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For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

 
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Revelation was written before jerusalem was destroyed.

If it had been written after that very momentous event dont you think something THAT important would have been mentioned as a PAST tense instead of placed among the category of "Things hereafter"?????

Everyone miss that rather important detail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


No Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and Revelation was written in 89-90 AD. So Clearly they witnessed its destruction
 Quoting: mccloud286


Then WHY wanst the destruction of Jerusalem..THE most important prophetic event since Jesus himself..mentioned IN the book of revelations as already taken place?

Because it was written BEFORE it took place...and not LONG before it.

Otherwise it WOULD have been mentioned as an event that had ALREADY happenned..NOT as an even that was GOING to happen.

Yet another lie thats been told to the churches to further their pre trib rapture lie..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106


The Roman historian Josephus(who was living in the area at the records this as the year General Vespasian destroyed the temple and ransacked the place.
But here is a link to a site that corroborates this.www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htmAlso revelation was not wrote about the past it is wrote about future events and things to come.
 Quoting: mccloud286


Yes Josephus recorded the destruction of jerusalem in 70 AD.

So why was not such a prophetically momentous event mentioned in the book of revelation because if it HAD already hapenned when revelation was written it WOULD have had a mention dont you think?

But it was not mentioned in the least which means it was still future at that point.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Well done OP.

The pre-tib is crap.

This is the definition of tribulation.

From Greek.
2347. thlipsis thlip'-sis from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

During the tribulation, Christians will be persecuted and they might have to die for their faith.

BUT after the tribulation they are raptured with the dead and the rest of the world is destroyed by fire.

Or in GLP terms.

1) We have the great tribulation during which time Christians are persecuted.
2) At the end of the great tribulation Jesus returns and the world is destroyed by fire.
3) Take your pick, as the fire that destroys the world might be the kill shot or a nuclear war, or even a massive asteroid impact.
4) The raptured spend a 1000 years with Jesus, after which the evil are resurrected for judgement.

For non Christians or those that are anti-Christians, the tribulation will not be so bad, because they will not be persecuted.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
the fact this thread has 4 stars proves the majority of people are morons and easily brainwashed

humanity is doomed
Cassie :-)

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09/14/2013 04:07 AM

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I Thessalonians 4:16-18
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The thought of tribulation is certainly not a comforting thought.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:10-11


The next verse says hes coming for those LOOKING for Him!
When he returns we all know that all will not be looking for him. He's returning the second time to those that ARE looking for him. That's why we're instructed to watch.


Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13

Awaiting His return!!!

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

And this is the record, that God hath given
Chef.

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OP, What version of the Bible are you using? Thanks
Out of the pan into the Fire.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OP, What version of the Bible are you using? Thanks
 Quoting: Chef.


KJV

But its the same in ALL the versions.

So what does it matter?

I was a pastor for 12 years.

I KNOW what all the various versions have in them and say.
Chef.

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
OP, What version of the Bible are you using? Thanks
 Quoting: Chef.


KJV

But its the same in ALL the versions.

So what does it matter?

I was a pastor for 12 years.

I KNOW what all the various versions have in them and say.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46817390


It matters, Some books read more true then others! I'm always looking for better insight and understanding that are true (no words added or taken away) in the word God. Thanks OP
Out of the pan into the Fire.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I truly have a hard time with this. I feel like it contradicts itself of when it will be. In one part in scripture it says after the tribulation of those days. But in another part in revelations it says I will keep you from that hour of trial which is the persecution of Christians. I don't know exactly what he's gonna do. But he is about to do something HUGE very soon.
dawnie

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I didn't read this but didn't need to because I agree. I know a lot of people hope they won't have to go thru the tribulation but scriptures say otherwise.

Last Edited by dawnie on 09/14/2013 10:01 PM
A flag flown upside down is a symbol of a country in distress. As a result of the many traitors and enemies inside our own government and the many unconstitutional acts, legislation and atrocities passed and/or committed against our lives, liberty and property, as well as a reckless foreign policy meant to enrich and empower an already wealthy group of 'elites' while wreaking havoc around the globe and committing atrocities against large numbers of innocent peoples in the name of 'spreading democracy', the United States is no longer a free country and the lives of its citizens as well as the lives of our brothers and sisters around the globe, are in dire danger and distress.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
I can't read all this once, never mind twice...
messianicjew

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
There will probably be a false flag pre-trib rapture, but set up by humans.

There are many false flag marks of the beast being set up too like RFID chips, though I would avoid them all too anyway, but the mark of the beast is on billions of people and has been for almost 2000 years
messianicjew
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
This the hardest part to understand. In Rev 3:10 he says and I quote:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But in Mathew 24:29-31 he says.

29 的mmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

what does it mean. Is it before or after.
Anonymous Coward
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09/14/2013 10:16 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
This the hardest part to understand. In Rev 3:10 he says and I quote:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But in Mathew 24:29-31 he says.

29 的mmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

what does it mean. Is it before or after.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39829789


Its after.

and to be "Kept" from the hourof temptation means "Protected"..not raptured.

Protected and hidden for 1260 days.
Punctuation Police

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
This the hardest part to understand. In Rev 3:10 he says and I quote:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But in Mathew 24:29-31 he says.

29 的mmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

what does it mean. Is it before or after.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39829789


Its after.

and to be "Kept" from the hourof temptation means "Protected"..not raptured.

Protected and hidden for 1260 days.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46861900



My personal philosophy has always been that the reason certain things seem to contradict each other is because WE (human beings) always assume that the bible was referring to the same event when it's actually referring to two separate events.

First God comes. Raptures His church (However you want to believe that happens)

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 典he kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ - Rev 11:15


THEN the three beasts rise to power and Christ returns.

If you read 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians without automatically assuming "The Day of The Lord" means Jesus Christ's return, it makes SO much more sense.

Last Edited by Anonymous_Cow on 09/15/2013 12:15 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
This the hardest part to understand. In Rev 3:10 he says and I quote:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But in Mathew 24:29-31 he says.

29 的mmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

what does it mean. Is it before or after.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39829789


Its after.

and to be "Kept" from the hourof temptation means "Protected"..not raptured.

Protected and hidden for 1260 days.


That is NOT what the scriptures say.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46861900


Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
This the hardest part to understand. In Rev 3:10 he says and I quote:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But in Mathew 24:29-31 he says.

29 的mmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

what does it mean. Is it before or after.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39829789


Its after.

and to be "Kept" from the hourof temptation means "Protected"..not raptured.

Protected and hidden for 1260 days.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46861900


Sorry...my comment was placed in the quote box by mistake....

That's NOT what the scriptures say.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Good stuff.

Note the Revelation reference about "those who were beheaded..." Now boys and girls: who beheads Christians? I'll give you a hint: it begins with "j", and ends in "ihadis". Go on...guess.
MHz

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Good stuff.

Note the Revelation reference about "those who were beheaded..." Now boys and girls: who beheads Christians? I'll give you a hint: it begins with "j", and ends in "ihadis". Go on...guess.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25698078

Other than the two witnesses that are destined to die where does it show it is the repented in the Church that is part of the 1/3 of mankind that will die in the last 1110 days before the two witnesses are resurrected?
In the 'latter days De:4:30 promises that sincere prayer will bring safety. (through the power that only the two witnesses control) The 1/3 of the remaining living that survive that resurrection day will be part of the Church so it is safe to assume there were at least a few members just 3 1/2 years before that day. They would be the ones that did not worship the false God. The ones that were 'beheaded' for the word of God are the whole of the 12 Tribes except for the 144,000 as per that De:4 prophecy. That group would also cover some Gentiles in the OT that died because God spoke the words that caused their 'premature' deaths.

Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Last Edited by MHz on 09/16/2013 01:18 AM
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09/27/2013 07:13 AM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Good stuff.

Note the Revelation reference about "those who were beheaded..." Now boys and girls: who beheads Christians? I'll give you a hint: it begins with "j", and ends in "ihadis". Go on...guess.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25698078


Interesting observation.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
bump
El_Duderino

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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES by this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all (Pre tribbers)to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46769106



wallbatsspidygod
We are not children of celestial fuckin' light, walkin' arm-in-arm into the Age of Aquarius. We are wankers who wreck the planet an' piss on each other, 'til half the world's starvin' an' the other half's busy findin' new ways to keep from noticin' it. That's the fuckin' limit've our potential, believe me.
:jcbanner:
Anonymous Coward
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09/27/2013 06:49 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Here's a documentary that really explains why the Rapture may not come before the Tribulation as has been often preached.

I urge folks to watch it.


Why is this even an issue? A lot of pastors are teaching people not to prepare whatsoever with supplies, seed, skills, and spirituality. They tell Christians, "No worries. You will all be spared the Tribulation since the Rapture comes first."

Because of this, a lot of folks will end up dying because they failed to prepare.

Even if you don't want to worry about any of that pre-trib or during the Trib or the after-Trib doctrines, ask yourself this, "Have Christians avoided suffering in history during upheavals or have they massively suffered by oppressive governments and false doctrines?

Please watch it and be prepared.
Anonymous Coward
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09/27/2013 08:06 PM
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Thank you for an excellent thread the secret rapture is a Jesuit doctrine sent to sabotage the main stream Protestant churches into a state of confusion from which an Eccumenicial union with Rome can be reached

Rabbi Ben Ezra was a lying Jesuit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46110989


Ecuminical is another word for NWO religion.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
Here's a documentary that really explains why the Rapture may not come before the Tribulation as has been often preached.

I urge folks to watch it.


Why is this even an issue? A lot of pastors are teaching people not to prepare whatsoever with supplies, seed, skills, and spirituality. They tell Christians, "No worries. You will all be spared the Tribulation since the Rapture comes first."

Because of this, a lot of folks will end up dying because they failed to prepare.

Even if you don't want to worry about any of that pre-trib or during the Trib or the after-Trib doctrines, ask yourself this, "Have Christians avoided suffering in history during upheavals or have they massively suffered by oppressive governments and false doctrines?

Please watch it and be prepared.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41713542


Well thought out.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
bump
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
bump

bump for the truth revealed here.

people need to READ their bible and understand what it REALLY says!

He who has an ear.....
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
bump

bump for the truth revealed here.

people need to READ their bible and understand what it REALLY says!

He who has an ear.....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41197024


They are too busy reading mens books and making millions on lies.

They dont have TIME for truth.

truth does not sell.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
"The seventh trumpet IS the bowls.
\
The trumpets are NOT listed as wrath but the bowls are.

And the seventh trumpet..IS the bowls..like the sevent seal..IS the trumpets."


*****************************************


I agree that the 7th trumpet includes the bowl judgments.


However if you read about the 5th trumpet judgment......you can see that it is God's Wrath.


Therefore one can conclude that the 7th Seal is God's wrath.......as it involves all 7 trumpet judgments.


The 144,000 of Israel are sealed just prior to the 7th Seal. And likewise a very large group is newly arrived in heaven at approx. the same time. (Rev. 7: 1-14)


Here is the 7th Seal......5th trumpet judgement:


"Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

They were COMMANANDED not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but ONLY THOSE MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THEIR FOREHEADS.

And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for 5 months."


5th Trumpet Judgment.....5 months in duration.....part of God's wrath.


First 5 Seals.......Satan's wrath as permitted by God. It has been going on for a long time and will get much worse in the end times.

5th Seal......abomination of desolation; the mark; persecution of the Jews and Christians.


God cuts this short after a few years or so......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


6th Seal......worldwide darkness for an unspecified period of time.....could be months. The elites hide in fear in the mountains and declare that God's wrath is about to begin.


The 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm. They will remain on earth. The Christians are caught up by angels to be with their Lord.


Parallel in Mt 24:

a time of great tribulation (small letters; not a fixed 3.5 years) by the man of evil; severe persecution

God ends it after awhile.


Worldwide darkness (Mt 24: 29) (Rev. 6th Seal)

Christians caught up by angels (Mt. 24: 30) (Mark 13: 27) Rev. 7: 9---14)


From the midpoint:

Satin's wrath.....approx. one to two years.

Then God's wrath....approx. one to two years....the final section of Daniel's 70th week....the 7th Seal trumpet judgments. There are 7 trumpet judgments. The 5th is five months in duration. The 7th trumpet includes the 7 bowl judgments.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The post above is the Pre-Wrath position.
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Re: For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!
The post above is the Pre-Wrath position.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33302253


Correction: the most recent post on the previous page is the Pre-Wrath position.





GLP