When will the Rapture happen? Post-Trib Rapture, 4 Seals Already Broken, and the Dangers of Buying into the Pre-Trib deception

aww i'm so glad. the one star heathen bumped my thread.

thanks, heathen!

i am putting together the rest of this and it will take me a little while. but the conclusion is on its way

"I thinks the "restrainer" might be the Holy Spirit"

This is correct.

I agree that how you see this subject unfolding isnt a heaven or hell issue but i reapectfully disagree with you and heres why

Matthew 25

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So here Jesus says he takes the wise virgins with him and leaves behind the foolish virgins .....they are both virgins before God ...yet the wise has oil in her lamp( oil represents the Holy Spirit ) and the foolish virgins don't ....

So what are the foolish virgins left behind to?


And Paul says he comes like a thief in the night


1 Thessalonians 5:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


When a thief comes in the night you awake in the morning and the thief has already taken what he has come for and you never knew it


Yet when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation the entire earth knows that he has come


I personally believe that the second coming of Christ is just like the first coming .....they were looking for the messiah and when he came they didn't recognize him

the bride(very elect) will be raptured and the rest of the Christian church(foolish virgin) will be left behind to endure the great tribulation

while Jesus and his bride are partaking in the wedding supper of the Lamb the great trib is happening here

Then at the end of the great Trib , Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints and the battle of Armageddon in the valley of Megiddo commences and sets up his 1000 year millennial reign from Jerusalem as the Son of David

Last Edited by Simple_Man on 07/30/2013 12:41 AM

The seventy weeks

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

Pre-Tribber Argument #4:

Seventy weeks were determined upon Thy people. What people? The Jewish people? This has nothing to do with the Gentile church or the bride of Christ. So, doesn't this mean that the Gentiles will not be saved during the time of Daniel's 70th week? Does the 70th week pertain to the Jews or if the final 7 yrs which contains the 3.5 yrs of the great tribulation - if that's to do with the Jews then there won't be any salvation of Gentiles during this 70th week.

Post-Tribber Response:
To say that only Jews will be saved during this 70th week prophecy and Gentiles can only be saved during the gap btwn the 69th week and the 70th week, is obviously not true.

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


***the first 69 weeks of years STOPS at the crucifixion of Christ. During the gap of 69th week and 70th week the Jews were in revival.***

If the Gentiles are prohibited from being saved during the 70th week does that mean that Jews cannot be saved during that gap? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the early church together, and there will be both Jews and Gentiles in the last days church.

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jews and Gentiles of every nation, kindred and tongue will be saved during the great tribulation.

Thread: TRUMPET SOUNDS - The Order of Revelation's 21 Plages. Things won't go down consecutively as it's written.

the first 4 seals which may have already been broken:

1. Rev 6:1-2

The White Horse. The Antichrist comes forth. He has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned. A crown is given to him. He goes forth conquering and to conquer.

2. Rev 6:3-4

The Red Horse. War.
That they should take peace from the earth. He has a great sword.

3. Rev 6:5-6

The Black Horse. Famine.
A day’s wages for a day’s food. Hurt not the oil and the wine.

4. Rev 6:7-8

The Pale Horse. Death. One-fourth of the earth’s population is killed. Hell followed with him. Kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts.

The "danger" is putting your trust in Laodicean precepts and your carnal-self rationalizations, rather than Trusting God Fully and making surrender...


In Matthew 22, Jesus Witnesses the parable of The King's Wedding Feast For HIS SON. None of the invited guests responded. King sends HIS Messenger/Servants to bid them to come, "for the fatlings are slaughtered" etc; and the invitees kill and maim HIS Men....

The real clincher comes in verses 11-13 when The King finds one of the newly recruited guests who has no Wedding Garment. Asks him, "Friend, how come ye here w/o a Wedding Garment?" and then has him bound and cast out into the night.

Jesus ends this Witness with "For many are called, but few are chosen"... v.14


Two other verses of those claiming HIM who are REJECTED. Matt 7:21-23 and Luke 13:23-28; Those who Do Not have Born-Again Hearts are those who are rejected.

God Does KNOW HIS OWN...
If you are ONE, you KNOW also and cannot forget the most important moment of your life, when you gave control of your life Unto The Father and were Born-Again IN HIS Presence...


Are you one of the Called?
Love Christ Jesus? KNOW WHO HE IS?
Then, Father-God HAS Called your heart.

Time to decide if you would Be HIS.

For many are called, but few chose to answer; few elected to make their surrender and Trust HIM Fully with every aspect of their lives...


The danger lies in not living life IN HIS Accord.
The danger is remaining bound to your self-will and carnal-heart. "Depart from ME you workers of iniquity, I KNOW you NOT!" Most Laodiceans will hear this from Our Lord. They trusted their minister, their church; everything in Christendom but God. They could not find it in their heart to PUT GOD First in their life, regardless of what they thought and believed....

You either KNOW HIM, or you don't.

When The Age Of Faith ends, (rev 14:7) The Way Unto The Father will be ended.

Now is the time to take action and open your heart Unto HIM.

Acknowledge Christ Jesus,
Admit & repent of your sins,
Claim your share of Father's Infinite Mercy & Grace,
Give HIM your life: all of it, good & bad, asking only to Do HIS Will from this point onward,
Ask HIM to Send HIS Holy Spirit To Guide your life.
HE Will, if you are sincere and honest...


Not much time left,

Maranatha!!!

Here's where I differ with you on this subject

I believe that God only deals primarily with either Jew or gentile " as a people" but neither at the same time ....

When God was dealing only with the Hebrew children under the old covenant he instructed Moses that any foreigner that wanted to live with them could but that they must assimilate under the Law and live as a Jew


Same thing under the new covenant .....God deals with the gentile people primarily but a Jew can also live under the new covenant ..he must believe on Jesus Christ

I personally believe that 69 weeks ended when Jesus ministry began when he was baptized by john and the father fully indwelt him and then immediately the 70th week began ...and for 3 and a half years he still dealt primarily only with the Jews ....

He was then cut off in the midst of the third week (crucified ) and he became the sin offering thus putting and end to the daily sacrifice

So that leaves 3 and a half years to deal with the Jews ....... The rapture happens ...the foolish gentile virgin is left behind to partake in the trib and gives her life for her testimony and is washed clean by giving her life then sleeps for a 1000 years until the mellinnial reign is over and during the trib God is only dealing with Jews ....he sends the 2 prophets to the elected Jews (144,000) and they believe the prophets because elected Jews will always listen to a prophet sent from God

I realize most people will disagree with me but this is what I see unfolding

Always enjoy talking about the Word and it doesn't bother me that christians disagree on doctrine or how prophecy will unfold

Last Edited by Simple_Man on 07/30/2013 12:58 AM

discussions are healthy. its how we learn.
divisions and discord are unhealthy.

i will respond to your posts shortly. putting together the last part of this OP

Pre-tribber Argument #5:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, since everyone that receives the mark of the beast during the Great Tribulation will be lost, and everyone who refuses it will be killed, there can be no one at the end of the Great Tribulation that can be "alive and remaining." Therefore, the rapture happening at the END of the great tribulation is not possible, right?


Post-Tribber Response:
There's a lot of problems with that question because we know that there will be millions of people that go on into the millenial period of Christ's reign on earth. First of all, the pre-tribber idea that the antichrist will be in total control of the earth and that every person will either worship him and take the mark or else be killed is false.

Daniel 11:41
He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

(this is the country of Jordan and the antichrist will never occupy this region.)

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

(this place is Israel and "she" will never be occupied by the antichrist. That's the reason the AC tries to invade Israel at Armaggedon. You dont invade a place if you already control it.

Other places will not be controlled or occupied by the antichrist as well.

Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

So, basically the antichrist will still be fighting against nations trying to dominate and control them during the 3.5 yrs of the great trib and will not succeed.

Daniel 11:32-35
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he [the antichrist] corrupt by flatteries: but the people [during the great trib] that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

(There will be people killed by the anitchrist during the great trib. says it right there.)

Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


So, who will populate the earth during the millennial reign?

Daniel 7 reveals a prophecy of many nations, Great Britain, USA, Germany, Russia, and the countries of the European Union. in verse 11, it states that Jesus comes, puts the ac into the lake of fire, but as for the rest of the nations, they have their dominion taken away but their lives are prolonged for a season. Those nations will be allowed to live during the millennial reign under the rulership of Jesus Christ.

who precisely will populate the earth is not certain, but this is a generality.

Irvin Baxter's website

this teaching and all of his others can be found there

[link to www.endtime.com]

a Jewish person that accepts Christ is still a Jewish person. technically they are Christian, but in scripture they are considered Jews. these are the type of Jews that are discussed here. Jews that deny Christ are synagogue of satan and will worship satan and take the mark. they are no longer Jews. they call themselves Jews but are not.

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

one of the dangers of believing in a pre-trib rapture is not being prepared during the great tribulation and falling away because of it. in other words, when people are taking the mark and you are still here, what will prevent you from being tricked into taking it when you think that before the mark is given you would be raptured out of here?

by recognizing that rapture takes place at the END of the great trib, you will be ready and prepare and therefore not fooled into things that could destroy you.

Nice job Salt. Great presentation.

It'll never happen. Seriously, if you can't figure that one out then perhaps being a forum moderator isn't quite appropriate for you...

somewhere in here, i think, is stuff regarding the "restrainer"

Thread: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away (Page 5)

good pre trib study



[link to www.youtube.com]

Mid tribulation is the right theory. I mean not hypothesis, but theory fact!

explain

Thread: Shit's getting real. Wakey Wakey...

Seems like you should as they say, expect the best, but plan for the worst.

So, if you're prepared for the post-trib, you'll be better prepared either way.

For example, if you're mentally prepared to endure the challenges of post-trib, but a pre-trib occurs, it'll be a great surprise, and you'll be prepared regardless.

However, if your solely prepared for a pre-trib, you may not be ready for the trials of the post-trib.

Regardless, if there's a pre or post-trib, I say the most important thing, is to focus on carrying your cross daily, focus each day on loving and serving God, and others, and doing your best to do God's will as outlined in the Bible, daily.

No Pre-Trib

It's gonna hit everyone like a fucking brick

Very well. I just logged in and introducing you to the perfect picture.

1. Could We be Wrong about a pre-Tribulation Rapture?
Could it be possible that many mainstream churches have taken a doctrinal position for their churches - a doctrine on the second coming and the imminent return of Christ that was based on incomplete information and poor interpretation of Scripture?
I do not understand why it is so hard to accept the fact that we do not always get our theology right. Throughout church history, time has had a way of revealing the truth and correcting our errors. Based on what Jesus said about John, one of His disciples, Jesus disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. All but one of Jesus disciples was martyred, and they were wrong about the timing of Christ’s return.

2. A Needed Second Look at the Rapture.
I want to pose the question that some will ask, “Is it really that important as to when the rapture happens? Should not we just be ready?” This is a good question. The problem I see is if the churches are teaching the rapture will come before the Great Tribulation, then this gives the church a false sense of security. I have heard pastors say, God would not allow his church to go through suffering. Revelation 14:11-13, it says the saints will have to have patient endurance during the Great Tribulation, when the anti-christ is pushing his system of the mark of the beast. If the saints, who have expected the pre-Tribulation rapture, are all of a sudden seeing themselves in the Great Tribulation without warning and having no time to get ready for this turbulent time, I believe it will cause many Christians to turn away from God. I believe many will believe that they have been abandoned by God, and it will lead to many accepting the system of the antichrist rather than starve to death.
I believe the events happening today, with the world economies on the verge of collapse, are setting the world stage to cause the world populations to accept a savior in the form of the antichrist.

3. The Sealing of the 144,000 and other Pre-Rapture Events
As I have studied the book of Revelation, I have noticed that the 144,000 Jews were mentioned in chapter 7 and again in chapter 14. In chapter 7, the sealing of these Jews happens just before what I am convinced is the time of the rapture of the church. As it says in Revelation 7:9 (NIV), “After this, I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count...” Now, if you look at Revelation 14, you will see the mentioning of the 144,000 again, and as you continue reading Revelation 14:14-19, you will see what appears to be Jesus Christ in the clouds. Is this a second Rapture?

Thx Salt for this topic. I'm still trying to figure out when it will take place. Just trying to stay ready for whenever the Lord does make it happen, for He has the perfect plan. 5* n pin suggest!

Also when we see the moon turns red like blood... it's rapture. We just don't know the day or hour, but we will know the week as moon turns red. Just like Two Suns on July 21 and something is up.

why do you think or claim to know the truth when you dont live it first hand and neither do you have a say day way or play against the time line of the lord which you do not know may i add^ get over yourself bible tard.. know your place in hell is all im saying..

The Lord as always delivered His people during difficult times.

Delivered from Pharao/Egypt
Having gone through hundreds of years of hardship, toiling in Egypt, the Lord delivered his people. The Israelites went through the 10 plagues, the same as the Egyptians. However, their experience was different from that of the Egyptians.

From the time of Joshua through the period of the Judges.
During this period, they went through many trials and tribulations. The only thing they had to do was walk in the way of the Lord and do according to his will. If they did not walk in the way of the Lord, they suffered the consequences.

From the time of Samuel until exile into Assyria and Babylon
Ditto. Walk in the way of the Lord and all was well. Move away from the ways of the Lord and things begin to go bad.

Daniel and his 3 friends
The Lord did not rapture them away before the heat was turned up in the furnace. No, they remained in that furnace and not a single hair on their head was burnt. We saw what happened to those without the protection of the Lord, when they went near that furnace.

Avraham and Nimrod
Just as in the case Daniel, big bad Nimrod had put Avraham in a furnace because Avraham destroyed the idols worshipped by his father Terah, but the Lord delivered Avraham, because he was His friend.

Conclusion
We can go through the tribulation and still be delivered. How do we know this? Because we have examples of what the Lord as done in the past with his people going through trials and tribulations.

Just be ready. Walk in the ways of the Lord and do not fall away. Do not walk in the ways of the world. Be a friend to the Most High God.

Thanks.