Why systems based on equality will never work

It's not hard in your dream world - in the real world people make money by abusing other people, creating unfair advantages, creating opportunities which destroy the wealth of others, etc etc. The entire US government is an enabler for criminals - who pass laws that hurt the super majority of Americans while benefiting the top - globalism is a prime example. Another are the imperialist wars we fight - making some people enormous wealth while creating a deficit and pain for the rest of Americans. There's no "hard work" in any of these wealth creating schemes.

Please tell me you are joking.

Seriously.
Thats why 90% of politicians or anyone in power is part of secret organizations.



And those that work hard and make it to positions of power without a "license", they are worked against by TPTP until they fall...


LETS GET REAL, AND OUT OF FANTASY LAND.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 10/21/2012 08:57 PM

Well I haven't at any point defended the current system, I'd agree it's corrupt to the core, and so would Rand as she understood how in the name of altruism and equality the system hinders productivity and at the same time it asserts itself as the source of all benefits for the unproductive classes which seek to live off the work of others. In this manner the system creates a vicious cycle in which it creates dependence to then fulfill the needs of the dependent in order to perpetuate its rule.

Well I have never said that the current system is ideal so I don't know why you're arguing as if I had said such thing.

In principle that's the way wealth is honestly earned is it not? If what happens right now isn't that, then it's a clear sign that money nowadays is not being honestly earned. I agree and I would like to see that fixed, however the way to fix that is not to argue that we're all equal and deserve to have our needs met by anyone other than ourselves, and that we should be allowed to fail if we make the wrong choices in life.

Throwin grandma under the bus?

you'd certainly break a sweat doin' that!


If she struggles ya might have to bonk her over the head with a metal object..

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 10/21/2012 09:01 PM

I understand that, and I also understand that you are jaded. So am I.

But the only thing that is going to defeat TPTB is reasoned and rational arguments in a public debate forum. When we see the pundits on TV discussing this or that talking point that was made by a politician, that is what they're trying to do, either reinforce or break down existing systems of power.

Only pure reason has the ability to counter the arguments that are advanced by those who would oppress based on misleading logic. Sit-in's don't work, as we have seen, you'll just end up getting pepper sprayed and tazed.

I aim for a time where no one will be thrown under the bus. But I understand that the only way to arrive to such place is to philosophically understand that people need to recognize values by experiencing the consequences of their actions.

Humanity has progressed to this point of development because we went through many tribulations and we learned from them. At the individual level it works just the same. If individuals aren't allowed to be responsible for themselves they will never learn the values needed to develop themselves to the necessary level of consciousness to create the ideal society we all strive for. The society where no one is thrown under the bus.

When you wish to save everyone at the cost of the necessary condition for the real development of those values, you set your path so that eventually your system collapses and everyone ends up under the bus.

Artificial equality foments mediocrity, mediocrity is the precursor to decay.

I'm ok with 'good faith'; but now we have a system composed entirely of elitist exploitation..

just as long as you dont say the law is justice, because it is not.

good faith is what it is all about.

unfortunately, the only good faith is bottom-up.... the politicians exploit our good faith; and the system is only representative to corporate/union donors; who are entirely self interest lobbies. Therefore, the legal system is illegitimate; justice is not blind, it is biased at the core to those who bribe he politicians into making self serving laws.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 10/21/2012 09:59 PM

Here are a few systems based upon inequality:

slavery
tyranny
imperialism
genocide

Looks like inequality rules, literally.

Virtually none of the present economic systems of the world are based upon any sort of equality: they are based upon monopoly control of money by bankers that are privileged to control the only form of money that is sanctioned by the government.

The equality of freedom for all people is humankind's best hope. Only through monetary freedom can we have true economic freedom, until then the monopolists of money will be cheating and ripping off the rest of us suckers that work for a living while telling us that equality doesn't work (when the real thing that doesn't work is parasitic usurious bankers).

OP's message debunks a claim it setup that humans should be forced to be totally equal at the individual level. Yet very few people actually argue that humans should be absolutely equal at the individual level. That was not what was meant by "all men are created equal..." in The Declaration of Independence of the United States, because what most people argue for is a system of equal rights (rights such as life and liberty).

OP appears to be possibly arguing against equality in general just because of the fact that all individuals are not equal in talent. It is like saying that better basketball players should be allowed to travel, commit fouls without being called for them, and be rewarded twice as many points for scoring a basket because it would be stupid to hold them equal to lesser/inferior players. Obviously, no two athletes are equal in talents, but to not treat them equally would ruin the sport (I use sports as an example because they are one of the few systems in our society where people are actually treated equally)

I may earn more or less money than other people, but I still believe we are all equal in rights. Examine most of the injustice in the world and through history (tyranny, slavery, genocide), and at its root you will usually find people claiming to be superior and unequal to those they oppress.

Forcing people to be completely and absolutely equal on every individual level will not work, but neither will using individual inequality of talent to justify rejecting equality in terms of human rights.


Just offering a counterpoint that equality can be a good thing, especially from the perspective of human rights.



Also a personal note: our present systems are so messy that it is possible for a decent, motivated, hard-working, honest person to be laid off, not be able to find another job, and wind up in the street through little fault of their own (hardly what I would consider duly-deserved poverty) and in a situation that is very difficult to escape. I found myself almost in this situation and was able to get out of it with no help from the government (but from a very caring family that I have since repaid kindly, so don't accuse me of being any sort of leech), but it has changed me to the point where I would never ever bring a child into this world, even though I now have a steady job with decent pay and benefits. I simply will not bring a child into a world where shit like that can happen and then a majority of society that doesn't even know you prejudges you as a worthless inferior leech that should be left to starve. One of the things that got me through being unemployed for over a year and being rejected from over 500 jobs was my belief in equality, now I have a job that is better in almost every way than most of the jobs I was rejected from.

I guess that what I am saying is that things just aren't as simple as they should be or as we all would like them to be. OP's argument was fine but there is always more to the picture than meets the eye, and I am not trying to create a straw man argument against the OP or put words in the OP's mouth to say that the OP is against equal human rights, just offering some perspective and adding to the conversation.

Peace out.

I know: tl;dr

You make a good point - not only do they toss grandma under the bus for wealth that is unjustifiable (wealth beyond what anyone needs) but they are never held accountable because they own the government. When Banks made bad loans and huge profits that made their management and shareholders wealth - the government bailed them out and none of them were accountable. This is the USA today.

Yes the legislate themselves wealth and make otherwise criminal actions in to laws that permit them. Deregulating finance is one way they did this. They also deregulated the mortgage industry. All of which hurt the super majority of Americans

Again my point is not against an equal playing field, we all should strive towards that, but against the idea that everyone is equal and thus deserves the same benefits no matter what they do.

For example if you argue we are all equal, then when an individual, a group of people or a nation fails we are to presuppose that this is because someone is exploiting them. In many cases this can be true, but in most cases the fact is that the failure is due to inefficiency. So anyone arguing that somehow society or a global political organism should make sure everyone is pushed up to the same level regardless of each particular instance, just because we're all equal and we all deserve to be at the same level, is fallacious and will lead to dependency and complacency, which in turn will lead to economic stagnation and societal decay.

The objective is equality, the means to it is an equal playing field, the necessary sacrifice is letting people, business and everything else fail if they so deserve it.

OF course the inequalities and flaws of the current system need to be corrected, but I am afraid many people are trying to use the wrong methods to do this.

Right now our current system bails out the failures at the bottom and at the top, none of this should be happening.

name some "bottom" failures that are being bailed out. And tell me how bailing out the bottom is the same as permitting people at the top (who don't need more money) to steal money and then skate?

The poor shouldn't be helped by tax money based programs. Now I do understand that sounds harsh because right now many people are poor because our system is also rigged in favor of the rich. But the fact remains that to fix the whole situation we need to stop bailing out ALL OF THEM. Maybe in a scenario looking towards an actual solution (and not merely philosophical hypothesis as I intended in the OP) the top should be left to fail abruptly and the poor should gradually be taken out of programs as the system recomposes itself due to corruption at the high spheres being ended.

When the equal playing field is attained, you allow individual freedom and free markets to operate and you let both individuals and business FAIL. That's the only way in my opinion towards true equality, prosperity and progress. But until that is attained people need to understand those who make the wrong choices need to be allowed to fall, even if it breaks your heart, it's required for their/our own development.

>Why systems based on equality will never work

it worked in the past or we would not be here

can one person propogate the race?

we have existed as groups that shared

at the end of the day this is all we have

sharing is why we are here

we did not get to zero in 100,000 years

we could have

remember this

Basically my point is that attaining the equal playing field does not mean attaining equality, equality is attained after society develops for some time ON an equal playing field and people consciously understand and assimilate the necessary values to be at an equal desirable level which affords them deservingly the benefits they desire.

When we talk about natural distribution of talents, and rewarding people based on talent and performance.. well the ability to make money is a talent just like any other talent. Some are good with numbers and considerations of investments, some are not so good with that but are good at other things.

It's not for a lack of natural talent distribution that we find those who are good at making money are rewarded at a much greater proportion than those who are good at other things. If you happen to be good at churning numbers and investments, that is the topmost rewarded talent in our system today.

The current system of rewards and benefits really has not so much to do with inborn talents or merits as it does the system of valuation that we have at play. It's a rigged game.

My intention here is not to analyze our current situation but to dismantle all the philosophies that seek to find a solution to our situation by arguing that we need wealth distribution and socialized programs that make sure everyone has their basic needs covered based on the premise that we're all equal and that we're all entitled to equal benefits in life just because we're alive.

Many people get caught up in these philosophies because they seem noble and helpful to the poor, but in fact my argument is that these policies actually create an environment in which people become complacent and dependent and thus it creates stagnation and sets itself on a path of self destruction eventually, actually eradicating all possibility of attaining an ideal society where every individual is equally deserving of a high standard of living.

And not only that, but that these policies actually are flawed because not everyone really deserves to have their basic needs covered just because being alive, nor does this path of action create any long term benefits.

Notice, what do you deem successful?

What do we have different? Updates of machines? As a human race, we are no different than the same humans since the beginning, only our "tools," have changed.

The basic fundamentals of everything are the same.

The function of these newer tools are the same. The only difference now is we can make "faster," effects of things here. We have buildings, jobs, vehicles, and so forth, but a car is a car, a restaurant is a restaurant, etc...The basic overall function remains constant. These beliefs that we have evolved due to these products create a pyramid system for us to believe that we must prove our names to a world that we think is paying attention. No one's paying attention, we become too focused on the ego chase instead of pondering the simple things and simple facts.

We've always had everything that we've ever needed, complete from the start. It's only an illusion we've ever thought we needed more.

Our perception of reality is the only difference among any of us. To that, we should celebrate, for that is an amazing thing.

The only thing that doesn't have any flaws is unconditional love. With it, you accept everyone for who they are regardless if it's not how you see things. When you start seeing that, you realize that they are like you. Everyone works on the same level. With enough resources to fairly be around and no one trying to better than another, would there be a need for any person deeming they are successful or higher than that person?

Then, the comical side of things would arrive, realizing that indeed, we were kidding ourselves the entire time thinking that money, power, and a strong ego is the source of happiness.

The source of happiness flows from within of knowing who you are, and knowing who the rest of the world is.

When this arrives, the walls begin to tumble down, and the fear of being a pushed aside civilian reaching for the top just to prove his name goes out the door.

It's time to see that you have nothing to prove to anyone but yourself, as you are the only one really paying attention.

The quality of life for any creation should be set to an equal balance that benefits all, because we are all together. We are all beautiful unique pieces of a larger picture than most could ever imagine.

Laugh and enjoy life. You're playing the characters, who do you choose to be?

You are always okay, always have been okay, always will be okay. If you have nothing to fear, then why not help your fellow human out that may be fearing?

There are two constants in human existence:

1- No one likes to work for another for no reward to themselves
2-Everybody likes to get what they want without doing any effort.

When you get down to those two constants and you couple them with the factor that producing the basic needs for subsistence takes a lot of effort, you end up with the dilemma that has been haunting us for ages.

The key here is to realize how we can tackle our dilemma taking into account ALL the factors, as to not end up creating another short term self-imploding system which bring us back to square one.

There are two constants in human existence:

1- No one likes to work for another for no reward to themselves
2-Everybody likes to get what they want without doing any effort.

When you get down to those two constants and you couple them with the factor that producing the basic needs for subsistence takes a lot of effort, you end up with the dilemma that has been haunting us for ages.

The key here is to realize how we can tackle our dilemma taking into account ALL the factors, as to not end up creating another short term self-imploding system which bring us back to square one.




But when they realize they already have whatever they want? When they realize all they really need is food, shelter, and very basic things? When they realize the rest of the stuff out there is gadgets only to distract and continue the market place as consumerists?

The key is learning to give without expecting, because you love someone just for existing. You do it out of respect for their being and the respect of your own.

Forget about gadgets, merely feeding 8 billion people takes a whole lot of effort, and couldn't even be attained without technology. I am all for people realizing that what matters most is within ourselves, but you have to be realistic and realize that progress and technology are a necessary part of the path towards greater prosperity and advancement, both internal and external, of humankind.

Should the guy who smokes pot and plays videogames all day be rewarded the same as the guy who studies all day and struggles to create a business?

Should the nation/society which overwhelmingly has great work ethics and social decency and responsibility be rewarded the same as those who overwhelmingly make no effort to develop civility and self control?

We're not equal and it's not always because of the "system's oppression", sometimes we dig our own graves by the choices we make, and egalitarian philosophies just wish to bury that factor from the equation and imply everyone should get the same benefits regardless of outcome. That's my point here, that this philosophy is inherently flawed and cannot bring any good results.

When wealth is distributed evenly and not only for the higher ups.

And yes to your questions, they should. They are a conscious being just as you are.

A reward system has always been in place for pet animals too, notice that? Dog does something wrong, he gets a penalty. Dog does something good, he gets a treat. See the similarities we're living under? The people can live in an equal system very easily, they just have to choose to.

How many people do you know working a hard life, having a large sum in the bank, just to disappear as they reach old age? It's a set to fail system for a working class that's trying so damn hard that they stay blinded.

Thus, they're left at an unfair advantage as well.

It's not about material rewards. It's about just being.

There's definitely enough resources on this planet to feed every single last person and continually. Why must someone work for food? I don't see a reason. I see it as a common courtesy to offer anyone that's hungry any bit of food I can. I don't care what they have or have not done, that's their story, it is not mine. I however do care that they are okay.

There's no better way to form a desirable character in people than to allow life to mete out the deserved consequence for each of their actions. When you arbitrarily define an artificial equality for everyone, regardless of the reality of each individual merit, and you reward people based on that premise, you are bailing out many who should have been allowed to fail.

Without failing when due, people never develop the desired values and character which are the only way in which a society and ultimately our world can get out of our pathetic state.

When wealth is distributed evenly and not only for the higher ups.

And yes to your questions, they should. They are a conscious being just as you are.

A reward system has always been in place for pet animals too, notice that? Dog does something wrong, he gets a penalty. Dog does something good, he gets a treat. See the similarities we're living under? The people can live in an equal system very easily, they just have to choose to.

How many people do you know working a hard life, having a large sum in the bank, just to disappear as they reach old age? It's a set to fail system for a working class that's trying so damn hard that they stay blinded.

Thus, they're left at an unfair advantage as well.

It's not about material rewards. It's about just being.

There's definitely enough resources on this planet to feed every single last person and continually. Why must someone work for food? I don't see a reason. I see it as a common courtesy to offer anyone that's hungry any bit of food I can. I don't care what they have or have not done, that's their story, it is not mine. I however do care that they are okay.