Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,762 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 283,817
Pageviews Today: 483,489Threads Today: 211Posts Today: 3,919
08:10 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture

 
Yamatodamashi
Offer Upgrade

User ID: 29068101
France
03/04/2013 05:30 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
I couldn't find any scripture talking about a rapture of christians... And it is said that christians will suffer during tribulation so it means that rapture won't happens? I am lost because I could read this on youtube:

"Satan invented the concept of a rapture of the church and will send fallen angels to rapture christians, those who believe in rapture will be taken away from God"

Anybody ?
God and Jesus are the way.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35490991
Canada
03/04/2013 05:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22857697
United States
03/04/2013 05:51 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35490991



1) Start studying Greek or get a Strong's Concordance and understand what the word "air" really means.

2) Read the entire chapter again, understand grammar, and establish Paul's subject, which is...don't be ignorant of where the dead are.

3) Read 2nd Thessalonians and understand that the Lord does not return until AFTER the son of perdition is revealed. By the way, there is only one named entity who has already been sentenced to perish.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35569223
Germany
03/04/2013 06:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
"Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body[a] they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment

Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain." - Isaiah 26:19-21



I Will Take My People Out Of

10/7/05 From God The Father -
A Letter Given to Timothy... For All Those Who Say The Father Shall Not Gather Up His People, Through Christ, and Take Them Out of the Day of Troubles, And For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear



Thus says The Lord to the churches:
You have misunderstood The Lordís purpose, and made His forgiveness of non-effect, and His judgment unjust. Woe, I say to you, you do greatly err. Shall The Lord, your God, lie to His prophets and give them false testimony?... Certainly not! Pray for yourselves, oh churches of arrogance, that you and all your members are not left standing upon the earth in bewilderment, when I, YES, EVEN I, send My Son to gather up His chosen flock and shelter them from My fury. You have read My Sonís words, for they are also My words, and you have not heard nor understood. Repent, therefore, because of your pride and arrogance, and pray double for those that you have led from the Truth of the forgiveness in Christ.



Behold...

The angels ascend and descend upon The Son of Man.



For more search under google:

Letters from God and His Christ


video links:
[link to www.youtube.com]
bigD111

User ID: 14034394
United States
03/04/2013 06:34 PM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
An honest answer would have to be, that no one really knows for sure. The word the rapture bunch likes to use is harpazo, which alludes to being taken as Elijah was. The old testament seems to suggest that part of Jordan will be an area for Gods people. None of us really knows if this will happen or not. But don't get on an alien spaceship if you want to live. They are demons, nothing more.
deplorably republican
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 19716744
United States
03/04/2013 06:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
There is no rapture,, The idea was first brought forth by some dude named john darby in 1830.. The above verses were read for One thousand Eight hundred and 30 years without anyone saying this was the case..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17813597
Australia
03/04/2013 06:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
I couldn't find any scripture talking about a rapture of christians... And it is said that christians will suffer during tribulation so it means that rapture won't happens? I am lost because I could read this on youtube:

"Satan invented the concept of a rapture of the church and will send fallen angels to rapture christians, those who believe in rapture will be taken away from God"

Anybody ?
 Quoting: Yamatodamashi


Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after satan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
saved

User ID: 35577869
United States
03/04/2013 06:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
I couldn't find any scripture talking about a rapture of christians... And it is said that christians will suffer during tribulation so it means that rapture won't happens? I am lost because I could read this on youtube:

"Satan invented the concept of a rapture of the church and will send fallen angels to rapture christians, those who believe in rapture will be taken away from God"

Anybody ?
 Quoting: Yamatodamashi


True for sure there is no rapture, God leads us all through the time of great tribulation. Rapture is born out of the minds of fearful men.
Come And Take It!
saved

User ID: 35577869
United States
03/04/2013 06:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35490991


He plainly says "on the last day" period!
Come And Take It!
Mike Hawk

User ID: 35582448
United States
03/04/2013 06:42 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
I couldn't find any scripture talking about a rapture of christians... And it is said that christians will suffer during tribulation so it means that rapture won't happens? I am lost because I could read this on youtube:

"Satan invented the concept of a rapture of the church and will send fallen angels to rapture christians, those who believe in rapture will be taken away from God"

Anybody ?
 Quoting: Yamatodamashi


Sorry no rapture. Only death camps and guillotines.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1194370
United States
03/04/2013 06:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
Hello OP,

Perhaps some questions to ask the Holy Spirit;

What is "the tribulation"?
Who is it for specifically?
What is the church?
Where is the church found in the book of revelation?

Ask The spirit to reveal these things to you as you read and meditate on scripture.

A Christian does not need men to instruct them on the things of God. The Holy Spirit, which dwells within everyone born of The Spirit is their instructor and comforter and guide in all things pertaining to life.

Peace,
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28689320
United States
03/04/2013 07:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35490991


This happens before:
Those that refuse the mark will be killed
Days must be shortened in this time or no one would make it
MHz

User ID: 34243878
Canada
03/04/2013 07:25 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
The return has 1/3 of the living survive, they are joined by some that need resurrection and together they are the whole population for the 1,000 years. They are there to be human witnesses to what fire from God in Heaven is like when sending somebody to the fiery lake. While the earth is being melted that group of people ore off to the 3rd heaven, a place further than the extents of the universe as it too disappears in the distance before the Sion of Hebrews 12 and Re:20 is reached.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:

but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

During the 1,000 year people are sinless and immortal. The river and tree of life is described in Eze:47. What is done 1,000 times in that 1,000 years is in Zec:14. After the GWT and entering New Jerusalem and coming to the New Earth the people not alive exit and make their homes as in Isa:65 and the ones alive for the 1,000 years stay in the City and do the same thing that Israel did the 1,000 times the remnants of the nations came and visited them.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17813597
Australia
03/04/2013 07:30 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35490991


This happens before:
Those that refuse the mark will be killed
Days must be shortened in this time or no one would make it
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28689320


It happens AFTER.

PROOF??

try reading your bible for a change instead of mens LIES.



1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after satan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
McMiller

User ID: 33888618
Canada
03/04/2013 07:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21291600
United States
03/04/2013 08:27 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
1st Thessalonians

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The big argument is does this happen before or after the tribulation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35490991


once the restrainer is gone from here, rapture will occur.

[link to www.watchmanbiblestudy.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 2177569
United States
03/04/2013 08:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
The rapture is simply un-biblical.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24049598
United States
03/04/2013 08:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
well i'm sure that's all cleared up ... lol !!!


basing a life time of belief on a text that can be interpreted in many different ways ... like Nostradamus predictions


sheep!


don't you think your g-d would have made it all plain instead of what you have?


think

you were given a brain for a reason
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35431540
United States
03/04/2013 09:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
The return has 1/3 of the living survive, they are joined by some that need resurrection and together they are the whole population for the 1,000 years. They are there to be human witnesses to what fire from God in Heaven is like when sending somebody to the fiery lake. While the earth is being melted that group of people ore off to the 3rd heaven, a place further than the extents of the universe as it too disappears in the distance before the Sion of Hebrews 12 and Re:20 is reached.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:

but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

During the 1,000 year people are sinless and immortal. The river and tree of life is described in Eze:47. What is done 1,000 times in that 1,000 years is in Zec:14. After the GWT and entering New Jerusalem and coming to the New Earth the people not alive exit and make their homes as in Isa:65 and the ones alive for the 1,000 years stay in the City and do the same thing that Israel did the 1,000 times the remnants of the nations came and visited them.
 Quoting: MHz
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35399788
United States
03/04/2013 09:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
While the word "rapture" cannot be found, there are Scriptures that talk about believers being caught up by angels. This will happen just prior to God's wrath.


God's wrath is unique and cannot be duplicated by satan, man, etc.


It is important to determine where exactly satan's wrath ends and God's wrath begins.


Satan's wrath has actually been going on a long time and will continue into Daniel's 70th week. He will be kicked out of heaven full of wrath.


The first five seals of Revelation are a continuation of satan's wrath as expressed through men. The 3rd Seal for example.....a day's wages for a loaf of bread.....will be engineered by the elites.


The 5th Seal begins at the mid=point of Daniel's 70th week. Satan, the man of evil, the false prophet, and those following them will first try to kill off all the Jews. God however will protect a remnant in the wilderness. He will then go after the "offspring".....the Gentile believers in Christ who have been grafted into the natural branch. See Rev 12.


This persecution will go on for a few years and then God will cut it short (end it)......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


Then you have the 6th Seal......worldwide darkness for an unspecified period of time. The elites will hide in fear in the mountains and caves. They will declare that God's wrath is about to begin. See Rev 6: 12-17


Then the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm. They will remain on earth.


Then a large group from all the nations is discussed in heaven. They are not spirits.....as they can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands. These are the Gentile Christians who have been caught up by the angels. See Rev Chp 7. and Mt. 24: 29-31


The following concepts are man-made and should not be used:


The Tribulation Period
The Great Tribulation Period.


When you come across these words.....just translate them in their normal sense.....without assigning 3.5 years or 7.0 years to them.


tribulation......a time of great trouble.
great tribulation......ditto.


God's wrath......the 7th Seal trumpet and bowl judgments......comprising the final 1.5 years (approx.) of Daniel's 70th week. The fifth trumpet judgment alone is five months in duration.


The Day of the Lord is much longer than a human 24 hour day. As it is mentionned in both Revelations and 2 Peter 3: 10-13 (end of the millenium).......it appears to be approx. 1,000 years in duration.
MHz

User ID: 34243878
Canada
03/04/2013 09:57 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Bible prophecy specialist required = question about rapture
The return has 1/3 of the living survive, they are joined by some that need resurrection and together they are the whole population for the 1,000 years. They are there to be human witnesses to what fire from God in Heaven is like when sending somebody to the fiery lake. While the earth is being melted that group of people ore off to the 3rd heaven, a place further than the extents of the universe as it too disappears in the distance before the Sion of Hebrews 12 and Re:20 is reached.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:

but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

During the 1,000 year people are sinless and immortal. The river and tree of life is described in Eze:47. What is done 1,000 times in that 1,000 years is in Zec:14. After the GWT and entering New Jerusalem and coming to the New Earth the people not alive exit and make their homes as in Isa:65 and the ones alive for the 1,000 years stay in the City and do the same thing that Israel did the 1,000 times the remnants of the nations came and visited them.
 Quoting: MHz

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35431540


Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Re:10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Re:10:8:
And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again,
and said,
Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Isa:66:10-20:
Rejoice ye with Jerusalem,
and be glad with her,
all ye that love her:
rejoice for joy with her,
all ye that mourn for her:
That ye may suck,
and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out,
and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
For thus saith the LORD,
Behold,
I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream:
then shall ye suck,
ye shall be borne upon her sides,
and be dandled upon her knees.
As one whom his mother comforteth,
so will I comfort you;
and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
And when ye see this,
your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb:
and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants,
and his indignation toward his enemies.
For,
behold,
the LORD will come with fire,
and with his chariots like a whirlwind,
to render his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
They that sanctify themselves,
and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh,
and the abomination,
and the mouse,
shall be consumed together,
saith the LORD.
For I know their works and their thoughts:
it shall come,
that I will gather all nations and tongues;
and they shall come,
and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them,
and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish,
Pul,
and Lud,
that draw the bow,
to Tubal,
and Javan,
to the isles afar off,
that have not heard my fame,
neither have seen my glory;
and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses,
and in chariots,
and in litters,
and upon mules,
and upon swift beasts,
to my holy mountain Jerusalem,
saith the LORD,
as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.



Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles
.
Zec:14:17:
And it shall be,
that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec:14:18:
And if the family of Egypt go not up,
and come not,
that have no rain;
there shall be the plague,
wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.





GLP