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Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality

 
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 10:36 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
I saw two really good ones here. One positive, and one was negative.

You make it seem like I'm clueless about the positive NDEs. For me to focus solely on positive NDEs, would be like preaching to the choir. Pretty much everyone are aware of the tunnel of light, seeing the deceased in a heavenly location, the life review, etc. This would be nothing new to most. If this was only shared, they won't see the whole picture.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Who told you that you need to only share positive NDE's? Can you please document where I have ever said such a thing? I have instead repeatedly requested that you report the 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' of NDE accounts and then allow the readers to make up their own minds without your trying to encourage them to conform to your personal beliefs in the process. In what world do the phrases 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' not include the negative accounts?

huh

Regarding your post above - so if an individual had a 'positive' NDE and met their deceased family members, had a life review, and there was no Jesus present - what need would that individual have upon returning to convert to christianity??? Can you explain this for me? Are these accounts of somehow of less significance than the ones you report on?

In the conversations I have had with individuals who reported positive NDE's, they have returned only to stressthe importance of embracing unconditional love and forgiveness - not any requirement or necessity to adopt any particular religious faith or dogmatic belief system. They have reinforced universal messages of wisdom in the form of two principles that apply to all humans equally and that operate outside the confines of any one particular religious faith or belief system.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
calin

User ID: 14023715
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05/19/2013 10:37 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
Interesting discussion. Thanks OP. )

No one really has all the answers. Experiencers tell of what they found to be true for them. Our truths are based on our experiences in life... beliefs, etc.

It is really a state of consciousness. No body.. just consciousness.

If one "believes" in demons, etc. then that will likely show up in their "afterlife" experiences. IE.. if they believe that they will go to hell for some religious beliefs, then they can surely manifest such a hellish event from their consciousness which will extend beyond the physical.

And the Jesus seeing reports are usually that someone "thinks" it was Jesus. They formed that conclusion in their consciousness based on their experiences, teachings, etc. Could be past life too... don't have that answer... nor does anyone in the physical right now.

Little children are susceptible to what they are told and when they report seeing Jesus, they had influence or suggestions from others... either before the NDE or after. A child would not even know the name Jesus unless told. There is no frame of reference.

I have other thoughts on this, but that's is enough of what I have to contribute to this discussion for now! ;)
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 10:39 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
As a side-note, I saw a post where you were going to start reading Williams Bulhman's work, on OBE. I had abandoned all religions for many years, and searched for truth. I tried Bulhman's method a little over 10 years ago, and it does work. I tried another method, by Robert Monroe, and it too works incredible for getting out of the body. I even taught the method to someone, and he was successful during his first OBE attempt.

I'm bring this up, to let you know I can relate to you. I too abandoned all religions, to seek truth for many years. The irony is that this search, led me to finding evidence for a Christianity.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Well in my journey of seeking I ended up finding my soul - and this experience allowed me to transcend my fears and to finally achieve an inner-peace within.

The truth is the only reason I feel inclined to respond to your threads is to provide balance in the discussion because I do not agree with your practice of subjectively presenting only NDE accounts that affirm your personal beliefs while excluding those that do not. This is not a phenomena than can be discussed in a subjective matter. It all needs to be laid out on the table and individuals need to make sense of it on their own terms and in the absence of any coaching/steering/promoting from others. As I have said in past discussions, I strongly feel you are doing a disservice to others by catering to a personal agenda when presenting accounts of this phenomena.
calin

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05/19/2013 10:48 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
I saw two really good ones here. One positive, and one was negative.

You make it seem like I'm clueless about the positive NDEs. For me to focus solely on positive NDEs, would be like preaching to the choir. Pretty much everyone are aware of the tunnel of light, seeing the deceased in a heavenly location, the life review, etc. This would be nothing new to most. If this was only shared, they won't see the whole picture.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Who told you that you need to only share positive NDE's? Can you please document where I have ever said such a thing? I have instead repeatedly requested that you report the 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' of NDE accounts and then allow the readers to make up their own minds without your trying to encourage them to conform to your personal beliefs in the process. In what world do the phrases 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' not include the negative accounts?

huh

Regarding your post above - so if an individual had a 'positive' NDE and met their deceased family members, had a life review, and there was no Jesus present - what need would that individual have upon returning to convert to christianity??? Can you explain this for me? Are these accounts of somehow of less significance than the ones you report on?

In the conversations I have had with individuals who reported positive NDE's, they have returned only to stressthe importance of embracing unconditional love and forgiveness - not any requirement or necessity to adopt any particular religious faith or dogmatic belief system. They have reinforced universal messages of wisdom in the form of two principles that apply to all humans equally and that operate outside the confines of any one particular religious faith or belief system.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Christ Consciousness is kindness, loving etc. One does not have to believe in anyone being a savior or a Son of God to BE those qualities. That's why is it called Christ Consciousness. :) Christ wouldn't have it any other way. Jesus did not feel worshiping him was the solution to humanity.

Being loving and kind and compassionate is all one really needs to feel good and valuable ... and to help others feel the same. No belief necessary in a savior. Jesus said "all this you can do and more". Let's all be saviors! :)

I never read or heard about NDE having to believe in a Jesus or avatar. In fact it is the opposite. When NDEs asked if they were required to believe, they were told NO.

Again, the "afterlife" experiences are a state of consciousness. One should step away from the physical state to understand that. It is a state where everything JUST IS.

haha... and this is my place of understanding... doesn't make it right either!!!

Last Edited by calin on 05/19/2013 10:49 AM
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 10:50 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
As a side-note, I saw a post where you were going to start reading Williams Bulhman's work, on OBE. I had abandoned all religions for many years, and searched for truth. I tried Bulhman's method a little over 10 years ago, and it does work. I tried another method, by Robert Monroe, and it too works incredible for getting out of the body. I even taught the method to someone, and he was successful during his first OBE attempt.

I'm bring this up, to let you know I can relate to you. I too abandoned all religions, to seek truth for many years. The irony is that this search, led me to finding evidence for a Christianity.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Well in my journey of seeking I ended up finding my soul - and this experience allowed me to transcend my fears and to finally achieve an inner-peace within.

The truth is the only reason I feel inclined to respond to your threads is to provide balance in the discussion because I do not agree with your practice of subjectively presenting only NDE accounts that affirm your personal belief system while excluding those that do not. This is not a phenomena than can be discussed in a subjective matter. It all needs to be laid out on the table and individuals need to make sense of it on their own terms and in the absence of any coaching/steering/promoting from others. As I have said in past discussions, I feel you are doing a disservice to others by catering to a personal agenda when presenting accounts of this phenomena.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


If I didn't lay it all out on the table, I would only speak about positive NDEs, and not discuss negative NDEs, demonology, DMT, mediums, akashic records, Nibiru, Annunaki, supernatural experiences that occur with Jesus and that aren't even NDEs, which was mentioned in this thread.

As stated, many are already well aware of the positive NDEs. It would be redundant to talk about this. In addition, most believe these are mere hallucinations, and don't even care about the veridical information that shows it's not a hallucination. I can keep repeating this, but people still state these are imaginations. So, it's pointless to share this with most, or even go further. For example, I could share 1000s postive NDEs, and many would still state, these are nothing more than the product of the person's imaginations.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 10:53 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Who told you that you need to only share positive NDE's? Can you please document where I have ever said such a thing? I have instead repeatedly requested that you report the 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' of NDE accounts and then allow the readers to make up their own minds without your trying to encourage them to conform to your personal beliefs in the process. In what world do the phrases 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' not include the negative accounts?

huh

Regarding your post above - so if an individual had a 'positive' NDE and met their deceased family members, had a life review, and there was no Jesus present - what need would that individual have upon returning to convert to christianity??? Can you explain this for me? Are these accounts of somehow of less significance than the ones you report on?

In the conversations I have had with individuals who reported positive NDE's, they have returned only to stressthe importance of embracing unconditional love and forgiveness - not any requirement or necessity to adopt any particular religious faith or dogmatic belief system. They have reinforced universal messages of wisdom in the form of two principles that apply to all humans equally and that operate outside the confines of any one particular religious faith or belief system.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

I never read or heard about NDE having to believe in a Jesus or avatar.
 Quoting: calin


If you only look at the postive NDEs, which are in nearly all books, than yes, you probably never heard of having to believe in Jesus. Seek out and study the hellish NDEs, this is where you'll find, that they learned that it was essential to accept Jesus.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:01 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
And the Jesus seeing reports are usually that someone "thinks" it was Jesus.
 Quoting: calin


There's a little girl, while in heaven, was told by an angel, that they were leading her to Jesus.

So, she didn't merely think she was going to see Jesus, but was told, she would see Jesus.

So was this a hallucination?

No

Why?

In this same experience, she met a lot of the deceased. Learned of information from them, that was impossible to know, and that was previously unknown. After returning to her body, the information was researched and verified to be true.

Meaning she didn't merely imagine the whole experience, which also included seeing Jesus.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:07 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
The people they saw did NOT introduce themselves as, for instance, Jesus. These were interpretations by the person
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37142853


False

There are cases, where the person are told, that it's Jesus.

In addition, they see the crucifixion wounds of Jesus. This is especially significant with Muslims, who saw this. Since Islam, teaches that Jesus was never crucified. After the experience, the Muslim left Islam and converted to Christianity. This occurred with many Muslims.

The same can't be said with Christians, who saw Muhammad and converted to Islam. Since both Christians, and Muslims, haven's seen Muhammad in their NDEs, from what I came across so far.

In addition, Christians, or any other religious group, in their NDEs, haven't seen Isa, the Jesus version in the Quran, and then converted to Islam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


If that be the case, and I haven't read one case like that, since history proves "Jesus" is NOT a legitimate character, then the entire picture is a lie. From this point it has to be established if the individual case is a fraud, or it is all a fraud. There is no "Jesus" of "God". All religion is nothing more than very old made up interpretations of life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37142853


They found homes, prior to 50 AD, that had alters with crosses on them. Doesn't sound like history disproved Jesus, with absolute certainty.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I have no problem with the fact Jesus (or whoever he really was) lived and died at the hands of the Romans and was one of a list of messianic wannabes both before and after him. All I'm saying is that 1) this "end times event" was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago, and it didn't, and 2) the history of the "messiah" shows changes over the centuries regarding the character himself (as usual). Jesus was NOT what people claimed he was. He was a man ... and as a man he was typically wrong ... just like the people who changed the picture of the ORIGINAL messiah details hundreds of years earlier.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:13 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate??? We are not talking about what you believe in this hypothetical question, but about the perspective of the individual who had an NDE with no 'hell' and no Jesus present.

To answer your question, I'm doing Option A all day, everyday. The teachings attributed to Jesus were NEVER about him walking around telling everyone that they need to love him and make him their personal savior as if he was an insecure, egotistical schoolgirl who was desperate for attention & acceptance. The teachings attributed to Jesus were about elevation & raising of one's level of consciousness (awareness) in order to be be able to discover the spirit WITHIN. That is why forgiveness, non-judgement, and unconditional love/acceptance were reinforced - these pave the way for that path and the process of trascending your fears and recognizing your own spiritual nature. Jesus was supposed to serve as an EXAMPLE for the path to follow. Isn't that why he was said to have told his disciples that they would do all these things he did and greater???

It was the church officials & emperors (who Jesus was said to oppose during his day) who twisted the teachings into the external-savior dogma that you see being reinforced today. This was designed to keep the masses stuck in the consciousness of the lower mind and focused on their physical nature/flesh as opposed to progressing to an understanding of their own spiritual nature. The christian gnostics were aligned with & practicing the true teachings and they were persecuted and eradicated for doing so because their knowledge/teachings threatened the control structure and authority of the church that sought to manipulate the masses through fear/threats and to profit from serving as the false, self-designated intermediary between the physical flesh & the divine.
calin

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05/19/2013 11:13 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

I never read or heard about NDE having to believe in a Jesus or avatar.
 Quoting: calin


If you only look at the postive NDEs, which are in nearly all books, than yes, you probably never heard of having to believe in Jesus. Seek out and study the hellish NDEs, this is where you'll find, that they learned that it was essential to accept Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


If that were so, then many more experiencers would have the same experience.

You are coming from a place where you WANT to believe that. You are having tunnel vision. Sorry to judge, but you are limiting your expression on beliefs of a one sided perspective.

Many NDEs speak of seeing their life experiences (life review) repeated so they and only they JUDGE themselves. They feel the emotional impact consciously from how the have treated others. No God or Jesus is there is admonish them. It is self experienced. They see things as just is. They then attach an emotional reaction to the experience to feel the pain or joy from others based on earthly presence. Just consciousness again as consciousness has an emotional component.

Again, the hellish NDE experiences are based on the person's conscious state and beliefs.

Do you have an example of a young child having a hellish experience? I have not heard of one. They are all based on their limited worldly experiences. Full of color, bright lights and heavenly type bodies giving them love and ease. They get that experience/frame of reference from the love of their mother, father, etc.
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
calin

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05/19/2013 11:15 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Who told you that you need to only share positive NDE's? Can you please document where I have ever said such a thing? I have instead repeatedly requested that you report the 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' of NDE accounts and then allow the readers to make up their own minds without your trying to encourage them to conform to your personal beliefs in the process. In what world do the phrases 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' not include the negative accounts?

huh

Regarding your post above - so if an individual had a 'positive' NDE and met their deceased family members, had a life review, and there was no Jesus present - what need would that individual have upon returning to convert to christianity??? Can you explain this for me? Are these accounts of somehow of less significance than the ones you report on?

In the conversations I have had with individuals who reported positive NDE's, they have returned only to stressthe importance of embracing unconditional love and forgiveness - not any requirement or necessity to adopt any particular religious faith or dogmatic belief system. They have reinforced universal messages of wisdom in the form of two principles that apply to all humans equally and that operate outside the confines of any one particular religious faith or belief system.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate??? We are not talking about what you believe in this hypothetical question, but about the perspective of the individual who had an NDE with no 'hell' and no Jesus present.

To answer your question, I'm doing Option A all day, everyday. The teachings attributed to Jesus were NEVER about him walking around telling everyone to love him and make him their personal savior as if he was an insecure, egotistical schoolgirl who was desperate for attention & acceptance. The teachings attributed to Jesus were about elevation of one's leve of consciousness to be able to recognize the spirit WITHIN. That is why forgiveness, non-judgement, and unconditional love/acceptance were reinforced - these pave the way for that path and the process of trascending your fears and recognizing your own spiritual nature. It was the church officials & emperors (who Jesus was said to oppose) who twisted the teachings into the external-savior dogma that you see being reinforced today. This served to keep individuals stuck in the consciousness of the lower mind and focused on the physical nature/flesh as opposed to progressing to an understanding of their own spiritual nature. The christian gnostics were aligned with & practicing the true teachings and they were persecuted and eradicated for doing so because their knowledge/teachings threatened the control structure of the church who sought to manipulate others through fear and to profit from serving as the false intermediary between the physical flesh & the divine.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Well said my friend!
hf
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
calin

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05/19/2013 11:25 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
And the Jesus seeing reports are usually that someone "thinks" it was Jesus.
 Quoting: calin


There's a little girl, while in heaven, was told by an angel, that they were leading her to Jesus.

So, she didn't merely think she was going to see Jesus, but was told, she would see Jesus.

So was this a hallucination?

No

Why?

In this same experience, she met a lot of the deceased. Learned of information from them, that was impossible to know, and that was previously unknown. After returning to her body, the information was researched and verified to be true.

Meaning she didn't merely imagine the whole experience, which also included seeing Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes! I believe that little girl experienced that.

But... but... where did she get the word Jesus? Who told her about Jesus? My point... she had a conscious knowing about Jesus from her parents, school, friends, etc. Otherwise she may have just saw her cat or dog... etc. Get what I mean?

She believed in Jesus to begin with. She understood what Jesus was about. Therefore, she manifested that experience in the state of NDE.

We have to have a frame of reference - such as teachings, experiences, etc. before we can consciously make such a connection.

Last Edited by calin on 05/19/2013 11:25 AM
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
calin

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05/19/2013 11:28 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
I have saved this thread to my favorites and will return! I like to see people engaging in this "mind walk".
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:28 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Who told you that you need to only share positive NDE's? Can you please document where I have ever said such a thing? I have instead repeatedly requested that you report the 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' of NDE accounts and then allow the readers to make up their own minds without your trying to encourage them to conform to your personal beliefs in the process. In what world do the phrases 'wide range' and 'full spectrum' not include the negative accounts?

huh

Regarding your post above - so if an individual had a 'positive' NDE and met their deceased family members, had a life review, and there was no Jesus present - what need would that individual have upon returning to convert to christianity??? Can you explain this for me? Are these accounts of somehow of less significance than the ones you report on?

In the conversations I have had with individuals who reported positive NDE's, they have returned only to stressthe importance of embracing unconditional love and forgiveness - not any requirement or necessity to adopt any particular religious faith or dogmatic belief system. They have reinforced universal messages of wisdom in the form of two principles that apply to all humans equally and that operate outside the confines of any one particular religious faith or belief system.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate???
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


I thought you had more common sense to deduce the answer.

In all my research, if I only came across and looked at the positive NDE's, which typically tells us that all we have to do is be loving, and not accept Jesus. Than I would also agree with you

But, as already stated this isn't not the case. All NDE's don't share this one and only message.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:33 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
And the Jesus seeing reports are usually that someone "thinks" it was Jesus.
 Quoting: calin


There's a little girl, while in heaven, was told by an angel, that they were leading her to Jesus.

So, she didn't merely think she was going to see Jesus, but was told, she would see Jesus.

So was this a hallucination?

No

Why?

In this same experience, she met a lot of the deceased. Learned of information from them, that was impossible to know, and that was previously unknown. After returning to her body, the information was researched and verified to be true.

Meaning she didn't merely imagine the whole experience, which also included seeing Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes! I believe that little girl experienced that.

But... but... where did she get the word Jesus? Who told her about Jesus? My point... she had a conscious knowing about Jesus from her parents, school, friends, etc. Otherwise she may have just saw her cat or dog... etc. Get what I mean?

She believed in Jesus to begin with. She understood what Jesus was about. Therefore, she manifested that experience in the state of NDE.

We have to have a frame of reference - such as teachings, experiences, etc. before we can consciously make such a connection.
 Quoting: calin


Your reasoning is faulty.

One level, you state, she manifested seeing Jesus, based on former beliefs.

So, if the experience was manifested, that means she would have also needed to manifest seeing the deceased in heaven.

Which again, as already stated, would have been impossible since she learned things that was impossible to know.

To state she manifested this, is like saying, I'm going to manifest the lottery number tonight, and tomorrow, and the day after this. And I'm going to win every lottery from now on, since I'll just manifest these numbers.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:36 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
OP`s goal:
Blah blah blah blah....and so. .....Jesus
Blah blah blah. ....therefore Jesus.
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05/19/2013 11:39 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
OP`s goal:
Blah blah blah blah....and so. .....Jesus
Blah blah blah. ....therefore Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40106553


I haven't seen a single Christian see Krishna, in their NDE, and then convert to Hinduism.

I have come across a Hindu, who saw Jesus, and then converted Christianity.
calin

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05/19/2013 11:41 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Let me repost this again.

Let me add, in the Bible, we're suppose to in general love God and our neighbors.

What I find in NDE's, is that these 2 points are again stressed.

For example, many people during their life reviews, learn one of the most important things to do in this life, is to be kind, helpful, and loving to everyone. They find that their fame and success on this Earth, means nothing in the afterlife.

Others during these NDEs, also learn it's essential to accept Jesus.


So, do you want to do one? Or, why do both?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate???
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


I thought you had more common sense to deduce the answer.

In all my research, if I only came across and looked at the positive NDE's, which typically tells us that all we have to do is be loving, and not accept Jesus. Than I would also agree with you

But, as already stated this isn't not the case. All NDE's don't share this one and only message.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

I have heard of NDEs evoking the name of Jesus... or crying out loud for Jesus to save them during hellish NDEs... and they then were released to a better place. Or, they changed their attitude upon return to the physical. Self learning and recognizing that love is a better state of consciousness was the experience therefore. The hellish state of consciousness was self imposed. Guilt... low self esteem, shame, etc. ie - low level of consciousness.

That to me implies that they realized they had negative emotional boundaries that they felt they consciously needed to escape. They released their self loathing - or other self inflicted admonishments - to free their souls from their self imposed prison and low self worth.

Again - all just a level of consciousness.

One should love themselves more and then in turn can love others. Christ consciousness... again. Not a belief in a Christ. Just the principles and level of consciousness.
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
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05/19/2013 11:42 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
When my mother was a child, she witnessed a neighbor woman dying. She did not believe in God and was vocal about it.

She said it was hot, then she started screaming that she was burning before she finally died.
calin

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05/19/2013 11:46 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
And the Jesus seeing reports are usually that someone "thinks" it was Jesus.
 Quoting: calin


There's a little girl, while in heaven, was told by an angel, that they were leading her to Jesus.

So, she didn't merely think she was going to see Jesus, but was told, she would see Jesus.

So was this a hallucination?

No

Why?

In this same experience, she met a lot of the deceased. Learned of information from them, that was impossible to know, and that was previously unknown. After returning to her body, the information was researched and verified to be true.

Meaning she didn't merely imagine the whole experience, which also included seeing Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes! I believe that little girl experienced that.

But... but... where did she get the word Jesus? Who told her about Jesus? My point... she had a conscious knowing about Jesus from her parents, school, friends, etc. Otherwise she may have just saw her cat or dog... etc. Get what I mean?

She believed in Jesus to begin with. She understood what Jesus was about. Therefore, she manifested that experience in the state of NDE.

We have to have a frame of reference - such as teachings, experiences, etc. before we can consciously make such a connection.
 Quoting: calin


Your reasoning is faulty.

One level, you state, she manifested seeing Jesus, based on former beliefs.

So, if the experience was manifested, that means she would have also needed to manifest seeing the deceased in heaven.

Which again, as already stated, would have been impossible since she learned things that was impossible to know.

To state she manifested this, is like saying, I'm going to manifest the lottery number tonight, and tomorrow, and the day after this. And I'm going to win every lottery from now on, since I'll just manifest these numbers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I guess you did not perceive anything as I intended of what I wrote in the previous messages.

No worries.

Her manifestation was of learned experience of Jesus as opposed to a dog or cat talking to her. This is a child's mind working ... the child will see things as they can accept it.

We see things as we accept it... believe it to be.
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
calin

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05/19/2013 11:47 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
When my mother was a child, she witnessed a neighbor woman dying. She did not believe in God and was vocal about it.

She said it was hot, then she started screaming that she was burning before she finally died.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39960284


A physical reaction.
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


Let me elaborate, the 2 primary messages I'm coming across, during the NDEs

1) We need to be kind, loving, helpful to all.

2) We also need to accept Jesus. This is learned by some NDErs, who experience hell.

So, do you

A) be kind and loving to all, and not accept Jesus

B) Accept Jesus, but not be kind to others

C) Do both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate???
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


I thought you had more common sense to deduce the answer.

In all my research, if I only came across and looked at the positive NDE's, which typically tells us that all we have to do is be loving, and not accept Jesus. Than I would also agree with you

But, as already stated this isn't not the case. All NDE's don't share this one and only message.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

That to me implies that they realized they had negative emotional boundaries that they felt they consciously needed to escape. They released their self loathing - or other self inflicted admonishments - to free their souls from their self imposed prison and low self worth.
 Quoting: calin


That's a good theory, but there are cases which shows this assumption is false.

There are some that end up in a hellish NDE, but still felt themselves to be a good person. So they were in a good emotional state, but still went there.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 11:50 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


There's a little girl, while in heaven, was told by an angel, that they were leading her to Jesus.

So, she didn't merely think she was going to see Jesus, but was told, she would see Jesus.

So was this a hallucination?

No

Why?

In this same experience, she met a lot of the deceased. Learned of information from them, that was impossible to know, and that was previously unknown. After returning to her body, the information was researched and verified to be true.

Meaning she didn't merely imagine the whole experience, which also included seeing Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes! I believe that little girl experienced that.

But... but... where did she get the word Jesus? Who told her about Jesus? My point... she had a conscious knowing about Jesus from her parents, school, friends, etc. Otherwise she may have just saw her cat or dog... etc. Get what I mean?

She believed in Jesus to begin with. She understood what Jesus was about. Therefore, she manifested that experience in the state of NDE.

We have to have a frame of reference - such as teachings, experiences, etc. before we can consciously make such a connection.
 Quoting: calin


Your reasoning is faulty.

One level, you state, she manifested seeing Jesus, based on former beliefs.

So, if the experience was manifested, that means she would have also needed to manifest seeing the deceased in heaven.

Which again, as already stated, would have been impossible since she learned things that was impossible to know.

To state she manifested this, is like saying, I'm going to manifest the lottery number tonight, and tomorrow, and the day after this. And I'm going to win every lottery from now on, since I'll just manifest these numbers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


I guess you did not perceive anything as I intended of what I wrote in the previous messages.

No worries.

Her manifestation was of learned experience of Jesus as opposed to a dog or cat talking to her. This is a child's mind working ... the child will see things as they can accept it.

We see things as we accept it... believe it to be.
 Quoting: calin


I clearly read and understood your message.

You evidently don't understand, that this little girl also saw deceased people. She learned information from them that was impossible to know about, but then proven to be true. This means that it was not merely manifested based on beliefs, since this was not part of her former beliefs, and was impossible for her to know about.

Her family, or friends, didn't tell the little girl this information about the deceased ahead of time.
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05/19/2013 11:54 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
When my mother was a child, she witnessed a neighbor woman dying. She did not believe in God and was vocal about it.

She said it was hot, then she started screaming that she was burning before she finally died.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39960284


A physical reaction.
 Quoting: calin


People shouldn't have this burning physical reaction prior to death.

Also this is probably more common than you think:

"I'm a surgical nurse at a hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. We have lots of near-death cases there, and almost all of them are the negative kind. You know what I mean --people who end up in HELL!" - Journal of Near-Death Studies Vol.10, No.3
calin

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05/19/2013 11:57 AM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


I asked you a specific question that you did not address. For a person who has a positive NDE with no Jesus present, why does that individual need to return and convert to christianity if their positive experience did not reinforce this mandate???
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


I thought you had more common sense to deduce the answer.

In all my research, if I only came across and looked at the positive NDE's, which typically tells us that all we have to do is be loving, and not accept Jesus. Than I would also agree with you

But, as already stated this isn't not the case. All NDE's don't share this one and only message.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

That to me implies that they realized they had negative emotional boundaries that they felt they consciously needed to escape. They released their self loathing - or other self inflicted admonishments - to free their souls from their self imposed prison and low self worth.
 Quoting: calin


That's a good theory, but there are cases which shows this assumption is false.

There are some that end up in a hellish NDE, but still felt themselves to be a good person. So they were in a good emotional state, but still went there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes... so true!

Question... did they believe in a heaven and hell? Did they believe that they had to confess their sins before dying?

Did they have deep feelings of guilt? Shame? And if so, would they consciously and verbally express those emotions? Are they buried so deep that they can't forgive themselves?

One can think and express that they are good, but do they truly feel they love themselves, are a value to humanity, have compassion for others and themselves? Do they self inflict negative feeling on themselves for their actions, behaviors, etc.?? We are harder on ourselves than on others at times.

We really don't know much about this person you are speaking about? Is this person honest wit themselves?

Too many scenarios to take that as fact. But.... good point and I know about these cases. Doesn't make the assumption as you say false.

hf
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2013 12:02 PM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
God has "messaged" me a number of times, but not for a long time. I never really bring it up, except others who have had the same experiences. We mutually know what happened was real.

A very good friend of mine is cardiac surgeon and devout atheist but that changed when his best friend and fellow surgen had a NDE at the hospital they both worked at.

I don't know why God messaged/spoke to me as opposed to anyone else walking around. I have come to see that when God speaks to someone, it is in a way that unique to them..... so that they will know it to be 100% real.
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05/19/2013 12:04 PM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
...


I thought you had more common sense to deduce the answer.

In all my research, if I only came across and looked at the positive NDE's, which typically tells us that all we have to do is be loving, and not accept Jesus. Than I would also agree with you

But, as already stated this isn't not the case. All NDE's don't share this one and only message.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559

That to me implies that they realized they had negative emotional boundaries that they felt they consciously needed to escape. They released their self loathing - or other self inflicted admonishments - to free their souls from their self imposed prison and low self worth.
 Quoting: calin


That's a good theory, but there are cases which shows this assumption is false.

There are some that end up in a hellish NDE, but still felt themselves to be a good person. So they were in a good emotional state, but still went there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


Ah yes... so true!

Question... did they believe in a heaven and hell? Did they believe that they had to confess their sins before dying?

Did they have deep feelings of guilt? Shame? And if so, would they consciously and verbally express those emotions? Are they buried so deep that they can't forgive themselves?

One can think and express that they are good, but do they truly feel they love themselves, are a value to humanity, have compassion for others and themselves? Do they self inflict negative feeling on themselves for their actions, behaviors, etc.?? We are harder on ourselves than on others at times.

We really don't know much about this person you are speaking about? Is this person honest wit themselves?

Too many scenarios to take that as fact. But.... good point and I know about these cases. Doesn't make the assumption as you say false.

hf
 Quoting: calin


All your questions, make it seem like a person can merely manifest the experience based on beliefs, expectations, emotional state, etc.

To me your comparing the NDE state, to a dream. Since in a dream, these factors, can create the experience.

But again, the most important piece, is during the NDE, when they learned of information, that was impossible to know about, but later proven to be true. This shows, it was impossible to have merely manifest based on beliefs, imaginations, emotional state, etc. If this didn't occur, I would also have a very similar viewpoint as you, assuming this may merely be a product of the mind.
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
God has "messaged" me a number of times, but not for a long time. I never really bring it up, except others who have had the same experiences. We mutually know what happened was real.

A very good friend of mine is cardiac surgeon and devout atheist but that changed when his best friend and fellow surgen had a NDE at the hospital they both worked at.

I don't know why God messaged/spoke to me as opposed to anyone else walking around. I have come to see that when God speaks to someone, it is in a way that unique to them..... so that they will know it to be 100% real.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31781957


Sounds fascinating, would love to hear all about it.
calin

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05/19/2013 12:05 PM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
When my mother was a child, she witnessed a neighbor woman dying. She did not believe in God and was vocal about it.

She said it was hot, then she started screaming that she was burning before she finally died.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39960284


A physical reaction.
 Quoting: calin


People shouldn't have this burning physical reaction prior to death.

Also this is probably more common than you think:

"I'm a surgical nurse at a hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. We have lots of near-death cases there, and almost all of them are the negative kind. You know what I mean --people who end up in HELL!" - Journal of Near-Death Studies Vol.10, No.3
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


You are a fun one! haha...But I do have to leave to get on with my day.

Physical feelings can be attributed to a person dying. I mean really physical. Just as people feel cold when they are in shock.

At the time of dying in your example...the person was not brain dead. I thought we were speaking of brain dead...legally dead people with NDEs.

About this from your quote.... people who end up in HELL! This gave me a chuckle! How does this nurse know they went to hell? That is too funny. Do we know that they are clinically dead? Was this an observation? Was this a real clinical study she did? Did she perceive their experience as such? Hardly scientific. Saying such a thing does not make it true.
..............................
When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
..................................
THE SECOND AGREEMENT: "Don't take anything personally. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering." ~ Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements
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05/19/2013 12:08 PM
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Re: Why NDEs are more than hallucinations, and connecting the dots revealing a single coherent reality
When my mother was a child, she witnessed a neighbor woman dying. She did not believe in God and was vocal about it.

She said it was hot, then she started screaming that she was burning before she finally died.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39960284


A physical reaction.
 Quoting: calin


People shouldn't have this burning physical reaction prior to death.

Also this is probably more common than you think:

"I'm a surgical nurse at a hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. We have lots of near-death cases there, and almost all of them are the negative kind. You know what I mean --people who end up in HELL!" - Journal of Near-Death Studies Vol.10, No.3
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33814559


You are a fun one! haha...But I do have to leave to get on with my day.

Physical feelings can be attributed to a person dying. I mean really physical. Just as people feel cold when they are in shock.

At the time of dying in your example...the person was not brain dead. I thought we were speaking of brain dead...legally dead people with NDEs.

About this from your quote.... people who end up in HELL! This gave me a chuckle! How does this nurse know they went to hell? That is too funny. Do we know that they are clinically dead? Was this an observation? Was this a real clinical study she did? Did she perceive their experience as such? Hardly scientific. Saying such a thing does not make it true.
 Quoting: calin


A physical feeling of being 'burned'?

Anyways I enjoyed your positive energy.

hf





GLP