Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

The answer to this question is a resounding YES. Do not pay attention to what people say, but pay attention to what the Bible says. That is all that counts.

A Christian can no more lose his salvation than Jesus Christ can be dismembered, or His work on the cross unraveled. Your salvation is based upon your identity in and through Christ only -- one with Him in a union which cannot be revoked: "for God's gifts and his call are IRREVOCABLE" (Rom. 11:29). The foundation of your salvation is what HE did. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of your certain destiny, and by it you are SEALED permanently in Christ:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Cor. 1:22)"

And Ephesians 1:14:
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession ..."

Ephesians 4:30:
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

1 Thess. 5:23:
"May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The One who calls you is faithful and HE WILL DO IT."

John 10:27-29:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

If you have been given eternal life, you will never perish, said Jesus, and no man (including yourself) can pluck you out of the Father's hand. Even if you have NO fruit and all your works are "burned up" in judgment, you yourself will still be saved -- 1 Cor. 3:15.

So you see, 19.47, I don't listen to ignorant men who tell me I can lose what Christ has already accomplished for me -- I do indeed listen to the scripture and the voice of the Holy Spirit. I could reference numerous other passages as well ... and I'm sure you can cite all the passages that ones who don't understand their identity and destiny in Christ commonly use to try and perpetuate the Satanic lie that Christ's Work was insufficient and it depends on the strength of man.

But they can give that free gift back or refuse to take it in the first place. And if they don't live their life in harmony with Bible standards then that gift will be null and void for them.



Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that **doeth the will** of my Father which is in heaven.


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

ac55619 said:

"But they can give that free gift back?"

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"My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27:28) That should answer the question.

And regarding the other verses you referenced in the book of Matthew: Christ himself said He NEVER KNEW THEM -- they were never regenerated, never born from above, never received the Spirit. They can't lose what they never had! It is indeed possible to give lip service ... "lord, lord" ... it is indeed possible to do things in His name and perform counterfeit miracles and engage the demons ... it is indeed possible to perform various good works out of the "good" side of the natural man or old nature -- and yet never have been begotten of the Father! Those people never really "heard His voice" -- even though outwardly some of the signs were counterfeited and mimicked.

As for "doing the will" of the Father. His will is that we obey the law of faith::

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by THE LAW OF FAITH." (Romans 3:27)

His will is that we "obey the TRUTH." (Romans 2:8; Galations 3:1 and 5:7)

His will is that we "obey the GOSPEL." (Romans 10:16)

He wants us to obey His commandments. And what are those commandments?

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:22-23)

And as an aside ... can somebody point out to me where in the 10 Commandments are mentioned these commands: the law of faith, obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to believe on the name of Jesus Christ??

Proverbs 16
25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.


Any thoughts on what this way that seems right to man but ends in death may be???

>>So you see, 19.47, I don't listen to ignorant men who tell me I can lose what Christ has already accomplished for me -- I do indeed listen to the scripture and the voice of the Holy Spirit. I could reference numerous other passages as well ... and I'm sure you can cite all the passages that ones who don't understand their identity and destiny in Christ commonly use to try and perpetuate the Satanic lie that Christ's Work was insufficient and it depends on the strength of man.<<

47217:

Welcome.

I clipped your comment out because I want to be clear on something. I can see that a battle rages on these pages over whether or not Christ's work on the cross is sufficient or do we need works.

If you have seen anything I posted here I trust that you see that I am a brother in Christ and have a different spin on the issue (more based on faith , than works). However, for now, I just want to clarify if you think that *anyone* who believes that salvation can be lost is "ignorant" and "perpetuating Satan's lies" because there is no doubt in MY heart that "by grace, you are saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God."

Please do respond.

Z

To 5392:

Thankyou for those links. I haven't checked them yet because I got caught up in this discussion again.

>>Not many sane posters in this thread.<<

Z:

Who's to say what's normal?

How do we measure sanity? Your version or mine?

Thankyou for those links. I haven't checked them yet because I got caught up in this discussion again.
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Sheep
No problem, It may take awhile to read through the article, It took me a couple hours to look up the Scripture references given and meditate on them. It is not merely about the study on the resurrection but also an indepth study on grace, which is my favorite topic to discuss anyway, so I enjoyed the article's clarity on many issues that are controversial to the world.

I think 47217 made that comment to the ones who parrot the same things over and over even after they have been shown from God's Scripture's differently. Some people are under law and not grace, so they will slant every Scripture towards the legalistic side and ignore the ones that contradict their theology. These people refuse to hear from God's Word and therefore Ezekial 14 is specifically for them. We either surrender to God and His Word or we are in rebellion.

And this is the verse I shared from Proverbs regarding those who think there way is right but it is in the end, death.

Sheep said,

"However, for now, I just want to clarify if you think that *anyone* who believes that salvation can be lost is "ignorant" and "perpetuating Satan's lies" because there is no doubt in MY heart that "by grace, you are saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God." Please do respond."

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No, of course not! That's why I said in my post that is at the top of this page of the thread that I recommend studying this issue from both sides. I recognize there can be legitimate differences of opinion on this matter. We grow in grace and knowledge. From my perspective, many genuine regenerated Christians do not fully comprehend their status, identity, and destiny in Christ -- and that includes me. God is infinite and we forever grow into the fullness of His truth and love. My answer may have seemed harsh because I was responding specifically to someone I have had exchanges with before ... well, I'll comment no further on that.

But I do not retract my statement that the teaching that a Christian can lose his salvation is a false and satanic doctrine. It springs from not comprehending what Christ accomplished and what has been imputed and imparted to us by virtue of being brought into union with Him. Salvation is not a covenant in the sense that "if you do this, God will do that." The gospel truth is a unilateral PROMISE from God.


But I certainly do NOT think that most ones who have not yet recognized this truth are satanic, or not Christian! The epistles are full of examples of believers being at all different stages of growth and insight -- from babes to more mature. I'm not setting myself up as some kind of mature teacher. I am witnessing what I believe to be truth and has been confirmed in me by the Spirit..

I do have a knack or gift for discerning various attitudes and spirits. You exhibit the Spirit of God. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Proverbs 16:25
"There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."

Any thoughts on what this way that seems right to man but ends in death may be???

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The way that seems right to the natural mind and to most all "religion" is that a man somehow "climbs" his way to God -- by merit, by effort, by striving, by intention ... it is said he thus approaches attaining or actualizing some of the divine nature. For example, via reincarnation we slowly over aeons of time "grow" and "learn our lessons" and expand. Or we gradually remove the barriers that hide our inner divine nature and prevent its manifestation. Or, in some religious thought, we earn God's favor by attempting to think and act righteously, so that He won't consign us to an eternal inferno of horrendous and unimaginable suffering, screaming, and wailing.

Christianity is different. Some religions and philosophies include references to grace -- but Christianity is based entirely on grace and vicarious righteousness. Not that the Christian never exhits actual righteousnesss in thought and deed -- he does -- but it is not based on his individuality, but rather upon a mystical UNION with God via Christ whereby a metamorphasis occurs in his inner being and divine energy flows through him. Something dies and a new nature is implanted in him that was absent before. Most religion is about "reformation." But Christianity is about dying ... and receiving by grace. It is a "corporate" philosophy (if I may call it that) -- being supernaturally incorporated into a divine Body. And that is more than metaphor. A Christian "channels" God and the divine nature through Christ -- not "himself" in any sense.

So the way that seems right to a man is is that man expands and grows or perhaps "changes" to approach and meet God. Reality is that God does it all -- God reaches out to and embraces man. God has given man free will within perameters, yet somehow God's will is implemented while paradoxically allowing man's will. It's like the paradoxes in quantum physics ... two apparently contradictory or separate phenomena can coexist simultaneously.

In nutshell: what seems natural and right to a man is selfhood, self-effort, merit, working, reward, and self responsibility. But divine truth involves denial and death of self, and becoming a receptacle for divine energy and power. In the realm of spiritual truth, what seems right is hard work ... God's way is resting and relaxing in divine provision and enablement -- being a part and member of Christ's body -- yet still an individual entity, though identified intimately with the Head (Christ). Just as cells, tissues, and organs in a biological organism retain some unique individuality, their purpose is to channel and process the over-riding energy of the Body towards the ultimate function and good of the entire body.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

47217:

No offence taken. More than anything I wanted to see where you are coming from. I know who my Shepherd is so when someone calls me anything other than a new creation in Christ I don't take them seriously.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. And if I sin I have an advocate, Christ.

The legalists scream that we must subject our flesh, obey the Law or we are damned or lost. A recurring theme I've heard is that I think I can do what I want because I believe Christ covers my sins.

For the sake of discussion, if my sins are covered, then why not do what I want? I will be saved anyway.

Trusting that you see this is a dicussion point and not a statement of faith.

Sheep,
Well it's getting late here and I'm tired, but as a partial response to your question above I will just repost what I put on another thread a short time ago:

------------------------------------------

"Explain protestant theology, please ...
Why is it that protestants make a point of differentiating themselves from catholics by saying people are "saved" by faith not works, or not a combination of faith and works?"

-------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------

Here's the short answer:

Romans 3:21ff:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe ...

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. ... Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

And exactly HOW does faith uphold the Law? Paul goes on to explain in the next chapter by quoting from the Law ... quoting from the book of Genesis. And how is the book of Genesis described as "the Law"? The broad definition of the Law is the Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Old Testament. The Old Testament was divided into the sections of "the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms" by Christ Himself. So Paul goes on to show how the Law upholds the law of faith in chapter 4:

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS ... For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless ...

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, SO THAT IT MAY BE BY GRACE and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."

Chapter 6:
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? ... For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been FREED from sin ...

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires ... What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! ... But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to righteousness."

That is Protestant theology in a nutshell. It is all of faith, because by faith comes regeneration -- i.e., being begotten of the Father and receiving a new nature and the Holy Spirit. And this "new man" does not live by law and outer legal mandates -- he lives by the power of Christ in him via the Spirit. He looks not to any law, but Christ. He yields to the living inner reality of Christ and fruit is evidenced spontaneously as a result of who he is in Christ. He is not trying to "reform" or salvage the "old man" or "the old sin nature" via law principle -- rather, by grace and faith Christ lives His life through Him.

If you don't understand these things then it isn't really Christianity you are talking about. Christianity isn't about merit based works -- it is about faith and the new nature that is intrinsically inclined toward God. The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers this new nature, with the cooperation of the believer. Christianity is about the legal and actual imputation or reckoning of Christ's righteousness to the believer -- the believer then "steps into" this reality via the power of faith!

The believer is one with Christ and shares Christ's inheritance. He is reckoned as being "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 2:6) ... not a worm of the dust "striving" to attain and maintain God's favor. When the Father sees the believer, He sees Christ. By grace are you saved through faith. Receive Christ and accept your glorious status and destiny IN HIM -- not in your humanly motivated strivings and reasonings of the natural mind. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:14)

For the sake of discussion, if my sins are covered, then why not do what I want? I will be saved anyway
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The truth to whole issue is, you are now a slave to righteousness. The Holy Trinity indwells and rules your spirit, leading you into righteousness, or you would be out there indulging in the flesh's desires. Maybe the ilusion of sin has its moments tempting you, but in your heart of heart you only seek what is honorable and good. I often get tempted to sin, but when it comes right down to it sin has no power over me to take control. yet I fall into sin almost daily in thought, word and deed.

So in answer to your question, what you want is righteousness, so in fact you are doing what you want.
This verse sums it all up...

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Sheep,
In the way of a short response to your question "For the sake of discussion, if my sins are covered, then why not do what I want? I will be saved anyway."

A regenerated person desires to do the will of God. Even in Paul's struggle described in Romans 7 -- he wanted to exhibit rightousness even if he found himself doing otherwise. Of course he presents the solution in chapter 8.

God is fully able to look after His children. If one is going astray He will discipline in love and wisdom according to what is necessary.

It's all about being "born from above" -- begotten of the Father. The new nature is disposed and inclined to Christ and righteousness, and does not have the attitude of wanting to "get away" with something and sin. The book of Romans is a masterpeice -- it's all in there.

So then I seek to do righteousness because this is my new nature. And my faith is reckoned on me as righteousness. In Christ I am righteous.

But what if I decide to pick up the ball and run with it a while? I believe the term is "backslide". Are there no consequences?

47217

Thanks for your response at 10:43 to the Proverb.
I see this verse in Proverbs as going hand in hand with this verse...

Isaiah 55:8
“ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD

But what if I decide to pick up the ball and run with it a while? I believe the term is "backslide". Are there no consequences?
*************************************

Yes there are consequences, but not the consequence of seperating you from your Ambassadorship as a child of God

"backslide" is an Old Testament term and is not mentioned in the New testament.

SALAVATION IS FALSE



SORRY TO BRING THIS UP AT X_MAS TIME



RELIGON IS A CONCEPT DESIGNED TO ENSLAVE THE POPULATION



I HAVE NO MOTIVE TO KID YOU HERE



ACTUALLY SATAN CONTROLS RELIGON LIKE NUCLEAR MATERIAL CONTROL ATOMIC BOMBS



BESIDES SATAN IS FAR TOO BUSY TO CARE ABOUT HUMANS



HES" FAR TOO BUSY DOWn HERE IN HELL MAKING OIL FOR YOU F'N SUVs



IT"S REAL HARD WORK CONVERTING WASTE IN TO HYDROCARBONS!



IT WOUILD BE A LOT EASIER IF YOU HUMANS WOULD JUST START WWW3 ALREADY



BESIDES EARTH NEED A FEW MAJOR RENOvATIONS



AN I'VE GOT JUST THE RIGHT PLAN



Let's just swallow some purple pills and have an orgy



EVERYONES INVITED

Wow 5392:

Just when I thought we were the only ones here we get a surprise visitor!

satan

You're just jealous because your pride's been dethroned. After all us beings of dust now have the annointing in a better way than you had, and you were made of the precious stones. Just goes to show you that it isn't what you're made of but what the Lord blesses with that is glorious.

Sheep,
The consequences are diminished fellowship with God in practical everyday life. The consequences are reaping what is sown. The consequences are correction and chastisement. The consequences may be ultimate loss of rewards (as distinguished from bottom-line salvation). But not loss of salvation! 1 Corinthians chapter 3 -- the one with a failing grade in growth with no real works or fruit is still saved -- "though as by fire."

If you don't stop asking questions, how can I get any sleep?? :-) And it seems to me you already know the answers ... but seriously, if you want to discuss I will stay on this thread in the days ahead (though tommorrow is busy for me.) I love to discuss these things.

Satan, Old Scratch ...
Please read my post at 10:34 pm above. Christianity is not "religion"! Oh well, you always did like to mix some truth with your subtle lies.

42717:

I'll let you go. I am asking questions hoping that others take an interest and join in and Christians can fellowship and others can hear the good news. And share their views.

Didn't expect Satan to drop in.

He should know that I ate lots of purple pills back in the day and came to see that they weren't the answer (for me anyways).

Signing off

I think it was C.S Lewis who wrote "The Screwtape Letters" -- conversations with Beelzebub.

And Not the Only Son Either, There are Many Sons of GOD.

James.
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true James there are many sons of God, however Jesus is the only begotton of the Father by nature and in a different sense than mankind is adopted sons through the Holy Spirit. Christ is God's Son by nature and Jesus referred to His father as God because He humbled Himself to become a man, and one of the proper duties of man is to honor and worship God. Jesus did not relate to the Father this way UNTIL He "emptied Himself" and became man, as it states in Philippians 2

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Jesus clarified this and was careful to distinguish the difference to His disciples when He spoke of the Father as He always addressed the Father as either "the Father" or "My Father" but never "our Father" as He spoke after His resurrection in John 20

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Jesus did not say " I am ascending to our Father and our God

The only time Jesus ever referred to the Father as "Our Father" was in the so-called "Lord's prayer when He was instructed the disciples how they should corporately address God in prayer.

because Jesus is different from mankind in relation to Sonship by nature and not by adoption, Jesus is truly God, and because He is also a man by nature, He can call the Father "My God"

Lets look at it deeper...In what way did Christ make Himself nothing" when He became incarnate (Philippians 2:7) Paul's statement that Christ made Himself nothing in the incarnation involves 3 basic issues:
1 ) The veiling of His pre-incarnate glory.
2) A voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some occasions)
3) The condescension involved in taking on the likeness of men.

First we can be sure Jesus never gave up His deity when He became incarnate. That is impossible God cannot cease to be God. Regarding the veiling of Christ's pre-incarnate glory, Scripture indicates that it was necessary for Him to give up the outer appearance of God in order to take upon Himself the form of man. Christ never actually surrendered His divine glory. Recall that on the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus allowed His intrinsic glory to shine forth for a brief time, illuminating the whole mountainside. Nevertheless it was necessary for Jesus to veil His pre-incarnate glory in order to dwell among mortal men.

Had Christ not veiled Hid pre-incarnate glory man would not have been able to behold Him. It would have been the same as when the apostle John, over fifty years after Christ's resurrection, beheld Christ in His glory and said, "I fell at His feet as though dead" or as Isaiah beheld the glory of Christ in his vision in the temple and said "Woe to me I am ruined"

Second when Christ made Himself nothing in the incarnation, He submitted to a voluntary nonuse of some of His divine attributes.(on some occasions)in order to accomplish objectives. Christ could never have actually surrendered any of His attributes, for then He would have had to cease being God. But He could and did voluntarily cease using some of them (on occasion) during His time on earth, in order to live among men and their limitations.

Though Christ sometimes chose not to us His Divine attributes, at other times He did use them. On different occasions Jesus exercised omniscience (all-knowingness)-John 2:24; 16:30...omnipresence (being everywhere present)-John 1:48 and omnipotence (being all powerful, as evidenced by His many miracles)-John 11.
However whatever limitations Jesus may have suffered when He "made Himself nothing"(Philippians 2:7), He did not subtract a single divine attribute or in any sense make Himself less than God.

The question arises at this point, WHY did Jesus choose on occasion to use them? it would seem that He did so to remain consistent with His purpose of living among human beings and their limitations. he does not seem to have used His divine attributes on His own behalf, though they were gloriously displayed in His miracles for others.

Jesus suffered all the inconvienences of His day even though in His divine nature of omniscience He had full knowledge of every human device ever conceived for human comfort.

Nor did Christ use His omnipotence or omnipresence to make His life easier on earth. Though He could have He traveled by foot like every human, and experienced fatigue in the process. He chose not to use His powers to lift Himself above ordinary human limitations.

THIRD, when Christ made Himself nothing in the incarnation He condescended Himself by taking on the likeness of men (appearance) and taking on the nature of a bondservant. Christ was in this way truly human. This humanity was subject to temptation, distress, weakness, pain, sorrow, and limitation. Yet at the same time the word 'likeness' suggests 'similarity but difference' Though His humanity was genuine < He was different in the fact that He was sinless. Nevertheless, Christ taking on the likeness of men represented a great condescending on the part of the second person of the trinity.

The incarnation involved a gaining of human attributes and not a giving up of divine attributes. The apostle Paul made this clear when he affirmed that in the incarnation Christ was "taking the very nature of a servant" ,"being in human likeness" and "being found in appearance of a man"
The incarnation of Christ involved not the subtraction of deity but the addition of humanity.

so in order to dwell among humans, Christ made Himself nothing in the sense that He veiled His pre-incarnate glory, He submitted to a voluntary nonuse(without surrendering) of some of His dive attributes, and He condescended Himself by taking on human nature. All this adds great significance to the statement Jesus made..."the Father is greater than I"(John 14:28) Clearly , Jesus was making this statement from the vantage point of His human incarnation