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Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 52939
United States
12/20/2005 12:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
There is a Christian is born everyday.

Pass the collection bucket to them!
TRAINED FOR THIS

User ID: 19962
United States
12/20/2005 12:45 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
SHEEP,

"RE: Trained For This post:

I must be hard of hearing today. I don't really follow what you are saying either.

I guess you are comparing life in eternity to the life of the parents of the Nephilim. Is that correct?

Right before He destroyed the world in a flood because of how evil it was.

Are those the guys or am I out to lunch.
***************************************

REPLY: I am comparing the WORK/JOBS of "sons of God" ON ASSIGNMENT on the earth (mentioned in Genesis) to the FUTURE sons of God like you and me who are waiting for our glorified bodies that will become manifested unto the "sons of God" just like the others everywhere in the Universe.

Thanks for asking............
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
Canada
12/20/2005 12:48 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Lucius Joseph:

I read your post with interest but still can't get a handle on what you are telling me. (Maybe it's me).

I'll try this.

There is a resurrection at the return of Christ. The dead in Christ rise first (Christians and others like Daniel). Then the living Christians are caught up.

Both groups are transformed from mortal to immortal and imperishable (in the twinkling of an eye) .

This is the 1st resurrection.

Then we all stand before Christ in eternal, immortal, unperishable bodies and our works are judged. Hay and straw burn away so the reward is small,
gold doesn't so the reward is greater.

But all of these are in the Book of Life, escape the Lake of Fire, and are told "well done my good and faithful servant" because they overcame the world through the blood of Jesus Christ.

It's late where I am so tell me if that is what you are saying and we can go from there at a later date.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
beemerben
User ID: 54593
United States
12/20/2005 01:41 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
There are no verses that speak of a 7 year trib in the Bible what-so-ever!

Hey Sheep just a side note about the misconception of either a 7 year or a 3 1/2 year trib. If you read my earlier post about how it will be impossible to be saved once our mediator puts on his kingly robes and once and for all leaves to come take his children home you'll see how the 7 and 3 1/2 year ideas seal the fate of anyone who believes them. Because people procrastinate (ask me how I know :)and tend to put things off till they have to make a decision it will not be possible to save ourselves. And that is what the ministers who push that theory are suggesting. Not to mention the fact that if you miss the first resurrection and the coming of Jesus you've missed it all. The idea that after Christ comes back and takes the righteous home there will be 144,000 little billy grahams running around to gather up the ones who didn't make the first roll call is a huge lie!

Do you see how the myth of either trib idea is one of the biggest lies ever concocted by the devil. Looks like he knows us better then we know ourselves. I repeat today is the day of salvation. The bible says that the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming so exactly who would be left to save themselves??? When you think about the devil being bound, it's not possible to bind him with chains or anything for that matter. He is bound by a chain of circumstances. For 1,000 years (the millennium) there will be no one on the earth to tempt. That is what is meant by the devil was bound. After the 1,000 years in heaven the bible says the devil was loosed and goes out to rally the people. That is known as the second resurrection.

I realize everybody has their own ideas and as usual I welcome any difference of opinion
NewSELFInChrist
GLP

User ID: 55158
United States
12/20/2005 01:57 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
bee. You are in part correct, And in part you are Incorrect.

It is found in the Scriptures when Rightly Divided.

The Second comming of Christ is Not when Jesus Returnes persay but Rather when The Next son of God Comes.

Will the Word be Ready for His Arival.

He IS Knot like the other two.

Adam was the First, The Alpha Device Adminastrative Module ADAM.

Jesus is the second The Alpha & Omega.


The Third, the Second Comming is Differant it is the Omega.

God's Potentate.
Bottom Line Take it or Leave it.
That's Life.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
Canada
12/20/2005 08:20 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
The Second comming of Christ is Not when Jesus Returnes persay but Rather when The Next son of God Comes.

**************************************

Acts 1:11
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/20/2005 08:25 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Adam was the First, The Alpha Device Adminastrative Module ADAM.

Jesus is the second The Alpha & Omega.


The Third, the Second Comming is Differant it is the Omega.

God's Potentate.
***************************************

NewSelfinChrist

Your post is way out there.
Jesus Christ is God, the Creator, YHWH.
always was and always will be. Jesus created Adam, who was a man only.
friendofGod  (OP)

User ID: 5392
Canada
12/20/2005 09:15 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Please note that this person has already been born, not of blood, not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by God. Because this birth starts together with our physical birth.Because all mankind were begotten by Jesus Christ at His resurrection. (1Pet.1:3)

***************************************
LJ

I am gathering that you are denying that the Holy Spirit gives birth to mankind when they hear the call of Jesus and receive Him, and are saying that all of mankind since Christ resurrected from death are born of the Spirit.
But this is not true. There are children of God and children of the devil. Not all have the kingdom of God ruling their spirits, only those who have been born of the Spirit.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 47217
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12/20/2005 10:36 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I just now saw this thread for the first time and haven't yet had time to read it -- so I'm sure alot of ground has been covered. I just put up a post on another thread about Chuck Smith on this same subject -- I'll just copy it here for now:

==========================================

55201,
I agree completely with the concepts upheld in your post -- the eternal security of the believer. If the eternal life that has already been granted you in Christ can be lost and taken away, then God is only offering a "chance" for salvation and it apparently does depend on human merit after all.

Whatindeed CAN be "lost" and depends on response and yielding, is intimate fellowship with God, and discipleship, and rewards -- but not salvation itself. What Chuck Smith teaches is just another brand of "lordship theology" -- that surrender of the will precedes salvation. Actually it is the other way around.

The debate about eternal security as evidenced more recently by Calvinism versus Arminianism has been going on throughout church history. Each side can claim scriptures to support their viewpoint. I maintain that any scriptures that seem on the surface to inidicate that salvation can be lost can be explained in context of the book and the full revelation of the entire New Testament.

But if you're a "Calvinist," the only possible conclusion is that God has predestined some to be saved and some to be lost ... some are never called. That leads to the logical conclusion that God is unfair. I don't buy that. That's one reason why I'm a universalist -- eventually, in the future ages and dispensations (see Ephesians) the entire universe will be redeemed and brought into a state of union with Christ. Meanwhile there are interim periods of jurisdiction and judgment. So I believe that the scripture clearly teaches that once begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit, salvation cannot be lost -- and also that ultimately "in the dispensation of the fullness of times," all will be saved.
Person1
User ID: 9187
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12/20/2005 10:55 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
No, a true born-again Christian CANNOT lose their salvation.

That verse is speaking of the inner-man. The inner-man, Christ, cannot sin. All Christians have an inner-man and an outer-man. Eph. 3:16

"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:20

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the attitude that, "hey, I can sin and it's not me, so God can't say anything, haha!" No, that's not the spirit God gave me.

The outer-man is the man of the flesh that we struggle with on a daily basis, which is why we are commanded to "take up our cross DAILY."

God has determined his family from the foundation of the world and will cause them do these things.
KHOSANNA

User ID: 12443
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12/20/2005 12:20 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Once you get born again, that's it. You will always be a child of God and saved.

Think of it this way---

You are the child of your parents. No matter what you do, you cannot change it. Your biological heritage is not lost because you change your name or you get adopted.

Same with God as your Father. When you get born again (see Rom. 10:9-10), you receive holy spirit as a kind of spiritual heritage.

Now, you can be born again and go out and sin like crazy, but that's only because you don't know everything you need to know about your life in Christ. The Bible tells you all about that.

Believers will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ, but it will be to receive rewards (crowns), not to be condemned.
Lucius Joseph
User ID: 55419
Antigua and Barbuda
12/20/2005 08:33 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Caller ID 5380

There are two resurrections.The first resurrection is only for those who overcome the flesh by condemning sin in the flesh just as Christ overcame (Rev. 3:21). They will all be kings and priest of God and will rule with Him for one thousand years. (Rev.5:10, 20:4). They are those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, who will be given life to their mortal bodies (Rom.8:11).

But the rest of the dead (including those who are saved by accepting Jesus as their Savior, but did not overcome the flesh, or obedient to His commandments) did not live again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5).

All during the one thousand year reign of Christ they will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The parables of Jesus Christ gave us the example of, "Sons of the kingdom" - the unbelieving Jews (Matt.8:12). The man without a wedding garment (Matt.22:11-13). The five foolish virgins(Matt.25:11-12). The unfaithful servant (lk.12:45-46). Notice, the unfaithful servant had his life cut in two and had his portion with the hypocrites and unbelievers.

But after the one thousand year reign, and Satan is allowed to deceive the world again for a short time, there will be another resurrection of all who ever lived;Those whose names were written in the book of life, were not cast into the lake of fire, they escaped the second death.

What I am saying is not the popular teaching, but this is my point;

The gift of life we all received at birth. The same way we inherited the physical sinful life from the first Adam, we also inherited spiritual righteous life from the last Adam (Rom.5:18-19).We are the offspring of both the first Adam whose heridity we carry in the flesh, and the offspring of the Last Adam , the Spirit man from heaven, whose heridity we carry in the spirit. This two natures are in conflict with each other. (Gal.5:16-17).But the righteous life of the last Adam has to be practiced in order to become righteous (1Jn.3:7), and this righteousness is all of God's commandments (Ps 119:172).

When some one receives and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, this person has already been born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If one had to receive eternal life on acceptance of Jesus Christ, he would have received it by his own will.(see Jn.1:12-13).

Therefore, what transpires when someone receives Jesus Christ, repents, and is baptized and receives the Holy Spirit, it is not a spiritual birth as most people teach. When the Holy Spirit is joined to our spirit and we become one with the Lord, it is to bear witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God.(Rom.8:16). We at this moment receives the right or authority to become children of God (Jn.1:12) One is at this moment transfered from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the son of His love(Col.1:13).

Those who have not accepted Jesus Christ although they are in Him, for in Him we all live and move and have our being, He is the vine and we are the branches, we are all the sons of the Resurrection, we were all begotten by Him at His resurrection;Therefore we are all spirit beings in a physical body; But unless He dwells in us we are not His. It is written, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His"(Rom.8:9).

Hence there is nothing one can do to receive or lose his salvation except to believe or not to believe in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Jn 3:14-15).

But John 3:16,is not the same as Jn 3:14-15).
This seems new to you so I will have to sign off here.

Eternal life and Everlasting life are not the same. Unless one knows the difference they would not understand the importance of measuring up to the stature and fullness of Christ.(Eph. 4:13). Neither will they understand the significance of "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked"(1Jn2:6).

Have you ever wondered why Jesus said, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" Matt.5:19).

Obedience, reverence to God, good works, has absolutely nothing to do with eternal life, or salvation by having one's name written in the book of life and received the authority to become children of God, and eventually escaping the second death; but they have everything to do with attaining Everlasting life which is the immortality of the body. And it will be only those in the first resurrection who will receive immortality, the glorified body.

Lucius Joseph
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2005 08:36 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
[link to www.antichristconspiracy.com]
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/20/2005 08:58 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
God has determined his family from the foundation of the world and will cause them do these things.


People are not predestined. God can decide to look ahead to see the things we CHOOSE to do but God never makes us do anything. That would take away our free will. And taking away free will would mean Adam and Eve never had free will and God was responsible for what they did. And that is just not true. God is not evil and we are not robots that are programmed.
zacksavage

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12/20/2005 09:03 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
Not many sane posters in this thread.

Hm,...

Pity.




Z
Free your mind,...your ass will follow.

--- parliament funkadelic
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
Canada
12/20/2005 09:23 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Lucius Joseph:

Thankyou for taking the time to respond to my question.

In your response you say:

>>But the rest of the dead (including those who are saved by accepting Jesus as their Savior, but did not overcome the flesh, or obedient to His commandments) did not live again until the thousand years were finished<<.

Since I don't share that view, perhaps that is why I didn't understand you.

I most certainly think that I will be part of the first resurrection because I have overcome thanks to the work Jesus Christ did on the cross. His grace is sufficient for me and I know that if it's left up to me (on my own) I will never overcome the flesh.

I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.

Anyways thanks again for sharing your view.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
SHEEP

User ID: 53850
Canada
12/20/2005 09:32 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Beemerben:

I used the tribulation thing as a discussion point.

Someone used the Parable of the Sower to make their point. I used the same parable to make my point (a different point.)

I mentioned that it is ironic that two people could use the same scripture to make different points (like the insane Christmas controversy)

Someone posted that a passage about idols in Ezekiel 14 explained how this happens but I didn't see how.

And that is why I brought up the 7 year vs. 3 1/2 year. Only to see how the original poster was using Ezekiel 14.

So in fact I was not taking a stance on the length of the tribulation. I have my views but perhaps that's another thread.

Peace in Jesus.
Where the eagle glides ascending
There's an ancient river bending
Down the timeless gorge of changes
Where sleeplessness awaits.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
Canada
12/20/2005 11:26 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
What I am saying is not the popular teaching, but this is my point;
*************************************

Lucius Joseph

Your post is not realistic at all and is not scriptural, And those Scriptures your are trying to pass off as prooving your remarks are twisted way out of context in to an outright lie. Your teaching is not from God, and I'm not even going to waste my time prooving how deep in darkness your theoly is. But I will leave you with one Scripture for truth and hopefully those who may be considering putting any belief into what you have claimed will see the difference in Truth of Scripture and the error of your posts.

1 John 5:4-6
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
SHEEP
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12/20/2005 11:49 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
5392:

So has this thread run it's course. Or do they just keep going?

I am mindful that the issue of "lost salvation" came up in a different thread and I suggested it would make a good topic. Little did I realize the hornets nest therein.

You a pre-tribber or is that someting to avoid.

peace
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 5392
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12/20/2005 11:57 PM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
You a pre-tribber or is that someting to avoid.

************************************

I lean towards pre, but the way I see it I'm already seated with Christ so the tribulation is not somehing that I concern myself with. Jesus said we will have tribulation and trials in the world, If it is His will for me then I trust Him enough that it is not an issue for me to worry about. I will dig up a thread in the archives and post it here that you should take a look at. It has some interesting Scriptural references that you can pray about and see if they mean anything to you.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Canada
12/21/2005 12:00 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
here is the link for part one

[link to www.rockofoffence.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/21/2005 12:04 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
here is the link for part two

[link to www.rockofoffence.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2005 12:05 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
>>I will dig up a thread in the archives and post it here that you should take a look at.<<

Sure thing Friend. I love a good discussion. As long as we don't lose sight of the Author and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus Christ, cause I think that's why we are here.

Good night from Alberta.
Person1
User ID: 9187
United States
12/21/2005 12:19 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
"People are not predestined. God can decide to look ahead to see the things we CHOOSE to do but God never makes us do anything. That would take away our free will. And taking away free will would mean Adam and Eve never had free will and God was responsible for what they did. And that is just not true. God is not evil and we are not robots that are programmed."

Everything you posted is based on your feelings and your opinion, and most likely information that you've been told, not that you've taken the time to learn, to put it bluntly.

Your words contradict the very words of the bible, and if you actually read your bible you might actually see this. Although, if you do not have ears to hear and eyes to see, there's no possible way that you can.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/21/2005 12:33 AM
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Little did I realize the hornets nest therein.

***************************************

Its all good, different views, open up different Scriptures that may be needed to be heard by many sitting and reading but not responding.
beemerben
User ID: 54593
United States
12/21/2005 02:56 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To Sheep:

So in fact I was not taking a stance on the length of the tribulation. I have my views but perhaps that's another thread.


Or another day. That is if we have another day;)

I for one welcome the views from the other side. Thats not saying anything bad about my understanding or yours. And besides if were all on a quest for better understanding then so be it. I realize just how confusing it can be when two people read a text and get two entirely different things from it. I'm new to this site and so far have really enjoyed the banter. Most places you can't include bible topics like we do here and actually get people to respond with text to support their beliefs. If you have the time and the desire bring it on. Well you know what I mean;) Many people here do make statements they can actually back up with scripture. I'm glad I found this website.

Merry Exmas ( that shouldn't offend anybody I hope:)
NewSELFInChrist
GLP

User ID: 55518
United States
12/21/2005 03:40 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
To L C,

Well done You Are Correct Again.

You would apear to be one who is In The Flesh to Live the First Resurection.

Lets Hope there are Enough in the Know to Make it Happen.

as for MySelf it maters Not Either Way.

Like Been There Done That wats Knew.

I Have Personaly Meet a Few who have come To Walk With me for The Establishment of The KINGDOME.

Just so you know:

I was Split 4 ways like when a circle is sectored with a Cross and rehomeginized UniPolar, My bone density is like 30% Higher then Normal and I Have what is called a Genetic Predisposition- To Say the Least I Am Different, My Brain does not Work like Most Peoples.

I Also Know I am Living Lightning InCased in Flesh.

in the Bible I am Depickded as the Lightning above the Throne Of GOD(and Yes I am a Sovern Elohim Life Force,SELF).

Yes Believe it or Knot I am Here in the Land of the Living.

Shall we Walk for a Thousand years or not.

Who wants to walk with the one GOD Sent for the Job at Hand.

for those Who Insist that Jesus is God, Better get a clue He Is The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of GOD NOT GOD HIMSELF.

And Not the Only Son Either, There are Many Sons of GOD.

James.
bike
Bottom Line Take it or Leave it.
That's Life.
Thumper
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12/21/2005 06:13 AM
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the Bumper
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/21/2005 08:18 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
for those Who Insist that Jesus is God, Better get a clue He Is The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of GOD NOT GOD HIMSELF.
*************************************

Sorry you can't see James, perhaps the lightning is blinding your vision.

There are people who are decieved, and there are those who are way out there.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2005 09:16 AM
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Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??
I appreciate this topic because it is one that touches upon and is interconnected with many of the most profound truths regarding salvation. In fact, it being such a profound and far-reaching topic is one of the reasons I hesitate to get involved because to really delve into it fairly requires much more than short comments. The debate goes back nearly 2000 years. Entire books are devoted to this subject. There are entire websites devoted to it -- with many good presentations pro and con. I like to read studies and essays where both sides, or many sides, of an issue are presented in one format -- for example I have such books on the rapture, or the various views of the millenium, etc. -- where several authors give point/counterpoint presentations.

There is no doubt that many scriptures can be quoted (often out of context) in the eternal security discussion that support both sides of the issue. I have dealt with the topic enough myself that I can (or at least think I can) give reasonable answers and explanations to the "salvation can be lost" proponents -- but again, the discussion eventually includes many related issues. To me the truth about the matter is very simple, but can "seem" to get very complicated. In some ways it is almost a paradox, and when discussing salvation there can be a tension between present reality and future reality, but that comes from taking a human perspective instead of God's perspective.

I just can't resist posting the comments of another on this topic:

-------------------------------------------------------------​------------------------------------

What is SALVATION? That is the real question!
That is really the ONLY question.
It is because that question is not answered first, that we get so many answers to the question of can it be lost. Using any of the common and erroneous definitions of Salvation, of course it is possible to lose such a salvation.

In my opinion, we have not defined salvation until we understand

How does God define it?
What is covenant and what does it have to do with the new birth
What and Who causes the the new birth to take place?
Who defines and secures the covenant
Who is responsible for "making it happen"
On what basis is it given
On what basis is it secured?
Who is responsible for keeping it
What responsibility does God take for enabling the new man to keep it?

There are probably more

A discussion of what salvation is NOT, would also be good. i.e. Not a walk down the aisle, not mouthing the words of a prayer, not just an experience, etc.

It is bad assumptions and lazy studying that give rise to so many conclusions.

Only once those basic questions are answered should we begin to discuss whether one can lose their salvation, IMO ... I think this topic is crucial to a healthy Christian walk and I do think it is resolvable.

-------------------------------------------------------------​-----------------------------------

End quote.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed -- just saying that to give it justice requires dealing with an entire "paradigm," -- and issues of what is salvation and how is it accomplished, who is Jesus Christ and what was His work, issues regarding judgment and "hell," issues regarding biblical interpretation, issues regarding God's overall "plan" and how it has been revealed, etc. etc.





GLP