the grace of God came before our performances, all ground of boasting has been taken away.

Plainly, therefore, we are regenerated "unto good works," that is, unto obedience to God's law-word, and the purpose of our salvation, ordained beforehand by God, is this obedience.

But, some object, the law is called "carnal" in Scripture, as witness Hebrews 7 : 16. Calvin stated, "It was called carnal, because it refers to things corporeal, that is, to external rites." When St. Paul summons believers to "temperance," he is asking for obedience in a "carnal," that is, corporeal matter as well as with respect to an attitude of mind (Gal. 5:23).

The calling of believers is unto liberty, which means, St. Paul said, to love one another, i.e., to fulfil the law in relationship to one another (Gal. 5:13-14). In relationship to our fellow men and to God, the works of our fallen human nature are these:

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law (Gal. 5:19-23).

St. Paul attacked the law as a saving ordinance, as man's way of salvation; he upheld the law as man's way of sanctification rather than justification. After citing lawless behavior, beginning with adultery, he cites godly behavior and says of it, "against such there is no law." Obviously, against the other catalogue of actions, beginning with adultery, there is a law, the law as given by God through Moses.

Thus, clearly, the law still stands. The implication of St. Paul's words is that there is a law against the catalogue of sins of Galatians 5 : 19 - 21 ; moreover, in terms of Ephesians 2 : 10, we are God's new creation for the purpose of keeping His law and performing good works. In what sense, then, is the law dead, or even wrong, and in what sense does it still stand?

First, as we have seen, the law as a sentence of death is finished when the guilty party dies or is executed. For believers, the death of Christ means that they are dead in Him to the death sentence of the law, since Christ is their substitute (Rom. 7 : 1 -6 ). This does not permit us to call the law "sin," for the law itself made us aware of our sinfulness before God, and our need of His Savior (Rom. 7 : 7 -12 ).

Second, our salvation in Jesus Christ sets forth the salvation by God's gracious act which is the only doctrine of salvation all Scripture sets forth. The sacrificial and ceremonial law set forth the fact of salvation through the atoning act of a God-given substitute, an animal whose innocence typified the innocence of the one to come. The Messiah, the Lamb of God, having come, the old, typical laws of sacrifice and their priesthood and ceremonies were succeeded by the atoning work of Christ, the great High Priest (Heb. 7 ). It is a serious error to say that the civil law was also abolished, but the moral law retained. What is the distinction between them? At most points, they cannot be distinguished. Murder, theft, and false witness are clearly civil offenses as well as moral offenses. In almost every civil order, adultery and dishonoring parents have also been civil crimes. Do these people mean, by declaring the end of civil law, that the Old Testament theocracy is no more? But the kingship of God and of His Christ is emphatically asserted by the New Testament and especially by the book of Revelation. The state is no less called to be under Christ than is the church. It is clearly only the sacrificial and ceremonial law which is ended because it is replaced by Christ and His work.

Third, the law is condemned by the New Testament as a means of justification, which it was never intended to be. The law is not our means of justification or salvation, but of sanctification. Phariseeism had perverted the meaning of the law and made it "of none effect," according to Christ's declaration (Matt. 15 : 1 -9 ). What the Pharisees called the law was "the commandments of men" (Matt. 15 : 9 ), and against this Christ and St. Paul levelled their attack. The law in this sense never had any legitimate status and must in every age be condemned. The alternative to antinomianism is not Phariseeism or legalism. The answer to those who want to save man by law is not to say that man needs no law.

Phariseeism or legalism leads to statism. If law can save man, then the answer is that society must work to institute a total law order, to govern man totally by laws and thus remake man and society. This is the answer given by statism, which invariably draws its strength from Pharisaic religion. Socialism and communism are saving law orders, and the call by preachers of the social gospel for a "saving society" is an expression of faith in man's law as savior. This latter point is important: God's law does not permit itself to be assigned a saving role, and as a result man devises a humanistic law-order for the total regeneration of man and society by means of total government. Biblical law has a limited role; a saving law must have an unlimited power, and as a result, Biblical law is replaced by Phariseeism with a total law. The modesty of God's law was an offense to the Pharisees. Thus, whereas the law required only one fast a year, on the Day of Atonement, and then only until sundown, the Pharisees fasted twice a week (Luke (18 : 12 ). A yearly fast which ended in a banquet involved no government over man; a twice-weekly fast both governs man and becomes a means of self-commendation before God and man.

The law is thus to be condemned when it is made into more than law, when it is made into a savior, or a favor done to God rather than man's necessary obedience and response to God's mandate and calling. Law is law, not salvation, and the law as savior leads to statism and totalitarianism.

Antinomianism, on the other hand, leads to anarchism. Religious antinomians are usually practical rather than theoretical anarchists. Their disinterest in law leads them to surrender the civil order to the enemy and to further the decline of law and order. Although antinomians would be shocked if called anarchists, they must be so designated. The logical implication of their position is anarchism. If Christ has abolished the law, why should society maintain it? If the Christian is dead to the law, why should not the Christian church, state, school, family, and calling be also dead to the law? A consistent faith on the part of antinomians would require them to be anarchists, but perhaps consistency is itself too much of a virtue, too much of a law, and too intelligent a position to ask from such stupidity.

The law in every age sets forth the holiness of God. The holiness of God is His absolute distinction from all His creature and creation, and His transcendent exaltation above them in His sovereign and infinite majesty. This separation of God is also His moral separation from sin and evil and His absolute moral perfection. As Berkhof noted,

The holiness of God is revealed in the moral law, implanted in man's heart, and speaking through the conscience, and more particularly in God's special revelation. It stood out prominently in the law given to Israel.

There can be no holiness, no separation unto God, without the law of God. The law is indispensable to holiness.

The law is also basic to the righteousness of God. Again, Berkhofs phrasing is to the point:

The fundamental idea of righteousness is that of strict adherence to the law. Among men it presupposes that there is a law to which they must conform. It is sometimes said that we cannot speak of righteousness in God, because there is no law to which He is subject. But though there is no law above God, there is certainly a law in the very nature of God, and this is the highest possible standard, by which all other laws are judged. A distinction is generally made between the absolute and the relative justice of God. The former is that rectitude of the divine nature, in virtue of which God is infinitely righteous in Himself, while the latter is that perfection of God by which He maintains Himself over against every violation of His holiness, and shows in every respect that He is the Holy One. It is to this righteousness that the term "justice" more particularly applies.

The righteousness of God is revealed in the law of God, and the norm by which men are declared to be sinners is their violation of God's law. The sin of Adam and Eve was their violation of God's law, and the criterion of a man's faith is the fruit he bears, his works, in brief his conformity to the law of God, so that the law is his new life and nature (Matt. 7:16-20; James 2:17-26; Jer. 31:33). In the neglect or defiance of God's law, there can be neither righteousness nor justice. To forsake God's law is to forsake God.

The law is also basic to sanctification. Sanctification cannot be confused, as Berkhof pointed out, with mere moral rectitude or moral improvement.

A man may boast of great moral improvement, and yet be an utter stranger to sanctification. The Bible does not urge moral improvement pure and simple, but moral improvement in relation to God for God's sake, and with a view to the service of God. It insists on sanctification. At this very point much ethical preaching of the present day is utterly misleading: and the corrective for it lies in the presentation of the true doctrine of sanctification. Sanctification may be defined as that gracious and continuous operation of the Holy Spirit, by which He delivers the justified sinner from the pollution of sin, renews his whole nature in the image of God, and enables him to perform good works.

According to St. Paul, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10 : 17 ) ; the law is written into every fiber of that word. If this law-word is basic to faith and to hearing, it is clearly basic to the believer's growth in sanctification. Sanctification depends on our law-keeping in mind, word, and deed. The perfection of the incarnate Word was manifested in His law-keeping; can the people of His kingdom pursue their calling to be perfect in any way other than by His law-word?

If the law is denied as the means of sanctification, then, logically, the only alternative is Pentecostalism, with its antinomian and unbiblical doctrine of the Spirit. Pentecostalism does, however, represent a very logical outgrowth of antinomian theology. If the law is denied, how is man then to be sanctified? The answer of the Pentecostal movement was an attempt to fill this lack. Protestant theology left man justified but without a way to be sanctified. The holiness movement, with its belief in the instant perfection of all believers, ran so clearly counter to common sense: any observer could see that the holiness people were and are extremely far from perfection! The answer of Protestant Pentecostals and Roman Catholic ascetics and ecstatics has been this doctrine of the Spirit. Ostensibly super-normal and antinomian manifestations of the Spirit place the believer on a higher plane. Many parallel movements, like Keswick, cultivate this higher way as the alternative to law for sanctification. These movements at least represent a logical concern for sanctification, although an illicit one. Deny the law, and your alternatives are either indifference to sanctification, or Pentecostalism and similar doctrines.

The disinterest in or contempt for canon law is a part of this anti-nomianism. To separate the law from the gospel is to separate oneself from the law and the gospel, and from Christ. When God the Father regarded the law as so binding on man that the death of God's incarnate Son was necessary to redeem man, He could not regard that law as something now trifling, or null and void, for man. Man is saved "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled" in him (Rom. 8 :4 ). To say that man is no longer under the law, and yet obliged to avoid murder, adultery, theft, false witness, and other sins, is to play with words. Either a law is a law and is binding, or it is no law, and man is not bound but is free to commit those acts.

The commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," means that man's life cannot be taken. Is not the perversion of the word of life a means of taking or injuring life? Must not false preachers be termed murderers? In an age when the foundations of law are under attack, the faithful servant of God will most zealously and clearly proclaim that law. In Martin Luther's words,

If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at the moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proven, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides, is merely flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

With Adam's fall, man fell, and God's law-order was broken. With Christ's victory, man in Christ triumphed, and God's law-order was restored, with its mandate to exercise dominion under God and to subdue the earth. Can any man of God proclaim less?
Kay
User ID: 1179
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12/18/2005 10:53 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
the sealing of the Holy Spirit is the assurance of salvation and the glorification that is the outcome of those who are sealed is futuristic but also present in the heavenly realms, We are seated with Christ in heavenly places, yet we are going through the trials of the world.


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Friend of God, I believe that the controversy happens because we don't understand the TIMELESSNESS of God.

It has already happened, we are seated with Christ, but we can't really understand this because unlike God, we are stuck in time.
friendofGod  (OP)

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12/18/2005 11:24 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Hi Kay

Yes there is alot that we only now see dimly because of the sphere we are in.

The whole complete work of Christ was accomplished with the theif on the cross, yet he never had any opportunity to work out his salvation as some say must be accomplished or sanctify his life through any other measure than the belief in his heart that Jesus was the Son of God. His faith alone guaranteed the theif release from the sentence of death on his soul.

As for the above post regarding the fulfillment of God's law being upheld, then that would also mean that God was under His own law. But when God is absolute Truth is there a need for any law to be established to rule His nature. When the perfect comes which is love, all things including faith and hope will be done away with. And this is what Christ accomplished by sealing and indwelling His chosen with His Spirit, He joined them to Himself in His holiness and truth making us one with Him. We are joined to Him in marriage as His bride, and to be one with Him is all that is necessary to overcome all rebellion.
The powers of darkness existed before mankind was created. If man had not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and disobeyed God would it have been possible to defeat these powers through man's obedience?? No, only by the sacrifice of God Himself could these powers be defeated and cast down. Mankind's fall from God in the beginning was necessary in order for Christ to be sent, and His act of love could only be seen as such if mankind needed redeeming in the first place. The principalities of darkness could not see this, or they would not of crucified Christ the Lord, and also those who have been blinded are blinded from seeing the wisdom of God's plan by His graceful act of selflessness.

seeing they will not see and hearing they will not understand, or they would turn to God and be saved.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
SHEEP

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12/18/2005 11:59 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Friend of God:

Back to the original question "can a born again Christian lose their salvation?"

RE: The parable of the Sower.

It's ironic how 2 people with opposing views can use the same scripture to support their case. Oh well, here goes.

I always understood the 1st group to be those who just never get saved.

I understood the 2nd group to be those who believed in Christ (with a saving knowledge) and then for whatever reason, they fell away (turned their backs on God's saving grace).

I understood the 3rd group to be those who retained their faith but just don't lead an overcoming Spirit-filled life. Lots of hay in that pile.

And the final group are achieving varying levels of success in their walk to be "not conformed to the world but transformed through the renewing of their mind".


In the final analysis I'm not sure that being on one side of the fence or the other is critical. I again state that I don't live in fear that I will fall from grace. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our tresspasses" is something I could never deny.

Agree to disagree, brother?
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.





GLP