Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,521 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 511,829
Pageviews Today: 1,046,822Threads Today: 491Posts Today: 10,996
05:12 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:03 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
This is based on a teaching from Irvin Baxter at End Time Ministries. see links and vids to follow for more of Irvin Baxter's teachings. all good stuff in my opinion.

Note: This topic is not a salvation issue. The most important thing is to be ready and stay ready. It is not a reason to divide and argue.

When will the Rapture happen?
The Rapture will happen immediately after the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto him, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

Wheat and Tares
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Rev 14:14-20
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of manb with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

Rev 19:7-21
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.




Pre-Trib Argument #1:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not appointed us to wrath...

(For pre-tribbers, this scripture indicates that the church will not experience God's wrath during the tribulation.)


Post-Trib Response:
It's obvious that God is not going to pour out His wrath on His church. God's not going to beat His bride before He marries her. The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. It is the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God is poured out right at the end of the Great Tribulation and right at the time of the Battle of Armaggedon.


Rev 12:7

Rev 12:12
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down upon you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.

He will 3.5 yrs left...

So, Satan is comes down, launches the Great Tribulation, and the full brunt of it will come upon the "woman with 12 stars above her head" - Israel and also the disciples of Christ. He will persecute the "woman" for time, times and half a time (the Great Trib is 3.5 yrs in length - not 7).

The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan for 3.5 yrs.
The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is described in Revelation chap. 16. These are the vials that will be coming down against the armies that will be coming against Israel at the time of the Battle of Armaggedon.

Remember: The Great Tribulation is Satan making war against the saints.


Pre-Trib Argument #2:

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Pre-Tribbers think that "he" which restrains is the church and that the restraining influence of the church must be removed at the rapture before the Antichrist can come to power.


Post-Trib Response:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
The rapture cannot happen until the falling away comes and Antichrist is revealed. The church is NOT the restrainer.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 explains what the restrainer is.
And now you know what withholdeth that the antichrist might be revealed in his time.


---This is where Irvin and I differ in opinion---

Irvin thinks the "restrainer" is the timeline or God's clock. In other words, the restrainer is God letting time pass until the right moment for these two things to happen; the falling away and the revealing of the antichrist. The antichrist cannot come until it is TIME for him to come.

I thinks the "restrainer" might be the Holy Spirit. Maybe it's both, maybe they are one and the same. I did a thread on this at one time. I will dig it up.

anyway...

The "restrainer" CANNOT be the church. The church is never referred to as a "he". It is always referred to in female gender as "the bride".

Pre-Trib Argument #3:

Rev 4:1
After I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must be hereafter.

Pre-Tribbers believe this is the rapture of the church. They argue that the church is not mentioned again after Rev 4, so this means that the church is already raptured, and raptured before the seals, trumpets and vials occur.


Post Trib Response:

This is wrong.

The book of Revelation is divided into three sections. Past, present and future events.

Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which were, and the things which shall be hereafter;


Three categories: 1 Things thou hast seen, 2 things which are and 3 things which shall be hereafter. Items 1 and 2 are outlined in chaps 1-3. From chap 4 onward, these are the things which shall be hereafter (or future events).

Rev chap 4 and onward represent the prophetic portion of the book, or future prophesied events.

Note:
The first four seals have already been released. According to Irvin, this can be proven, so if this is true, then the pre-trib rapture is simply not possible. I will find data to support this and post it soon.







More to come... continued...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
aww i'm so glad. the one star heathen bumped my thread.

thanks, heathen!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:16 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
i am putting together the rest of this and it will take me a little while. but the conclusion is on its way
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1626283
United States
07/30/2013 12:37 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
"I thinks the "restrainer" might be the Holy Spirit"

This is correct.
Simple_Man

User ID: 15977994
United States
07/30/2013 12:39 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
I agree that how you see this subject unfolding isnt a heaven or hell issue but i reapectfully disagree with you and heres why

Matthew 25

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So here Jesus says he takes the wise virgins with him and leaves behind the foolish virgins .....they are both virgins before God ...yet the wise has oil in her lamp( oil represents the Holy Spirit ) and the foolish virgins don't ....

So what are the foolish virgins left behind to?


And Paul says he comes like a thief in the night


1 Thessalonians 5:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


When a thief comes in the night you awake in the morning and the thief has already taken what he has come for and you never knew it


Yet when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation the entire earth knows that he has come


I personally believe that the second coming of Christ is just like the first coming .....they were looking for the messiah and when he came they didn't recognize him

the bride(very elect) will be raptured and the rest of the Christian church(foolish virgin) will be left behind to endure the great tribulation

while Jesus and his bride are partaking in the wedding supper of the Lamb the great trib is happening here

Then at the end of the great Trib , Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints and the battle of Armageddon in the valley of Megiddo commences and sets up his 1000 year millennial reign from Jerusalem as the Son of David

Last Edited by Simple_Man on 07/30/2013 12:41 AM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:40 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
The seventy weeks

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

Pre-Tribber Argument #4:

Seventy weeks were determined upon Thy people. What people? The Jewish people? This has nothing to do with the Gentile church or the bride of Christ. So, doesn't this mean that the Gentiles will not be saved during the time of Daniel's 70th week? Does the 70th week pertain to the Jews or if the final 7 yrs which contains the 3.5 yrs of the great tribulation - if that's to do with the Jews then there won't be any salvation of Gentiles during this 70th week.

Post-Tribber Response:
To say that only Jews will be saved during this 70th week prophecy and Gentiles can only be saved during the gap btwn the 69th week and the 70th week, is obviously not true.

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



***the first 69 weeks of years STOPS at the crucifixion of Christ. During the gap of 69th week and 70th week the Jews were in revival.***

If the Gentiles are prohibited from being saved during the 70th week does that mean that Jews cannot be saved during that gap? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the early church together, and there will be both Jews and Gentiles in the last days church.

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jews and Gentiles of every nation, kindred and tongue will be saved during the great tribulation.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:41 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
"I thinks the "restrainer" might be the Holy Spirit"

This is correct.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1626283


Thread: TRUMPET SOUNDS - The Order of Revelation's 21 Plages. Things won't go down consecutively as it's written.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 12:44 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
the first 4 seals which may have already been broken:

1. Rev 6:1-2

The White Horse. The Antichrist comes forth. He has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned. A crown is given to him. He goes forth conquering and to conquer.

2. Rev 6:3-4

The Red Horse. War.
That they should take peace from the earth. He has a great sword.

3. Rev 6:5-6

The Black Horse. Famine.
A day’s wages for a day’s food. Hurt not the oil and the wine.

4. Rev 6:7-8

The Pale Horse. Death. One-fourth of the earth’s population is killed. Hell followed with him. Kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts.
Lester
User ID: 36573275
United States
07/30/2013 12:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
The "danger" is putting your trust in Laodicean precepts and your carnal-self rationalizations, rather than Trusting God Fully and making surrender...


In Matthew 22, Jesus Witnesses the parable of The King's Wedding Feast For HIS SON. None of the invited guests responded. King sends HIS Messenger/Servants to bid them to come, "for the fatlings are slaughtered" etc; and the invitees kill and maim HIS Men....

The real clincher comes in verses 11-13 when The King finds one of the newly recruited guests who has no Wedding Garment. Asks him, "Friend, how come ye here w/o a Wedding Garment?" and then has him bound and cast out into the night.

Jesus ends this Witness with "For many are called, but few are chosen"... v.14


Two other verses of those claiming HIM who are REJECTED. Matt 7:21-23 and Luke 13:23-28; Those who Do Not have Born-Again Hearts are those who are rejected.

God Does KNOW HIS OWN...
If you are ONE, you KNOW also and cannot forget the most important moment of your life, when you gave control of your life Unto The Father and were Born-Again IN HIS Presence...


Are you one of the Called?
Love Christ Jesus? KNOW WHO HE IS?
Then, Father-God HAS Called your heart.

Time to decide if you would Be HIS.

For many are called, but few chose to answer; few elected to make their surrender and Trust HIM Fully with every aspect of their lives...


The danger lies in not living life IN HIS Accord.
The danger is remaining bound to your self-will and carnal-heart. "Depart from ME you workers of iniquity, I KNOW you NOT!" Most Laodiceans will hear this from Our Lord. They trusted their minister, their church; everything in Christendom but God. They could not find it in their heart to PUT GOD First in their life, regardless of what they thought and believed....

You either KNOW HIM, or you don't.

When The Age Of Faith ends, (rev 14:7) The Way Unto The Father will be ended.

Now is the time to take action and open your heart Unto HIM.

Acknowledge Christ Jesus,
Admit & repent of your sins,
Claim your share of Father's Infinite Mercy & Grace,
Give HIM your life: all of it, good & bad, asking only to Do HIS Will from this point onward,
Ask HIM to Send HIS Holy Spirit To Guide your life.
HE Will, if you are sincere and honest...


Not much time left,

Maranatha!!!
Simple_Man

User ID: 15977994
United States
07/30/2013 12:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
The seventy weeks

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

Pre-Tribber Argument #4:

Seventy weeks were determined upon Thy people. What people? The Jewish people? This has nothing to do with the Gentile church or the bride of Christ. So, doesn't this mean that the Gentiles will not be saved during the time of Daniel's 70th week? Does the 70th week pertain to the Jews or if the final 7 yrs which contains the 3.5 yrs of the great tribulation - if that's to do with the Jews then there won't be any salvation of Gentiles during this 70th week.

Post-Tribber Response:
To say that only Jews will be saved during this 70th week prophecy and Gentiles can only be saved during the gap btwn the 69th week and the 70th week, is obviously not true.

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



***the first 69 weeks of years STOPS at the crucifixion of Christ. During the gap of 69th week and 70th week the Jews were in revival.***

If the Gentiles are prohibited from being saved during the 70th week does that mean that Jews cannot be saved during that gap? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the early church together, and there will be both Jews and Gentiles in the last days church.

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jews and Gentiles of every nation, kindred and tongue will be saved during the great tribulation.
 Quoting: Salt



Here's where I differ with you on this subject

I believe that God only deals primarily with either Jew or gentile " as a people" but neither at the same time ....

When God was dealing only with the Hebrew children under the old covenant he instructed Moses that any foreigner that wanted to live with them could but that they must assimilate under the Law and live as a Jew


Same thing under the new covenant .....God deals with the gentile people primarily but a Jew can also live under the new covenant ..he must believe on Jesus Christ

I personally believe that 69 weeks ended when Jesus ministry began when he was baptized by john and the father fully indwelt him and then immediately the 70th week began ...and for 3 and a half years he still dealt primarily only with the Jews ....

He was then cut off in the midst of the third week (crucified ) and he became the sin offering thus putting and end to the daily sacrifice

So that leaves 3 and a half years to deal with the Jews ....... The rapture happens ...the foolish gentile virgin is left behind to partake in the trib and gives her life for her testimony and is washed clean by giving her life then sleeps for a 1000 years until the mellinnial reign is over and during the trib God is only dealing with Jews ....he sends the 2 prophets to the elected Jews (144,000) and they believe the prophets because elected Jews will always listen to a prophet sent from God

I realize most people will disagree with me but this is what I see unfolding
Simple_Man

User ID: 15977994
United States
07/30/2013 12:58 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Always enjoy talking about the Word and it doesn't bother me that christians disagree on doctrine or how prophecy will unfold

Last Edited by Simple_Man on 07/30/2013 12:58 AM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:03 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Always enjoy talking about the Word and it doesn't bother me that christians disagree on doctrine or how prophecy will unfold
 Quoting: Simple_Man


discussions are healthy. its how we learn.
divisions and discord are unhealthy.

i will respond to your posts shortly. putting together the last part of this OP
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:24 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Pre-tribber Argument #5:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So, since everyone that receives the mark of the beast during the Great Tribulation will be lost, and everyone who refuses it will be killed, there can be no one at the end of the Great Tribulation that can be "alive and remaining." Therefore, the rapture happening at the END of the great tribulation is not possible, right?


Post-Tribber Response:
There's a lot of problems with that question because we know that there will be millions of people that go on into the millenial period of Christ's reign on earth. First of all, the pre-tribber idea that the antichrist will be in total control of the earth and that every person will either worship him and take the mark or else be killed is false.

Daniel 11:41
He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

(this is the country of Jordan and the antichrist will never occupy this region.)

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

(this place is Israel and "she" will never be occupied by the antichrist. That's the reason the AC tries to invade Israel at Armaggedon. You dont invade a place if you already control it.

Other places will not be controlled or occupied by the antichrist as well.

Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

So, basically the antichrist will still be fighting against nations trying to dominate and control them during the 3.5 yrs of the great trib and will not succeed.

Daniel 11:32-35
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he [the antichrist] corrupt by flatteries: but the people [during the great trib] that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

(There will be people killed by the anitchrist during the great trib. says it right there.)

Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


So, who will populate the earth during the millennial reign?

Daniel 7 reveals a prophecy of many nations, Great Britain, USA, Germany, Russia, and the countries of the European Union. in verse 11, it states that Jesus comes, puts the ac into the lake of fire, but as for the rest of the nations, they have their dominion taken away but their lives are prolonged for a season. Those nations will be allowed to live during the millennial reign under the rulership of Jesus Christ.

who precisely will populate the earth is not certain, but this is a generality.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:28 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Irvin Baxter's website

this teaching and all of his others can be found there

[link to www.endtime.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:32 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
The seventy weeks

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

Pre-Tribber Argument #4:

Seventy weeks were determined upon Thy people. What people? The Jewish people? This has nothing to do with the Gentile church or the bride of Christ. So, doesn't this mean that the Gentiles will not be saved during the time of Daniel's 70th week? Does the 70th week pertain to the Jews or if the final 7 yrs which contains the 3.5 yrs of the great tribulation - if that's to do with the Jews then there won't be any salvation of Gentiles during this 70th week.

Post-Tribber Response:
To say that only Jews will be saved during this 70th week prophecy and Gentiles can only be saved during the gap btwn the 69th week and the 70th week, is obviously not true.

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



***the first 69 weeks of years STOPS at the crucifixion of Christ. During the gap of 69th week and 70th week the Jews were in revival.***

If the Gentiles are prohibited from being saved during the 70th week does that mean that Jews cannot be saved during that gap? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the early church together, and there will be both Jews and Gentiles in the last days church.

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jews and Gentiles of every nation, kindred and tongue will be saved during the great tribulation.
 Quoting: Salt



Here's where I differ with you on this subject

I believe that God only deals primarily with either Jew or gentile " as a people" but neither at the same time ....

When God was dealing only with the Hebrew children under the old covenant he instructed Moses that any foreigner that wanted to live with them could but that they must assimilate under the Law and live as a Jew


Same thing under the new covenant .....God deals with the gentile people primarily but a Jew can also live under the new covenant ..he must believe on Jesus Christ

I personally believe that 69 weeks ended when Jesus ministry began when he was baptized by john and the father fully indwelt him and then immediately the 70th week began ...and for 3 and a half years he still dealt primarily only with the Jews ....

He was then cut off in the midst of the third week (crucified ) and he became the sin offering thus putting and end to the daily sacrifice

So that leaves 3 and a half years to deal with the Jews ....... The rapture happens ...the foolish gentile virgin is left behind to partake in the trib and gives her life for her testimony and is washed clean by giving her life then sleeps for a 1000 years until the mellinnial reign is over and during the trib God is only dealing with Jews ....he sends the 2 prophets to the elected Jews (144,000) and they believe the prophets because elected Jews will always listen to a prophet sent from God

I realize most people will disagree with me but this is what I see unfolding
 Quoting: Simple_Man


a Jewish person that accepts Christ is still a Jewish person. technically they are Christian, but in scripture they are considered Jews. these are the type of Jews that are discussed here. Jews that deny Christ are synagogue of satan and will worship satan and take the mark. they are no longer Jews. they call themselves Jews but are not.

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:34 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:37 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
one of the dangers of believing in a pre-trib rapture is not being prepared during the great tribulation and falling away because of it. in other words, when people are taking the mark and you are still here, what will prevent you from being tricked into taking it when you think that before the mark is given you would be raptured out of here?

by recognizing that rapture takes place at the END of the great trib, you will be ready and prepare and therefore not fooled into things that could destroy you.
deltaseven

User ID: 8093811
United States
07/30/2013 01:44 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Nice job Salt. Great presentation.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 44288744
South Africa
07/30/2013 01:44 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
It'll never happen. Seriously, if you can't figure that one out then perhaps being a forum moderator isn't quite appropriate for you...

norespect
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 01:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
somewhere in here, i think, is stuff regarding the "restrainer"

Thread: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away (Page 5)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1501237
United States
07/30/2013 01:49 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
good pre trib study



[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 44051603
United States
07/30/2013 01:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Mid tribulation is the right theory. I mean not hypothesis, but theory fact!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 02:02 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Mid tribulation is the right theory. I mean not hypothesis, but theory fact!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44051603


explain
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
07/30/2013 02:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
the first 4 seals which may have already been broken:

1. Rev 6:1-2

The White Horse. The Antichrist comes forth. He has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned. A crown is given to him. He goes forth conquering and to conquer.

2. Rev 6:3-4

The Red Horse. War.
That they should take peace from the earth. He has a great sword.

3. Rev 6:5-6

The Black Horse. Famine.
A day’s wages for a day’s food. Hurt not the oil and the wine.

4. Rev 6:7-8

The Pale Horse. Death. One-fourth of the earth’s population is killed. Hell followed with him. Kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts.
 Quoting: Salt


Thread: Shit's getting real. Wakey Wakey...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 42108480
United States
07/30/2013 02:18 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Seems like you should as they say, expect the best, but plan for the worst.

So, if you're prepared for the post-trib, you'll be better prepared either way.

For example, if you're mentally prepared to endure the challenges of post-trib, but a pre-trib occurs, it'll be a great surprise, and you'll be prepared regardless.

However, if your solely prepared for a pre-trib, you may not be ready for the trials of the post-trib.

Regardless, if there's a pre or post-trib, I say the most important thing, is to focus on carrying your cross daily, focus each day on loving and serving God, and others, and doing your best to do God's will as outlined in the Bible, daily.
Astral Goat

User ID: 33435073
United States
07/30/2013 02:42 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
No Pre-Trib

It's gonna hit everyone like a fucking brick
They figured out a long time ago that its much easier to control people when we're all watching the same TV shows, listening to the same radio stations, going to the same movies, looking at the same billboards, eating the same food, and speaking the same language...

:music: [link to nextgenfmradio.com]
777Saint777

User ID: 44051603
United States
07/30/2013 02:44 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Mid tribulation is the right theory. I mean not hypothesis, but theory fact!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44051603


explain
 Quoting: Salt


Very well. I just logged in and introducing you to the perfect picture.

1. Could We be Wrong about a pre-Tribulation Rapture?
Could it be possible that many mainstream churches have taken a doctrinal position for their churches - a doctrine on the second coming and the imminent return of Christ that was based on incomplete information and poor interpretation of Scripture?
I do not understand why it is so hard to accept the fact that we do not always get our theology right. Throughout church history, time has had a way of revealing the truth and correcting our errors. Based on what Jesus said about John, one of His disciples, Jesus disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. All but one of Jesus disciples was martyred, and they were wrong about the timing of Christ’s return.

2. A Needed Second Look at the Rapture.
I want to pose the question that some will ask, “Is it really that important as to when the rapture happens? Should not we just be ready?” This is a good question. The problem I see is if the churches are teaching the rapture will come before the Great Tribulation, then this gives the church a false sense of security. I have heard pastors say, God would not allow his church to go through suffering. Revelation 14:11-13, it says the saints will have to have patient endurance during the Great Tribulation, when the anti-christ is pushing his system of the mark of the beast. If the saints, who have expected the pre-Tribulation rapture, are all of a sudden seeing themselves in the Great Tribulation without warning and having no time to get ready for this turbulent time, I believe it will cause many Christians to turn away from God. I believe many will believe that they have been abandoned by God, and it will lead to many accepting the system of the antichrist rather than starve to death.
I believe the events happening today, with the world economies on the verge of collapse, are setting the world stage to cause the world populations to accept a savior in the form of the antichrist.

3. The Sealing of the 144,000 and other Pre-Rapture Events
As I have studied the book of Revelation, I have noticed that the 144,000 Jews were mentioned in chapter 7 and again in chapter 14. In chapter 7, the sealing of these Jews happens just before what I am convinced is the time of the rapture of the church. As it says in Revelation 7:9 (NIV), “After this, I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count...” Now, if you look at Revelation 14, you will see the mentioning of the 144,000 again, and as you continue reading Revelation 14:14-19, you will see what appears to be Jesus Christ in the clouds. Is this a second Rapture?

ohyeah
777Saint777
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 40019689
United States
07/30/2013 02:54 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Thx Salt for this topic. I'm still trying to figure out when it will take place. Just trying to stay ready for whenever the Lord does make it happen, for He has the perfect plan. 5* n pin suggest!
777Saint777

User ID: 44051603
United States
07/30/2013 03:06 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Also when we see the moon turns red like blood... it's rapture. We just don't know the day or hour, but we will know the week as moon turns red. Just like Two Suns on July 21 and something is up.
777Saint777
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 38007110
07/30/2013 03:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
This is based on a teaching from Irvin Baxter at End Time Ministries. see links and vids to follow for more of Irvin Baxter's teachings. all good stuff in my opinion.

Note: This topic is not a salvation issue. The most important thing is to be ready and stay ready. It is not a reason to divide and argue.

When will the Rapture happen?
The Rapture will happen immediately after the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto him, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

Wheat and Tares
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Rev 14:14-20
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of manb with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

Rev 19:7-21
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.




Pre-Trib Argument #1:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not appointed us to wrath...

(For pre-tribbers, this scripture indicates that the church will not experience God's wrath during the tribulation.)


Post-Trib Response:
It's obvious that God is not going to pour out His wrath on His church. God's not going to beat His bride before He marries her. The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. It is the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God is poured out right at the end of the Great Tribulation and right at the time of the Battle of Armaggedon.


Rev 12:7

Rev 12:12
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down upon you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.

He will 3.5 yrs left...

So, Satan is comes down, launches the Great Tribulation, and the full brunt of it will come upon the "woman with 12 stars above her head" - Israel and also the disciples of Christ. He will persecute the "woman" for time, times and half a time (the Great Trib is 3.5 yrs in length - not 7).

The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan for 3.5 yrs.
The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is described in Revelation chap. 16. These are the vials that will be coming down against the armies that will be coming against Israel at the time of the Battle of Armaggedon.

Remember: The Great Tribulation is Satan making war against the saints.


Pre-Trib Argument #2:

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Pre-Tribbers think that "he" which restrains is the church and that the restraining influence of the church must be removed at the rapture before the Antichrist can come to power.


Post-Trib Response:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
The rapture cannot happen until the falling away comes and Antichrist is revealed. The church is NOT the restrainer.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 explains what the restrainer is.
And now you know what withholdeth that the antichrist might be revealed in his time.


---This is where Irvin and I differ in opinion---

Irvin thinks the "restrainer" is the timeline or God's clock. In other words, the restrainer is God letting time pass until the right moment for these two things to happen; the falling away and the revealing of the antichrist. The antichrist cannot come until it is TIME for him to come.

I thinks the "restrainer" might be the Holy Spirit. Maybe it's both, maybe they are one and the same. I did a thread on this at one time. I will dig it up.

anyway...

The "restrainer" CANNOT be the church. The church is never referred to as a "he". It is always referred to in female gender as "the bride".

Pre-Trib Argument #3:

Rev 4:1
After I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must be hereafter.

Pre-Tribbers believe this is the rapture of the church. They argue that the church is not mentioned again after Rev 4, so this means that the church is already raptured, and raptured before the seals, trumpets and vials occur.


Post Trib Response:

This is wrong.

The book of Revelation is divided into three sections. Past, present and future events.

Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which were, and the things which shall be hereafter;


Three categories: 1 Things thou hast seen, 2 things which are and 3 things which shall be hereafter. Items 1 and 2 are outlined in chaps 1-3. From chap 4 onward, these are the things which shall be hereafter (or future events).

Rev chap 4 and onward represent the prophetic portion of the book, or future prophesied events.

Note:
The first four seals have already been released. According to Irvin, this can be proven, so if this is true, then the pre-trib rapture is simply not possible. I will find data to support this and post it soon.







More to come... continued...
 Quoting: Salt


why do you think or claim to know the truth when you dont live it first hand and neither do you have a say day way or play against the time line of the lord which you do not know may i add^ get over yourself bible tard.. know your place in hell is all im saying..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 44180110
Belgium
07/30/2013 03:56 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception
Mid tribulation is the right theory. I mean not hypothesis, but theory fact!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44051603


explain
 Quoting: Salt


Very well. I just logged in and introducing you to the perfect picture.

1. Could We be Wrong about a pre-Tribulation Rapture?
Could it be possible that many mainstream churches have taken a doctrinal position for their churches - a doctrine on the second coming and the imminent return of Christ that was based on incomplete information and poor interpretation of Scripture?
I do not understand why it is so hard to accept the fact that we do not always get our theology right. Throughout church history, time has had a way of revealing the truth and correcting our errors. Based on what Jesus said about John, one of His disciples, Jesus disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. All but one of Jesus disciples was martyred, and they were wrong about the timing of Christ’s return.

2. A Needed Second Look at the Rapture.
I want to pose the question that some will ask, “Is it really that important as to when the rapture happens? Should not we just be ready?” This is a good question. The problem I see is if the churches are teaching the rapture will come before the Great Tribulation, then this gives the church a false sense of security. I have heard pastors say, God would not allow his church to go through suffering. Revelation 14:11-13, it says the saints will have to have patient endurance during the Great Tribulation, when the anti-christ is pushing his system of the mark of the beast. If the saints, who have expected the pre-Tribulation rapture, are all of a sudden seeing themselves in the Great Tribulation without warning and having no time to get ready for this turbulent time, I believe it will cause many Christians to turn away from God. I believe many will believe that they have been abandoned by God, and it will lead to many accepting the system of the antichrist rather than starve to death.
I believe the events happening today, with the world economies on the verge of collapse, are setting the world stage to cause the world populations to accept a savior in the form of the antichrist.

3. The Sealing of the 144,000 and other Pre-Rapture Events
As I have studied the book of Revelation, I have noticed that the 144,000 Jews were mentioned in chapter 7 and again in chapter 14. In chapter 7, the sealing of these Jews happens just before what I am convinced is the time of the rapture of the church. As it says in Revelation 7:9 (NIV), “After this, I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count...” Now, if you look at Revelation 14, you will see the mentioning of the 144,000 again, and as you continue reading Revelation 14:14-19, you will see what appears to be Jesus Christ in the clouds. Is this a second Rapture?

ohyeah
 Quoting: 777Saint777


The Lord as always delivered His people during difficult times.

Delivered from Pharao/Egypt
Having gone through hundreds of years of hardship, toiling in Egypt, the Lord delivered his people. The Israelites went through the 10 plagues, the same as the Egyptians. However, their experience was different from that of the Egyptians.

From the time of Joshua through the period of the Judges.
During this period, they went through many trials and tribulations. The only thing they had to do was walk in the way of the Lord and do according to his will. If they did not walk in the way of the Lord, they suffered the consequences.

From the time of Samuel until exile into Assyria and Babylon
Ditto. Walk in the way of the Lord and all was well. Move away from the ways of the Lord and things begin to go bad.

Daniel and his 3 friends
The Lord did not rapture them away before the heat was turned up in the furnace. No, they remained in that furnace and not a single hair on their head was burnt. We saw what happened to those without the protection of the Lord, when they went near that furnace.

Avraham and Nimrod
Just as in the case Daniel, big bad Nimrod had put Avraham in a furnace because Avraham destroyed the idols worshipped by his father Terah, but the Lord delivered Avraham, because he was His friend.

Conclusion
We can go through the tribulation and still be delivered. How do we know this? Because we have examples of what the Lord as done in the past with his people going through trials and tribulations.

Just be ready. Walk in the ways of the Lord and do not fall away. Do not walk in the ways of the world. Be a friend to the Most High God.

Thanks.





GLP