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EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35094424
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03/18/2013 09:37 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
...



Would they need to be grounded?

burnit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


No, it's not needed. Grounding can only protect against electrostatic field, and EMP is alternating electromagnetic field. Metal shield is protecting against EMP or high voltages. Once grounding wire is connected, it acts as an antenna collecting EMP.
Grounding is only used for installations that have equipment dependent on grounding like antennas, wired connections.

The most dangerous for grounding is E3 also called MHD-EMP. It causes currents in the ground that also travel through electric grid, pipes. It can cause discharges, sparks, can melt ground wire or cause fire.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Thank-You!

I was thinking that a grounding wire would act like a lightning rod so to speak!... but, there's so many conflicting opinions!

I was thinking about using a galvanized steel garbage can
lined with cardboard inside and wrapping the items in heavy duty tin foil in layers ... plastic wrap - tin foil - plastic wrap - tin foil, etc.

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


Galvanized steel garbage box should provide adequate protection. Wrapping it in thick foil is reducing EMP effects by a small fraction, so it won't hurt. Foil used alone can easily melt. That's how it looks in microwave. Similar effects with EMP would be within extremely short time periods and much higher power (if it happens, electronics is gone for sure).


[link to www.youtube.com]

Foil usually provides some protection against non EMP harmful signals. Most microchips are imported and it is a good question if they have undisclosed abilities to turn off permanently once some signal is received?
Layering it won't hurt, but it is not an extremely effective way.
A well sealed chemical resisting plastic bag is a must. This way you are protecting it from harmful chemicals and radiactive particles, it can be easily submerged into decontaminating aggressive chemical (like sodium hypochlorite also called bleach or other). Otherwise you are risking loosing your electronics or making dangerous to use. There are numerous chemical plants that after EMP would run out of control and cause problems of unimaginable proportions, not only for unprotected electronics.
I've witnessed one of the biggest chemical catastrophes which happened in Jonava 1989-03-20 when 7500tons of liquid ammonia were released from a collapsed tank. Witnesses tell that sewers in the vicinity reacted bubbling and popping all iron lids high into the air. Affected area was more than 50km reaching Ukmerge within few hours along the wind, and luckily wind direction changed pushing the cloud backwards towards Jonava and then Kedainiai (also 50km away). It could have been worse. Standard activated carbon gas mask was nearly useless against it. All wildlife was fleeing the zone some 40km away, including wild rats and mice which usually avoid running in the open.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.xxiamzius.lt]

Only specialized gas mask can help against this chemical. Once you know your surroundings and chemical plants, it's possible to "do the math". Blind possession of a standard filtration system or gas mask may only give false sense of security. Stockpiling of changeable specialized filters can be extremely important in some areas. It is another "Big topic". It can happen that it will fail and the only option will be to run away. You can't hope to outrun a cloud or wind without transport so there won't be much time to waste. Steel or container garage can be considered. Motorcycle kept in EMP protected box can be extremely useful (even bicycle may improve chances with lots of luck). When everything did settle down it may be possible to come back and there will be a task to decontaminate everything. Improper decontamination or failure to protect assets against contaminants can lead to a waste of valuable resources and health issues. Both of these hinder chances for survival.
A small steel (it's possible to test with magnet) metal box like the one from tea, candies or cookies can provide a good protection and they sometimes can protect against EMP on their own (thickness is the key and usual tin box wall thickness is 0.23mm). Using them as an additional protection in big container (like garbage box) would only improve survivability. This way, once place must be quickly abandoned, it's possible to take the most important items with you without compromising EMP protection.
 Quoting: EMPerror


So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...


Thanks Much! hf
Integrity101

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03/18/2013 09:49 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
What will be the effect on the human body? Or those with artificial hearts and so forth?
EMPerror  (OP)

User ID: 8804293
Lithuania
03/18/2013 04:12 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
EMPerror,
Do you have any info on the North Korean 'supposed' EMP nuke yield and it's resultant effect radius for the US. Seems like a concern with US agencies, with their moving anti-missile batteries that direction.
 Quoting: uscrusader1


The only one having full info is likely their leader. There are however some things that can be guessed by the knowledge of basic principles involved. One nuclear EMP explosion can cover whole USA if it explodes in the middle, and this is mentioned in numerous books. The difference is only strength of EMP and level of damage. Scale of damage vs EMP electromagnetic field strength is not available like with pressure or thermal damage due to constantly changing technologies which are constantly getting more susceptible.
Data is conflicting about yield and that is a strange part, but all point to a low yield which hints that neutron or some high gamma bomb is being tested. Exactly the type most suitable for EMP. It also can be a fizzle bomb, but it did happen on all tests, and I wouldn't bet on complete incompetence. EMP is created by intense gamma and xrays in the upper atmosphere. Neutron bomb is different exactly by not having shield reflecting or absorbing neutrons or gamma rays. It makes yield extremely low as neutrons responsible for chain reaction escape, but it can produce short burst of extremely intense gamma and high energy neutron rays. Yield is so low that once it is detonated near ground, you can survive close to the explosion, but radiation will be extreme and deadly. Many bunkers that are not deeply underground, cannot provide protection against such extreme radiation. Absorbed neutrons in the soil make normal elements into radioactive isotopes. You start having a thick radioactive layer of soil above and bunker must be way below it to provide protection.
The point is, big EMP can happen with low yield. That is a big threat as the nuke can both take of in the country of origin, or can be smuggled in, travel in a disguised container, submarine with whole missile. They do not need to smuggle it to the US, it can be smuggled even to Mexico or Cuba? That would be enough for the big part of the continent. Protection can be only shooting missile down before it reaches 300km altitude on extremely big territory.

Last Edited by EMPerror on 03/18/2013 04:15 PM
EMPerror  (OP)

User ID: 8804293
Lithuania
03/18/2013 07:01 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
...


No, it's not needed. Grounding can only protect against electrostatic field, and EMP is alternating electromagnetic field. Metal shield is protecting against EMP or high voltages. Once grounding wire is connected, it acts as an antenna collecting EMP.
Grounding is only used for installations that have equipment dependent on grounding like antennas, wired connections.

The most dangerous for grounding is E3 also called MHD-EMP. It causes currents in the ground that also travel through electric grid, pipes. It can cause discharges, sparks, can melt ground wire or cause fire.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Thank-You!

I was thinking that a grounding wire would act like a lightning rod so to speak!... but, there's so many conflicting opinions!

I was thinking about using a galvanized steel garbage can
lined with cardboard inside and wrapping the items in heavy duty tin foil in layers ... plastic wrap - tin foil - plastic wrap - tin foil, etc.

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


Galvanized steel garbage box should provide adequate protection. Wrapping it in thick foil is reducing EMP effects by a small fraction, so it won't hurt. Foil used alone can easily melt. That's how it looks in microwave. Similar effects with EMP would be within extremely short time periods and much higher power (if it happens, electronics is gone for sure).


[link to www.youtube.com]

Foil usually provides some protection against non EMP harmful signals. Most microchips are imported and it is a good question if they have undisclosed abilities to turn off permanently once some signal is received?
Layering it won't hurt, but it is not an extremely effective way.
A well sealed chemical resisting plastic bag is a must. This way you are protecting it from harmful chemicals and radiactive particles, it can be easily submerged into decontaminating aggressive chemical (like sodium hypochlorite also called bleach or other). Otherwise you are risking loosing your electronics or making dangerous to use. There are numerous chemical plants that after EMP would run out of control and cause problems of unimaginable proportions, not only for unprotected electronics.
I've witnessed one of the biggest chemical catastrophes which happened in Jonava 1989-03-20 when 7500tons of liquid ammonia were released from a collapsed tank. Witnesses tell that sewers in the vicinity reacted bubbling and popping all iron lids high into the air. Affected area was more than 50km reaching Ukmerge within few hours along the wind, and luckily wind direction changed pushing the cloud backwards towards Jonava and then Kedainiai (also 50km away). It could have been worse. Standard activated carbon gas mask was nearly useless against it. All wildlife was fleeing the zone some 40km away, including wild rats and mice which usually avoid running in the open.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.xxiamzius.lt]

Only specialized gas mask can help against this chemical. Once you know your surroundings and chemical plants, it's possible to "do the math". Blind possession of a standard filtration system or gas mask may only give false sense of security. Stockpiling of changeable specialized filters can be extremely important in some areas. It is another "Big topic". It can happen that it will fail and the only option will be to run away. You can't hope to outrun a cloud or wind without transport so there won't be much time to waste. Steel or container garage can be considered. Motorcycle kept in EMP protected box can be extremely useful (even bicycle may improve chances with lots of luck). When everything did settle down it may be possible to come back and there will be a task to decontaminate everything. Improper decontamination or failure to protect assets against contaminants can lead to a waste of valuable resources and health issues. Both of these hinder chances for survival.
A small steel (it's possible to test with magnet) metal box like the one from tea, candies or cookies can provide a good protection and they sometimes can protect against EMP on their own (thickness is the key and usual tin box wall thickness is 0.23mm). Using them as an additional protection in big container (like garbage box) would only improve survivability. This way, once place must be quickly abandoned, it's possible to take the most important items with you without compromising EMP protection.
 Quoting: EMPerror


So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...


Thanks Much! hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


EMP can change chemical composition, so this is important. More on that later.

Electronics can be wrapped once or multiple times in foil and put in plastic bag, or simply put into anti ESD (metalized) protective bag. It works as a protection and can easily be done. This way you will be sure, that you've done everything to protect this thing. Layering will not provide significantly better protection than wrapping multiple times into thick layer of foil without plastic bag between layers. It's not worth the effort. Thick wrapping can dissipate thermal energy much better and thus works better. It becomes something in between sold thick metal, which is the best, and a foil.
Plastic bag or several of them after that is a must. This is a chemically sensitive device.
For small critical devices it's possible to make custom, improved in many ways box.

First of all there is no ultimate protection. Weapons are improved all the time. If it will get hit by extreme some new type EMP, you will be close to ground zero (SREMP), or radiation protection won't be adequate (SGEMP), foil can melt inside and the same can happen with every microchip in the device. The question should be how human being can survive to see it happening, which is much more complicated task. EMP protection in this case is deeper underground to protect against radiation, thicker walls, additional internal thick high permeability metal box. Resources needed for protection grow exponentially from some point.

Galvanized steel trash can should offer adequate protect against known types of EMP and mentioned standard is also based on known types of EMP. It should provide good protection. The best protection is always in the middle of box. Only one part, contact between lid and can may be improved with conductive gasket. More layers of protection make better overall protection. Big can, smaller boxes and foil is a good improved protection.

I'm not using foil at all, the box should handle EMP, but there are no critical things for survival, so situation is different. Anti ESD bags are used for some spare parts that are sensitive or have open contacts. Usually these parts come with such bags, ant it's better to keep them there or use foil. When moving with a backpack or unpacking foil, it makes lots of sound and it's a big disadvantage. For backpack or portable anti EMP box I'm using metal box with lining made from RF absorbing material and anti ESD sponge that keeps things tight so that they do not break and do not cause sounds.
uscrusader1

User ID: 9491757
United States
03/18/2013 07:26 PM

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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
EMPerror,
Do you have any info on the North Korean 'supposed' EMP nuke yield and it's resultant effect radius for the US. Seems like a concern with US agencies, with their moving anti-missile batteries that direction.
 Quoting: uscrusader1


The only one having full info is likely their leader. There are however some things that can be guessed by the knowledge of basic principles involved. One nuclear EMP explosion can cover whole USA if it explodes in the middle, and this is mentioned in numerous books. The difference is only strength of EMP and level of damage. Scale of damage vs EMP electromagnetic field strength is not available like with pressure or thermal damage due to constantly changing technologies which are constantly getting more susceptible.
Data is conflicting about yield and that is a strange part, but all point to a low yield which hints that neutron or some high gamma bomb is being tested. Exactly the type most suitable for EMP. It also can be a fizzle bomb, but it did happen on all tests, and I wouldn't bet on complete incompetence. EMP is created by intense gamma and xrays in the upper atmosphere. Neutron bomb is different exactly by not having shield reflecting or absorbing neutrons or gamma rays. It makes yield extremely low as neutrons responsible for chain reaction escape, but it can produce short burst of extremely intense gamma and high energy neutron rays. Yield is so low that once it is detonated near ground, you can survive close to the explosion, but radiation will be extreme and deadly. Many bunkers that are not deeply underground, cannot provide protection against such extreme radiation. Absorbed neutrons in the soil make normal elements into radioactive isotopes. You start having a thick radioactive layer of soil above and bunker must be way below it to provide protection.
The point is, big EMP can happen with low yield. That is a big threat as the nuke can both take of in the country of origin, or can be smuggled in, travel in a disguised container, submarine with whole missile. They do not need to smuggle it to the US, it can be smuggled even to Mexico or Cuba? That would be enough for the big part of the continent. Protection can be only shooting missile down before it reaches 300km altitude on extremely big territory.
 Quoting: EMPerror

Thank you EMPerror, for adding even more doom to the otherwise sketchy North Korean nuke picture. I didn't think of the assymmetrical warfare potential you brought up. :)
A short trip to 300km from just over the coastline or North/South border would be hard to intercept in time, we have an especially inept dilettante president and administration.
Pretty much the plot of "One Second After" as I remember. :)
uscrusader1

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03/18/2013 07:35 PM

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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
EMPerror,
I've used rectangular copper braided wire instead of a single copper wire 'to ground' to prevent the ground wire from becoming an antenna to the shielded container. Am I on track with that?
Also what is the preferred 'case to contents' insulator thickness for 'general purpose' EMP protection within the shielded container? The minimum insulator thickness?
Anonymous Coward
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03/18/2013 07:41 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
what about a metal dryer with elcetronic equipment placed in metal safe? Should I ground the dryer or leave it plugged in?
Anonymous Coward
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03/18/2013 07:52 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
the biggest problem with this scenario , is the melting down of all the countrys nuke reactors at the same time. That will be priority one.
EMPerror  (OP)

User ID: 8804293
Lithuania
03/18/2013 08:14 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
What will be the effect on the human body? Or those with artificial hearts and so forth?
 Quoting: Integrity101


Prolonged high energy electromagnetic waves affect human body negatively, can cause distinctive burns or even death. EMP lasts only for extremely short time so effects of it are minimal and barely noticeable. It does not have enough time to make significant changes neither can cause burns. This may not be so with some high purity chemicals usually used for tests as some chemicals degrade in the presence of high energy electromagnetic fields.

Luckily people can survive EMP without much problem. Energy levels are below levels that are needed for transcranial magnetic stimulation, so nervous system is not disrupted in any drastic way either, despite being electrochemically based. It all depends on how much energy is used by EMP. With current known technology it is a limited number.

Medical electronic devices that are implanted may not be so resistant and may not survive it. EMP may be fatal for these people, so EMP protected shelter, container may be the only answer.
Medications after EMP may be also a big problem. Without electricity, production, transport would come to a complete halt and realistically without any prospect of recovery for years. Stockpiling may be the only way to survive for people who's lives are dependent on medications.
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
03/18/2013 11:00 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
EMPerror,
I've used rectangular copper braided wire instead of a single copper wire 'to ground' to prevent the ground wire from becoming an antenna to the shielded container. Am I on track with that?
Also what is the preferred 'case to contents' insulator thickness for 'general purpose' EMP protection within the shielded container? The minimum insulator thickness?
 Quoting: uscrusader1


Grounding is not needed for any box that has no working electronics inside with electric connections to the outside. It only causes trouble.

This wire will not change much as there is no effective way to prevent long conductor with such energies acting as an antenna. Big ferrite coil prevents high frequency currents from flowing, but with such energies, sparks would pass through air dramatic distances and only ceramic insulators, no worse than the ones on high voltage lines would make a difference which makes it not the way to do it unless it's installation with antennas requiring grounding and worth investment for numerous workarounds.
Usual solutions are to make extremely thick wires to the ground so that worst possible EMP would not melt and harden EMP protection a lot. Every external component is then interconnected with a much thicker wire so that currents from different grounds would not make sparks traveling from every grounded device. It makes lots of ground loops, uses up lots of metal for wiring and there is no guarantee that everything will not melt with higher power EMP than expected.

Protection principles are completely different from simple Faraday cage, where you can have DC current flowing inside and extremely low voltage as metal resistance is small. With AC current is changing with time. As current flows with the speed of light, by the time current flows from one end of the box to the other, current changes. Once current changes, there is voltage change too. The higher frequency, the more voltage and current changes by the time it travels from one end to the other. It means that with certain frequency you can have huge voltage differences inside the cage if AC current flows which is not happening with DC in Faraday cage. With DC you can have high voltage charges that can spark from one point to the other, if they are not connected by wire. Grounding is important. With AC you are making voltage differences by connecting any wire or conductive extension through which current can flow or you are making an antenna.

Skin effect is the only thing protecting from EMP in metal casing as it makes high frequency currents travel only through thin surface layer of metal. If you have solid metal box, currents appear only on the outside surface of metal case and cannot pass to the inside part. Part leaking inside is extremely small. Current fades exponentially with depth. The higher frequency, the thinner is surface layer. By increasing metal thickness EMP protection becomes better against lower frequencies that have thicker current layer on the surface which leaks then less inside.

There is no strict requirement to use insulator inside the box. Inside surface can be understood as a current loop. Problems rise when there are leaking significant currents inside the container. Once you have a device touching this loop, it becomes part of it and currents start flowing through the surface of device and in worst case scenario, they get inside and do something bad. Usually device is much smaller than inner perimeter making it extremely bad situation, currents of a big loop passing through a small protected device. Even if there is no contact and device is close to the flowing current, currents are induced inside the device too. It is a better situation, but non the less not desirable. The best way is to put any insulator that would keep device not only insulated, but also at some distance from walls.

Last Edited by EMPerror on 03/18/2013 11:19 PM
Anonymous Coward
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03/18/2013 11:16 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
Extreme CME can only mean the plasma of the corona of the Sun is now kissing the surface, the soil of planet Earth.. when that Coronal Mass ejected from the Sun is of such a mass that pounds of it impact the soil at your feet..

Otherwise, a NOVA.. otherwise the adjective, "Extreme" as no meaning in that context.

Grow up already,.
EMPerror  (OP)

User ID: 8804293
Lithuania
03/18/2013 11:25 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
what about a metal dryer with elcetronic equipment placed in metal safe? Should I ground the dryer or leave it plugged in?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36462764


Everything worth EMP survival, should be kept away with a distance from electric grid, groundings and metal pipes, etc.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2013 05:27 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
...


Thank-You!

I was thinking that a grounding wire would act like a lightning rod so to speak!... but, there's so many conflicting opinions!

I was thinking about using a galvanized steel garbage can
lined with cardboard inside and wrapping the items in heavy duty tin foil in layers ... plastic wrap - tin foil - plastic wrap - tin foil, etc.

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


Galvanized steel garbage box should provide adequate protection. Wrapping it in thick foil is reducing EMP effects by a small fraction, so it won't hurt. Foil used alone can easily melt. That's how it looks in microwave. Similar effects with EMP would be within extremely short time periods and much higher power (if it happens, electronics is gone for sure).


[link to www.youtube.com]

Foil usually provides some protection against non EMP harmful signals. Most microchips are imported and it is a good question if they have undisclosed abilities to turn off permanently once some signal is received?
Layering it won't hurt, but it is not an extremely effective way.
A well sealed chemical resisting plastic bag is a must. This way you are protecting it from harmful chemicals and radiactive particles, it can be easily submerged into decontaminating aggressive chemical (like sodium hypochlorite also called bleach or other). Otherwise you are risking loosing your electronics or making dangerous to use. There are numerous chemical plants that after EMP would run out of control and cause problems of unimaginable proportions, not only for unprotected electronics.
I've witnessed one of the biggest chemical catastrophes which happened in Jonava 1989-03-20 when 7500tons of liquid ammonia were released from a collapsed tank. Witnesses tell that sewers in the vicinity reacted bubbling and popping all iron lids high into the air. Affected area was more than 50km reaching Ukmerge within few hours along the wind, and luckily wind direction changed pushing the cloud backwards towards Jonava and then Kedainiai (also 50km away). It could have been worse. Standard activated carbon gas mask was nearly useless against it. All wildlife was fleeing the zone some 40km away, including wild rats and mice which usually avoid running in the open.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.xxiamzius.lt]

Only specialized gas mask can help against this chemical. Once you know your surroundings and chemical plants, it's possible to "do the math". Blind possession of a standard filtration system or gas mask may only give false sense of security. Stockpiling of changeable specialized filters can be extremely important in some areas. It is another "Big topic". It can happen that it will fail and the only option will be to run away. You can't hope to outrun a cloud or wind without transport so there won't be much time to waste. Steel or container garage can be considered. Motorcycle kept in EMP protected box can be extremely useful (even bicycle may improve chances with lots of luck). When everything did settle down it may be possible to come back and there will be a task to decontaminate everything. Improper decontamination or failure to protect assets against contaminants can lead to a waste of valuable resources and health issues. Both of these hinder chances for survival.
A small steel (it's possible to test with magnet) metal box like the one from tea, candies or cookies can provide a good protection and they sometimes can protect against EMP on their own (thickness is the key and usual tin box wall thickness is 0.23mm). Using them as an additional protection in big container (like garbage box) would only improve survivability. This way, once place must be quickly abandoned, it's possible to take the most important items with you without compromising EMP protection.
 Quoting: EMPerror


So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...


Thanks Much! hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


EMP can change chemical composition, so this is important. More on that later.

Electronics can be wrapped once or multiple times in foil and put in plastic bag, or simply put into anti ESD (metalized) protective bag. It works as a protection and can easily be done. This way you will be sure, that you've done everything to protect this thing. Layering will not provide significantly better protection than wrapping multiple times into thick layer of foil without plastic bag between layers. It's not worth the effort. Thick wrapping can dissipate thermal energy much better and thus works better. It becomes something in between sold thick metal, which is the best, and a foil.
Plastic bag or several of them after that is a must. This is a chemically sensitive device.
For small critical devices it's possible to make custom, improved in many ways box.

First of all there is no ultimate protection. Weapons are improved all the time. If it will get hit by extreme some new type EMP, you will be close to ground zero (SREMP), or radiation protection won't be adequate (SGEMP), foil can melt inside and the same can happen with every microchip in the device. The question should be how human being can survive to see it happening, which is much more complicated task. EMP protection in this case is deeper underground to protect against radiation, thicker walls, additional internal thick high permeability metal box. Resources needed for protection grow exponentially from some point.

Galvanized steel trash can should offer adequate protect against known types of EMP and mentioned standard is also based on known types of EMP. It should provide good protection. The best protection is always in the middle of box. Only one part, contact between lid and can may be improved with conductive gasket. More layers of protection make better overall protection. Big can, smaller boxes and foil is a good improved protection.

I'm not using foil at all, the box should handle EMP, but there are no critical things for survival, so situation is different. Anti ESD bags are used for some spare parts that are sensitive or have open contacts. Usually these parts come with such bags, ant it's better to keep them there or use foil. When moving with a backpack or unpacking foil, it makes lots of sound and it's a big disadvantage. For backpack or portable anti EMP box I'm using metal box with lining made from RF absorbing material and anti ESD sponge that keeps things tight so that they do not break and do not cause sounds.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Thank-You!... hf

I understand that in our day and age the weapons get stronger and there's no way to be 100% sure that what we do will work, but just doing it and hoping for the best is better than not doing anything and the worst happens and thinking I should have done something...

I looked up the Anti-ESD bags you mentioned and they are cheap enough, I may get some... would I use the foil after putting the items in the bag or before?

I really appreciate your patients in helping and answering my questions!...

peace
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2013 05:39 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
the biggest problem with this scenario , is the melting down of all the countrys nuke reactors at the same time. That will be priority one.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17095177


Exactly.

I've stated this in a previous EMP thread, but just about the only close to safe place you can go in the U.S. after an EMP is in and around Salt Lake City, Utah.

Based on where the nuclear power plants are across the U.S., and the way the weather patterns go, it's the only real place that would have not only proximity away from nuclear plants, but also be away from major continuous 10,000 year fallout.

Draw a traingle from Salt Lake City, to Sacramento CA, to Portland OR. That will be the habitable zone for around 200-300 years, before the entire planet is a waste land of nuclear fall out caused by our reactors. At that point, you better be inside NORAD in colorado for about 50,000 years worth of human civilization or we'll be extinct. 50k years of civilization is more than we have had written in our history to this day by about 10 times.
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
03/19/2013 08:41 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
Extreme CME can only mean the plasma of the corona of the Sun is now kissing the surface, the soil of planet Earth.. when that Coronal Mass ejected from the Sun is of such a mass that pounds of it impact the soil at your feet..

Otherwise, a NOVA.. otherwise the adjective, "Extreme" as no meaning in that context.

Grow up already,.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


Thick atmosphere acts as a dozen of yards of solid concrete and provides good natural protection. We normally don't have deadly radiation or plasma hitting the earth like Moon or Mars does. At the same time plasma interacts with atmosphere and Earth magnetic field, creating MHD-EMP, like the one during Carrington event, which was meant be the word "extreme". Even a much weaker CME like march 1989 geomagnetic storm can cause trouble.
Not only Sun can make it happen. There are gama ray burst events, supernova explosions too, and P.LaViolette superwave theory which may be more than disturbing.

CME of the magnitude you are describing would sterilize impacted area with heat and radiation and would change atmosphere composition. That's a doom for the life on Earth as we know it.
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
03/19/2013 09:28 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
...


Galvanized steel garbage box should provide adequate protection. Wrapping it in thick foil is reducing EMP effects by a small fraction, so it won't hurt. Foil used alone can easily melt. That's how it looks in microwave. Similar effects with EMP would be within extremely short time periods and much higher power (if it happens, electronics is gone for sure).


[link to www.youtube.com]

Foil usually provides some protection against non EMP harmful signals. Most microchips are imported and it is a good question if they have undisclosed abilities to turn off permanently once some signal is received?
Layering it won't hurt, but it is not an extremely effective way.
A well sealed chemical resisting plastic bag is a must. This way you are protecting it from harmful chemicals and radiactive particles, it can be easily submerged into decontaminating aggressive chemical (like sodium hypochlorite also called bleach or other). Otherwise you are risking loosing your electronics or making dangerous to use. There are numerous chemical plants that after EMP would run out of control and cause problems of unimaginable proportions, not only for unprotected electronics.
I've witnessed one of the biggest chemical catastrophes which happened in Jonava 1989-03-20 when 7500tons of liquid ammonia were released from a collapsed tank. Witnesses tell that sewers in the vicinity reacted bubbling and popping all iron lids high into the air. Affected area was more than 50km reaching Ukmerge within few hours along the wind, and luckily wind direction changed pushing the cloud backwards towards Jonava and then Kedainiai (also 50km away). It could have been worse. Standard activated carbon gas mask was nearly useless against it. All wildlife was fleeing the zone some 40km away, including wild rats and mice which usually avoid running in the open.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.xxiamzius.lt]

Only specialized gas mask can help against this chemical. Once you know your surroundings and chemical plants, it's possible to "do the math". Blind possession of a standard filtration system or gas mask may only give false sense of security. Stockpiling of changeable specialized filters can be extremely important in some areas. It is another "Big topic". It can happen that it will fail and the only option will be to run away. You can't hope to outrun a cloud or wind without transport so there won't be much time to waste. Steel or container garage can be considered. Motorcycle kept in EMP protected box can be extremely useful (even bicycle may improve chances with lots of luck). When everything did settle down it may be possible to come back and there will be a task to decontaminate everything. Improper decontamination or failure to protect assets against contaminants can lead to a waste of valuable resources and health issues. Both of these hinder chances for survival.
A small steel (it's possible to test with magnet) metal box like the one from tea, candies or cookies can provide a good protection and they sometimes can protect against EMP on their own (thickness is the key and usual tin box wall thickness is 0.23mm). Using them as an additional protection in big container (like garbage box) would only improve survivability. This way, once place must be quickly abandoned, it's possible to take the most important items with you without compromising EMP protection.
 Quoting: EMPerror


So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...


Thanks Much! hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


EMP can change chemical composition, so this is important. More on that later.

Electronics can be wrapped once or multiple times in foil and put in plastic bag, or simply put into anti ESD (metalized) protective bag. It works as a protection and can easily be done. This way you will be sure, that you've done everything to protect this thing. Layering will not provide significantly better protection than wrapping multiple times into thick layer of foil without plastic bag between layers. It's not worth the effort. Thick wrapping can dissipate thermal energy much better and thus works better. It becomes something in between sold thick metal, which is the best, and a foil.
Plastic bag or several of them after that is a must. This is a chemically sensitive device.
For small critical devices it's possible to make custom, improved in many ways box.

First of all there is no ultimate protection. Weapons are improved all the time. If it will get hit by extreme some new type EMP, you will be close to ground zero (SREMP), or radiation protection won't be adequate (SGEMP), foil can melt inside and the same can happen with every microchip in the device. The question should be how human being can survive to see it happening, which is much more complicated task. EMP protection in this case is deeper underground to protect against radiation, thicker walls, additional internal thick high permeability metal box. Resources needed for protection grow exponentially from some point.

Galvanized steel trash can should offer adequate protect against known types of EMP and mentioned standard is also based on known types of EMP. It should provide good protection. The best protection is always in the middle of box. Only one part, contact between lid and can may be improved with conductive gasket. More layers of protection make better overall protection. Big can, smaller boxes and foil is a good improved protection.

I'm not using foil at all, the box should handle EMP, but there are no critical things for survival, so situation is different. Anti ESD bags are used for some spare parts that are sensitive or have open contacts. Usually these parts come with such bags, ant it's better to keep them there or use foil. When moving with a backpack or unpacking foil, it makes lots of sound and it's a big disadvantage. For backpack or portable anti EMP box I'm using metal box with lining made from RF absorbing material and anti ESD sponge that keeps things tight so that they do not break and do not cause sounds.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Thank-You!... hf

I understand that in our day and age the weapons get stronger and there's no way to be 100% sure that what we do will work, but just doing it and hoping for the best is better than not doing anything and the worst happens and thinking I should have done something...

I looked up the Anti-ESD bags you mentioned and they are cheap enough, I may get some... would I use the foil after putting the items in the bag or before?

I really appreciate your patients in helping and answering my questions!...

peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


This bag is usually used for the device directly. It is intended to protect contacts from sparking when you are taking it into your hands. It acts exactly as a thin foil and a bag on top of that, but bag material is slightly conductive (slightly conductive type should be considered) so it makes a difference. It prevents electrostatic charges from building up. The same goes for anti-ESD sponge, it has no metal layer, but is slightly conductive itself.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35094424
United States
03/20/2013 05:44 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
...


So, would you suggest using tin foil at all?... Or is there
still a chance it could melt even in a galvanized steel can?... also should plastic even be used to alternate wrap?
plastic, foil, plastic, foil, Etc.

How about wrapping it in foil put in a metal cookie tin and then a galvanized steel can?

I appreciate all the advice, I'm trying to find someway to protect a diabetic testing meter and most likely strips
for it, as I think there's some kind of metal that may be used by the meter, have to take one apart more in detail...


Thanks Much! hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


EMP can change chemical composition, so this is important. More on that later.

Electronics can be wrapped once or multiple times in foil and put in plastic bag, or simply put into anti ESD (metalized) protective bag. It works as a protection and can easily be done. This way you will be sure, that you've done everything to protect this thing. Layering will not provide significantly better protection than wrapping multiple times into thick layer of foil without plastic bag between layers. It's not worth the effort. Thick wrapping can dissipate thermal energy much better and thus works better. It becomes something in between sold thick metal, which is the best, and a foil.
Plastic bag or several of them after that is a must. This is a chemically sensitive device.
For small critical devices it's possible to make custom, improved in many ways box.

First of all there is no ultimate protection. Weapons are improved all the time. If it will get hit by extreme some new type EMP, you will be close to ground zero (SREMP), or radiation protection won't be adequate (SGEMP), foil can melt inside and the same can happen with every microchip in the device. The question should be how human being can survive to see it happening, which is much more complicated task. EMP protection in this case is deeper underground to protect against radiation, thicker walls, additional internal thick high permeability metal box. Resources needed for protection grow exponentially from some point.

Galvanized steel trash can should offer adequate protect against known types of EMP and mentioned standard is also based on known types of EMP. It should provide good protection. The best protection is always in the middle of box. Only one part, contact between lid and can may be improved with conductive gasket. More layers of protection make better overall protection. Big can, smaller boxes and foil is a good improved protection.

I'm not using foil at all, the box should handle EMP, but there are no critical things for survival, so situation is different. Anti ESD bags are used for some spare parts that are sensitive or have open contacts. Usually these parts come with such bags, ant it's better to keep them there or use foil. When moving with a backpack or unpacking foil, it makes lots of sound and it's a big disadvantage. For backpack or portable anti EMP box I'm using metal box with lining made from RF absorbing material and anti ESD sponge that keeps things tight so that they do not break and do not cause sounds.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Thank-You!... hf

I understand that in our day and age the weapons get stronger and there's no way to be 100% sure that what we do will work, but just doing it and hoping for the best is better than not doing anything and the worst happens and thinking I should have done something...

I looked up the Anti-ESD bags you mentioned and they are cheap enough, I may get some... would I use the foil after putting the items in the bag or before?

I really appreciate your patients in helping and answering my questions!...

peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35094424


This bag is usually used for the device directly. It is intended to protect contacts from sparking when you are taking it into your hands. It acts exactly as a thin foil and a bag on top of that, but bag material is slightly conductive (slightly conductive type should be considered) so it makes a difference. It prevents electrostatic charges from building up. The same goes for anti-ESD sponge, it has no metal layer, but is slightly conductive itself.
 Quoting: EMPerror


Many Thanks!
roseroseroseroseroseroseroserose
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
03/20/2013 10:08 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
It's a map of reactors around the world that looks up to date.
[link to www.netgis.de]

Out of electric grid they have the best protection, are isolated for security reasons, not synchronized with the grid. It means they have the biggest chance to survive CME or MHD-EMP (not the other forms) out of all power plants. On the other hand their threat is incomparable if something goes wrong. Some of them can survive through passive cooling without electricity, some do not. Anyway it's better to prepare in advance. It should also apply to any chemical plants nearby.

Communications are likely to be down, so Geiger counter, which must be protected against EMP is important. Checking or logging wind direction may help a lot. Communication with others that may be closer can be also important and give early warning about it happening. Chemicals mostly can be smelled or sometimes seen and there are detectors, but it's another "big topic".

Time keeping after EMP is an issue. There may be no opportunity to check or adjust time for a long time. Pure mechanical clocks are not precise enough for long term timekeeping, but are fairly EMP resistant (EMP can melt some small parts of it too). It may be a good idea to always keep EMP protected more accurate electronic watch or clock with long lasting batteries (there are batteries lasting 5-10 years).

Last Edited by EMPerror on 03/20/2013 10:10 AM
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
03/20/2013 10:39 AM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
Timekeeping is important when you are planning something within a group or trying to use radio communication with someone far away. There may not be enough time to do that or not enough energy. The same time known by all parties when to use radio is important.
Communications through radio may not be safe, but it can give warnings or news about the situation.
EMPerror  (OP)

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Lithuania
04/09/2013 03:32 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME
Once there is a grounding problem, as there is ham radio in shelter with big antenna outside, there are pipes, grid wires, lightning protection, prepare for high voltages and currents. These work as antennas and need hardened protection. Ground currents from EMP or CME will surely test everything to the max. 90% of EMP energy is in the low frequencies (this may not be the case only with neutron bomb). Every connection with outside must have anti EMP filter or be in a tightly sealed metal pipe.

That's how tests with high currents look like. Improper connections, wrong layout or loose connections, poor contact can easily kill.


[link to www.youtube.com]


[link to www.youtube.com]

Last Edited by EMPerror on 04/09/2013 03:35 PM
EMPerror  (OP)

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04/09/2013 03:35 PM
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Re: EMP survival in case of war, extreme CME


Last Edited by EMPerror on 04/09/2013 03:35 PM





GLP