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For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

 
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09/12/2013 09:56 PM
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For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
tribulaton is 2013-2020

so called rapture is the solar flares (from within the earth cause sun is actually projection of the real one inside earth) and natural disasters that put away the the low vibrational people
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Therefore, comfort one another with these words...


Hehe...
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Work the pronouns from the Greek and see how much different your thesis then has to be if the Greek grammar is to be used to defend other doctrines you all like to hit each other over the head with...
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Work the pronouns from the Greek and see how much different your thesis then has to be if the Greek grammar is to be used to defend other doctrines you all like to hit each other over the head with...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


I know about the hell everlasting doom doctrines and how they are twisted.

But that would take a whole new thread just to deal with that alone.

This one just shoots the pre trib doctrine to peices.

One lie at a time is dealt with.

I think Neim777 dealt with the other one.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It is the follower of Jesus that is the one that is even now going through great tribulation.. not the non-believers.. and a 1,980 year long tribulation can very easily be seen to be a Great Tribulation.. in fact the Greatest one that has ever been..

The Apostles even before the end of 70 A.D. were already in The Tribulation.

The followers of Jesus were to be delivered or in a safe place when the Wrath of God (which is not The Tribulation) was sent and going down...

You Pre-Tribs have gotten things totally backwards, because your stance actually makes the words of Jesus in other places to seem empty and even a lie when he speak of how his followers will be going through many perils and tribulations.. even to the point of even some of them betraying each others and have them sent to be executed..

But then, what should one expect when the Pre Tribu is constantly be used by many different nation's Intelligence agents to try to push God into acting when They want him to.. of course theirs is a vain thing.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42413545


So you didnt bother to read it did you? because it agrees with what you just said.

We are NOT appointed to his wrath.

Now go back and try reading it and you will see something you probably never saw befeore.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42413545


So, since not appointed to God's Wrath the 'Rapture" has to be Pre Wrath.. and since Jesus tells his followers they would be in much tribulation and sorrow, he is tellign them they will be, well, in Tribulation... but delivered from the effects of God's Wrath when it is poured out.. hence, not appointed to God's Wrath...
0_0

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
The chariots of God are tens of thousands, and thousands of thousands.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Work the pronouns from the Greek and see how much different your thesis then has to be if the Greek grammar is to be used to defend other doctrines you all like to hit each other over the head with...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


I know about the hell everlasting doom doctrines and how they are twisted.

But that would take a whole new thread just to deal with that alone.

This one just shoots the pre trib doctrine to peices.

One lie at a time is dealt with.

I think Neim777 dealt with the other one.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


Oh, I see I mis understood your assertion.. no, "BASIS" but rather PROOF that the Rapture is After the Tribulation.. my apologies.. for my misreading your assertion..

My "your thesis" then really doesn't apply to You the OP in this case.. My Bad.

Pre-Wrath, not Pre-Trib...

I can find it no other way, not when it was by the Pronouns that it was Peter, and James, and John, and other of his APostles and Disciples that were sitting there on Mt Olivett that day being told "You" meanign those very same Apostles and disciples, that You will see the abomination of desolation .. and when you , Peter, John, James, et.al, then You guys run to the hills..
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
 Quoting: 0_0


No they are the SAME event.

If you had bothered to read the post you would have seen the incontrovertable proof of that.

Now go and have a read.

Really..itsall there.

Solid proof.

It cant be debunked.

I tried and could not do it.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
 Quoting: 0_0


No they are the SAME event.

If you had bothered to read the post you would have seen the incontrovertable proof of that.

Now go and have a read.

Really..itsall there.

Solid proof.

It cant be debunked.

I tried and could not do it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


nailedit

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 11

The rapture is an American doctrine, removing all suffering, because to the pathetic American churches, we never suffer. 5* and PIN!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
but the scripture isnt proof of anything right?

didnt some kings and councils and other illuminati stuff change the bible every now and then?
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
 Quoting: 0_0


If by 'rapture' you mean the Greeting together of those who have been raised from the dead or transformed in the twinkling of their eye and gathered up to met the Lord in the air, .. .. then it is apparent that that rapture, that gathering together to the Lord in the air.. is but a Part of the Second Coming.. not a separate event from it, but a part of it.

so, by the pronouns.. it would seem that either, 1.) Peter, James, John and etal, have never died, or the abomination of desolation spoken of has already happened.. that is if all those have died.. would be a big different though if only one of that group were in fact still alive to this very day in 2013..

What is "abomination of desolation".? What is "desolation"?

Well, what is 'desolation'? If we don't know what desolation even means but just use it as some niffty slogan.. then we know nothing really.

And what is 'abomination".. I find it to be something seen as a curse, seen as a curse by some one.. or someones.

Findign the term 'desolation'to mean as it developed throughout its usages in Scriptures, is but a severe population , a population reduction of a given arear or region of land.. such as currently the ruins of Babylon are Desolate.. (don't know how many Iraqi soliders if any are guard it at the moment.. but its population is definitely desolate compared two when it was the capital city of ALexander the Great.. )

And since in the Prophets, Babylon was desolate, an inhabitance of dragons and jackals.. (animal population) but no human or very low human population, then it would seem.. that the "abomination of desolation" is a very cursed very severe reduction of the human population nunmbers of Humans in the Temple, its complex, and in fact even Jerusalem..

Maybe I got it wrong.. but such an approach in my opinion is getting closer to the ball park.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Beautiful verses there...

Pity you cut off 25 and 26 though...
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
"the thousand years " it is interesting to look at the Kione Greek of the text of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus given to John.. to see the exact number being used there.. some find it to be in the 'double' plural, as in 'thousands of years'..

of course it sorta depends on which 'Kione Greek to Modern English" translation lexicon and dictonary that one counsults.. mileage does vary slightly on pieces of the road.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The tribulation is a two part event. The first 1260 days involve the opening of the six seals. The opening of the seventh seal marks the "Great Tribulation" which the two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth for 1260 days. The rapture is a midtribulation event. Some of you people need to go take a reading comprehension course or just quit making stuff up when you can't find the answers in the bible. The bible is quite clear about how and when it will occur.

There is nothing biblical to support the pretribulation rapture. The answer is in Revelation 6 and 7. We also know Paul says we will escape the coming wrath. The sixth seal is opened and the inhabitants of the world say the following from biblegateway.com Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days starts.


Revelation 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The key words "these are they which came out of the great tribulation". There is chronological order here. The seventh seal is about to open and the seven trumpets haven't even started. This event is different from the the change in a twinkling of an eye at the seventh trumpet.

Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Note flesh is saved.
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The first is a flesh body and the second is a spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is a transformation to the incorruptible spirit.
So we have flesh saved because of the elect's sake. Various nations of the earth are brought as a multitude before the throne. They are not yet in the Kingdom of God. This is the rapture. Then in 52 we see the group changed to incorruptible spirits in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
Also look at the passage Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. What just happened? The nations that stood before the throne became the nations of God. When that happens the spiritual bodies can be made.

There are a couple of things that tell you the season of the rapture and the fact that it is consistent with multitude being taken out of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. The background is a little complex, but it involves the fig tree being the forbidden fruit.

I am going to show two examples to support this, there is much more, but I will not post it unless someone is interested in seeing what I have found.

Mark 11: 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. He rode into Jerusalem as the new King. He went back to the beginning and turned over the money tables to show the destruction of the root of evil which is love of money and what better place to do it than in the temple. The root for evil would be on the tree of knowledge; so, the next morning he finds no fruit on the fig tree, curses it and tells you not to eat from it ever again. Sound like what God said to Adam and Eve?
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: The tree will not bear false fruit for his people anymore. They will be taken before summer. The rapture is a late spring event by the indication.
The next passage confirms it is a midtribulation event. The first 1260 days have occured and the last 1260 with the testimony of the two witnesses is starting.
Luke13:6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The tree hasn't born fruit for three years, and it will be cut down in the fourth if it doesn't bear fruit. Just like the first three years of the tribulation in the fourth year is beginning of the great tribulation. The knowledge for evil is failing it doesn't bear fruit. The fourth year is the culmination of awakening and understanding of the mysteries of the scriptures. The rapture takes place. I don't know the hour and the day, but here is what we can derive from scriptures.
1. It is an event that takes place after the opening of the sixth seal. The worldwide earthquake has taken place. The winds stop, then the 144,000 are sealed, and the multitude is taken. For this event to be at the last trumpet the it would have to occur simultaneously. Nowhere in scripture does it say the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are together. All indications is it follows chronological and numerical sequence. First seven seals then seven trumpets.
2. The fig tree will not bear fruit for those of the flock. Christ says in Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: It is going to happen probably in late spring.
3. Luke 13 tells you the fourth year is coming and the fig tree is cut down. This would be a midtribulation rapture.

One last thing that I need to add that is misinterpreted by Paul. 1Thessalonians4:15 According to the Lordís word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the shout, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice he says those who are still alive and will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Apparently, Paul is is either of the two endtime witnesses or of the 144,000. Those in the clouds are the multitude of nations brought before the throne. They are about to be transformed to the incorruptible spirit.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Beautiful verses there...

Pity you cut off 25 and 26 though...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Which book?

Mathew..luke..what??
sandpiper

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Why would the LORD need the 144,000 if the Church was still here? The Old Testament is for the Jews, also for our learning. In the New Testament we have the LORD on the cross, died buried and arose. There is when everything is new for the believers in CHRIST. The non believers will be left, the evil ones that want to destroy the earth. The Blessed Hope is that JESUS CHRIST will call HIS to the heavens with a "Come up here." HE promised that we would not go through the tribulation. We will be changed in a twinkling of the eye and be with the LORD for ever and ever. We will return with HIM on white horses, all clothed in white linen. HIS (remember chosen that is mostly Israel), will be preached to by the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, and the two prophets that will come forth, many of the lost will be saved. The 7 trumps are blown by angels, but the TRUMP OF GOD, will call HIS home, that is the rapture! It is in the bible, read it. Pray that you will escape these things that are about to fall on the earth.
If you break my wings, I will just find a cloud and learn to fly again. The Lord will catch you when you fall or teach you to fly! May the footprints I leave lead you to BELIEVE.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Also in 1st Thess, and 2nd Thess Two,.. there is the question as well as to the pronouns and the audience being written too, and/or written about.. When Paul uses the term (as if translated in the KJV), "Now, Brothern, I would not have you... " the question becomes just how much expanded or extended throughout time can be understood to be those Brothern.. Was it only for a limited time as if only those who first received that Epistle form Paul's courier.. and read the first time by that assembly at Thessonlians.. or does it extend even down now to the 21st Century and even others as brethern, who are not assembled at Thessolinica?

Since I am mainly a Constructionalism in textual interpretation, I am fairly restricted and bound by the syntax and sematics, at least for my first approximations of the understanding of these texts..

However, some are Originalists so they get a different understanding..

If you don't konw that Constructionist and Originalist terms mean,consult Wikipedia for instance .. read and learn..

BTW, the same to methods of textual interpretation, even of the English text of the US Constituion,those two methods, the Constructionalist and the Originalists, give air and reason as to why there is divison even within the Constitutionalists, those even among the US Supreme Court Justices.. just in case ya'all were not aware of that.

One the other hand I cannot see in the least ( if they have used the Constructionalist methods) how the Pre-Tribs thing we must be yet waiting to see the abomination of desolation at the Temple in a place it ought not be seen.. and the implication that it implies that since that temple no longer even stands therefore must be rebuilt.. before there can be a Place where the abomination of desolation can be seen to be found in, so that one can then know it is time to flee that Temple and flle Jerusalem and head to the Hills.. aka tiime to bug out of the temple and Jerusalem.

I didn't get that said very smoothly.. but I think you can see my points there..
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Beautiful verses there...

Pity you cut off 25 and 26 though...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1194370


Which book?

Mathew..luke..what??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


I have the same question.. of 1194360's statement..
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The tribulation is a two part event. The first 1260 days involve the opening of the six seals. The opening of the seventh seal marks the "Great Tribulation" which the two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth for 1260 days. The rapture is a midtribulation event. Some of you people need to go take a reading comprehension course or just quit making stuff up when you can't find the answers in the bible. The bible is quite clear about how and when it will occur.

There is nothing biblical to support the pretribulation rapture. The answer is in Revelation 6 and 7. We also know Paul says we will escape the coming wrath. The sixth seal is opened and the inhabitants of the world say the following from biblegateway.com Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days starts.


Revelation 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The key words "these are they which came out of the great tribulation". There is chronological order here. The seventh seal is about to open and the seven trumpets haven't even started. This event is different from the the change in a twinkling of an eye at the seventh trumpet.

Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Note flesh is saved.
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The first is a flesh body and the second is a spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is a transformation to the incorruptible spirit.
So we have flesh saved because of the elect's sake. Various nations of the earth are brought as a multitude before the throne. They are not yet in the Kingdom of God. This is the rapture. Then in 52 we see the group changed to incorruptible spirits in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
Also look at the passage Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. What just happened? The nations that stood before the throne became the nations of God. When that happens the spiritual bodies can be made.

There are a couple of things that tell you the season of the rapture and the fact that it is consistent with multitude being taken out of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. The background is a little complex, but it involves the fig tree being the forbidden fruit.

I am going to show two examples to support this, there is much more, but I will not post it unless someone is interested in seeing what I have found.

Mark 11: 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. He rode into Jerusalem as the new King. He went back to the beginning and turned over the money tables to show the destruction of the root of evil which is love of money and what better place to do it than in the temple. The root for evil would be on the tree of knowledge; so, the next morning he finds no fruit on the fig tree, curses it and tells you not to eat from it ever again. Sound like what God said to Adam and Eve?
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: The tree will not bear false fruit for his people anymore. They will be taken before summer. The rapture is a late spring event by the indication.
The next passage confirms it is a midtribulation event. The first 1260 days have occured and the last 1260 with the testimony of the two witnesses is starting.
Luke13:6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The tree hasn't born fruit for three years, and it will be cut down in the fourth if it doesn't bear fruit. Just like the first three years of the tribulation in the fourth year is beginning of the great tribulation. The knowledge for evil is failing it doesn't bear fruit. The fourth year is the culmination of awakening and understanding of the mysteries of the scriptures. The rapture takes place. I don't know the hour and the day, but here is what we can derive from scriptures.
1. It is an event that takes place after the opening of the sixth seal. The worldwide earthquake has taken place. The winds stop, then the 144,000 are sealed, and the multitude is taken. For this event to be at the last trumpet the it would have to occur simultaneously. Nowhere in scripture does it say the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are together. All indications is it follows chronological and numerical sequence. First seven seals then seven trumpets.
2. The fig tree will not bear fruit for those of the flock. Christ says in Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: It is going to happen probably in late spring.
3. Luke 13 tells you the fourth year is coming and the fig tree is cut down. This would be a midtribulation rapture.

One last thing that I need to add that is misinterpreted by Paul. 1Thessalonians4:15 According to the Lordís word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the spam, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice he says those who are still alive and will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Apparently, Paul is is either of the two endtime witnesses or of the 144,000. Those in the clouds are the multitude of nations brought before the throne. They are about to be transformed to the incorruptible spirit.
 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way


Read what I posted and I bet you will never post it^^^ again.

Like I said..no conjecture in that post.

Word for word PROOF..and all the false church doctrines fall apart at its touch/....IF you stop being a church robot for moment and read for yourself whats in there instead of regurguitating the same old hal lindsay rubbish.

I think what jesus actually said has more weight to it than what a bloke who had made a stack of false prohecies has.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It is wonderful to see folks reading and studying scripture.

Even more wonderful when God reveals His secrets through them.

When The Spirit reveals truth.

May all who seek truth find it.

Peace,
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Nice post OP


In Mt 24 Christ mentions that when they set up the abomination.....flee.....it will be a time of great tribulation. This will start at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week.


Notice the words presented.......great tribulation. It is a time of great difficulty.....the length of which is not specified. Small letters.....great tribulation.


"The Tribulation Period" and "The Great Tribulation Period" are man made additions to Scripture. As such they should not be used.


It is then easy to see how God can shorten this tribulation (end it).......as it is not a fixed 3.5 years.


So the man of evil will go on a rampage for a few years......and then God will end it......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


5th Seal......the persecution which is later ended by God.


6th Seal......worldwide darkness for an unspecified period of time. The elites hide in caves and declare that God's wrath is about to begin.


Then....the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm. They will remain on earth. The Christians are caught up by the angels.


Then......7th Seal.....God's wrath.....the trumpet and bowl judgments......comprising the final one year or so of Daniel's 70th week. The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Why would the LORD need the 144,000 if the Church was still here? The Old Testament is for the Jews, also for our learning. In the New Testament we have the LORD on the cross, died buried and arose. There is when everything is new for the believers in CHRIST. The non believers will be left, the evil ones that want to destroy the earth. The Blessed Hope is that JESUS CHRIST will call HIS to the heavens with a "Come up here." HE promised that we would not go through the tribulation. We will be changed in a twinkling of the eye and be with the LORD for ever and ever. We will return with HIM on white horses, all clothed in white linen. HIS (remember chosen that is mostly Israel), will be preached to by the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, and the two prophets that will come forth, many of the lost will be saved. The 7 trumps are blown by angels, but the TRUMP OF GOD, will call HIS home, that is the rapture! It is in the bible, read it. Pray that you will escape these things that are about to fall on the earth.
 Quoting: sandpiper


Same old reguritated "Chruch" doctrine.

Please try reading the post and then comment.

So tired of copy paste drones who never even read a thread before they post.

There was a challenge to read it twice BEFORE you responded.
Anonymous Coward
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09/12/2013 10:54 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42413545


So you didnt bother to read it did you? because it agrees with what you just said.

We are NOT appointed to his wrath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

*His* wrath begins at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, starting when the Lamb begins opening the Revelation 6 seals and unleashing His wrath on the world.

Unless one believes that Jesus is not divine then one has to accept it is God unleashing His wrath on the world and NOT man or satan or antichrist.

Take it from there.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/12/2013 10:54 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Nice post OP


In Mt 24 Christ mentions that when they set up the abomination.....flee.....it will be a time of great tribulation. This will start at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week.


Notice the words presented.......great tribulation. It is a time of great difficulty.....the length of which is not specified. Small letters.....great tribulation.


"The Tribulation Period" and "The Great Tribulation Period" are man made additions to Scripture. As such they should not be used.


It is then easy to see how God can shorten this tribulation (end it).......as it is not a fixed 3.5 years.


So the man of evil will go on a rampage for a few years......and then God will end it......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


5th Seal......the persecution which is later ended by God.


6th Seal......worldwide darkness for an unspecified period of time. The elites hide in caves and declare that God's wrath is about to begin.


Then....the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm. They will remain on earth. The Christians are caught up by the angels.


Then......7th Seal.....God's wrath.....the trumpet and bowl judgments......comprising the final one year or so of Daniel's 70th week. The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302253


The seventh trumpet IS the bowls.
\
The trumpets are NOT listed as wrath but the bowls are.

And the seventh trumpet..IS the bowls..like the sevent seal..IS the trumpets.
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09/12/2013 10:55 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42413545


So you didnt bother to read it did you? because it agrees with what you just said.

We are NOT appointed to his wrath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

*His* wrath begins at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, starting when the Lamb begins opening the Revelation 6 seals and unleashing His wrath on the world.

Unless one believes that Jesus is not divine then one has to accept it is God unleashing His wrath on the world and NOT man or satan or antichrist.

Take it from there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5525255


You did not read a word of the thread did you?

It covered all that.
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09/12/2013 10:56 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The tribulation is a two part event. The first 1260 days involve the opening of the six seals. The opening of the seventh seal marks the "Great Tribulation" which the two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth for 1260 days. The rapture is a midtribulation event. Some of you people need to go take a reading comprehension course or just quit making stuff up when you can't find the answers in the bible. The bible is quite clear about how and when it will occur.

There is nothing biblical to support the pretribulation rapture. The answer is in Revelation 6 and 7. We also know Paul says we will escape the coming wrath. The sixth seal is opened and the inhabitants of the world say the following from biblegateway.com Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days starts.


Revelation 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The key words "these are they which came out of the great tribulation". There is chronological order here. The seventh seal is about to open and the seven trumpets haven't even started. This event is different from the the change in a twinkling of an eye at the seventh trumpet.

Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Note flesh is saved.
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The first is a flesh body and the second is a spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is a transformation to the incorruptible spirit.
So we have flesh saved because of the elect's sake. Various nations of the earth are brought as a multitude before the throne. They are not yet in the Kingdom of God. This is the rapture. Then in 52 we see the group changed to incorruptible spirits in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
Also look at the passage Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. What just happened? The nations that stood before the throne became the nations of God. When that happens the spiritual bodies can be made.

There are a couple of things that tell you the season of the rapture and the fact that it is consistent with multitude being taken out of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. The background is a little complex, but it involves the fig tree being the forbidden fruit.

I am going to show two examples to support this, there is much more, but I will not post it unless someone is interested in seeing what I have found.

Mark 11: 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. He rode into Jerusalem as the new King. He went back to the beginning and turned over the money tables to show the destruction of the root of evil which is love of money and what better place to do it than in the temple. The root for evil would be on the tree of knowledge; so, the next morning he finds no fruit on the fig tree, curses it and tells you not to eat from it ever again. Sound like what God said to Adam and Eve?
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: The tree will not bear false fruit for his people anymore. They will be taken before summer. The rapture is a late spring event by the indication.
The next passage confirms it is a midtribulation event. The first 1260 days have occured and the last 1260 with the testimony of the two witnesses is starting.
Luke13:6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The tree hasn't born fruit for three years, and it will be cut down in the fourth if it doesn't bear fruit. Just like the first three years of the tribulation in the fourth year is beginning of the great tribulation. The knowledge for evil is failing it doesn't bear fruit. The fourth year is the culmination of awakening and understanding of the mysteries of the scriptures. The rapture takes place. I don't know the hour and the day, but here is what we can derive from scriptures.
1. It is an event that takes place after the opening of the sixth seal. The worldwide earthquake has taken place. The winds stop, then the 144,000 are sealed, and the multitude is taken. For this event to be at the last trumpet the it would have to occur simultaneously. Nowhere in scripture does it say the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are together. All indications is it follows chronological and numerical sequence. First seven seals then seven trumpets.
2. The fig tree will not bear fruit for those of the flock. Christ says in Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: It is going to happen probably in late spring.
3. Luke 13 tells you the fourth year is coming and the fig tree is cut down. This would be a midtribulation rapture.

One last thing that I need to add that is misinterpreted by Paul. 1Thessalonians4:15 According to the Lordís word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the spam, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice he says those who are still alive and will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Apparently, Paul is is either of the two endtime witnesses or of the 144,000. Those in the clouds are the multitude of nations brought before the throne. They are about to be transformed to the incorruptible spirit.
 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way


Read what I posted and I bet you will never post it^^^ again.

Like I said..no conjecture in that post.

Word for word PROOF..and all the false church doctrines fall apart at its touch/....IF you stop being a church robot for moment and read for yourself whats in there instead of regurguitating the same old hal lindsay rubbish.

I think what jesus actually said has more weight to it than what a bloke who had made a stack of false prohecies has.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


You are wrong. You can't argue with this. No church robot here.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/12/2013 11:06 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The tribulation is a two part event. The first 1260 days involve the opening of the six seals. The opening of the seventh seal marks the "Great Tribulation" which the two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth for 1260 days. The rapture is a midtribulation event. Some of you people need to go take a reading comprehension course or just quit making stuff up when you can't find the answers in the bible. The bible is quite clear about how and when it will occur.

There is nothing biblical to support the pretribulation rapture. The answer is in Revelation 6 and 7. We also know Paul says we will escape the coming wrath. The sixth seal is opened and the inhabitants of the world say the following from biblegateway.com Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days starts.


Revelation 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The key words "these are they which came out of the great tribulation". There is chronological order here. The seventh seal is about to open and the seven trumpets haven't even started. This event is different from the the change in a twinkling of an eye at the seventh trumpet.

Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Note flesh is saved.
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. The first is a flesh body and the second is a spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is a transformation to the incorruptible spirit.
So we have flesh saved because of the elect's sake. Various nations of the earth are brought as a multitude before the throne. They are not yet in the Kingdom of God. This is the rapture. Then in 52 we see the group changed to incorruptible spirits in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
Also look at the passage Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. What just happened? The nations that stood before the throne became the nations of God. When that happens the spiritual bodies can be made.

There are a couple of things that tell you the season of the rapture and the fact that it is consistent with multitude being taken out of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. The background is a little complex, but it involves the fig tree being the forbidden fruit.

I am going to show two examples to support this, there is much more, but I will not post it unless someone is interested in seeing what I have found.

Mark 11: 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. He rode into Jerusalem as the new King. He went back to the beginning and turned over the money tables to show the destruction of the root of evil which is love of money and what better place to do it than in the temple. The root for evil would be on the tree of knowledge; so, the next morning he finds no fruit on the fig tree, curses it and tells you not to eat from it ever again. Sound like what God said to Adam and Eve?
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: The tree will not bear false fruit for his people anymore. They will be taken before summer. The rapture is a late spring event by the indication.
The next passage confirms it is a midtribulation event. The first 1260 days have occured and the last 1260 with the testimony of the two witnesses is starting.
Luke13:6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The tree hasn't born fruit for three years, and it will be cut down in the fourth if it doesn't bear fruit. Just like the first three years of the tribulation in the fourth year is beginning of the great tribulation. The knowledge for evil is failing it doesn't bear fruit. The fourth year is the culmination of awakening and understanding of the mysteries of the scriptures. The rapture takes place. I don't know the hour and the day, but here is what we can derive from scriptures.
1. It is an event that takes place after the opening of the sixth seal. The worldwide earthquake has taken place. The winds stop, then the 144,000 are sealed, and the multitude is taken. For this event to be at the last trumpet the it would have to occur simultaneously. Nowhere in scripture does it say the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are together. All indications is it follows chronological and numerical sequence. First seven seals then seven trumpets.
2. The fig tree will not bear fruit for those of the flock. Christ says in Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: It is going to happen probably in late spring.
3. Luke 13 tells you the fourth year is coming and the fig tree is cut down. This would be a midtribulation rapture.

One last thing that I need to add that is misinterpreted by Paul. 1Thessalonians4:15 According to the Lordís word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the spam, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice he says those who are still alive and will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Apparently, Paul is is either of the two endtime witnesses or of the 144,000. Those in the clouds are the multitude of nations brought before the throne. They are about to be transformed to the incorruptible spirit.
 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way


Read what I posted and I bet you will never post it^^^ again.

Like I said..no conjecture in that post.

Word for word PROOF..and all the false church doctrines fall apart at its touch/....IF you stop being a church robot for moment and read for yourself whats in there instead of regurguitating the same old hal lindsay rubbish.

I think what jesus actually said has more weight to it than what a bloke who had made a stack of false prohecies has.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


You are wrong. You can't argue with this. No church robot here.
 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way


If you had read my post..twice..you would have seen how what you posted is torn to shreds.

You are being a robot becaue before my eyes were opened to the truth about all this I too beleived what you posted and spread it around like a bot as well never once questioning it.

Like you wont question it.

But you will see soon enough.

No one gets out till the last trump.

jesus Himself said that many times.

And..well..if you had read my post you would clearly see over and obver again in scripture after scpriture when the LAST trump is.

Now try reading it.

You may get a shock..because you have been LIED to..all of the pre trubbers have been..as I was as well for decades.