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For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

 
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 05:09 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
My Christian friends are pre-Trib. It is there hope. It is what they believe and it is not a salvation issue. However, I think it is dangerous in the respect that when the SHTF, some people's faith will be shaken, and that is sad.

I think it's important for Christians to declare Post-Trib as the truth - but not lose friends in Christ over it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46086834


Yeah, as I have put it, let our strife be with ourself and striving with the Text itself, and not with each other.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Why would the LORD need the 144,000 if the Church was still here? The Old Testament is for the Jews, also for our learning. In the New Testament we have the LORD on the cross, died buried and arose. There is when everything is new for the believers in CHRIST. The non believers will be left, the evil ones that want to destroy the earth. The Blessed Hope is that JESUS CHRIST will call HIS to the heavens with a "Come up here." HE promised that we would not go through the tribulation. We will be changed in a twinkling of the eye and be with the LORD for ever and ever. We will return with HIM on white horses, all clothed in white linen. HIS (remember chosen that is mostly Israel), will be preached to by the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, and the two prophets that will come forth, many of the lost will be saved. The 7 trumps are blown by angels, but the TRUMP OF GOD, will call HIS home, that is the rapture! It is in the bible, read it. Pray that you will escape these things that are about to fall on the earth.
 Quoting: sandpiper


The 144,000 are not Jews--only 1 tribe was--they were Hebrew Israelites--Gods chosen people.He promised 1 group they would not go through the end time trib--the remaining Hebrew Israelites who are alive today--the remnant spoken of in tons of places esp Isaiah. God said he would reach out his arm to gather them and who are these people who fly like doves to their nests referring to the remnant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46484376


Indeed the Twevle Tribes are not Jews, that is to say not all Judeans.. of their tribal father Judah.. only one of the Tribe are as it were sired by Judah..

And do remember that Joseph's wife was an Egyptian or at least a daughter of a preist of On.. in Egypt.. . Two lines came from Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh... the half tribe of Epharim, (also like Dan) apparently have no peoples who meet that very select qualification as to being among those 144,000 it does not mean they disappeared nor went extinct, nor were even disinherited as Tribes of Israel.. It simply would appear that they didn't / don't have anyone that meets those exact qualifications for the 144,000 ...

But then we find Joseph and Manesseh.. Almost as if Joseph has more sons than just Ephraim and Manesseh.. perhaps this other sons as it were are adopted or as it is engrafted into the Tribe of Joseph.. and some of those others meet the qualifications for being among the 144,000.. and by the way these 144,000 are not the only peoples to get saved or born again, these are on a special assignement as it were... these in particlar are BrideGrooms.. these help the Husband-to-be to groom up the Bride...to perpare her to become Wife and no longer simply Bride... or so it might be said.

Also we find Levi who formerly was not deemed to be a Tribe of Israel now being included.. why? Because the Levitical Priesthood is now gone.. replaced by the Mal-Kez-ah-dek.. priest hood. and their own special function now over and done with they can return to just being one of the Twelve "Sons" of Jacob/Israel, the man.

Hebrew-Israelites is a rather strange concoction.. or is it? There are many others of Eber besides that line that went on down to Abraham and on down to Issac and to Jacob.

Look at the qualifications for the 144,000,, really look at those qualifications.. and really think.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

The first bolded part is referencing how many will be alive at the end of the 'latter days' prophecy. It is an amendment to the determination made in Eze:39 as part of the punishment that started with Neb coming to exile them into Babylon, that punishment is not fully over until Satan's Babylon is burned to the ground as part of the 7 vials.

De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

The 2nd bolded reference is to Judea. Using the OT area given it means (in Matthew:24) that any person standing within that defined area as it states it a specific way that lets it apply to the Gentiles in Re:16 that see the bodies.

M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
M't:24:15:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand:)
M't:24:16:
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
M't:24:17:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
 Quoting: MHz


I have to really look at what you wrote as I think I am not quite understanding your statments.. not your problem, mine.. a few neuron to repair from a stroke about two years ago... had it not been heal as it has so far by the grace and mercy of God you would be reading my text as 'eawe wonoe aonwe oaley,.''' along those lines..

But in mentioning the many nations.. one is wise to take a look at the Table of Nations as I call it of Genesis 10.. (if I remember correctely) which I have counted as numbering 71... it wasn't until Jacob became Israel was there even a non-nation peoples called Israel.. and that of a more or less genetic line.. more or less.. though often mixed in with other lines... those other gene lines's people could be adopted in.. and become part of Israel.. and after a few generations pretty much a part of the so called genetic line of Jacob Israel...

At any rate.. many people seem to totally space off Genesis Ten...

And as to that Rev 11:9 it is in reference as to location the city of Jerusalem.. a certain incarnation of that City.. remembering it had been totally leveled by teh Roman Armies.. so what we have now is a different incarnation as it were of Jerusalem.. which at the moment is a very very worldly place... and definitely not the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven.. yet in the future at least future from the time of this post.
MHz

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Matt 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you..."

They, who?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

Today it would be anybody that has a version of Scripture that was different from the concept told by the writers of the NT. In the period after the 5th trump start it would be whoever will eventually be in the 2/3 that die that day the 7th trump sounds. Once Satan and the Beast start their 42 months the world will be divided into 10 Kingdoms that are loyal to the angelic being know as the angel from the bottomless pit. It was put there as stated in Jude, 10,000 angels at war during the time of the flood. One get to return for a period of 42 months and that time starts when the 5th trump sounds. the 1st trump sounds when the two witnesses are given protection, 4 days later they are given the same kind of power that Moses was given, show up in person and let God do the rest.

Prior to any trump sounding the earth is subject to an angel (Christ) casting coals from the alter before God in the Temple of Re:5 (same one in Re:11) so the coals are actually prayers offered by the 24 Elders that are there. (the 24 are the OT Saints that were resurrected the same day Jesus was, they ascended with Jesus but they remained in the Temple and only Jesus came back.

The last ones to be able to repent and have it make a difference as far as if you are alive or dead for the 1,000 years are the ones who give glory to God in Re:11 and they have to then leave Jerusalem without delay once they see the abomination of a throne standing on holy ground in Jerusalem and someone sitting and claiming to be God. They are the same ones that witness the fire that destroyed Sodom come again and destroy Satan's Babylon.
MHz

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I have to really look at what you wrote as I think I am not quite understanding your statments.. not your problem, mine.. a few neuron to repair from a stroke about two years ago... had it not been heal as it has so far by the grace and mercy of God you would be reading my text as 'eawe wonoe aonwe oaley,.''' along those lines..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

Luckily the Bible is a circular book in that when you re-read a spot that left you confused before it should be clearer if you have read certain other passages before the review. Understanding just falls into place using that method, if a part is confusing trying to 'figure it out ' before moving on. The prophecies about the bruise to Satan's head are even small but finding them all is the hardest part.

But in mentioning the many nations.. one is wise to take a look at the Table of Nations as I call it of Genesis 10.. (if I remember correctely) which I have counted as numbering 71... it wasn't until Jacob became Israel was there even a non-nation peoples called Israel.. and that of a more or less genetic line.. more or less.. though often mixed in with other lines... those other gene lines's people could be adopted in.. and become part of Israel.. and after a few generations pretty much a part of the so called genetic line of Jacob Israel...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

There is a better reference that takes the whole chapter but can be summed up in just a few verses from the whole passage.

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:

and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.

At any rate.. many people seem to totally space off Genesis Ten...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

Why would that be?

And as to that Rev 11:9 it is in reference as to location the city of Jerusalem.. a certain incarnation of that City.. remembering it had been totally leveled by teh Roman Armies.. so what we have now is a different incarnation as it were of Jerusalem.. which at the moment is a very very worldly place... and definitely not the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven.. yet in the future at least future from the time of this post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246

Luke:21:12-24 covers a period of time from the cross until 70AD and the start of a period called 'the time of the Gentiles', Re:11 mentions that same period of time as having 42 months to run. That period is measured from when the two witnesses are started and the two witnesses protect Jerusalem until the day they die. In those 3 1/2 days Satan and the Beast have control of Jerusalem and in those few days they plant the image of Re:13 in a (hastily made) temple where a throne they brought with them is put into place.

From the time og the end of the 2nd woe until the end of the 3rd woe is the same day. Since resurrection is also part of that same day the end of the vials only represents the completion of all things associated with the bruise to Satan's head as mentioned in Ge:3:15. All things associated with the bruise to the heel was completed when Jesus said, "It is finished." moments before He died.

Re:16:17:
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 06:51 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
Noon
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09/13/2013 12:16 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OP. reply to page 2. Noon. Ty
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106



I AM A CHRISTIAN AND I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE!!!
IntoTheLight

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09/13/2013 12:27 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


Pope Francis Says Atheists Will Go To Heaven

[link to www.independent.co.uk]


I don't need the rapture.

I'm going to Heaven anyways.

Yay!

Jebus loves me!

Yay!


sheepsheepsheep
6 months UK then 6 months USA.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106

Luke:21:24 is a reference to a scattering, James put it as being a past event.

Jas:1:1:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
You are forgetting something where it says they will be eating,drinking,and marring and knew not until the flood came and took them all away,well don't you think people will just be trying to stay alive during all the apocalypse going on after the seals are broken instead of carrying on as in normal life as the scripture suggest.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
You are forgetting something where it says they will be eating,drinking,and marring and knew not until the flood came and took them all away,well don't you think people will just be trying to stay alive during all the apocalypse going on after the seals are broken instead of carrying on as in normal life as the scripture suggest.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46132199


Now theres the rub.

Now it gets deeper.

You see..all the rot we have been taught in church books is not what will happen.

Life will be going on.

Yes a lot of the world will be having doom, but if you notice one important detail that most people miss and thats the judgments are on "One third of this" and "One quater" of that...one third burnt up..one third water poisoned.

Its not happenning to the entire world AT ONCE.(NOt until the BOWLS of wrath does the entire world cop these things all at ONCE)

So a LOT of the world IS still eating and drinking and living.

Thats pretty much whats taking place now really.

Its good example of how it will be and IS being right now.

We see dooms on the news..lots of persecution overseas..wars..children killed..starvation..war..\|We sit back and see it on the news but dont stress TOO much because our tummies are full..weddings to plan..TV to watch..life goes on.

The majority of the world will be "Viewers" of the dooms.

Thinking they are safe and fat and rich they will continue on with life as the middle east goes up in flames and war AS its doing right now.

They will be certain nothings really going to get them...they will and ARE ignoring all the warnings and signs..and expecting a treaty to signal the beginning of the doom.

Thats NOT going to happen...life will go on for them..and then..

THE FLOOD will come...

One killed...the other left...disease..plagues..famine..want..disasters..will all come home to roost on the "Islands" and nations that have dwelt in safety..thinking nothing can get them.

Siddenly like the flood..ALL the dooms will come home to roost..


And all the rich..the well fed..the men of power and the ordinary man..will find themselves running..trying to hide..as they see something terrifying in the sky.

All their books about peace treaties and the fake church bot doctrines will prove false..except one..

HE WILL turn up like a theif..NO one will have seen it coming because they were either NOT looking for signs at all or looking for the WRONG signs.

Making millions selling books and preaching sermons about the 70 weeks..pre trib raptures..peace treaties and third temples..which ALL turn out to have been nothing but a money making cashcow distraction..and all WRONG and a lie..

And the flood will come..the day of His wrath is here..he has turned up..and they are ALL caught by surprise because theye were NOT keeping watch..

And the LAST DAY arrives..and they were taken by surprise...and our era ends.

His Begins.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


No Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and Revelation was written in 89-90 AD. So Clearly they witnessed its destruction
mccloud286
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


No Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and Revelation was written in 89-90 AD. So Clearly they witnessed its destruction
 Quoting: mccloud286


Then WHY wanst the destruction of Jerusalem..THE most important prophetic event since Jesus himself..mentioned IN the book of revelations as already taken place?

Because it was written BEFORE it took place...and not LONG before it.

Otherwise it WOULD have been mentioned as an event that had ALREADY happenned..NOT as an even that was GOING to happen.

Yet another lie thats been told to the churches to further their pre trib rapture lie..
christian
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The wicked are removed before Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead...


Jesus will be *Judging* the 7 Churches..


Some will go into righteousness


Some will go into the FIRE..meaning purification, when they come out they will smell like Smoke...


Woodhay and Stuble...
Susie

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.....Matthew 6:21
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: Ecclesiastes 3:1
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The wicked are removed before Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead...


Jesus will be *Judging* the 7 Churches..


Some will go into righteousness


Some will go into the FIRE..meaning purification, when they come out they will smell like Smoke...


Woodhay and Stuble...
 Quoting: christian


You must have read this too..

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.


Notice he said "TILL" the debt was paid...clearly stating that it COULD and WOULD be paid.

Christians teach it to mean..

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, and even after he should pay all that was due unto him he would never be let out and writhe in torture forever..

And again he said.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

So what it means is to work things out NOW while you have life and an easy chance to do so.

Otherwise if you dont deal with things now while its "Easy" to do so, you will have to pay for it the hard way.

But notice he still menationed it was "UNTIL" the last farthing was paid, and that he would NOT get out "UNTIL" it was paid in full.

In other words there is a limit to the the price you pay commesurate with what you owed.

But christians teach it like this.


Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, And even after you have paid you will never get out.

They like to teach the exact opposite to what Jesus said.

Its very clear.

How can anyone miss it??

But it sells books and makes money and keeps everyone in contant fear and easlily controlled.

The LAKE OF FIRE is NOT torture..its LOVE!!!!

Like flame melts the coldest of ice the lake of fire will melt and soften even the hardest of hearts.

There you will be surrounded by pure love and holiness.

This would be torment to a dark and evil heart and there they remail till all the evil in them is burt away.

Evil is death. Thats why death gets destroyed in the lake.

It cannot survive pure love.

So those in the lake will face the results of every evil action they ever committed and they will wail and gansh their teeth, as they feel the pain they caused others but not in "Revenge" state as is taught, but in a "Corrective" state.

They will finally understand at last their true state and that they are loved so deeply that they will be ashamed and eventually be purified of all their evil.

Im not talking about the catholic "Purgatory" where they are tortured for tortures sake in sadistic ways.

Its more like they get flooded and saturated by pure love itself and in their final understanding of what Love is they have all their hate and evil burnt out of them.

Because it happens in the PRESENCE of the LAMB (So much for it being a SEPERATION from him)


Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,(WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT CORRECTION NOT POITNLESS CRUELTY) which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Death dies because evil dies.

What is left at the end is just themselves...finally repentant and educated in the ways of mercy and love..all their hate and evil destroyed.\

The price they pay for doing things the "Hard" way is they hold themselves in everlasting contempt and shame and are never allowed into the holy city.

The will forever be on the "Outside" looking in.

But in no way screaming in torture forever.

Instead at the end when all is said and done every one of them will bow before their creator and confess "Jesus is Lord" and mean it because to do so they will have "Learnt: rightousness and been granted the Holy Spirit in order to be able to make that confession.

And that confession will be to the "Glory" of the Father.

How can the father get much "Glory" if they are all making that Meaningful heartfelt confession if they arew doing so under torture and duress?

IN the end LOVE wins because it cant LOSE.

It never fails.

And according to scripture..

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

om_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

AND..they CANT make this confession UNLESS..

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And to HAVE the Holy Ghost requires REPENTANCE..

And therefore ALL who confess this AT the end MUST have God dwelling iN them DUE to repentance..

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In other words they paid the last farthing..have learnt their lesson..have repented and are now able to make this confession and mean it.

Those whose names were not found written in the book of life and had to die the "Second death" were never allowed into the city..

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And after they have paid the last farthing in the lake of the fire of His pure love he will..

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So sorrow and pain and agony and tears HAVE AN END.

Its the opposite of what is taught where they say that those very things will continue on forever in a place sustained BY God.

But at the end even the hardests of sinners will be made whole and have all their tears wiped away.

But they can never enter the city. They were not among the ones who "Took care of busines" on the way to court.

They had to pay it all in full to the last stripe..

And this includes christians who dont do what the Lord asked..they get the SAME punishment as the "Unbeleivers"

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

There is no discrimination made here.

A Christian who treats his fellows badly will get the SAME punishment even if he did "Beleive"

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Notice it didnt say "INFINITE" Stripes but "Many".

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So once again He is clearly saying that there IS AN END and a LIMIT to how one paid their debt and that "Christians" who are ratbags to others get the SAME punishment in the SAME place as the "UNBELEIVERS"...who of course get FEWER stripes because they DID NOT KNOW.

But christians teach it to mean..once again the OPPOSITE

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with INFINITE stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with INFINITE STRIPES as well. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

But Why did Jesus die you may ask if everyone "Repents" at the end??

He died so you would not HAVE to experience the second death.

If you want to experience it..and it probably wont be fun..keep preaching fear and terror..you know..the very OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught.

Read the post again..see what HE TAUGHT!

And if you do..you will realise that NOT EVERYONE gets to HEAVEN..as Heaven IS the New Jerusalem.

The ones that had to die the "Second death" ..are forever denied entrance or any authority in the Kindom.

They themselves are saved..but they sure did SUFFER LOSS..and will hold themselves in "Everlasting" contempt..for being so foolish as to have NOT done things the easy way when they had the chance.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Notice it said "ANY MAN"..no discrimination here again.

Notice the "FIRE"?..Thats his PURE LOVE..and it will BURN UP DROSS..and everything NOT DONE in love will BURN.

But the person..even if they were evil to the core..will lose EVERYTHING..ALL rewards..but they themselves WILL be saved..but,,are never allowed into the city..EVER.

I LOVE it when people are set free and know the TRUTH at last.

hf
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
yup, must be tried before convicted.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
RIGHT HERE IS THE FIRE PURIFICATION:

1 Corinthians 3

The Church and Its Leaders

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly.

For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.


It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again,


“The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
Susie

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.....Matthew 6:21
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: Ecclesiastes 3:1
ClydeX

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09/13/2013 06:46 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
You are forgetting something where it says they will be eating,drinking,and marring and knew not until the flood came and took them all away,well don't you think people will just be trying to stay alive during all the apocalypse going on after the seals are broken instead of carrying on as in normal life as the scripture suggest.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46132199


Context is important.

At the time of the flood, there had never been such storm, people had never "played in the rain". When this storm began, the people were, essentially, reveling and partying in, while idolizing the very thing that would ultimately bring their demise.

Today's society (as I believe we live in "that time") is the society Christ mentioned - an over-dependence on technology, reliance on deceptions and distractions, and the belief that ANY government is there to help you or to take care of you.

The time of Tribulation will equate to the time the waters of The Flood began to rise, thereby that which was initially highly revered becomes the vehicle of their destruction.

The drops have begun to fall.
Job 12:7) But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8) Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 06:50 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 06:54 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44396455


I KNOW the actual word is not in there..it was used as a reference to the end..I was speaking in a way that people could understand..keeping it as simple as possible.The whole point was the focus on WHEN everyone is changed..not so much what people CALL that event.

If they called it the "BOOLINGDUMPLE"..and that was its common name I would have used that instead so there was NO misunderstanding as to WHAT event I was actually addressing.

Im not into mincing words and getting off on side tracks..I stick to facts.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 06:55 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
You are forgetting something where it says they will be eating,drinking,and marring and knew not until the flood came and took them all away,well don't you think people will just be trying to stay alive during all the apocalypse going on after the seals are broken instead of carrying on as in normal life as the scripture suggest.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46132199


Context is important.

At the time of the flood, there had never been such storm, people had never "played in the rain". When this storm began, the people were, essentially, reveling and partying in, while idolizing the very thing that would ultimately bring their demise.

Today's society (as I believe we live in "that time") is the society Christ mentioned - an over-dependence on technology, reliance on deceptions and distractions, and the belief that ANY government is there to help you or to take care of you.

The time of Tribulation will equate to the time the waters of The Flood began to rise, thereby that which was initially highly revered becomes the vehicle of their destruction.

The drops have begun to fall.
 Quoting: ClydeX


Yes.

Like I said..

Life will be going on.

Yes a lot of the world will be having doom, but if you notice one important detail that most people miss and thats the judgments are on "One third of this" and "One quater" of that...one third burnt up..one third water poisoned.

Its not happenning to the entire world AT ONCE.(NOt until the BOWLS of wrath does the entire world cop these things all at ONCE)

So a LOT of the world IS still eating and drinking and living.

Thats pretty much whats taking place now really.

Its good example of how it will be and IS being right now.

We see dooms on the news..lots of persecution overseas..wars..children killed..starvation..war..\|We sit back and see it on the news but dont stress TOO much because our tummies are full..weddings to plan..TV to watch..life goes on.

The majority of the world will be "Viewers" of the dooms.

Thinking they are safe and fat and rich they will continue on with life as the middle east goes up in flames and war AS its doing right now.

They will be certain nothings really going to get them...they will and ARE ignoring all the warnings and signs..and expecting a treaty to signal the beginning of the doom.

Thats NOT going to happen...life will go on for them..and then..

THE FLOOD will come...

One killed...the other left...disease..plagues..famine..want..disasters..will all come home to roost on the "Islands" and nations that have dwelt in safety..thinking nothing can get them.

Siddenly like the flood..ALL the dooms will come home to roost..


And all the rich..the well fed..the men of power and the ordinary man..will find themselves running..trying to hide..as they see something terrifying in the sky.

All their books about peace treaties and the fake church bot doctrines will prove false..except one..

HE WILL turn up like a theif..NO one will have seen it coming because they were either NOT looking for signs at all or looking for the WRONG signs.

Making millions selling books and preaching sermons about the 70 weeks..pre trib raptures..peace treaties and third temples..which ALL turn out to have been nothing but a money making cashcow distraction..and all WRONG and a lie..

And the flood will come..the day of His wrath is here..he has turned up..and they are ALL caught by surprise because theye were NOT keeping watch..

And the LAST DAY arrives..and they were taken by surprise...and our era ends.

His Begins.
christian
Suited up and Armored in Christ!

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09/13/2013 06:55 PM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44396455


The WORD Rapture is where many people become confused.. Because it has been sensationalized the actual word..


Right here is Rapture..

1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The LORD will be in the air we breathe....we will be with him.
Susie

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.....Matthew 6:21
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: Ecclesiastes 3:1
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 07:07 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44396455


The WORD Rapture is where many people become confused.. Because it has been sensationalized the actual word..


Right here is Rapture..

1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The LORD will be in the air we breathe....we will be with him.
 Quoting: christian


The breathe of life in its final most beautiful form from which immorality is granted.

As it was so shall it be.


111 444 144
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 07:10 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44396455


The WORD Rapture is where many people become confused.. Because it has been sensationalized the actual word..


Right here is Rapture..

1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The LORD will be in the air we breathe....we will be with him.
 Quoting: christian


The breathe of life in its final most beautiful form from which immorality is granted.

As it was so shall it be.


111 444 144
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


888
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 07:16 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Except nowhere in there does it say anything about the "Rapture."

The rapture was a made up thing and isn't in there. "Gathering of the elect" is a far cry from the idea of the "rapture."

Basically, all you did was underline the words "then." That's not proof.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44396455


The WORD Rapture is where many people become confused.. Because it has been sensationalized the actual word..


Right here is Rapture..

1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The LORD will be in the air we breathe....we will be with him.
 Quoting: christian


The breathe of life in its final most beautiful form from which immorality is granted.

As it was so shall it be.


111 444 144
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


888
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


ohyeah
hugs
I will see you there my brother, when all long suffering is over.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 07:26 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
...


The WORD Rapture is where many people become confused.. Because it has been sensationalized the actual word..


Right here is Rapture..

1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The LORD will be in the air we breathe....we will be with him.
 Quoting: christian


The breathe of life in its final most beautiful form from which immorality is granted.

As it was so shall it be.


111 444 144
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


888
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


ohyeah
hugs
I will see you there my brother, when all long suffering is over.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


Yep.

Not long to go..2020 at the very latest.

Its been an interesting life.

Lot of pain and crap and hard times..but NEVER dull..never bored..

Its been a real adventure.

And the best adventure is almost upon us.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/13/2013 07:41 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
...


The breathe of life in its final most beautiful form from which immorality is granted.

As it was so shall it be.


111 444 144
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


888
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


ohyeah
hugs
I will see you there my brother, when all long suffering is over.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46810674


Yep.

Not long to go..2020 at the very latest.

Its been an interesting life.

Lot of pain and crap and hard times..but NEVER dull..never bored..

Its been a real adventure.

And the best adventure is almost upon us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


Although...it wont be all fun...but what awesome sights will be seen..events that no one else in all history in either direction will ever see..but will wish they could have seen.

We are rather fortunate to be chosen for this time...we will be able to say to the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of others for the rest of eternity.."WE WERE THERE..we were PART of that action."
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 07:46 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
As there is no "Tribulation Period" defined as such in Scripture (all that you have is Daniel's 70th week)


I am neither Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post Trib.

I believe in the Pre-Wrath position.


And there is no evidence that God's wrath must begin at the start of Daniel's 70th week.



6th Seal: worldwide darkness; elites hide in fear in caves and declare that God's wrath is about to begin.


Rev. 6: 12-17
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2013 08:14 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Here is satan's trick.....the master of half truths.


He influences some human being in the 1800's to give Daniel's 70th week a NEW NAME.

This gets introduced into the church and eventually becomes widely accepted.

Namely....."The Tribulation Period" equals Daniel's 70th week. Presto......they are now both one and the same.

With the passing of time....."The Tribulation Period" is used almost exclusively.

This gets shortened even further for convenience sake....i.e... "I am Pre-Trib", etc.


By it's name.....it strongly suggests God's wrath.....FOR ALL SEVEN YEARS.


Therefore......people begin to believe that they will be caught up by God prior to the final 7 years.


As such, these believers will actually be caught off guard......because God's wrath does not begin at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week......but not until much later......after the persecution by anti-christ is cut short (ended) by God.

Naturally satan would love to arrest and kill as many Jews and Christians as possible......and will do whatever he can to trick them.

This is interfere with God's promise to Abraham as found in Gen 22.


First five Seals......satan's wrath

6th Seal......transition; worldwide darkness

7th Seal.....God's wrath


Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was given in response to Daniel who was interceding for his people Israel while they were in captivity. He wanted to know how long the punishment would last......how long God would hide His face from Israel.

At the end of the 70th week......the punishment (reconciliation) will be over......and God will put His Spirit inside those of Israel who have survived. (Ezekiel Chps 34---39)

Daniel: addressed to Israel (although others in the world will be affected).

Revelation: given by Christ to the Church; a picture of end time events in advance.


The 70th week and Revelation's 7 Seals are not one and the same. The Seals do not have to be squished into the final 7 years from Daniel's prophecy. The first two seals are very general in nature and could have been broken long ago.
mccloud286

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09/13/2013 08:54 PM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


No Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and Revelation was written in 89-90 AD. So Clearly they witnessed its destruction
 Quoting: mccloud286


Then WHY wanst the destruction of Jerusalem..THE most important prophetic event since Jesus himself..mentioned IN the book of revelations as already taken place?

Because it was written BEFORE it took place...and not LONG before it.

Otherwise it WOULD have been mentioned as an event that had ALREADY happenned..NOT as an even that was GOING to happen.

Yet another lie thats been told to the churches to further their pre trib rapture lie..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


The Roman historian Josephus(who was living in the area at the records this as the year General Vespasian destroyed the temple and ransacked the place.
But here is a link to a site that corroborates this.www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htmAlso revelation was not wrote about the past it is wrote about future events and things to come.
mccloud286





GLP