For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

Please reply to mine on page 2

yup, ur interpretation is good. if one just stands back and looks at the big picture it can be easily seen that there wont be a pre-trip rapture. same thing can be said about hell and the state of the dead. I mean how does it makes sense that when you die you go to heaven or hell, then after being there for who know how long (till jesus) returns all of a sudden God take you out of hell or heaven put you in a body to resurrect then He judges you then you go back to hell or heaven...??? think about that..He is punishing you or rewarding you before judging you but you know how He will judge u cause you are already receiving the sentence. Imagine you live a good life here on earth and because you accept salvation when you die you go to heaven. In heaven you think, feel, taste...u have all the sense you had on earth then God says, "well I got to put you back in the dirt and raise you up to bring you back here." theres a reason why He calls the first death sleep. its because just like you sleep you have no idea what going on around you and then bam you wake up and rise up. if we as mortal being can back up massive amount of data and reinstall im pretty sure God can do the same thing with us. I believe when you die He gets our spirit which is the essence and memories of who we are but is unconscious without a body. the spirit must have a body, whether earthly body or heavenly body but its clear that our new body is not given after death but after resurrection. before then we just sleep waiting to resurrect, be judged, then go to heaven or have eternal punishment which is eternal death brought about by the eternal fire which is God. unlike the righteous, they will not be able to endure the eternal fire of God..it will consume them but His fire will be a delight for the saved.

The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to reserve the unjust until the day of judgment to be punished. (2 Peter 2: 9)

True.

Bt jesus never taught "Eternal" death or torture..

Here again are the words of HIS OWN mouth...

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.


Notice he said "TILL" the debt was paid...clearly stating that it COULD and WOULD be paid.

Christians teach it to mean..

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, and even after he should pay all that was due unto him he would never be let out and writhe in torture forever..

And again he said.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

So what it means is to work things out NOW while you have life and an easy chance to do so.

Otherwise if you dont deal with things now while its "Easy" to do so, you will have to pay for it the hard way.

But notice he still menationed it was "UNTIL" the last farthing was paid, and that he would NOT get out "UNTIL" it was paid in full.

In other words there is a limit to the the price you pay commesurate with what you owed.

But christians teach it like this.


Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, And even after you have paid you will never get out.

They like to teach the exact opposite to what Jesus said.

Its very clear.

How can anyone miss it??

But it sells books and makes money and keeps everyone in contant fear and easlily controlled.

The LAKE OF FIRE is NOT torture..its LOVE!!!!

Like flame melts the coldest of ice the lake of fire will melt and soften even the hardest of hearts.

There you will be surrounded by pure love and holiness.

This would be torment to a dark and evil heart and there they remail till all the evil in them is burt away.

Evil is death. Thats why death gets destroyed in the lake.

It cannot survive pure love.

So those in the lake will face the results of every evil action they ever committed and they will wail and gansh their teeth, as they feel the pain they caused others but not in "Revenge" state as is taught, but in a "Corrective" state.

They will finally understand at last their true state and that they are loved so deeply that they will be ashamed and eventually be purified of all their evil.

Im not talking about the catholic "Purgatory" where they are tortured for tortures sake in sadistic ways.

Its more like they get flooded and saturated by pure love itself and in their final understanding of what Love is they have all their hate and evil burnt out of them.

Because it happens in the PRESENCE of the LAMB (So much for it being a SEPERATION from him)


Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,(WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT CORRECTION NOT POITNLESS CRUELTY) which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Death dies because evil dies.

What is left at the end is just themselves...finally repentant and educated in the ways of mercy and love..all their hate and evil destroyed.\

The price they pay for doing things the "Hard" way is they hold themselves in everlasting contempt and shame and are never allowed into the holy city.

The will forever be on the "Outside" looking in.

But in no way screaming in torture forever.

Instead at the end when all is said and done every one of them will bow before their creator and confess "Jesus is Lord" and mean it because to do so they will have "Learnt: rightousness and been granted the Holy Spirit in order to be able to make that confession.

And that confession will be to the "Glory" of the Father.

How can the father get much "Glory" if they are all making that Meaningful heartfelt confession if they arew doing so under torture and duress?

IN the end LOVE wins because it cant LOSE.

It never fails.

And according to scripture..

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

om_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

AND..they CANT make this confession UNLESS..

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And to HAVE the Holy Ghost requires REPENTANCE..

And therefore ALL who confess this AT the end MUST have God dwelling iN them DUE to repentance..

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In other words they paid the last farthing..have learnt their lesson..have repented and are now able to make this confession and mean it.

Those whose names were not found written in the book of life and had to die the "Second death" were never allowed into the city..

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And after they have paid the last farthing in the lake of the fire of His pure love he will..

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So sorrow and pain and agony and tears HAVE AN END.

Its the opposite of what is taught where they say that those very things will continue on forever in a place sustained BY God.

But at the end even the hardests of sinners will be made whole and have all their tears wiped away.

But they can never enter the city. They were not among the ones who "Took care of busines" on the way to court.

They had to pay it all in full to the last stripe..

And this includes christians who dont do what the Lord asked..they get the SAME punishment as the "Unbeleivers"

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

There is no discrimination made here.

A Christian who treats his fellows badly will get the SAME punishment even if he did "Beleive"

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Notice it didnt say "INFINITE" Stripes but "Many".

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So once again He is clearly saying that there IS AN END and a LIMIT to how one paid their debt and that "Christians" who are ratbags to others get the SAME punishment in the SAME place as the "UNBELEIVERS"...who of course get FEWER stripes because they DID NOT KNOW.

But christians teach it to mean..once again the OPPOSITE

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with INFINITE stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with INFINITE STRIPES as well. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

But Why did Jesus die you may ask if everyone "Repents" at the end??

He died so you would not HAVE to experience the second death.

If you want to experience it..and it probably wont be fun..keep preaching fear and terror..you know..the very OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught.

Read the post again..see what HE TAUGHT!

And if you do..you will realise that NOT EVERYONE gets to HEAVEN..as Heaven IS the New Jerusalem.

The ones that had to die the "Second death" ..are forever denied entrance or any authority in the Kindom.

They themselves are saved..but they sure did SUFFER LOSS..and will hold themselves in "Everlasting" contempt..for being so foolish as to have NOT done things the easy way when they had the chance.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Notice it said "ANY MAN"..no discrimination here again.

Notice the "FIRE"?..Thats his PURE LOVE..and it will BURN UP DROSS..and everything NOT DONE in love will BURN.

But the person..even if they were evil to the core..will lose EVERYTHING..ALL rewards..but they themselves WILL be saved..but,,are never allowed into the city..EVER.

What would your reply be to mine.Page 2. ?

Which reply?

There are several.

Of that , 1.) Strife, 2.) Debate.. of the two is what damaging is the Strife, not the Debate. The Debate without Strife is a worthy goal.. for both parties of a debate to learn something that they have not realized or known, even if it is about themselves then had not realized or known before.

It is also wise to remember that it is the Spirit that persuades, not the words of a man, when it comes to sound doctrine.

If there be strife, let it be with oneself, as in striving to more beyond the haze cobwebs and striving with the text as to such issues..

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation

Notice of this English what it says, yes., But also look at what it does not say in this English. I think in honesty you can say that this English Text does not say,

"For then shall be THE great tribulation"... the 'the' is certainly not there in this text.. .but then one here's often that saying, "The great tribulation".. or even as if a Label or Title.. "The Great Tribulation".. if that were said on the basis of that earlier text above, not the later one.. to even give proper titlement or labeling it would be more proper to label it as "A Great Tribulation" and not "The Great Tribulation".. this is not a point of strife with other's to beat each other over the head, but instead to bring and strive to understand the various usages, whether in the Text or out in general public usage.

I myself strived with the text of various English translations of this, of this very verse.. finally I look into the Greek of this verse to see if in the Greek the earlier language sourced text used a definite aritlce, properly translated as "the" or if it used an indefinite article or even no article.. in which case it would in English be 'a'. or just left out as it does in this case above.

as if to render it, "For then shall be a great tribulation..." just to make it clear that the Greek used the indefinite or no article instead of the definite (the) article.

By striving with the Text itself, one can learn many things that went right past them before.

The same with the preposition found in 'after the tribulation'.. for example.. in what sense is this 'after' to be understood as, as some would put it, 'after some location, or after some time'? Locative (locational sitting) or Temporal, ie, in the Time framing... the location in time. Many times when the Scriptures are studied one finds themselves not really using all the tools of readign for comprehension one had been taught or learned in Grammer and Middle and High School. It might be wise in such a case to get a bit sharper and sharpen up our skills and not be quite so lax.

"after the... ".. two words.. is the definite article given int the English really supported in the Greek as a definite article? Really? One could check the Greek just out of shear curosity to discover that. .and they might (if it were the case) that, hey, the Greek used an indefinite term.. or yep, the Greek used the definite article in this case.. which ever is discovered in the Greek.

Of course if one is of the tendency to be an Originalist, then you would not look so much at either the Syntax nor the Semantics and just ask the original author what they meant.. this is a problem with a text that is alleged to over 1,900 years ago.

Then in verse 29.. wait a minute.. verse 29 of what? Genesis 1? Sometimes it is wise to include the full verse reference .. I have been noticing on internet discussions all over the place such poor referencing..

In my own study notes I tend to cite it as something like this..

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Why be in such a hurry that I get sloppy and lax.. and yes, vague..

Here we have this word, "Immediately..." hmm... remembering we are striving with the Text not with each other.. This is were it really helps to know which of the multiple of English versions of translations we are coming from, so that we know where we are coming from...

Mat 24:29 (KJV) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... " helps me know, so I have a clue as to which century or such as to the English used.. why? In this case because that word, "immeidately' has changed its meaning in some ways since the 1611 version of the KJV English.

Remembering we are striving with the Text...

Just the way OP has enboldend his presentation I would say that he is at least partly of the Constructionalist method.. he is paying good attention to words and phrases..

Mat 24:29 (KJV) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... " Which days are meant when it is said 'those' days.. we have to stay in context of the verse.. and the context of the passage and even more remote context beyond the arbitray chapter and verse divisions.. I won;t beat this to death ,but perhaps one does need to get down these sorts of finer points with oneselve. Sharing them can get quite overwhelming at times..

My point is to strive yourself with the Text and not with each other.. though at times it can be fun and insightful to share one's discoveries.. in the process...

"the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" that is the Sign of the Son of Man and not all the other signs such as 'sun be darkened, moon shall not give it light.. stars fall from the heaven.. (interestingly the next.. ) powers of heaven shall be shaken..." These imho are not the Sign of the Son of Man, these are but precursors.. The sign of the son of Man is this "Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This sign comes after all those other precursors.. but now where in that passage does it tell us how long it is from those precursors to the Sign of the Son of Man occuring.. and you can't honesting (you as a general public collection of people.. not any particular individual).. you can't honestly hammer a time span of a definite span betwixt the precursors nor this last Sign... though many try to do just that.. you might find the exact time span in other places in the Bible but its not here in this verse nor this passage.

It could be 32 atto seconds, it could be a generational span of time, or it could be thousands of years.. But remember WHO Jesus is immediatly speaking to when this passage was given by Him... I would asset that was sometime in 33 A.D. or 'there abouts'.. It would seem that Peter, John, and James are sitting right there.. and He is instructing them and the rest of His disciples that are then sittign right there... Watch for the personal pronouns for instance.

The tribulation.,. which tribulation? Don't pull it out of context it is found in.

One thing is sure though you cannot mistake the sign of the son of Man when He is coming in the clouds of Heaven.. This is addressed to those same Apostles that wouold later be at the time of teh ascension, they will know even more of what Jesus is saying here when that time comes at the ascension.. what He meant about coming in the clouds of Heaven which is the reverse of how He left, ascending into the clouds of heaven.

OP's And (THEN).. in Mat 24:31 KJV .. on has to ask if OP in his derivation, that is to say in his derived understanding, if he has or has not proper supplied the inserted THEN.. one can as, is that 'then' to be found there in teh Greek, for instance..

What we are looking for is a sequence of time.. not in terms of the span of time slices.. but the sequencing of those slices.. the sequence of time...

Mat 24:21.. For.. a preposition showign that what follows will be a Reason or Purpose given for what is being stated following the preposition.. As if His disciples right there at the time he is explaing thing to them, are asking, Why? Well, Because... because (for) the reason is.. there shall be great tribulation.

We need to remember just what that very word tribulation means in the denoted sense.. And one can even ask themselves was the Flood of Noah a Tribulation? Or a Wrath of God? One could see that the 'all flesh had corrupted itself' as a form or consquence and its consequence upon the hearts and minds of mankind.. eve their flesh had corrupted itself.. so it was pretty fubar.. THis would deeply vex a righteous man or woman.. this corruption would give great tribulation to the righteous one... for even their own flesh had corrupted itself.. but thats found in Genesis Six.

In other places Jesus told His followers, 'that in the world ye (all of you) shall (absolute) have tribulation... this pretty much by itself blows away the Pre-Trib assertions unless one choses to not believe Jesus' own assertion. Were even in 33 A.D. Jesus' Apostles and disciples 'in the world'? For sure, they were.. therefore He was telling even them that they would be suffering tribulation.. They themselves not some vast distant set of 'believers' but they themselves..

Notice how Mat 24:29 uses 'the tribulation' but leaves of the adjective 'great'? And in context we in Mat 24:21 it has '... shall be great tribulation... ' notice how the definite article is not found there? A Great Tribulation, not The Great Tribulation..

Okay when did that 'A great tribulation" he was warning those very disciples about, when did it start? He had warned them that in the world they would suffer tribulation. but was that to be then understood as great tribulation? (notice the adjective here, great)...

There is no doubt that the sign of the Son of Man of His coming in the clouds of heaven occurs after a great tribulation.. but from our vantage point in time frame.. it does not mean that we now of 2013 A.D. are still waiting for the arrival of a great tribulation.. in fact there are many many reasons to see that this great tribulation started the very day that Jesus was crucified.... and perhaps has become such a great tribulation that so far it has lasted 1,980 some years.

From my own studies I have concluded in my derived understandigns, that the Abomination of Desolation is not the Sign we are looking for from the vantage point of 2013 A.D... its already occured sometime shortly before the desturction and desolation of the Temple in 70 A.D... or did the Aposltes and disciples chose to remain at the Temple and within the walls of Jerusalem when that all got desolated and destroyed.. had they not heeded His warnings they would have been effectively trapped in the Temple and trapped in Jerusalem and suffered desolation themselves...

These had to have seen somethign that told them it was time to bug out of Jerusalem and go to the hills. Put your self in their shoes.

In Mark 13:27 it explicitly uses the word 'then'.. "and then he shall send his angels.. " Since this is deemed to be a parallel passage to Mat 24.. I would say that OP properly supplied his (THEN) in the place that he did in his treatment of that section in Matt 24.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

Did you catch those pronouns? First and formost these 'bretheren' where the very first people to reach this Epistle from Paul.. that was definitely long long before 2013 A.D.. are any of them alive yet? Are we those very brethern? You decide. YE, those very brethern who would most definitely be the very first to hear this way way back when... Can we extend that to 2013 to 'us' now?

Notice the "us" and "we" pronouns in there.. We.. Paul and who? Perhaps by extension also to the other Apostles, perhaps.. dare we expand that usage that far? We must be careful not to over expand usages.. lest we become as expansive as teh Pharisees Jesus rebuke and corrected were in the habit of doing.

From 1st Thess 1:1 we find, this greeting,

1Th 1:1 (KJV) Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

As we might do in an email to day...
FROM: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy
TO: the church of the Thessalonians..
SUBJECT: ....

One wonders if there is come CC: or Blind CC: in there so as to extend it as an address to many other churches of God as well beyond just those of the Thessalonians... as if even to the churchs today in 2013.. some dare to expand it that far.. Are these over daring? You decide.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

This last pronoun, "us".. meaning at least explicitly Paul, Silvanus adn Timothy... does that extend to any other group of parties beyond these three (or perhaps including the other Apostles as well)?


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

This 'ye' second person plural in the Greek usage, btw, we don't have any separate Modern English word for the second person plural for that matter unlike the King James English usage.. really the Elizabetian English.

This "ye" refer in usage explicitly to the members of the church of the Thessalonians when this Epistle was first written and sent to.. they guys were afraid that they had alread missed the boat... but when was that Epistle given time wise.. in what Decade of the 1st Century A.D.? But it was not explicitly to the 21st Century churches..

If you haven't looked at this and studied it from the Greek I would highly recommend it.. doing so.. so as you can compare the English with the older Kione Greek of this text source.

YOu cannot miss it when it happens this coming.. nor will you remain ignore it or deceived about it when it happens because either you have just been raised from the Dead or you have been transformed that that you known longer have that corrupted flesh.. This coming is not a secret thing, even the people of the world will witness and see the coming in the clouds... and they will tremble.

But the Abomination of Desolation is not the sign you are looking for, it is the Coming of the Lord in the clouds of Heaven... we are to be looking for make no mistake.

Even if a nuclear fire for instance is an eternal fire, it does not mean that any thing put into it will burn eternally.. it will be burned up and cease as it is to exist. The fire might burn enternally but the stuff in it evenutally is as if it had never even been.. as if it had never existed.

Yes..death and all evil burn away..but the spirit itself shall be saved as its the only thing the fire..which if the pure love of God... will not consume..sprit being a PART of God Himself.

The author of the topic is totally wrong.

[link to christianchat.com]

Yeah I read that, and the only reason you think I am wrong is because you have not read the contents of my topic, because if you had you would see why its not wrong.

It CANT be wrong because its the words of the Lord himself..no sidetracking into jewish wedding..fig trees..or sheepfold..but straight up 100% scripture AS it was written.

I did read that post you did and it has some interesting SIDE points but the main subject itself is presented the same its usually presented as.

There is a single pronoun in the English, in Rev 20:15 how is it understood in the Kione Greek.. makes all the difference in understanding and 'policy'...

Rev 20:15 KJV And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Greeks texts (at least the ones I have seen) have there the pronoun.. ei tis.. which can also be translated as "anything" or "what so ever".. Have interest with that one. Is Death a human? Is Hell a human? Is Sin a Human?

THis indefinite pronoun of the Nomitative case, Singlar in number, masculine in gender.. has spawned many different views of that verse.. some very much in strife against those of a differing understanding from their own.

It could just as easily been translated as "And what so ever was not found written in the book of life was cast in the lake of fire".. tossed into to the burning landfill as it were.

The way it is used in teh Greek it is a vague pronoun.. requiring perhaps a very deep understanding of the rest of the entire Bible... to clarify.

But since the times of Noah.. one can ask.. where those people then that died in that flood now still drowning in water? That world perished by water.. the next by fire.

Exactly... once Sin itself is gone, can there even be any sin ?


Its not that the Truth shall set you free.. as if used in that highly misquouted and abbreviated form, not that simple a process.. And one asks, Free from What exactly? The context of that verse lets you know its talking about beign Free of Sin.. or Free from Sin.. the only real Freedom is the freedom from Sin.

If you go back as far as De:4:30 it mentions a final tribulation and safety if you pray to God. The seals are prophecies, they are not events by themselves, neither was the metal statue in Da:2 an event. The period of time that is tribulation in Revelation is in the coals event and the 7 trumps. Only the last 3 trumps are called woes. Woe #1 takes 5 months (150 days)to complete, the next woe takes 37 months (1110 days) for a total of 42 months. The time given to the Beast from the Pit and that is a fallen angels as in who was the ruler of the earth in pre-flood days. The 3rd woe happens at the end of that 42 months and it starts the pouring out of the 7 vials and that event from start to finish is about 3 hours long if time is measured at Jerusalem, the location of the event.


As far as salvation goes Re:7 tells who is the first to be given protection from God and who is the last to be given that same protection. The 1st are 144,000 from the 12 Tribes and that is because in the trumps that follow that is all that will be alive to see the return (Angels hide them for the 3 1/2 years that the world is under tribulation by fallen angels) The 2nd group mentioned in Re:7 the ones that appear before God and the Lamb so that can only happen at the Great White Throne event that happens after the 1,000 year reign on earth and the final destruction of Satan.
The return is on the day the two witnesses are resurrected and they are the 1st to come out of the grave on that day. They rise to cloud height and witness the destruction that comes with the vials. The 144,000 see it from the top of the mountain that Moses was in where Jesus had the same appearance He will have on the day of the lord. The destruction takes from 12PM to 3PM, in the last 3 hours of that day people are coming out of the graves and at 6PM the whole crowd that will be alive for the whole 1,000 years will be standing and breathing. 1,000 years later when the earth is experiencing fore the same people will be the first to leave the earth in a glorified body and they will travel to the site of the Great White Throne. Because they arrive already perfected they can enter New Jerusalem directly. That will be their 'home' for eternity, even after it lands on the new earth the ones alive for the 1,000 years will remain inside and act as Priests and Kings to the same people (and their children) that were not alive for that same 1,000 years on earth. (Isaiah 65)

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Indeed the Twevle Tribes are not Jews, that is to say not all Judeans.. of their tribal father Judah.. only one of the Tribe are as it were sired by Judah..

And do remember that Joseph's wife was an Egyptian or at least a daughter of a preist of On.. in Egypt.. . Two lines came from Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh... the half tribe of Epharim, (also like Dan) apparently have no peoples who meet that very select qualification as to being among those 144,000 it does not mean they disappeared nor went extinct, nor were even disinherited as Tribes of Israel.. It simply would appear that they didn't / don't have anyone that meets those exact qualifications for the 144,000 ...

But then we find Joseph and Manesseh.. Almost as if Joseph has more sons than just Ephraim and Manesseh.. perhaps this other sons as it were are adopted or as it is engrafted into the Tribe of Joseph.. and some of those others meet the qualifications for being among the 144,000.. and by the way these 144,000 are not the only peoples to get saved or born again, these are on a special assignement as it were... these in particlar are BrideGrooms.. these help the Husband-to-be to groom up the Bride...to perpare her to become Wife and no longer simply Bride... or so it might be said.

Also we find Levi who formerly was not deemed to be a Tribe of Israel now being included.. why? Because the Levitical Priesthood is now gone.. replaced by the Mal-Kez-ah-dek.. priest hood. and their own special function now over and done with they can return to just being one of the Twelve "Sons" of Jacob/Israel, the man.

Hebrew-Israelites is a rather strange concoction.. or is it? There are many others of Eber besides that line that went on down to Abraham and on down to Issac and to Jacob.

Look at the qualifications for the 144,000,, really look at those qualifications.. and really think.

Thank you for an excellent thread the secret rapture is a Jesuit doctrine sent to sabotage the main stream Protestant churches into a state of confusion from which an Eccumenicial union with Rome can be reached

Rabbi Ben Ezra was a lying Jesuit.

I meant Bridegroomsmen..

Remembering the much eariler partioning of the older churches into two main camps the so called original Catholic ,which was not Roman Catholic and not even Orthodox.. but among that Catholic came that slipt and then deemed the Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic.. this long long before the advent of the Protestants..

Of interest in this day is the Syrian Orthodox Church.. interesting, eh? As wellas the Greek Orthodox, and the Russian Orthodox.. not to mention the Coptic Churches.. why have so many people been blinded to seeing only Protestant and Roman Catholic?

OP
You've nailed it on the head. 5 stars.

Except for it's a little confusing who Stan is and why he's going to "let loose." LOL

My Christian friends are pre-Trib. It is there hope. It is what they believe and it is not a salvation issue. However, I think it is dangerous in the respect that when the SHTF, some people's faith will be shaken, and that is sad.

I think it's important for Christians to declare Post-Trib as the truth - but not lose friends in Christ over it.

Corrie Ten-Boom made many great points on this issue.

We all know who stan is dont we?

He's that ratbag that does not even merit having his name spelt properly.

The church HATES her because she speaks the truth.

Thay cant make money on truth.

Truth does not sell.

1). I respect all the personal believes here in this thread.
2). I am in direct contact to Jesus since more than 18 years.
3). I do not follow the Bible, because there ist too much deleted or manipulated by the powers that were.
4). I follow the words given by Jesus to me. Often proven successful in the past. ([liveleak] [link to christus-spricht.com[]
5). I offer information and do not try to convince anybody.
6). Jesus will be the leader of the affectionate landing aliens. However, he will not stay here or save eanybody.
7). There exists no God, who has wrath. God is pure love.
8). God is no single entity - he/she/it is the life itself. Everything that exists is part of God.
9). There will be three ascension waves. The first one is shortly after the beginning of the opening of the 7th seal. Only at a maximum 0,3 % of mankind (20 million people) will leave the earth in a magical way about 2 mnths after the start of the great tribulation. Some of these people will return to earth as Ascended Master about 3 months after they left. Second ascension wave is during the 3 day- and nightdarkness. Third ascension wave will be on a spaceshp or another pklanet after the evacuation by the aliens at then end of the 41/42 months NWO period. This period starts after the 3 day- and nightdarkness.

“The people are God. One could also say “a part of God”. A personified God with long beard or sitting on a cloud does not exist.” (Jesus Christ; 97 05 13)

„There is no God, who punishes. God, the original substance of existence is pure love. Humans are responsible for themselves what happens to them. They create their future. “
(Jesus Christ; 97 12 01)
So it is better you do not wait for an external saviour. You are responsible for your own spiritual development.

The seals are prophecies alone, seal 1 is God starting the prophecies that must unfold before a gathering can take place. Since all of the House of Israel is destined for the grave God saves a remnant. That is done before any actual events take place. The event that goes with seal 1 is the coals event and that would be the sealing of the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes as well as the Christians who have repented and can be counted as being in the Temple in Re:11. It is an unknown number before any trump sounds, on the day the 7th trump sounds it will number 1/3 of mankind and the vials on that day will kill 2/3 of mankind and that group is specifically destined to be dead and still be awake and that is called 'great tribulation and that is day 1 and it lasts for the full 1,000 years and past hen until the Great White Throne event starts and then that same group that was under punishment is seen standing before God as described in that later part of Re:7, the last ones to be given salvation and they have been through hell, literally.


The 144,000 that are sealed are given protection rather than them being given power to protect themselves. The only two that have any power are the two witnesses and they have power for 1260 days and the die 4 days before the 7th trump sounds. On the day the 7th trumps sounds the 42 months that the Beast (that kills the two) is over and on the day that 7th trump sounds all sinners in the world will die. Satan will be in chains in the Pit and the men that die will be behind a locked gate where they can see him and mock him. They see that day arrive as the vials being poured out. Once the last one is poured out (bu Christ) the the 7th angel (also Christ) in Re:10 will start to speak the names of the pones in the book of life that will be alive for the coming 1,000 year reign. That specific group will be perfected during that time so they can witness the destruction of Satan and the fallen angels after Israel is returned to the state it was in when it was called the 'Garden' and that would include the Dead Sea being capable of having lots of fresh water fish (Eze:47) Since the end of the 1,000 years is destined to see the metals melted there is no birds or beasts of the field or any fish alive (other than the Dead Sea) because that flesh would have to be sent to the fiery lake if it was there and could not be judged to be 'without sin while knowing about good and evil'.

Man was made dust and breath of life, Job:14 correctly states that at some point he will be needing a body again.


1. how many die before the 144,000 are 'sealed for protection from physical harm'
2. does the day that only God knows start on the day the 7th trump sounds or when the first prophetic event begins to unfold. If the 144,000 are sealed before anybody dies then some things get changed. The time of danger goes from an unsupported 7 years down to 3 1/2 years for the 5th and 6th trumps and 3 1/2 days for the previous 4 trumps to sound. The time during which the 144,000 and the two Witnesses are sealed from all harm. In the seals prophecy the two witnesses would belong to the verse where the ones under the alter that have been killed in the service of God (that Scripture mentions by actual name). The ones they are waiting for are the last ones to ever die in that role, that is the two witnesses and they are the first to be brought back from the physical grave. On the day they are resurrected they rise to cloud height and are joined there by the ones under the altar. From there they witness the destruction of Satan's Babylon and then the resurrection of the whole House of Israel as defined in Eze:37.

well done OP
there are too many people out there who believe in the pre tribulation rapture. Makes you wonder if they actually do study and read their bibles?

Last Edited by Swan Song on 09/13/2013 04:58 AM

I know.

Its amazing how many of then DONT.

They will watch endless utubes..hear endless sermons..read endless books of OTHER mens opinions and yet totally ignore the simple straight forward words of the Lord Himself.

Its all right there in front of them.

But they refuse to see it.

And yet..others see it right away.

Wheat..tares..

Definite line forming.

Matt 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you..."

They, who?

You, who? or which You...

Jesus is on Mt Olivet, the apostles and disciples are there too, and he is explaining things to them and prophesying to them. THose very apostles and disciples are the very 'You' that verse is addressing directly.. not some group of people some nearly 20 Centuries later.. but those right there in the 1st Century A.D.

And again, which "they"...? THose of that very time way back in the 1st Century A.D... explicitly, though it will not really have much meanign until after the ascension event. It isn't until the Ascension that the Messiah will no longer be in the flesh walking around on Earth openly.. in public.

If you can't stomach nor understand Paul's and Peter's Epistles and Johns Epistles you will not understand many of the usages of the term "Christ"...

Once Christ is in you, as God is in Christ, so too Christ is IN you.. and if Christ is IN you then why would you be looking for Christ to be anywhere else than In you?

If you know that Christ is in you, then you will not be subject to being easily deceived about that.. and the Christ In you came (became avaiable)on that day of Pentacost when the holy Spirit was poured out upon all mankind, and all they then had to do is to believe to just drink it in as according to what Jesus had been telling them about all that time of his ministry before the crucifixion, and even after his resurrection yet before that ascension was over.

Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.. glory is manifested power.. that which is manifest is no longer hidden... or at least not hidden when it is being manifested.



Op, this has been a decent thread and discussion.. thank you.

The first bolded part is referencing how many will be alive at the end of the 'latter days' prophecy. It is an amendment to the determination made in Eze:39 as part of the punishment that started with Neb coming to exile them into Babylon, that punishment is not fully over until Satan's Babylon is burned to the ground as part of the 7 vials.

De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

The 2nd bolded reference is to Judea. Using the OT area given it means (in Matthew:24) that any person standing within that defined area as it states it a specific way that lets it apply to the Gentiles in Re:16 that see the bodies.

M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
M't:24:15:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand:)
M't:24:16:
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
M't:24:17:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.