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Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity

 
buddha bloke
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11/07/2004 01:00 PM
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Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
There is a story in the New Testament, (in John´s Gospel) that depicts this "fear/guilt situation", it is about Nicodemous.
He was a highly religious man, a member in the Pharisees religious echelons at the time of Jesus. He heard about Jesus and he too like many Christians today, walked undercover in the shadows of anonymity to hear about the freedom and love that Jesus
represented himself. In fact, this guilty and frightened Nicodemous was brave enough to break through the suppression of the
church then, and meet jesus. In fact he visited Jesus twice (according to the Gospel of John) and he was the one that
brought spices to embalm Jesus` body when he was buried. This was a real gesture of his love and care.
So here we have a typical example of fear and guilt, yet enough awareness and desire to be part of love and freedom.
I hope you too will find your own love and freedom in this lifetime and perhaps after reading this article, it may give you the courage and understanding to think about releasing the blockages in experiencing your true self.

Early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Could it be that the emperor had felt that the concept of reincarnation was threatening to the stability of the empire? Citizens who believed that they would have another chance to live might be less obedient and law abiding than those who believed in a single Judgement Day for all?
In the 6th century, in the year 553 A. D., the 2nd Council of Constantinople officially declared reincarnation a heresy and the doctrine of reincarnation was officially banished by the Christian Church. It was banished for no other reason than it was considered to be too much of an influence from the East. The decision was intended to enable the church to increase its power at that time, and to tighten its hold upon the human mind by telling people their salvation had to be accomplished in one incarnation and one lifetime, and if they didn´t make it, they would go to Hell. It would appear that the Church like Constantine was afraid that the idea of `past lives` would weaken and undermine the Church`s growing power and influence by affording followers too much time to seek salvation? During the same Early Christian Era leading up to the Council of Constantinople, notable Church fathers like Origen, Clement of Alexander and St. Jerome accepted and believed in the reincarnation principle. So did the Gnostics and the Christian Cathars of Italy and Southern France and they were severely brutalized for their belief in reincarnation as late as the 12th century!
I say that the repression of past life teachings has been political and not spiritual?

However, the human mind today is beginning to unfold in such a way that this simplistic viewpoint (the Christian Church`s view) no longer makes sense to many people. Still, there are many who depend on this idea for their devotional support and for a feeling of comfort and indeed I respect this - it is their journey after all

Aside of the history, the surprising thing is that there is actually a considerable amount of evidence for reincarnation in the Bible we are left with and generally speaking - people are unaware that there are definite references in the New Testament that unequivocally imply reincarnation. Not that the word itself is used; you have to dig a little. But once you understand what reincarnation is about, you can see quite a few references supporting the idea that after people die they will come back to this Earth if they are not ready to move on permanently to the heavenly realms.
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Themes of rebirth are both ancient and profound, stretching backward and inward as far as mind and heart can intuit. They are suggested by primordial images like the Ouroboros (the serpent whose tail is in its mouth) and the Phoenix fire bird who rises from the ashes of its own funeral pyre. They are recalled in ancient stories of the Hindus by the Dance of Siva and the dreams of Vishnu, in the Sumerian descent of Inanna, the Egyptian imagery of the death and rebirth of Osiris, and the Christian story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

In most of the world´s religious mythologies, death is not seen as the final end, a total annihilation, but as part of an ongoing cycle. Though most Christians reject the idea of reincarnation, traces of it can still be discerned in the notion of physical resurrection. It seems impossible to discover any clear-cut, unambiguous Christian doctrine to explain what death is or what happens after death -- what is available does not contradict the idea of reincarnation. In fact, there are Christian scriptures that are in essential harmony with the vision of man as a reincarnating being. After all, it was a common enough belief in Jesus´ time and was understood by many of the people who influenced Christian thinking 2,000 years ago.

Reincarnational ideas are found in the ancient religion of the Jews -- the temples were even polytheistic until sometime between the 8th and 6th centuries BC -- and were a part of the education of the early church fathers. Most bishops of the early church were pagan by birth and education; many held two services, one in the church and one at the shrine of Serapis. They had political and social as well as ecclesiastical duties, so sacrifices and sacraments were all in a day´s work. Though they were kept alive in the Orient, ideas concerning reincarnation were suppressed in the West until they were reborn in the Middle Ages and again during the Renaissance. We are again seeing their rebirth in the popular Western consciousness.

It is tempting to dismiss the past as irrelevant; we tend to feel ourselves linked to history and its truths linearly -- the further away we are from an event, the fainter its effects and the less its influence. While we look at our life as if it were a straight line -- the longer we live the longer the line -- the ancients saw it more as a circle which expands, stressing the interconnectedness of life and acknowledging the immediacy of all experience. They pulsed to the seasons, not to clocks. We are usually out of touch with this kind of perception; we construct convenient but arbitrary boundaries and call them beginnings and endings, births and deaths. We can appreciate a more holistic perception of time as eternally renewing cycles rather than as signals which progressively degrade the further they get from their source. Events are no less true or powerful, have no less integrity, for being yesterday´s events. Christian scriptures seem to reflect this shift in consciousness from the cyclical to the linear, from an interconnected, dynamic yet sacred universe to solitary, disconnected, disenfranchised Man who is only an image of deity.

Whether or not Christianity caused this turnabout is hard to determine; what is known is that at the time there was a deep fear or belief that the world was about to end. As late as the 2nd or 3rd century AD people in the fertile crescent literally expected the violent finish of the planet. Jesus was said to have come in the fullness of time to inaugurate the "last time"; he prophesied Judgment Day and great tribulation complete with wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, betrayals, false prophets and more (Luke 21:8-28). Perhaps the horror of the anticipated apocalypse mirrored or in some way influenced the shift in perception from a symbolical one to a more exoteric or literal one. Not that the death of our planet is an impossibility; as the concept of reembodiment applies to all beings, it applies to planets and suns. The possibility of universal conflagration was not absurd, just untimely.

In the words of American novelist Tom Robbins, many folks have difficulty imagining "God just stomping on the brakes one day and sending the world flying through the windshield" (Skinny Legs and All, 1991, p. 302) -- so an alternative explanation must be found. The Church might say that by coming, Jesus inaugurated the Piscean Age. But we could also say that the Piscean cycle was about to begin and Jesus came because of that; there was a feeling in the people who were sensitive to the natural timing of things, that something (the old Aries cycle) was dying. Jesus described the end of an age (aion); Christians took it literally to mean the end of the world. Fear often collapses vision; we may expect to see more of the same as our own century comes to a close.

Many ideas compatible with reincarnation appear in the Bible. Reincarnation assumes that we are immortal beings. Jesus speaking to the Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem said, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34). Reincarnation also presupposes we are bound by karmic laws. Biblical scriptures tell us that those who live by the sword die by the sword (Matt 26:52) and that we will reap what we sow (Gal 6:7). Paul taught that each seed gets its own body (1 Cor 15:38). Our thoughts are seeds, and our actions are seeds for more actions -- it could take countless eons for them to come to fruition, to get their own bodies -- and it could take many rebirths to work out all the effects of causes we set in motion.

Cycles are the mainspring in the reincarnational clock; reincarnation suggests recurring cycles. Despite the millenarian theme there are scriptures that preserve an understanding of these cycles: "Unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again" (Eccl 1:7); "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; . . . and there is no new thing under the sun" (Eccl 1:9); "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" (Eccl 3:15); "No man ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven" (John 3:13).

Too literal an interpretation makes no sense. Some churches have contended that God creates each soul brand new, but this seems at odds with Scripture. If there is nothing new, then we could have been here before, and if we´ve been here before, we could come again, and again and again. As the poet Blake said, "the Pangs of Eternal birth are better than the Pangs of Eternal death" ("Vala, or the Four Zoas," ix, line 742; The Complete Writings of William Blake, ed. Geoffrey Keynes, p. 377).

The Bible is full of examples that demonstrate a much larger picture of life than just one earthly existence. The prophets were thought to journey through life and back again, but it is unclear where they went in between: the priests asked John the Baptist if he was Elias (John 1: 2 1); Elijah is prophesied to come before Judgment Day (Mal 4:5) -- where was Elijah when God spoke these words? Herod thinks Jesus is John the Baptist (Matt 14:1-2); and his disciples acknowledge that men considered Jesus to be either John the Baptist, Jeremias, or Elias (Matt 16:14).

Other examples that push at the boundaries of the idea of only one earthly life are verses that describe preexistence, a subject that was taught in the early church. The prophet Jeremiah says God knew him before he was born (Jer 1:5); Solomon, son of David, says that he existed before the earth or heavens (Prov 8:2 2-30); Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

In addition to the reincarnation of the prophets and the statements about preexistence, there are demonstrations of people being raised from the dead. Elijah revived a young boy (1 Kings 17:22), Jesus revived a daughter of one of the rulers (Matt 9:18-25) as well as Lazarus who had been in the grave for 4 days (John 11:44). After Jesus died, "Many bodies of the saints which slept, arose and came out of the graves (Matt 27:52-3). Peter preached to the dead (1 Pet 4:6) and many churches have prayers for the dead. The dead are thought to go to heaven, hell, or purgatory, or alternatively to sleep till judgment Day. Clearly death represents some kind of state, but modern-day Christianity does not recognize time spent after death as existence. One wonders what is the point of these stories if not to show the impermanence of death?

It seems paradoxical that a modern tradition could espouse a full physical, once-and-for-all bodily resurrection and find reincarnation unacceptable. The rejection seems to originate in the deep concern that the soul should get its own body, not someone else´s (here the word soul includes the idea of spirit). Christianity teaches that body and soul belong to each other -- which seems just another way of expressing the intimate bonds of karmic connections.

The Gospels give examples of the body and soul separated before birth and after death, demonstrating that the soul must be able to exist without the body. What then is the mechanism for the informing soul to find its body or to re-collect its physical building blocks? We know nature is the great recycler and that we´ve all shared in the use of the same physical atoms over and over again. How can any set of atoms belong exclusively to a specific soul? Where would they go awaiting Judgment Day?

Considering the billions of life-atoms created and sloughed off in a lifetime -- we are said to be practically new every seven years -- then at the time of resurrection, only some of them could be reunited with the soul. This is not so different from the idea that when we reincarnate we re-gather our own life-atoms to us, those that had helped make our former bodies; we attract them back karmically. It isn´t as if reincarnationists believe there are extra bodies lying around and when the time comes to be born they might not get the right one -- do butterflies worry they´ll get the wrong caterpillar?

Paradoxes abound; on the one hand we are given to understand that modern-day Christianity teaches only one life, only one throw of the dice which will determine an eternity of pleasure or pain, but on the other hand we are told that God is loving, wise, and just. Even the most devout fundamentalist believes in more than one chance. Jesus says to forgive not seven times, but, "Until seventy times seven" (Matt 18:2 1-2).

The principles of reincarnation go far beyond the mere mechanics of physical bodies. There are exoteric and esoteric laws, physical and spiritual rebirths. Could Jesus have been speaking about both kinds when he stated, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3)?

The idea of spiritual rebirth was an ancient tradition in India; long before Jesus, initiates were called "twice-born" or dvija. Initiation into the Mysteries was considered a birth into a new life and the candidate took a new name, just as monks and nuns do today when taking the order or veil. H. P. Blavatsky suggests a way of understanding this inner process of rebirth when she explains that the task is for each of us to resurrect the spirit crucified in us by our own terrestrial passions, a spirit we have buried deep in the sepulcher of our own flesh, he who has the strength to roll back the stone of matter from the door of his own inner sanctuary, he has the risen Christ in him (cf. H. P. Blavatsky, "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels -- I", Studies in Occultism, Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, 1973, p. 134).

One can´t really prove (or disprove) reincarnation -- we aren´t going to catch ourselves reincarnating any more than our waking consciousness can quite catch our sleeping consciousness. Whether the promise of eternal life (mentioned 28 times in the Bible) is literal or figurative, or whether one believes in reincarnation or resurrection (the latter mentioned 41 times), if we live as if our every thought and action lived forever, we meet the challenge of all religions, ancient and modern.

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19.47  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
it is not reincarnation. it is called resurrection. and a person will come back as who they were with their memories during Christ´s thousand year reign to learn the truth of the Bible that they may or may not have learned in their lifetime. They will accept or not. If they don´t accept they will go back to ashes and unconsciousness with no hope of an resurrection. it is called the second death in the Bible. Jesus performed resurrections to show what he is going to do on a permanent basis during his reign as king.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
They keep getting born again and again and again because they never learn from their mistakes...
Fathom  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Good article, but it lost me when it came to the occultist Blavatsky and her insipid balderdash which heavily inspired Freemasonry and even Hitler.

I don´t think the term "born again" necessarily pertains to reincarnation, it is a more of a change of heart or regeneration of within "from above" then a literal repititious cycle of rebirth in this frequency level.
O-Ren  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Excellent post, BB!


Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: *YAWN*

I see you sporting this line on every thread you go to 1947, is this REALLY all you got?
Anomalous Howard  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Buddha, I´d bet you like this song..

A National Acrobat

I am the world that hides
The universal secret of all time
Destruction of the empty spaces
Is my one and only crime
I´ve lived a thousand times
I found out what it means to be believed
The thoughts and images
The unborn child that never was conceived
When little worlds collide
I´m trapped inside my embryonic cell
And flashing memories
Are cast into the never ending well
The name that scorns the face
The child that never sees the cause of man
The deathly darkness that
Belies the fate of those who never ran
Well I know its hard for you
To know the reason why
And I know you´ll understand
More when it´s time to die
Don´t believe the life you have
Will be the only one
You have to let your body sleep
To let your soul live on
I want you to listen
I´m trying to get through
Love has given life to you
And now it´s your concern
Unseen eyes of inner life
Will make your soul return
Still I look but not to touch
The seeds of life are sown
Curtain of the future falls
The secret stays unknown
Just remember love is life
And hate is living death
Treat your life for what it´s worth
And live for every breath
Looking back I´ve lived and learned
But now I´m wondering
Here I wait and only guess
What this next life will bring
Eat a Bullet  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Do you have any idea how many religions are in the World ?

And you think you have all the answers .

You arrogant Morons .


Your whats wrong with the World !
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


yeah you die once. then you get your life review (judgement) and then you do it all over again.

anyhow. those are paul´s words in hebrews. paul´s a moron.
Pamelot  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
(2) And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
(3) Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I never could figure out how the disciples could even be asking such a silly question, as if there were a possibility that an pre-born infant´s sin could have resulted in his being born blind.

Once I learned that reincarnation is real, it makes sense.
nolo  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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***Early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted***

1. What were these ´references´?

2. Proof that anything was deleted.

3. Proof that the ´deleted´ references were ever a part of the New Testament.
Anomalous Howard  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Don´t know about any reincarnation parts, but the missing parts are easy.

Why don´t you prove there was nothing deleted?
might be easier.
19.47  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
O-Ren,

´I see you sporting this line on every thread you go to 1947, is this REALLY all you got?´

I (as much as any human can) try to stay with the truth and if it sounds like a record stuck in a groove to you, then so be it.

ac 1:37 Quote your sources...if you can.
autoimmune  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Hi, Buddha. You know my feelings about articles based on faulty research, so . . .

>>In the 6th century, in the year 553 A. D., the 2nd Council of Constantinople officially declared reincarnation a heresy and the doctrine of reincarnation was officially banished by the Christian Church.<<

This fallacy began with Shirley MacLaine’s book _Out on a Limb_ (pp 234-35).

Problem is, there was no Council of Nicaea in A.D. 553 :)

The two ecumenical councils of Nicaea took place in 325 and 787 AD, and neither of them dealt with reincarnation.

The council she may be referring to is the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople of 553, but, again, the subject of reincarnation was not addressed at this meeting either. None of the early councils did.

The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was in condemning Origen’s idea of the pre-existence of souls before birth (one body, one soul that exists before creation of the body), which is not the same as reincarnation (one soul transmigrating through many bodies). [1]

In fact, a great deal of Origen’s work is AGAINST reincarnation, including the text taken out of context from _Against Celsius_ that reincarnationists use to say he favored the idea:

“Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions?”

Problem here is that most arguing the case you make leave out the qualifying statement in parenthesis where Origen identifies that he is arguing on the basis of Celsus´s beliefs, not his own [2].

>>During the same Early Christian Era leading up to the Council of Constantinople, notable Church fathers like Origen, Clement of Alexander and St. Jerome accepted and believed in the reincarnation principle.<<

The article offers no proof of these claims—because there is no foundation in fact for the idea, even though it is passed along in “new Age” circles as “gospel truth.”

These Church Fathers ALL spoke AGAINST reincarnation. I can quote their original works if you like, and will do so in another post if requested, but it would be long. But, trust me, they all came out against the very thing people now try to say they believe.

The simple truth is that Resurrection is the antithesis of reincarnation and THAT is the reason texts promoting the eastern philosophical ideas were never considered to be part of Scripture. It wasn’t an elimination of what Christians held true, but a refusal to incorporate anything into Scripture that did not match what the believing Church held true already. The fact that millions of Christians went to their martyrdom during the first four centuries based on their belief that they would be resurrected—soul AND body—is all the proof one ever need offer to counter the specious claims that the early church believed in reincarnation.

I´ve included references to the sites I used in compiling this reply. More detailed info can be found at there:

[1] [link to www.catholic.com]

[2] [link to www.issuesetc.org]
REINCARNATION- Did The Church Suppress It?
by Joseph P. Gudel, Robert M. Bowman, Jr., and Dan R. Schlesinger


pax,
--autoimmune
Seneca  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
I agree with Autoimmune.

flower
idol harobed  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Reincarnation is an elightening concept incompatible with the control structure imposed by the Church, so it was simply transformed into the cloudy concept of resurrection.

Who believes you are an immortal being fear nothing.
Seneca  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Idol,

Let me first preface this statement by saying I am using only the same standard as you and Duncan, et al., make use of in debunking multiple woo-woo theories, and in reference to the same scientific community to which you often refer, however wrong I think said scientific community may be on other issues, and despite the fact that autoimmune and I are up to this point only arguing against reincarnation purely on a historical and theological viewpoint. It seems ironic to me that on this issue you are playing the woo-woo, and I am the debunker. In other words, the scientific community to which you pay homage would be on my side on the issue of reincarnation, and against you.
autoimmune  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Idol, no church can "control" a person to the point of accepting martyrdom, imo. Only the deepest trust that the body will rise again allows one to give up this body. How else can we explain millions over 4 centuries overcoming the natural instinct for self-preservation?

The church didn´t have to cloud over anything. The people themselves believed in--no, trusted resurrection. They gave up their bodies because they knew they would recieve them back again in a glorified form that could then never again die.

Quite a bit different than their consciousness continuing in different bodies through many lifetimes, which is a little harder to die for, imo . . . compared to resurrection, which rests on the belief that the human person is a UNIQUE, one-time only combination of mind, soul AND body . . . and ALL components of that person, including the body that is uniquely theirs, will live forever.

-----

Hi, Seneca. Thanks for the flower. What a pleasant Sunday present!

pax,
--autoimmune
Black  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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i got a quick answer that will ensure you can find out if reincarnation is real or not.

go walk in front of a bus. j/k

you will find out soon enough what the answer is. and these debates will be put to rest.

me, i don´t know for sure, nor do i really worry about it. but having read enough NDE experiences and whatnot. i´d say there is a pretty good chance reincarnation is real to some extent.

when i was in the womb i didn´t worry about this life. i just did my thing. if this life is like another womb. why should i worry about what college i´m going to in the next life?

just be
being is all there is.

Bog will sort the details out. whoever whatever whenever wherever it/she/he/ wants.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCFUCKKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK
mystery  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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IT would appear to be true in the space time reality.

The Ultimate Truth however is that all existance is happening at once in a non linear fashion.

Glimpses of those other realties are starting to bleed through for me at his time.

Have you not noticed this?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
John 9:1-3 reads: “Now as he was passing along he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him: ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered: ‘Neither this man sinned nor his parents, but it was in order that the works of God might be made manifest in his case.’” Can these verses be rightly used to indicate either prehuman existence or predestination?



Mormons make use of this text in an endeavor to prove prehuman existence, saying that the mere asking of the question by Christ’s disciples shows that they believed it possible for the man to have sinned before birth, in order for him to be punished for those sins by being born blind. These disciples had not been following Jesus very long, and doubtless they had not been completely cleansed of all false religious doctrine by the waters of truth. In this instance, their question undoubtedly reflected their contamination by the pagan teaching of the transmigration of souls, with its view that sins in previous lives determined the kind or condition of the bodies of future reincarnations of a transmigrating, immortal soul.

This pagan teaching of the Greek philosopher Pythagoras could very easily have contaminated these Jewish disciples of Jesus, for a resemblance of it was taught by the Jewish Pharisees. On this point Josephus says: “They also believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again.” Also, “They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment.”—Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, chapter I, ¶3; Wars of the Jews, Book II, chapter VIII, ¶14.

The premise of the question, that the man might have been able to sin before his birth, is unscriptural. The Bible rules out any possible sinning before birth when it says concerning Esau and Jacob: “When they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile.” (Rom. 9:11) Jesus corroborated this view in his reply, saying the man had not sinned in any way before birth. For that matter, Jesus also showed that the parents had not sinned in the sense of doing anything wrong that resulted in their babe’s being born blind.

All physical imperfections, and certainly blindness from birth is one such, are due to inherited condemnation because of Adamic sin. Imperfect creatures could produce only imperfect offspring. (Ps. 51:5; Matt. 7:16-20; Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 15:22) Not all calamities befall persons because of some sin they have committed. (Eccl. 9:11; Luke 13:1-5) Yet the Jews of Jesus’ day often thought so. Job was a special target of Satan, but his critics contended his troubles were not due to his integrity but traceable to his sins: “Recall now—who ever perished that was innocent? Or where were the upright cut off? As I have seen, those who plow guilt and sow sorrow reap it.”—Job 1:8-12; 2:3-9; 4:7, 8.

There are some who believe in predestination that use this text to argue that the man’s blindness was ordained by God, in order that through it he would come in contact with Jesus, learn of him, follow him, and thus be brought to the salvation predestined for him before the foundation of the world. They argue thus in view of Jesus’ reply: “It was in order that the works of God might be made manifest in his case.” By these words Jesus was not meaning to set aside or make void the scriptures cited in the previous paragraph that show the cause of such imperfections to be inherited sin from the time of Adam.

This case of blindness due to imperfection served as an opportunity to make manifest the works of God, make them manifest to those observing the miraculous cure and also to the man cured. It caused him to become a follower of Christ. (John 9:38) Yet so far as making manifest the works of God, this case was no different from others where the blind saw, the lame walked, the lepers were cleansed, the deaf heard and the dead were raised. All such cases made manifest the works of God, fulfilled prophecy, and were signs that confirmed Jesus as the Christ or Messiah. (Isa. 53:4; Matt. 8:16, 17; 11:2-6)

But what real praise would it be to God to make a man blind so that he could heal him later on? Rather than praiseworthy, that would be only the long-delayed righting of a wrong previously committed. It would be as hypocritical as one who sets up a straw man and then in a vain display knocks it down. No, Almighty God, whose work is perfect, would not intervene to make anything as imperfect as a blind babe.—Deut. 32:4.

Even if he did, it would not be a case of predestination, as that doctrine is defined by its foremost proponents, the Presbyterians. Whether the man could see or not is immaterial to predestination. Predestination strictly relates to final destiny, not to any events or conditions during earthly life. Nor will it do to say the blindness was predestinated in order to bring the man in contact with Jesus, that he might be healed by him and thereafter learn about Christ and follow him and ultimately gain salvation.

It cannot be said that the blindness was the means of setting in motion the chain of events that would lead the man to his predestined salvation. This would imply that God foreknew the chain of events and set the stage for its occurrence by ordaining the man’s birth as a blind babe, all to the end of making the divine predestination work out correctly.

But such a view of matters does not mesh with the definition of the doctrine, for its supporters are definite in their contention that the predestination is completely independent of any foreknown or prearranged works or circumstances or conditions or moving causes. So the blindness could not be a condition or cause moving the man toward his destiny, as they say it comes “without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto”.—“Confession of Faith,” chapter III, section 5, as found on page 16 of The Constitution of the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America.

Hence John 9:1-3 cannot be successfully used to prove either prehuman existence or predestination.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Does the Bible’s teaching about the soul and death allow for reincarnation?

Genesis 2:7 states: “ God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” Notice that the man himself was the soul; the soul was not immaterial, separate and distinct from the body. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezek. 18:4, 20) And a deceased person is referred to as a “dead soul.” (Num. 6:6) At death, “his spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (Ps. 146:4) So when someone dies, the complete person is dead; there is nothing that remains alive and that could pass into another body.

Eccl. 3:19: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies.” (As in the case of humans, nothing survives at the death of an animal. There is nothing that can experience rebirth in another body.)

Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” (It is not into another body but into Sheol, the common grave of mankind, that the dead go.)
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
You should know scum when you see it Willie O´Really, being your king of the scum and all.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
How much of a difference is there between reincarnation and the hope held out in the Bible?

Reincarnation: According to this belief, when a person dies, the soul, the “real self,” passes on to a better existence if the individual has lived a good and proper life, but possibly to existence as an animal if his record has been more bad than good. Each rebirth, it is believed, brings the individual back into this same system of things, where he will face further suffering and eventual death. The cycles of rebirth are viewed as virtually endless. Is such a future really what awaits you? Some believe that the only way of escape is by extinguishing all desire for things pleasing to the senses. To what do they escape? To what some describe as unconscious life.

Bible: According to the Bible, the soul is the complete person. Even though a person may have done bad things in the past, if he repents and changes his ways, God will forgive him. (Ps. 103:12, 13) When a person dies, nothing survives. Death is like a deep, dreamless sleep. There will be a resurrection of the dead. This is not a reincarnation but a bringing back to life of the same personality. (Acts 24:15) For most people, the resurrection will be to life on earth. It will take place after God brings the present wicked system to its end. Sickness, suffering, even the necessity to die, will become things of the past. (Dan. 2:44; Rev. 21:3, 4)
autoimmune  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
>>i got a quick answer that will ensure you can find out if reincarnation is real or not.

go walk in front of a bus. j/k<<

LOL! Got to admit, Black, you and I think alike. No one can know with certainty until we die and few of us want to hurry the process :)

Still, this was the very thing I tried to point out to Idol. Millions of early Christians DID walk in front of that bus because they believed so strongly they would rise again bodily. They could have sprinkled incense to Caesar, denied their Christianity (there were losts of _lapsi_ by the 4th century, as a matter of fact, those who did exactly that), and somehow avoided their own deaths.

As Tertullian said, "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christianity."

Wasn´t words written in books or clerics seeking to subvert opposing views that made the early church grow so amazingly . . . none of that would have convinced the Roman/Greek world to convert . . . but the fact that so many seemed impervious even to death--and, even more importantly, forgave the people who killed them.

Not sure how many of us today would die for either belief, so you make an excellent point that can be used on both sides of the discussion.

pax,
--autoimmune
O-Ren  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Why would I want to read anything akin to a comic book such as the bible ´willie´?

You are a poster boy for good christians ain´t ya, you worthless fuck wad.

Go crawl back under your rock, you know nothing piece of shit.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Thank you Budda bloke,

I saved that on my hard drive.

Above poster. Is (Acts 24:15) the only scripture you have that validates your belief?

Thanks
trista  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
Reincarnation, resurrection...

"and in the end
the love you take
is equal to the love
you make."
buddha bloke  (OP)

12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
wow.. you jive turkeys are so flyluv keep on rappin.. ill be back later to read an chat.. AUTO:) yay :flower:(just the person i was lookin for, heheh).. LOL black.. fathom.. we have much to discuss;) stoner.....LOL willie worship.. and to all the rest.. keep up the good work:).. ciao :ratdance:
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:18 AM
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Re: Born again... and again and again: Reincarnation in Christianity
You know yer a Redneck if ....

....you´ve been born-agin 6 times and are lookin´ forward to several more.





GLP