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For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

 
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
As to Wrath.. the very last act of God's Wrath is that Lake of Fire.. so in that sense there is no Post Wrath "Rapture".

It seems to me that the Pre-Trib assertions are confusing the terms "tribulation" and "and God's Wrath".

The Martyrdom of Stephen draw as it were in the Book of Acts a 'red line' that demarks the start of that Tibulation of Those Days..

Be real careful about the application of Gabriels words.. as found in the book of Daniel. .. or you will start to seriously wonder if the Gathering Together in a Second Coming did not really happen perhaps in 73.5 A.D.

There is very little 'history' of the followers of Jesus from 73.5 A.D. to around 120 A.D. a great pregnant pause as it were.

For real fun and games just try to find the exact phrase in the English such as the KJV the exact phrase "Second Coming"... (or without capitals).. and see what results you get..

I find there are alot of terms that teachings use that in the English teachings cannot be find in such perfect clear words such as "rapture' or 'second coming'.. in some cases such terms are but from a derived understanding and then futhre 'labeling' for easy reference to the teaching not necessarily easily reference to the actual Scripture's text's words.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Not appointed to God's wrath...Believe in the blessed catching away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42413545

That verse is referring to the remnant of Gods people who are still alive and will be regathered (read Isaiah).
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Abomination of Desolation


1. Placed there (Daniel 11: 31)

2. Set Up (Daniel 12: 11)

3. Seen standing (Mt. 24: 15)


Placed there, set up, and seen standing.



"And he (the false prophet) deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast (anti-christ), telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

"He was granted power TO GIVE BREATH TO THE IMAGE of the beast, that the image of the beast SHOULD BOTH SPEAK AND CAUSE AS MANY AS WOULD NOT WORSHIP THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST TO BE KILLED.

"And he cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Rev 13: 14-17)



The Abomination appears to be a statue made in the likeness of the man of evil that is able to talk,,,,,,and also put people to death.


At the Holy Place in Jerusalem, it is:


Placed there
Set Up
Seen standing
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Why would the LORD need the 144,000 if the Church was still here? The Old Testament is for the Jews, also for our learning. In the New Testament we have the LORD on the cross, died buried and arose. There is when everything is new for the believers in CHRIST. The non believers will be left, the evil ones that want to destroy the earth. The Blessed Hope is that JESUS CHRIST will call HIS to the heavens with a "Come up here." HE promised that we would not go through the tribulation. We will be changed in a twinkling of the eye and be with the LORD for ever and ever. We will return with HIM on white horses, all clothed in white linen. HIS (remember chosen that is mostly Israel), will be preached to by the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, and the two prophets that will come forth, many of the lost will be saved. The 7 trumps are blown by angels, but the TRUMP OF GOD, will call HIS home, that is the rapture! It is in the bible, read it. Pray that you will escape these things that are about to fall on the earth.
 Quoting: sandpiper


The 144,000 are not Jews--only 1 tribe was--they were Hebrew Israelites--Gods chosen people.He promised 1 group they would not go through the end time trib--the remaining Hebrew Israelites who are alive today--the remnant spoken of in tons of places esp Isaiah. God said he would reach out his arm to gather them and who are these people who fly like doves to their nests referring to the remnant.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
everyone else will be here until the second coming
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The seventh trumpet IS the bowls.
\
The trumpets are NOT listed as wrath but the bowls are.

And the seventh trumpet..IS the bowls..like the sevent seal..IS the trumpets.


*********************************


The 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal. And also a great multitude shows up in heaven at that time.


The fifth trumpet is most definitely part of God's wrath.


"They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

"And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months."


7th Seal......the seven trumpet judgments. The 7th trumpet ushers in the bowl judgments.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time

By its context what Time was it this 'this time'? Who is he speaking to? His Disciples sitting there at Mt Olivet that very day, not many days from his death.. When He used the term 'this day'.. if the English is a very accurate translation of the Greek there, then we can only concluded that 'this day' was in reference to the 'standard mark' of 33 A.D... and definitely not 2013 A.D. for instance.

In this case, in this derivation, He would being meaning, from the advent of Adam right up until 33 A.D. there had never been such a great tribulation as what was coming.. but these tell us nothing about how long that tribulation was to last, nor if there have not been even many other and even great tribulations since that one started..

The Pre-Trib assertions have their definite problems, but to be sure the Pre-Wrath also seems to have its share of difficulties..

I constantly remind myself that the US Constitution is aroud 224 years old, and in English.. and over vastly few pages of text, and we cannot even agree on its meaning, not in 100% agreement, not even the nine Supreme Court Justices always agree 100% in the interpretation and appliation of the text of the US Constitution.. and when it comes to a text that is no newer inj its original source than perhaps 1,900 years old and in a Kione Greek language... (as to the New Testament) and that we only have copies of copies an not like the US Constitution which very original document and its paper and ink still remain to this day to be seen.. though there be millions of copies of it.. when it comes to the Scriptures we simply do not have that sort of thing at hand..

With such great difficulties then how can it be that Loving peoples would go to literal war with each other as to their own derived understandings of the New Testament?
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I responded in green. After awhile, there is no point to respond. Your logic is flawed.

ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: ]Where does this occur? The coming of the Son of Man!!!! What part of Revelation is consistent with this? Revelation 6!!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME EVENT DESCRIBED IN MATTHEW!!!!!30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. You just described a flesh event. From biblehub.com KJV Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So, what is going to be saved? FLLEEESSSHHHH!!!!
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. So here you go, the saving of flesh. What did it just say? FOR THEN WHAT OCCURS???? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!! Where do we see this event talked about??? HEEEEEEEERRRRREEE!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. WHAT DID THE ELDER JUST SAY!!! THAT'S RIGHT, THEY WERE TAKEN OUT OF WHAT????? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!!NOT BEFORE, AND NOT AFTER BUT OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!! AND.... we know from above by our Savior that after this rapture Matthew 21: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The great tribulation has just started according to the Savior of this world. These aren't my words. They are his.
Back to Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) WHERE DOES THIS HAPPEN!!!! RIGHT HEEEEEEEREEEE!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? What does Paul say we will escape??? The Day of Wrath. The people of the world just told you it has started.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
You need to read Ephesians 4 to figure out who the elect are and where they came from. From biblehub.com Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. When Christ died and went into the earth, the elect were taken and deposited in this time for a mission. Some know who they are and some don't. The first will be last and the last will be first. This generation will not pass. When Christ was resurrected, the elect came out of the graves and appeared to many. You will see in Matthew 24 that the disciples ask him when the end will come. First he predicts the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and then fast forwards to this time. The two witnesses are referred to as two olive trees and lampstands for a reason. The life of an olive tree is about 70 years. The first was from birth of Christ to 70 AD. This time started marking the last generation or life of an olive tree in 1948 with the Israel becoming a nation again. The 70 years is almost up. The complete parousia will take care of the awakening. Why do you think Paul considers himself among the living here on earth at the end? Why do you think he says he will be called up into the clouds with the multitude at the seventh and last trumpet? The first resurrection takes place and what is left after the Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days are taken up.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
You can't find anywhere in the bible that says the spiritual transformation to become of the Kingdom of the Lord is anywhere other than at the seventh trumpet. This is another event. The rapture takes place first. It says one will be taken and another left in the field. What would be the point of such a deliverance if the battle is won at armageddon by Christ and the world transformed to his Kingdom? What would the person in the field be delivered from? From biblegateway.com 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What did he just say? Caught up with those in the clouds. What is already before the throne in flesh? THE MULTITUDE!!!!!!!!

Now what happens at the last trumpet? From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as Paul said in 1Corinthians 15. Now the nations of the world are transformed to the incorruptible spiritual bodies because the kingdom of this world has been made what??? THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Personal pinning it to read tomorrow. Thanks OP
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
 Quoting: 0_0


No they are the SAME event.

If you had bothered to read the post you would have seen the incontrovertable proof of that.

Now go and have a read.

Really..itsall there.

Solid proof.

It cant be debunked.

I tried and could not do it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

Thanks, OP. I have been warning the deluded church for years about this. All of the allegories, stories, parables, etc say the same thing. The rapture is after the tribulation. Specifically, it is 40 days into the 1-year Day of the Lord.

What I saw was how much of the Bible shows the post-trib rapture. In fact, it became clear that the moment you hold to the pre-trib rapture, much of the hidden and detailed meaning of the word becomes lost to you. It is a foundational understanding and a key to decoding the Lord's allegories and parables. Without the proper understanding of the rapture, many of the stories become disconnected from each other.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The seventh trumpet IS the bowls.
\
The trumpets are NOT listed as wrath but the bowls are.

And the seventh trumpet..IS the bowls..like the sevent seal..IS the trumpets.


*********************************


The 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal. And also a great multitude shows up in heaven at that time.


The fifth trumpet is most definitely part of God's wrath.


"They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

"And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months."


7th Seal......the seven trumpet judgments. The 7th trumpet ushers in the bowl judgments.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302253


The Trumpets are announcments.. the cups are what is to be poured out on the Earth and man..

Also notice that the 144,000 is a very select group.. and one of the Tribes mentioned with 12,000 select is the Tribe of Joseph...

But do remember that all the born again are engrafted into the tree of Israel.. in that sense then all Christians are in fact a part of the Tree of Israel (as it is). This troubles some in a big way.

But never mistake that the current State of Israel necessarily has anything to do with that Biblical Israel, a term which has many many different meanings depending nearly upon which book or even paragraph of the text you are reading it from.

The so called "Whore of Babylon" are those who have first having become Wife of GOD.. then have decided to go awhoring.. after other gods, these could be seen as UnFaithful-Israel.. yet, the Woman of Rev 12 then can be deemed to be seen as Faithful Israel..
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I responded in red. After awhile, there is no point to respond. Your logic is flawed.

ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: Where does this occur? The coming of the Son of Man!!!! What part of Revelation is consistent with this? Revelation 6!!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME EVENT DESCRIBED IN MATTHEW!!!!!30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. You just described a flesh event. From biblehub.com KJV Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So, what is going to be saved? FLLEEESSSHHHH!!!!
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. So here you go, the saving of flesh. What did it just say? FOR THEN WHAT OCCURS???? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!! Where do we see this event talked about??? HEEEEEEEERRRRREEE!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. WHAT DID THE ELDER JUST SAY!!! THAT'S RIGHT, THEY WERE TAKEN OUT OF WHAT????? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!!NOT BEFORE, AND NOT AFTER BUT OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!! AND.... we know from above by our Savior that after this rapture Matthew 21: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The great tribulation has just started according to the Savior of this world. These aren't my words. They are his.
Back to Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) WHERE DOES THIS HAPPEN!!!! RIGHT HEEEEEEEREEEE!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? What does Paul say we will escape??? The Day of Wrath. The people of the world just told you it has started.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
You need to read Ephesians 4 to figure out who the elect are and where they came from. From biblehub.com Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. When Christ died and went into the earth, the elect were taken and deposited in this time for a mission. Some know who they are and some don't. The first will be last and the last will be first. This generation will not pass. When Christ was resurrected, the elect came out of the graves and appeared to many. You will see in Matthew 24 that the disciples ask him when the end will come. First he predicts the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and then fast forwards to this time. The two witnesses are referred to as two olive trees and lampstands for a reason. The life of an olive tree is about 70 years. The first was from birth of Christ to 70 AD. This time started marking the last generation or life of an olive tree in 1948 with the Israel becoming a nation again. The 70 years is almost up. The complete parousia will take care of the awakening. Why do you think Paul considers himself among the living here on earth at the end? Why do you think he says he will be called up into the clouds with the multitude at the seventh and last trumpet? The first resurrection takes place and what is left after the Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days are taken up.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
You can't find anywhere in the bible that says the spiritual transformation to become of the Kingdom of the Lord is anywhere other than at the seventh trumpet. This is another event. The rapture takes place first. It says one will be taken and another left in the field. What would be the point of such a deliverance if the battle is won at armageddon by Christ and the world transformed to his Kingdom? What would the person in the field be delivered from? From biblegateway.com 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What did he just say? Caught up with those in the clouds. What is already before the throne in flesh? THE MULTITUDE!!!!!!!!

Now what happens at the last trumpet? From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. Didn't you say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as did Paul? Now the nations of the world are transformed to the incorruptible spiritual bodies because the kingdom of this world has been made what??? THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way



You must have not read anything I wrote then becase its clear as day what "TAKEN" means in this scripture..its just you have been taught to read the opposite of that it means..like I was until I stopped listening to church bots selling books and saw what he actually SAID which was..

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL..theywere "TAKEN)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.


Oh please wake up and see the LIES they have been telling us in the name of money and ease...
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I responded in red. After awhile, there is no point to respond. Your logic is flawed.

ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: Where does this occur? The coming of the Son of Man!!!! What part of Revelation is consistent with this? Revelation 6!!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME EVENT DESCRIBED IN MATTHEW!!!!!30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. You just described a flesh event. From biblehub.com KJV Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So, what is going to be saved? FLLEEESSSHHHH!!!!
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. So here you go, the saving of flesh. What did it just say? FOR THEN WHAT OCCURS???? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!! Where do we see this event talked about??? HEEEEEEEERRRRREEE!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. WHAT DID THE ELDER JUST SAY!!! THAT'S RIGHT, THEY WERE TAKEN OUT OF WHAT????? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!!NOT BEFORE, AND NOT AFTER BUT OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!! AND.... we know from above by our Savior that after this rapture Matthew 21: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The great tribulation has just started according to the Savior of this world. These aren't my words. They are his.
Back to Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) WHERE DOES THIS HAPPEN!!!! RIGHT HEEEEEEEREEEE!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? What does Paul say we will escape??? The Day of Wrath. The people of the world just told you it has started.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
You need to read Ephesians 4 to figure out who the elect are and where they came from. From biblehub.com Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. When Christ died and went into the earth, the elect were taken and deposited in this time for a mission. Some know who they are and some don't. The first will be last and the last will be first. This generation will not pass. When Christ was resurrected, the elect came out of the graves and appeared to many. You will see in Matthew 24 that the disciples ask him when the end will come. First he predicts the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and then fast forwards to this time. The two witnesses are referred to as two olive trees and lampstands for a reason. The life of an olive tree is about 70 years. The first was from birth of Christ to 70 AD. This time started marking the last generation or life of an olive tree in 1948 with the Israel becoming a nation again. The 70 years is almost up. The complete parousia will take care of the awakening. Why do you think Paul considers himself among the living here on earth at the end? Why do you think he says he will be called up into the clouds with the multitude at the seventh and last trumpet? The first resurrection takes place and what is left after the Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days are taken up.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
You can't find anywhere in the bible that says the spiritual transformation to become of the Kingdom of the Lord is anywhere other than at the seventh trumpet. This is another event. The rapture takes place first. It says one will be taken and another left in the field. What would be the point of such a deliverance if the battle is won at armageddon by Christ and the world transformed to his Kingdom? What would the person in the field be delivered from? From biblegateway.com 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What did he just say? Caught up with those in the clouds. What is already before the throne in flesh? THE MULTITUDE!!!!!!!!

Now what happens at the last trumpet? From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. Didn't you say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as did Paul? Now the nations of the world are transformed to the incorruptible spiritual bodies because the kingdom of this world has been made what??? THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


You must have not read anything I wrote then becase its clear as day what "TAKEN" means in this scripture..its just you have been taught to read the opposite of that it means..like I was until I stopped listening to church bots selling books and saw what he actually SAID which was..

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL..theywere "TAKEN)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.


Oh please wake up and see the LIES they have been telling us in the name of money and ease...


Start of my post

You have no idea what the days of Noah mean do you? The signs have been here for quite some time. I am awake and know what is going on. You will learn, but the rapture is not the way you are explaining it. It is a flesh event. The seventh trumpet is the transformation to the second Adam incorruptible spirit when the Kingdom of the world is transformed to the Kingdom of God.

The world that is around you has emerged from the flood. The nephilim and the hybrid offspring that falsely rule this world from a dark, blood money are system are failing. Here is a post from another thread that is the beginning of explaining why the tentacles of the mystery babylon are in the US.

The birthplace of Christ is not 666 miles from "the kaaba" in mecca by accident nor is the birthplace of hitler in branau im inn, austria 666 miles from the Isle of Wight (a major satanic center in europe) by accident. This world has been shaped by satan and the nephilim from the beginning of recorded time until now. The gig is up for them. Flying saucers don't have hieroglyphics and islamic works written on them by accident either. You think I am kidding you? Think again. Look at what night goggles show you at the end of the visible spectrum [link to www.youtube.com] Check out edgrimsley.com and his youtube videos/interviews. Paul told us that we battle against what is not seen. The dark resurrection and imprisonment of visible light is controlled by an egyptian pyramid process. The NLat is 29.9792458 in the grand chamber of the great pyramid. The speed of light in a vacuum is 299,792,458 m/sec. THE SAME SET OF NUMBERS!!!! Watch this stuff manifest as the Holy Spirit recedes at the rapture. The Roswell crash is not exactly on the other side of the world from mt.hermon either and on the 33rd parallel and in new mexico which makes 666 in gematria. The trasnfiguration of Christ was on the top of mt. hermon. This is the same place where 200 nephilim made a pact against God and satan is to crash to earth as a bolt of lightning.The feast day for the Transfiguration is not the same day of the nuclear blast of Hiroshima by accident on 06 August. The 33rd parallel separates Hiroshima from Nagasaki. The first test was done at the trinity site close to the 33rd parallel in New Mexico and is conveniently 666 miles from Mt. Rushmore. The bombing was approved by the 33rd president who was a 33rd degree mason and started the Un which has an emblem with 33 sections.


Those on here who think Jesus is lucifer are either satanic plants or completely fooled. The lineage of cain brought forth the baphomet process from the base of mt. hermon (33rd NLat) where the phoenicians and the lost tribe of dan worshipped baal, pan, baphomet with child and animal sacrifice to usher in the antichrist in flesh in this generation. Christ was declared the Son of the living God by Peter at the very gates of hell (Caesar Philippi) where the despicable rituals took place. The resurrection to light is through Christ and the dark resurrection is through satan and will be in the form of the corrupted natural lifeforce of the beast, the antichrist. The natural (first Adam) has always been the battleground.

lucifer is the phoenix ( hacked word for Phoenician X -firebird) used by the mayans. This X is the symbol of nimrod and the ode to lucifer is in the dogmas and principles of masonry by a devout luciferian, Albert Pike. He knew he was of the fallen third of the angels and wore a 33 medallion. The dark scottish rite masonry follows the antichrist and lucifer. The "X" flag is over that country. The Union Jack or Union of Jacob shows the cross breaking the x and the ultimate victory of Christ over the antichrist, the beast/baphomet. The lineage of cain and the tribe of dan are being defeated. The 144,000 of the true tribes of Israel will be awakened through perfect redemption and be given the seal of God soon. dan is nowhere to be found in this group.

The center of the city of phoenix (33rd NLat) is exactly 666 miles from bohemian grove. This is a place (bg) complicit with the worship of the dark money (omen at the Y chromosome) god, moloch. The higher ups who are captains of industry, government leaders, etc, are all seeds of crowley, rockefeller, rothschild, etc. They are hybrids and fallen angels. They know it. The cremation of care is the desire to destroy the image of God. The fact that it is conducted in sonoma county yields another hacked word for "Son of Man".

The rosslyn chapel was completed in 1492 and the false discovery of America was done by columbus. In reverse the word is sub - moloch. This is what has been telling you the lies of false history in this so called New World. It is actually the old world and has risen from the depths of the flood. The national park system is designed to cover up the preflood works, and all et type/ufo activity is denied because the ones behind national security serve lucifer and do not want you to know what tries to rule you. The US is an old spiritual fight where there was either growth of Israel or Egypt. If anyone cares to listen, I can prove it.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I responded in red. After awhile, there is no point to respond. Your logic is flawed.

ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: Where does this occur? The coming of the Son of Man!!!! What part of Revelation is consistent with this? Revelation 6!!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME EVENT DESCRIBED IN MATTHEW!!!!!30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. You just described a flesh event. From biblehub.com KJV Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So, what is going to be saved? FLLEEESSSHHHH!!!!
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. So here you go, the saving of flesh. What did it just say? FOR THEN WHAT OCCURS???? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!! Where do we see this event talked about??? HEEEEEEEERRRRREEE!!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. WHAT DID THE ELDER JUST SAY!!! THAT'S RIGHT, THEY WERE TAKEN OUT OF WHAT????? THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!!NOT BEFORE, AND NOT AFTER BUT OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!!!! AND.... we know from above by our Savior that after this rapture Matthew 21: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The great tribulation has just started according to the Savior of this world. These aren't my words. They are his.
Back to Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) WHERE DOES THIS HAPPEN!!!! RIGHT HEEEEEEEREEEE!!! From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? What does Paul say we will escape??? The Day of Wrath. The people of the world just told you it has started.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
You need to read Ephesians 4 to figure out who the elect are and where they came from. From biblehub.com Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. When Christ died and went into the earth, the elect were taken and deposited in this time for a mission. Some know who they are and some don't. The first will be last and the last will be first. This generation will not pass. When Christ was resurrected, the elect came out of the graves and appeared to many. You will see in Matthew 24 that the disciples ask him when the end will come. First he predicts the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and then fast forwards to this time. The two witnesses are referred to as two olive trees and lampstands for a reason. The life of an olive tree is about 70 years. The first was from birth of Christ to 70 AD. This time started marking the last generation or life of an olive tree in 1948 with the Israel becoming a nation again. The 70 years is almost up. The complete parousia will take care of the awakening. Why do you think Paul considers himself among the living here on earth at the end? Why do you think he says he will be called up into the clouds with the multitude at the seventh and last trumpet? The first resurrection takes place and what is left after the Great Tribulation, the last 1260 days are taken up.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
You can't find anywhere in the bible that says the spiritual transformation to become of the Kingdom of the Lord is anywhere other than at the seventh trumpet. This is another event. The rapture takes place first. It says one will be taken and another left in the field. What would be the point of such a deliverance if the battle is won at armageddon by Christ and the world transformed to his Kingdom? What would the person in the field be delivered from? From biblegateway.com 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What did he just say? Caught up with those in the clouds. What is already before the throne in flesh? THE MULTITUDE!!!!!!!!

Now what happens at the last trumpet? From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. Didn't you say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as did Paul? Now the nations of the world are transformed to the incorruptible spiritual bodies because the kingdom of this world has been made what??? THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


You must have not read anything I wrote then becase its clear as day what "TAKEN" means in this scripture..its just you have been taught to read the opposite of that it means..like I was until I stopped listening to church bots selling books and saw what he actually SAID which was..

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL..theywere "TAKEN)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.


Oh please wake up and see the LIES they have been telling us in the name of money and ease...
 Quoting: Jesus Christ is the way


Start of my post

You have no idea what the days of Noah mean do you? The signs have been here for quite some time. I am awake and know what is going on. You will learn, but the rapture is not the way you are explaining it. It is a flesh event. The seventh trumpet is the transformation to the second Adam incorruptible spirit when the Kingdom of the world is transformed to the Kingdom of God.

The world that is around you has emerged from the flood. The nephilim and the hybrid offspring that falsely rule this world from a dark, blood money are system are failing. Here is a post from another thread that is the beginning of explaining why the tentacles of the mystery babylon are in the US.

The birthplace of Christ is not 666 miles from "the kaaba" in mecca by accident nor is the birthplace of hitler in branau im inn, austria 666 miles from the Isle of Wight (a major satanic center in europe) by accident. This world has been shaped by satan and the nephilim from the beginning of recorded time until now. The gig is up for them. Flying saucers don't have hieroglyphics and islamic works written on them by accident either. You think I am kidding you? Think again. Look at what night goggles show you at the end of the visible spectrum [link to www.youtube.com] Check out edgrimsley.com and his youtube videos/interviews. Paul told us that we battle against what is not seen. The dark resurrection and imprisonment of visible light is controlled by an egyptian pyramid process. The NLat is 29.9792458 in the grand chamber of the great pyramid. The speed of light in a vacuum is 299,792,458 m/sec. THE SAME SET OF NUMBERS!!!! Watch this stuff manifest as the Holy Spirit recedes at the rapture. The Roswell crash is not exactly on the other side of the world from mt.hermon either and on the 33rd parallel and in new mexico which makes 666 in gematria by coincidence. The transfiguration of Christ was on the top of mt. hermon. This is the same place where 200 nephilim made a pact against God and satan is to crash to earth as a bolt of lightning.The feast day for the Transfiguration is not the same day of the nuclear blast of Hiroshima by accident on 06 August. The 33rd parallel separates Hiroshima from Nagasaki. The first test was done at the trinity site close to the 33rd parallel in New Mexico and is conveniently 666 miles from Mt. Rushmore. The bombing was approved by the 33rd president who was a 33rd degree mason and started the Un which has an emblem with 33 sections.


Those on here who think Jesus is lucifer are either satanic plants or completely fooled. The lineage of cain brought forth the baphomet process from the base of mt. hermon (33rd NLat) where the phoenicians and the lost tribe of dan worshipped baal, pan, baphomet with child and animal sacrifice to usher in the antichrist in flesh in this generation. Christ was declared the Son of the living God by Peter at the very gates of hell (Caesar Philippi) where the despicable rituals took place. The resurrection to light is through Christ and the dark resurrection is through satan and will be in the form of the corrupted natural lifeforce of the beast, the antichrist. The natural (first Adam) has always been the battleground.

lucifer is the phoenix ( hacked word for Phoenician X -firebird) used by the mayans. This X is the symbol of nimrod and the ode to lucifer is in the dogmas and principles of masonry by a devout luciferian, Albert Pike. He knew he was of the fallen third of the angels and wore a 33 medallion. The dark scottish rite masonry follows the antichrist and lucifer. The "X" flag is over that country. The Union Jack or Union of Jacob shows the cross breaking the x and the ultimate victory of Christ over the antichrist, the beast/baphomet. The lineage of cain and the tribe of dan are being defeated. The 144,000 of the true tribes of Israel will be awakened through perfect redemption and be given the seal of God soon. dan is nowhere to be found in this group.

The center of the city of phoenix (33rd NLat) is exactly 666 miles from bohemian grove. This is a place (bg) complicit with the worship of the dark money (omen at the Y chromosome) god, moloch. The higher ups who are captains of industry, government leaders, etc, are all seeds of crowley, rockefeller, rothschild, etc. They are hybrids and fallen angels. They know it. The cremation of care is the desire to destroy the image of God. The fact that it is conducted in sonoma county yields another hacked word for "Son of Man".

The rosslyn chapel was completed in 1492 and the false discovery of America was done by columbus. In reverse the word is sub - moloch. This is what has been telling you the lies of false history in this so called New World. It is actually the old world and has risen from the depths of the flood. The national park system is designed to cover up the preflood works, and all et type/ufo activity is denied because the ones behind national security serve lucifer and do not want you to know what tries to rule you. The US is an old spiritual fight where there was either growth of Israel or Egypt. If anyone cares to listen, I can prove it.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Ok then.

Lets hear it.

Im interested.

Even if some of its wrong it might also tie into other things that we have been bamboozled about.

There is one thing ive learnt in this life and thats NEVER NOT read anything..because even bullshit has its learning points and might NOT turn out to be bullshit after all.

The only way to find out is READ it.

So..go for it.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OBVIOUSLY you have NOT read where GOD SAYS; MY CHILDREN " ARE NOT" appointed unto wrath!!!
You can stay and go through the 7 years of the great tribulation all you want. I WILL BE IN GLORY WITH MY FATHER AND THE OTHER SAVES GLPer's!!!!
Toodles!!! Tah-Tah!!
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Here's a sting of posts from another thread. This is a long and involved subject, but this gets to the core of the matter concerning how dark masonry has shaped this world and what the ultimate goals are. Remember what I said about the kaaba being 666 miles from Christ' birthplace and you can see the worldwide dark design to capture the souls of the muslim world.


From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In simple numerology Malcolm = 6 Little "old name" = 6 and "X" (the sign of nimrod) = 6.

From wikipedia.org

An excerpt on malcolm x -- -After living in a series of foster homes, at age 15 Little went to live with a half-sister, Ella Little Collins, in Roxbury, a largely African-American neighborhood of Boston, where he held a variety of jobs. After a short time in Flint, Michigan, Little moved to Harlem, New York, in 1943, where he engaged in drug dealing, gambling, racketeering, robbery, and pimping; according to recent biographies, he also occasionally had sex with other men, usually for money. He was called "Detroit Red" because of the reddish hair he inherited from his Scottish maternal grandfather. Little was declared "mentally disqualified for military service" after he told draft board officials he was eager to "steal us some guns, and kill us [some] crackers".
In late 1945, Little returned to Boston, where he and four accomplices committed a series of burglaries targeting wealthy white families. In 1946, he was arrested while picking up a stolen watch he had left at a shop for repairs, and in February began serving an eight- to ten-year sentence at Charlestown State Prison. There he met John Bembry, a self-educated man he would later describe as "the first man I had ever seen command total respect ... with words"; under Bembry's influence, Little developed a voracious appetite for reading.

Nation of Islam
During Little's imprisonment several of his siblings wrote to him about the Nation of Islam, a relatively new religious movement preaching black self-reliance and, ultimately, the reunification of the African diaspora with Africa, free from white American and European domination. He showed scant interest at first, but after his brother Reginald wrote in 1948, "Malcolm, don't eat any more pork and don't smoke any more cigarettes. I'll show you how to get out of prison," he quit smoking and began to refuse pork. After a visit in which Reginald described the group's teachings, including the belief that white people are devils, Little came to the conclusion that every relationship he'd had with whites had been tainted by dishonesty, injustice, greed, and hatred. Little, whose hostility to religion had earned him the prison nickname "Satan", began to reconsider his dismissal of all religion and he became receptive to the message of the Nation of Islam.
The coming destruction is of the mystery babylon. The country at the forefront of the spiritual conflict is the US. It fails to serve God, his laws and accept his Son, Jesus Christ, as Savior and therefore is not receiving blessing and continuing to be growth of the Kingdom and spiritual Israel yet... Instead, it takes the ways of darkness which recoil to the dark seed of sodom and egypt.

here are some things I posted in another thread that get to the heart of the matter.

I am saying the spirit of the antichrist is going to take the form of malcolm x. The US is the greatest extent of the mystery babylon. The dark masonic rite of memphis the 90 the degree is where Memphis,TN is. God says he will destroy Memphis in the endtimes. MLK was assassinated on 90 degrees WLongitude.

Omaha is on 96th WLongitude. It is where malcolm x was born. The 96th degree is the rite of egypt or mizraim which is what missouri is trying to form in the spiritual fight. The 97th degree which runs through Winnipeg Manitoba and the dark esoteric legislative building is close to where JFK was assasinated plus it is close to the 33rd parallel for dark double whammy in Dallas D"alla"s - saladin (first sultan of egypt and syria - born in tikrit, iraq (mesopotamia) coronated in cairo and died in damascus, syria) - "in dallas" another word in spiritual fight. The 97th degree is reserved for the grand hierophant or the dark pope. This is where the false prophet or "second beast" is concocted spiritually.

This passage in the bible is key. From biblehub.com KJV Revelation 17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. From biblegateway.com NIV Zechariah 11: 13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord. 14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel. (more on this later)
15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.
17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!”
This is being complicit in the resurrected being of the one seeing eye in the left socket and a functioning left hand for "the left handed path".
Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
In simple numerology Malcolm = 6 Little "old name" = 6 and "X" (the sign of nimrod) = 6.

Some where in Omaha is EXACTLY 666 miles from the underground nephilim labs to genetically modify humans and other creatures at Dulce, NM. This is in a state that the words New Mexico make 666 in Jewish gematria, and had the devil's highway in it numbered 666 for decades.

From earlier posts, you can see where malcolm was a prostitute for men in New York. New York is the only other state that makes 666 in gematria. This is consistent with the spirit of sodomy and the spirit of egypt is shown. This is what will prevail over Jerusalem during the abomination of desolation. And God will destroy egypt in the endtimes from what he says in Ezekiel 29:12.

You can see the words mimicking omaha in false religion and masonry. "mahabone", "mahdi" , "nag hammadi" ham mahdi? We know the seed for homosexuality was in Ham from looking at his drunk father. The lies from the clay pots cannot mix with iron as in Daniel. That is what the Nag Hammadi manuscripts were found in in egypt.

Even islam says there is a one eyed dajjal to come that will deceive the world. What is over the pyramid on the dollar and illuminati symbols? One eye. For darkness it is the left eye, and the left hand is prominent. It is interesting that the last three presidents have been left handed. To the Arab culture, this is a cursed hand because it is what you wipe your butt with.

That is a point in egyptology. The orifice of waste does not exist in the spiritual body. In flesh is the result of the individual taking lust (sin) and creating waste just like what is done to this world in consumption mode. The dung beetle (the scarab and baracs in reverse) is sacred to them. This would perpetuate the formation of waste and create the abomination of two men together. Higher ups in darkness are complicit with this ritual and you can read about aliester crowley's invovlement in disgusting dark rituals involving homosexuality, feces, and the creation of dark portals in egypt to usher the endtimes in. Here's a link to what they do:
[link to www.parareligion.ch] I also recommend using bing and going searching the words "A Brief Introduction to the Antient and Primitive Rite of Memphis and Mizraim or Egyptian Masonry". Now you understand why the method of dark madness to create the final destruction of mankind is through the spirit of egypt and sodomy which mysteriously prevails over the US and for most of the world brought under the dark blood money system.

Bing maps is what really redflagged me when I saw the landing site for the first Eurpoean settlement in St. Augustine, Fl. I did the calculation it is almost exactly 666 miles from the Washington Monument that is 666 feet tall from the foundation bottom to the top and 555 feet above is 6660 inches. Those WM measurements I got from Tom Horn's work. The rest is what I found. What is more surprising is the first Christian mission is about 667 miles and marked by the "Great Cross" and the Nombre de Dios Mission location
[link to www.bing.com] With the compass point on the map at DC, the sweep takes you just left of Cairo, Il. This the probable location of an epicenter for a New Madrid Faultline eruption.

I did another sweep from NY City and to my surprise the distance was close to 666 miles to the Georgia Guidestones. I made an attempt to find the location of the satanic church national offices. The indication is it is on 52nd street which just so happens to be right at 666 miles from the Georgia Guidestones.

I put the compass point of St. Augustine and a 666 mile radius sweep put it close to a little Crowley,LA (aleister crowley? and west of the sinkhole) Amazingly enough, the WM 666 mile radius circle and the St. Augustine circle intersect east of Cairo, Ill. If you put the compass point at Merida, MX (mayan pyramid complex) the sweep goes right at Crowley, LA as well.

Then I put the compass point of Austin, Tx which is where michael aquino moved his san francisco temple of set to inexplicably. The sweep almost meets the WM sweep and the St. Augustine sweep east of Cairo, Ill and makes a very small triangle.

Then I decided to put the point on salem, ma. This one is truly spooky and is confirmation that there is an intent by dark forces to do something in this country. There are some strange places in NC and now I have found a correlation to them. These three are right at 666 miles from salem, ma.

This place is right at 666 miles from salem, ma and how would Fleetwood Mac band members know about it and something that obscure find its way to be mentioned in the lyrics?
The following is a post from someone else at another site.

Start of quote "On the discussion board, there was an old post by a guy who said he grew up in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Apparently, the guy had been checking out the online discussions about strange power spots, vortexes and 'Earth anamolies'.

He said that one day in 1969, he and three friends were riding dirt-bike motorcycles in a large forested area near Winston-Salem. He described it as thick forest with bike trails worn through the woods. Deep in the middle of the forest was a large clearing. They had ridden their bikes there many times before, but on this day, when they reached the clearing, they were shocked to see a huge, perfectly round depression in the ground that was probably 80 - 100 feet in diameter . He said it was as if a giant iron ball had been pressed into the ground, buried halfway, and then lifted out. The dirt in the indentation was 'smooth as glass'. There was not a bump or a ripple anywhere. Of course they thought that it had somehow been man-made...dug out with bulldozers or something. But there was no machinery anywhere. There was no way to get any machinery there! There were no roads, just bike trails. They got really spooked and got the hell out of there. From what the guy said, all four of them were pretty spooked.

They went back to town and told some friends. A couple other guys went there shortly thereafter and they saw it too. The weird depression was gone within a few days, as if it was never there.
Now this is weird! ....supposedly someone took some photos, but never gave them to any news people, reporters, etc. The story became quite a local legend. I'm surprised it's not really famous. Maybe because the "mystery circle" was there and gone so quickly?

A couple years later, Fleetwood Mac released their song "Hypnotized". Some of the lyrics definitely sound like the Winston-Salem circle, although the term "pond" is used.

The lyrics:
I remember a talk about North Carolina and a strange, strange pond
You see the sides were like glass
In the thick of a forest, without a road
And if any man's hand ever made that land, then I think it would've showed " End of quote


Now add the devil's tramping ground in Chatham County and the satanic church in pender county. That name pender is a story in itself. "red pen" written in blood. I also think there is something going on with the mothman sitings in WV, but it requires more investigation. I did find later the mounds of Chillicothe, Ohio are in this radius.

I used dulce, nm (where the Phil Schneider story comes from about the war with the et grey types). Interestingly enough, the 666 mile radius goes right on top of "black point" at lake mono, CA. There have been a tremendous number of sitings, and youtube videos about the weirdness of this area including stories about et dreams for those camping there. To the left of it is Yosemite. The word is 666 in gematria. This radius also goes through LA and Long Beach which is the place of other UFO sitings. The dulce 666 radius also goes through omaha which is the birth place of malcolm x.who could be the coming antichrist. Time magazine ask "Is God Dead?" on the cover in April of 1966. The spirit that was, is not, but shall be from Revelation will return, and his name in simple gematria for each word malcolm little and x makes 6,6, and 6. I have done alot of work that is independent of this finding to show the "X" theme is the method of the son of perdition. I am working on another avenue to show the dark intent "on both sides" during WW2 and the esoteric works. Add to the fact that there are only two states that make 666 in Jewish gematria which are ny and nm.

I'll point out a couple just to show you where I am headed. The Normandy Invasion had the beaches named , Omaha, Utah, Juno (wife of Jupiter), Sword, and Gold. Also Dresden was bombed inexplicably unless you see a pattern developing. The sun worship city of the illuminati, astana is on 51 degrees 10 minutes NLat. What is incredible is the chernobyl disaster , the bombing of Dresden, and stonehenge are on this same line. I am working on where the dark seeds are in Europe. It is interesting that the birthplace of hitler in branua im inn, Austria is exactly 666 miles from the Isle of Wight which is a major satanism center in the UK. The flag of the Isle of Wight also has the cracked diamond shape like DC "diamond in the rough".

If an arc is done from the roswell crash site two presidents birthplaces are found nearby the 666 mile sweep. clinton's is close to the 33rd parallel and this mark at hope, AR, and truman's is close at Lamar, MO. He was the 33rd president and a 33rd degree mason and approved the dropping of two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki split by the 33rd parallel as well. The transfiguration of Christ on the 33.3 NLat location of mt.hermon is on the feast day as the dropping of the first bomb on 06 August.

I also found the first nuclear test site "Trinity Site" is almost 666 miles from Mt. Rushmore. There is alot more, but just in this you can see that it is beyond odds and coincidence. There is definitely a dark intent. Let's add one more. From bohemian grove to phoenix, az to the very center of the city is EXACTLY 666 miles. Is this a sacrificial place? Later confirmed (it is the center of the town!!!) This is the hacked word of the phoenician x. On the other end is sonoma county. Sonoma means valley of the moon, and it is the hacked name of "Son of Man".

Also to add to the proof, the dark masons use the rite of memphis for the 90th degree. The longitude that runs through memphis, tennessee is 90 degrees west and also New Orleans. The rite of mizraim is the 96th degree. Also, from the 90 degrees west add 33 degrees and you are EXACTLY on bohemian grove. 96 degrees west goes through Omaha, NE. Imagine that. Mizraim is the Jewish word for egypt. The core of this is what is cast into the from the spiritual fight of good vs. evil. The resulting word is Missouri which is the home of harry s truman who introduced the seed for the destruction of the world by fire. In other words, it is the cursing of light which is the fourth and final basic element of the natural. The ground was cursed by cain. The air was cursed by the spirits of that which died from the offspring of nephilim and earth women. The water was cursed to not be reformed in the new spirit by Christ and his Father. All that passed through the death of the water was Noah and his family. Now the test by fire stands before mankind. Eternal love is the key.

Additionally, I first thought I had found the fallen cross on the map, but after further investigation I found an upside down anarchy "A" which could represent the antichrist, the lawless one.

First align Montgomery, AL and Boston, MA on with a straight edge and draw a line from up above Maine down into the Gulf of Mexico. Several terror type events and false flags line up inexplicably or relatively close to this line. The Boston marathon bombing, the Newtown incident, the Trade Towers disaster, the Pentagon disaster, the VT massacre, Georgia Guidestones, Montgomery, Al ( a whole different work but on the skull and bones number for 32.2 N Lat.), where Hurricane Katrina made landfall, and the Horizon deepwell disaster. I confirmed later that this line runs directly through the center of stonehenge.

Now align Denver with Charlotte, NC. Start a line out in the Pacific and go into the Atlantic. Start with the Denver new world order airport and the murals, Columbine massacre, then the Aurora event, then it crosses Cairo, Illinois where the Madrid Faultline is likely to rupture, then through Knoxville,TN (home of the Scarrabean Society ), the lines cross east of Asheville, and the ending mural of what is in Denver Airport is in the lobby of BOA in Charlotte, and then it ends in the devil's triangle.

Now align your straight edge with Winnipeg, Manitoba and Austin. TX. Draw a line from above that in Canada all the way through to Mexico. Winnipeg, Manitoba is the home for the esoteric legislative building patterned after Solomon's Temple to a degree. Google it. OK City bombing is in line. anthony aquino brought the church of satan to austin as the temple of set, and there is a big satanic community there. If you look at the earlier link about the rite of mizraim (the Jewish word for egypt) you will see this is OTO level dark masonry and where crowley spawned from. The grand hierophant is the 97th degree which is what manitoba and its legislative building are on. Dealy Plaza where Kennedy was shot is nearby 97 degrees west longitude and 33 degrees NLat which would indicate a place of high sacrifice. The fact that one of lines of the upside down "A" for anarchy and three 666 radius rings all intersect slightly to the east of Cairo should tell you something. Add to the fact that God said he would destroy Memphis which has the sixth largest pyramid which is on 90 degrees west longitude and consistent with the rite of memphis in dark masonry and anyone with half a brain can see the US is of the mystery babylon. Also a former illuminati member has a youtube video that says she was at a high sacrifice in Pittsburgh, PA which just happens to be 666 miles away at some point.

The whole thing is spawned from the Washington Monument where the dark interpretation is of sinister egypt. It is the phallus of aton cast into "the diamond in the rough" - (the shape of Washington DC). It separates the virginty (Virginia) from Mary (Maryland) and creates the seed of lust for the birth of the antichrist. The whore of babylon (isis) is represented by the statue of liberty in the harbor of the first capital of the US (New York which is 666 in Jewish gematria). This gives rise to an explanation of the river spewing for from the serpent. From biblehub.com NIV Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

This river is the mississippi. The spiritual fight is for it to say I am isis and the two "pi"s are consistent with trying to control the circumference of a circle and for satan to be the dark architect of masonry through his antichrist spirit. This is why the 666 mile (satan's circle) is spread all of this country in dark sacrificial mode. The formula for a circumference of a circle is 2PiR. This is why the word mississippi is a code word. and pi is used twice. Who controls the radius? The addition of the homosexual agenda to the spirit of egypt is the goal of the mystery babylon. That is to destroy what has God's greatest blessing. The Lord's Prayer says, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." It has been prayed billions of times and surely if our eyes are opened as Cleopas' then we will see what is going on. Either the blessed country is the graft of the seed nation of Israel or it is the unholy growth of the opposite dark ways of egypt.

The fact that the ways of egypt are here in design and the homosexual agenda is being pushed at a fervent pace tells you that the abomination of desolation starts here, and works its way back to the source. The goal would be to destroy the greatest outpost of the Kingdom of God first and the root strength of Christianity and world freedom. That would be in the US.


The first thing to understand in the US particularly is that it is at the forefront of a fight.

From biblegateway.com KJV Revelation 12:4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The fallen angels are here and falsely try to rule. The whole effort has been to destroy man from the fall out of the Garden of Eden. Why do you think there are 365 days in a year? Aren't there 360 degrees in a circle; so, why would there be 5 extra days? These days are satan's attempt in darkness to destroy the first five days of creation. That is why the imperfect unholy pentagram is used with the goat of mendes on it sometimes as though a victory has been made over the first five days.

The 666 is the number of man because it is in the 6th day where the beasts of the land were created and the culmination of that day was the creation of man in the image of the one, true God.

The 6 is used in the design of the star of David and is the where the fight for the natural lifeforce takes place. It can be corrupted through sin and eternally corrupted if the mark of the beast is taken. Christ is the only bridge from the natural (first Adam) to the (second Adam) spiritual. 1Corinthians15 explains it.
6 is the atomic number of carbon upon which all organic things are made. In Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The current day also has the mark of the beast in numerology. 60 seconds = 1 minute 6 + 0 = 6. 60 minutes = 1 hour 6+ 0 = 6. And 24 hours = 1 day 2 + 4 = 6. X is the 24th letter; so 2 + 4 = 6. XXX in pornography is 666 and even the word matrix is man hacked to "ma" and tri-X or man at the mark of the beast. The dark signature is there. You will know a tree by the fruit it bears.

The sixth day can also be found in the Jewish calendar. The year 5773 is almost done. In 2Peter3:8 it says: But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. So, 5773 years can be looked at as 5.773 days. And we know that the days are shortened that flesh might be saved for the elect's sake. Where does that occur at? That would be after the sixth seal is opened. And who is worthy to open this seal over mankind? That would be the perfect man, Jesus Christ. Read Revelation 7 where the 144,000 are sealed and the multitude are brought out of the Great Tribulation before the throne. The seventh day, a day of rest for the multitude, and the seventh seal opened for those left behind that did not honor God in law and accept his Son as a Savior? It is not by accident that the great pyramid is 5776 inches tall nor that the NLat of the grand chamber in it has a coordinate of 29.972458 degrees and is EXACTLY the same numbers as the speed of light in a vacuum at 299,792,458 m/sec.

In sacred geometry when the three dimensional star of David (the light seed for the natural) is put in a circle the points on the bases hit exactly at 19.47 degrees. This is an important number because you have to look at where the battleground would start in the natural between the Kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness. One wants to be fruitful and multiply and the other wants to destroy. Therefore, the signature to accomplish that would be projected into the collective thought and landscape of this planet.

To control and destroy this seed with the ultimate goal of biogenetic engineering and lifeforce manipulation that concept would be to use 19.47 in darkness and start the implosion process and destruction of the image of God. On the other end with salvation through Christ, the effort would be to grow to the spiritual. Obviously, the signature would be say 1948. This is the year Israel became a nation and we know when that happens this generation will not pass. In other words, it will see the end of these finite times.

The spiritual fight can be seen as follows: Here are some facts for you. On 06 Aug 1945, the first nuclear bomb was detonated at Hiroshima. On 09 Aug the second nuclear bomb was detonated at Nagasaki. These two cities are split by the 33rd parallel. This was sanctioned by the 33rd president who was a 33rd degree mason and started the UN and has an emblem that has 33 sections. The test blast was done in New Mexico (666 in gematria) at the "trinity site" close to the 33rd parallel. The Roswell site is exactly on the other side of the earth from mt. hermon as well on the 33rd parallel.
The transfiguration of Christ was at 33.33 NLat at mt. hermon. This is the place where 200 of the fallen made a pact against God and satan is to be cast to earth as a bolt of lightning. Christ has the ultimate power over forces of darkness here. He rules. He is the victor and our Savior.
Christ died at age 33 at 3pm for our sins. He was in the earth for 3 days and brought the saints forth in resurrection with him. Many biblical historians say it was on 03 Apr 33AD. At his ascension, these (the elect) were deposited in this time as apostles, clergy, etc. Read Ephesians 4. The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
God delivered the Jews from egypt at Numbers 33:3 and ask us to call upon him and he will tell you mighty and great things that thou knowest not in Jeremiah 33:3.

Christ is the Savior and with his Father decide where the wheat is separated from the chaff. The third of the fallen are cut by the them. Roswell crash (near 33rd parallel) date 07 Jul 1947 to May 14, 1980 ( 33rd anniversary of the birth of Israel as a nation and life of Christ) = 12,000 days 12,000/360 day prophetic calendar = 33.33
Roswell crash date 07 Jul 1947 to 22 Mar 2013 = 24,000 days
Birth of Israel May 14, 1948 to 22 Mar 1981 one year anniversary of Georgia Guidestones 22 Mar (322 Skull and Bones number) = 12,000 days
Georgia Guidestones dedication 22 Mar 1980 to 22 Mar 2013 = 12,053 days or (33 years life of Christ) 12,053 days is exactly 33 years. There are 53 days from 22 Mar until May 14. 312AD is the year Constantine saw the vision of CHI RHO in the sky. Cairo? and used by the Catholic Church....
Roswell crash date 07 Jul 1947 to Birth of Israel May 14, 1948 = 312 days 312 + 53 = 365 days or 1 year
UN starts 26 Jun 1945 to 22 Mar 1948 = 1000 days
First nuclear bomb test Trinity site (Jornada del muerto) 16 Jul 1945 to birth of Israel May 14, 1948 = 1033 days
Hiroshima blast 06 Aug 1945 to Roswell crash 07 Jul 1947 = 700 days
Read this excerpt from Robert JR Graham "the fallen angel lucifer" Also there has been found a very strange bit of info that may show that the site of the Roswell UFO (Satanic hoax) was a chosen spot, and not just some random flying saucer crash site. In Spiritual Numerology, ’33; symbolizes the highest spiritual conscious attainable by the human being.” Mount Hermon, the first location of extraterrestrial (fallen angels) influence with man, lies precisely at 33.33° north 33.33° east … 2,012 miles from the equator and 2,012 miles from the prime meridian. If you go directly opposite Mount Hermon, on the other side of the Earth, you will find yourself at the Roswell UFO crash site location. " end of quote

The 33.33 east coordinate is calculated from the first prime meridian that ran through Paris. It was established by the Sun King, Louis 14 in 1666.

What this brings us to is the final growth or recession of the growth in the creation of the mystery babylon in the US. The US is the only other country to be dedicated to the one, true God, Yahweh, besides Israel. As a result, where the greatest potential for blessing is, there also is the will of darkness to oppose it. The efforts of this would be in the dark design in masonry to serve satan/lucifer. Nowhere is this more evident than the 33rd parallel particularly 33 degrees NLat. Here are some of the things that have occurred near or own this line. 1. The assassination of JFK (more on that latter) 2. The start of Project Evergreen (chemtrails) at Pinal Park, AZ 3. The Roswell crash 4. The first testing of the atomic bomb at the "Trinity site" 4. The start of the Civil War 5. The space fence is along this area (being shut down) 6. The OTO lodge in Charleston, SC 7. The city if Phoenix which represents the firebird rising from the ashes and is the hacked name of the Phoenician "X". This is the pagan interpretation of the Aramaic "taw" which is a "T" or the sign of the cross. We are ask to be baptized in water and remove the death process from what the flood brought. The reverse wording of that is re"taw" or the decision to take the beast and desert in mind which is to be part of the abomination of desolation. 8. FDR died close by at Warm Springs, GA .

Christ said you or either for me or against me or I will spew you out of my mouth, and you can't serve two masters. The mystery babylon results from the effort of the deceived to forge a world with both good and evil and making constant concessions to evil to eventually erode away any remnants of God's laws. Revelation 11:8 says And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. So, the ways of sodom and egypt will prevail over Jerusalem when the abomination of desolation occurs.

If we pray the Lord's Prayer billions of times then, Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven means the intention and eventually prophetic fulfillment of God's word is to transform the Kingdoms of the earth to the Kingdoms of God. How much of that is done now and how much has been done to oppose it?

This is from a post I had in another thread. I will add some more later. It involves connections to the 90th degree and above in dark egyptian masonry and ties to the US (mystery babylon) and satanism.


A Frenchman had a lengthy thread where the claim was that "O" was created at bohemian grove in a satanic ceremony where malcolm x raped anne dunham. There have been subsequent claims that both her and barbara bush are daughters of aleister crowley. Their photos bear a remarkable resemblance to him.

A former illuminati member going under the alias of "Walt" had another thread where he said the "manchurian candidate" "O" was created in a deep underground bunker in Finland. Then a few weeks later, a video was taken undercover in bohemian grove where two Finnish flags hung to both sides of the US flag over a balcony.

In high dark masonry, the rite of memphis is the 90th degree. Guess where Memphis, TN is located? It is on 90degrees WLongitude. bohemian grove is EXACTLY 33 degrees west of that.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 12:18 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OBVIOUSLY you have NOT read where GOD SAYS; MY CHILDREN " ARE NOT" appointed unto wrath!!!
You can stay and go through the 7 years of the great tribulation all you want. I WILL BE IN GLORY WITH MY FATHER AND THE OTHER SAVES GLPer's!!!!
Toodles!!! Tah-Tah!!
 Quoting: Little Miss Sunshine


WHY dont people ever read the main post before comment?

Its like talking to cleverbot except clever bot at least has slightly different answers sometimes.

If you had read the post you would have seen that subject was dealt with.
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 12:20 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
People have become obsessed with this doctrine...

It does not serve the body to endlessly argue and strive over it...

Faith, hope and love are not doctrinal issues.

They are matters of the heart and spirit. Matters which bring a man peace and hope and comfort and assurance... bring these thing to the men around him...

Not endless strife and debate.

For those who are Gods, God will surely care for them... Now, and forever more.


Peace,
Cassie :-)

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09/13/2013 12:21 AM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Rapture versus Second Coming. The following contrasts are found in passages describing the coming of Christ. We suggest that these differences are an indication that different comings are in view: the coming of Christ as bridegroom for His expectant Church (the Rapture) versus the Second Coming of Christ upon an unbelieving world in judgment.

[link to www.spiritandtruth.org]
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

And this is the record, that God hath given
Cassie :-)

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09/13/2013 12:24 AM

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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

And this is the record, that God hath given
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 12:26 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
"from one end of heaven to the other."
Noon
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09/13/2013 12:33 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
You are forgetting Matthew 7 21-23. Jesus is returning on the 2nd Coming to testify AGAINST the christians that he is not God but to only the worship God.

This Verse is a big problem for christians. As they do not see Jesus as a Prophet/Messenger but as a God or begotten son,
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 12:37 AM
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 Quoting: Cassie :-)


Rapture versus Second Coming. The following contrasts are found in passages describing the coming of Christ. We suggest that these differences are an indication that different comings are in view: the coming of Christ as bridegroom for His expectant Church (the Rapture) versus the Second Coming of Christ upon an unbelieving world in judgment.

[link to www.spiritandtruth.org]
 Quoting: Cassie :-)


Once again I say READ the post.

It totally destroys those CHURCH made arguments with pure scripture.

I know what those teachings are because I used to follow them since childhood.

Now I know the truth..,the books and the churches LIED..but Jesus didnt lie.

Read what he had to say about it..not what men said about it.

Its all in the post.

read it twice..and then again..and THEN see how those teachings you posted fall to peices like so much...garbage..because thats what it turns out they are..satanic Masonic rubbish.

A LIE basically.
\
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 12:40 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OBVIOUSLY you have NOT read where GOD SAYS; MY CHILDREN " ARE NOT" appointed unto wrath!!!
You can stay and go through the 7 years of the great tribulation all you want. I WILL BE IN GLORY WITH MY FATHER AND THE OTHER SAVES GLPer's!!!!
Toodles!!! Tah-Tah!!
 Quoting: Little Miss Sunshine


:smug:
Cassie :-)

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09/13/2013 12:48 AM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10

Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.
Zephaniah 2:3

For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion; In the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me; He shall set me high upon a rock. Psalm 27:5

Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:20-21
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

And this is the record, that God hath given
CigarTigher

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09/13/2013 12:53 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Why do they use the term"Left behind"? Is it because you can't be saved during the Tribulation ?
Open your eyes
Punctuation Police

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09/13/2013 01:07 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I wrote up this whole thing, but it got eaten, so let me give you the short version.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 it talks about the coming of our Lord and the great day of his return.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord
, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Long before Jesus died for our sins, God was refereed to as Our Lord. You could argue that Paul was being a bit cryptic here, if it wasn't for the very clear letter he wrote to the Thessalonians detailing the coming of "Our Lord Jesus Christ," in 2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

You could argue AGAIN that he's clarifying some points, and I've actually heard people make up several little stories that are in no way scriptural to explain the fact that this description does not seem to match up with the completely non-violent, comforting version Paul had written in his previous letter. But ultimately, the simplest explanation is that he is talking about two separate events.

Christ himself stipulated that the coming of OUR LORDwill be as a thief in the night, but Christ's return will have many many restrictions placed upon it.

I think sometimes people forget that God ultimately is the one who will raise us. He raised Jesus, he raised Ezekiel, he will raise the witnesses, and he will raise us. This, in my opinion, is why John saw GOD first in the book of Revelation. In fact, you only need read Revelation 11 to realize that this event is a two-fold victory. For when the angel blows the seventh trumpet it is proclaimed:

“The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”


I would encourage anyone who doubts a Pre-Tribulation rapture to reread scripture with an unbiased eye and anywhere you read "Lord" accept the fact that this word can either mean Jesus OR God, and that when Jesus famously said "The Son of Man is coming at a day you do not expect." He might actually be referring to future Christians who wrongfully assume Jesus Christ will be the one to greet them when they are called to Our Lord in heaven.
mccloud286

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09/13/2013 01:08 AM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
if only one of that group were in fact still alive to this very day in 2013..


It seems that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events.
 Quoting: 0_0


If by 'rapture' you mean the Greeting together of those who have been raised from the dead or transformed in the twinkling of their eye and gathered up to met the Lord in the air, .. .. then it is apparent that that rapture, that gathering together to the Lord in the air.. is but a Part of the Second Coming.. not a separate event from it, but a part of it.

so, by the pronouns.. it would seem that either, 1.) Peter, James, John and etal, have never died, or the abomination of desolation spoken of has already happened.. that is if all those have died.. would be a big different though if only one of that group were in fact still alive to this very day in 2013..
What is "abomination of desolation".? What is "desolation"?

Well, what is 'desolation'? If we don't know what desolation even means but just use it as some niffty slogan.. then we know nothing really.

And what is 'abomination".. I find it to be something seen as a curse, seen as a curse by some one.. or someones.

Findign the term 'desolation'to mean as it developed throughout its usages in Scriptures, is but a severe population , a population reduction of a given arear or region of land.. such as currently the ruins of Babylon are Desolate.. (don't know how many Iraqi soliders if any are guard it at the moment.. but its population is definitely desolate compared two when it was the capital city of ALexander the Great.. )

And since in the Prophets, Babylon was desolate, an inhabitance of dragons and jackals.. (animal population) but no human or very low human population, then it would seem.. that the "abomination of desolation" is a very cursed very severe reduction of the human population nunmbers of Humans in the Temple, its complex, and in fact even Jerusalem..

Maybe I got it wrong.. but such an approach in my opinion is getting closer to the ball park.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


At he end of John(the book) peter is being asked If he loves Christ, and when Christ gets done rebuking him for his earlier betrayal, peter sees john and says what of him, and Christ replies: " If I will he remain till I come, what is that to you." John 21:22
So with that logic I actually John is still with this world
mccloud286
Chas

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09/13/2013 01:08 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
bump
Chas





GLP