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Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2014 06:54 PM
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Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Probably shouldn't combine these two concepts, but...I'm reading the VA Tech report again, which states:

9:42 a.m. The first 9-1-1 call reporting
shots fired reaches the VTPD. A message is
sent to all county EMS units to staff and
respond.

As far as I can tell, this is the first Newtown use of the word ambulance that day in the official response:

9:40:03
Dispatch (Nute), faint: Ambulances requested to stage Methodist Church, Sandy Hook Center; ambulances and (louder) medics, you are requested to stage Methodist Church, Sandy Hook Center; I will need two ambulances at this time."
Newtown Fire & Police 201212140813-441506-7623

The VA Tech report implies that emergency medical services were notified immediately; if indeed the above transmission is the first Newtown request for ambulances, it means Newtown waited nearly five minutes before alerting EMS.

Just curious; it seems to me that 1) immediately alerting EMS for an entire county vs. 2) not alerting anyone for 5 minutes is a potentially significant difference.

One immediate thought is that one man (Nute) seemed to be handling much of the 1) 911 calls, 2) police dispatch, 3) EMS dispatch and 4) non-emergency calls.

But, even more questions:

A2 didn't reach staging (Sandy Hook Center, United Methodist, 92 Churchill Rd) until 9:46:13. Only 0.7 miles from school, but given the (later obvious) road blockage potential, and availability of a perfectly good fire station parking lot, why stage them so far away?

At 9:46:47, dispatch immediately requests A2 and A3 to re-stage at the Sandy Hook Fire Department.

A2 and A3 then reach the new staging area at 9:49:00 and 9:49:22, respectively.

It took 6 minutes to get rigs staffed and staged at the first location, and another 2.5 minutes to get them to the second staging area.

Newtown's only two working ambulances weren't at the FD until 13-14 minutes after the first 911 call.

This is just an exploratory thread; maybe the sequence of events is normal and explainable. But I don't think it dawned on me, really, that the ambulances weren't even physically capable of entering the scene until 9:49:22 a.m.

My immediate questions are:

1) Why wasn't EMS called for 5 minutes (or was it?)
2) Why not stage at the FD immediately?
3) Why was A1 out of commission?
4) Does it matter how late EMS was called, given that at 9:59:13, ten minutes later, Nute was still telling A2 and A3 not to proceed to the scene?

Think about THAT though--the shooter was DEAD at 9:40:03? It took over 17.5 minutes for police to 1) find a dead man in the one hall filled with gunsmoke and dead bodies several feet from the perp and 2) beckon the first ambulance to the scene?

17.5 minutes?

And at 9:59:13, almost twenty minutes after the shooter stopped shooting, Nute was still telling ambulances NOT to enter the scene?

Damn. Have to go make supper. Bad timing (ironically).

9:40:03 final shot is bunk.
Tell Me Lies

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04/27/2014 06:57 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
bump
Thoughts?
G. House

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04/27/2014 07:08 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
"Everybody lies."
Dudeashaneo

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04/27/2014 07:12 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.

Last Edited by Dudeashaneo on 04/27/2014 07:20 PM
Is there a chance we could get some honesty up in here?
G. House

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04/27/2014 07:31 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?

Last Edited by G. House on 04/27/2014 07:32 PM
"Everybody lies."
Dudeashaneo

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04/27/2014 07:51 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


Actually you are late to the party. The " not safe to send in EMS " argument is pretty shaky at this point and if you are suggesting that by the time EMS got there it was too late then we should take that up with the official report since it seems they were staging ASAP just waiting for the orders to go in.

I think we determining that they are using 9:46 as the official time an Ambulance (A2) was on site correct?

Last Edited by Dudeashaneo on 04/27/2014 07:56 PM
Is there a chance we could get some honesty up in here?
G. House

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04/27/2014 08:09 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


Actually you are late to the party. The " not safe to send in EMS " argument is pretty shaky at this point and if you are suggesting that by the time EMS got there it was too late then we should take that up with the official report since it seems they were staging ASAP just waiting for the orders to go in.

I think we determining that they are using 9:46 as the official time an Ambulance (A2) was on site correct?
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


Let me repeat more graphicly.

If you have bodies shot up to the point that the heads are blown apart and grey matter is spread all over the floor...

what EXACTLY is EMS going to do?
"Everybody lies."
Dudeashaneo

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04/27/2014 08:12 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
...




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


Actually you are late to the party. The " not safe to send in EMS " argument is pretty shaky at this point and if you are suggesting that by the time EMS got there it was too late then we should take that up with the official report since it seems they were staging ASAP just waiting for the orders to go in.

I think we determining that they are using 9:46 as the official time an Ambulance (A2) was on site correct?
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


Let me repeat more graphicly.

If you have bodies shot up to the point that the heads are blown apart and grey matter is spread all over the floor...

what EXACTLY is EMS going to do?
 Quoting: G. House


Well which is it then? It was not safe for them to enter? Everyone was too shot up to save? Or the road was blocked?

I suppose you don't send EMS in to help the injured who could be bleeding to death from getting hit in the foot either?

Last Edited by Dudeashaneo on 04/27/2014 08:17 PM
Is there a chance we could get some honesty up in here?
G. House

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04/27/2014 08:24 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
First and foremost it was not safe to enter.

LEO got everyone out that they could and were evaluating the situation.

Do YOU think for some inexpicable reason that the TOTAL situation was absolutely clear immediately on arrival?

Secondly the shooter did a thorough job on the victims that he shot, he did not shoot them once, close range hits with .223 explodes heads.

So yes, unfortunately the victims that were shot were beyond hope. At that point it was a crime scene and you want as few people as possible tracking through the blood, body fluids, brains, bone fragments, body tissue, as possible.

I do not understand why this is so unfathomable to Sandy Hook tards.

Unless you have irrefutable proof that someone bled to death from being shot in the foot?

Last Edited by G. House on 04/27/2014 08:26 PM
"Everybody lies."
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2014 08:33 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
First and foremost it was not safe to enter.

LEO got everyone out that they could and were evaluating the situation.

Do YOU think for some inexpicable reason that the TOTAL situation was absolutely clear immediately on arrival?

Secondly the shooter did a thorough job on the victims that he shot, he did not shoot them once, close range hits with .223 explodes heads.

So yes, unfortunately the victims that were shot were beyond hope. At that point it was a crime scene and you want as few people as possible tracking through the blood, body fluids, brains, bone fragments, body tissue, as possible.

I do not understand why this is so unfathomable to Sandy Hook tards.

Unless you have irrefutable proof that someone bled to death from being shot in the foot?
 Quoting: G. House



LOL!

Blood? What blood? I believe even Vance answered that way when he was questioned about what was done on the cleaning up of the blood.
Dudeashaneo

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04/27/2014 08:34 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
If it was unsafe to send anyone in then it would stand to reason you would clear the scene correct? Create a perimeter. Did they do that?

I guess I would also ask....is there anything you found that you would question in this event?

Last Edited by Dudeashaneo on 04/27/2014 08:51 PM
Is there a chance we could get some honesty up in here?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/27/2014 09:37 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Let's see...

Natalie Hammond: injured, survived
Deb Pisani: injured, survived

Child from Room 10: injured, extracted, transported
Children from Room 8: injured, extracted, transported

Multiple children, unaccounted for, possibly hiding and injured within school until 1:30 p.m.: in need of transport

Other than that, the answer remains: why treat Sandy Hook different from other mass shootings (where ambulances staged near scene and then ENTERED scene; where air ambulances were on-site, waiting just in case)?

It is a myth that all victims were DOA.

Cario said MULTIPLE children were extracted, alive, from Room 8, and transported to Danbury.

The Final Report said MULTIPLE children were extracted, alive, and transported to Danbury in an SUV (this does not include the girl from Room 10, because she was loaded into A2).
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/27/2014 09:40 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


No, that was what police were doing while children lay dying.

But they DID have a reason. And that is that shots were being fired until 9:51:31 a.m.

The police's actions only make sense if someone was shooting until 9:51:31 a.m.

And someone was.

Only with a theory of 'shooter down at 9:51:31' does the first call for an ambulance to the scene at 9:57 make sense.

Otherwise, you're saying that Newtown and state cops let children bleed to death for over 17 minutes after shooter down before calling in a rig.
G. House

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04/27/2014 10:01 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


No, that was what police were doing while children lay dying.

But they DID have a reason. And that is that shots were being fired until 9:51:31 a.m.

The police's actions only make sense if someone was shooting until 9:51:31 a.m.

And someone was.

Only with a theory of 'shooter down at 9:51:31' does the first call for an ambulance to the scene at 9:57 make sense.

Otherwise, you're saying that Newtown and state cops let children bleed to death for over 17 minutes after shooter down before calling in a rig.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56211047


Sounds to me like they got the survivors out and into care as the situation warrented it.

I don't see why YOU seem to think that in a matter of minutes they would have an absolute handle on what was safe and what was not. In horrific situations such as this a little chaos is inevitable...

however...

your premise that it would have been safe for EMS to start combing the place immediately on arrival is a bit simplistic.

It is not EMS's job to do that in what MIGHT be an active shooting situation.

This entire situation had to be a horrific situation to be involved in...

I get REALLY PISSED off from all you armchair investigators
second guessing all decisions made AFTER THE FACT when you no way in hell have a clear picture as to what was happening at the time.

Then you come to all these ludicrous conclusions based primarily on conjecture and pass them off as absolute fact...

sickening...

morbid...

it's no wonder the authorities are so hesitant to provide detailed information on events such as these with ghouls such as yourself picking at the details.

It's the typical chain of events practised by the GLP so-called "enlightened".

You have a bone to pick with TPTB and you decide an outcome and THEN try to make the events fit the theory.

The exact opposite of how a real forensic investigation is done.
"Everybody lies."
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2014 10:09 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
'Bout time this thread got properly shilled from Team Snake! Yeah, okay, it was a great job and the LEOs and Sedensky did a great job. We're completely enlightened. Now go work another thread and earn your beer money.
Dudeashaneo

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04/27/2014 10:35 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
...




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


No, that was what police were doing while children lay dying.

But they DID have a reason. And that is that shots were being fired until 9:51:31 a.m.

The police's actions only make sense if someone was shooting until 9:51:31 a.m.

And someone was.

Only with a theory of 'shooter down at 9:51:31' does the first call for an ambulance to the scene at 9:57 make sense.

Otherwise, you're saying that Newtown and state cops let children bleed to death for over 17 minutes after shooter down before calling in a rig.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56211047


Sounds to me like they got the survivors out and into care as the situation warrented it.

I don't see why YOU seem to think that in a matter of minutes they would have an absolute handle on what was safe and what was not. In horrific situations such as this a little chaos is inevitable...

however...

your premise that it would have been safe for EMS to start combing the place immediately on arrival is a bit simplistic.

It is not EMS's job to do that in what MIGHT be an active shooting situation.

This entire situation had to be a horrific situation to be involved in...

I get REALLY PISSED off from all you armchair investigators
second guessing all decisions made AFTER THE FACT when you no way in hell have a clear picture as to what was happening at the time.

Then you come to all these ludicrous conclusions based primarily on conjecture and pass them off as absolute fact...

sickening...

morbid...

it's no wonder the authorities are so hesitant to provide detailed information on events such as these with ghouls such as yourself picking at the details.

It's the typical chain of events practised by the GLP so-called "enlightened".

You have a bone to pick with TPTB and you decide an outcome and THEN try to make the events fit the theory.

The exact opposite of how a real forensic investigation is done.
 Quoting: G. House



glassesoff Shilamundo


Look all kidding aside. You really are pissed off? AC suggests the chaos is still happening at 1:30pm while Mr Vance is having this press conference suggesting the main part of the event is over. The governor is already talking with the families. That should strike anyone as odd.




Do you not understand that in this press conference Vance states and continues to re-state in later press conferences that NPD and CSP immediately began an active shooter search, search every crack and crevis of the school and evacuate all students and staff.

That means they had the perp isolated relatively fast and were able to start moving kids out.

Finally you still cannot seem to find the right answer. Either it was unsafe or the wounded did not warrant EMS attention. Which is it?
Is there a chance we could get some honesty up in here?
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2014 10:54 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
First and foremost it was not safe to enter.

LEO got everyone out that they could and were evaluating the situation.

Do YOU think for some inexpicable reason that the TOTAL situation was absolutely clear immediately on arrival?

Secondly the shooter did a thorough job on the victims that he shot, he did not shoot them once, close range hits with .223 explodes heads.

So yes, unfortunately the victims that were shot were beyond hope. At that point it was a crime scene and you want as few people as possible tracking through the blood, body fluids, brains, bone fragments, body tissue, as possible.

I do not understand why this is so unfathomable to Sandy Hook tards.

Unless you have irrefutable proof that someone bled to death from being shot in the foot?
 Quoting: G. House



LOL!

Blood? What blood? I believe even Vance answered that way when he was questioned about what was done on the cleaning up of the blood.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31185579




So how many people tracked through the building that day?

So you call the people that don't agree to the official story "Sandy Hook tards"?? LOL! It's better than burying your head in the ground and lapping up the media's interpretation. YOu're pathetic! I guess better to be a 'tard than in denial!
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2014 11:23 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
I see a lot of threads like this but rarely comment.

First of all the response times from my experience of what my local EMS and LEO are capable of are not out of line.

For some reason you expect the EMS to rush into unsecured areas with no fore thought whatsoever?

And all this talk about no traumahawks and whatnot.

Do you friggen realize what a horrific scene the LEO's came upon? Do you realize that small bodies shot multiple times that have grey matter splattered from their heads are beyond help?

Give it a friggen break please.
 Quoting: G. House


One child was supposedly shot 11 times.

At close range.

Grey matter? There would not be anything left if a small child was shot 11 times as less than 50 yards - its almost point blank in terms of velocity.

11 times?! Would there be a body to recognize?

But still - no blood. If this played then splatter should be on the windows. Its not.

Fake.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/28/2014 01:16 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
All YOU armchair quarterbacks are directly contradicting CSP personnel.

Because those CSP personnel on scene were SCREAMING for ambulances. And when no one would send ambulances, they used cruisers and an SUV to take bleeding children to the hospital.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/28/2014 01:24 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
...




Great place to make my point again. In this press conference Vance never mentions EMS and in fact says they began an immediate evacuation of the school.

Well if the kids can be brought out to the parking lot and walked down the road to the fire house to meet with parents it should be safe to send in EMS.
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


No, that was what police were doing while children lay dying.

But they DID have a reason. And that is that shots were being fired until 9:51:31 a.m.

The police's actions only make sense if someone was shooting until 9:51:31 a.m.

And someone was.

Only with a theory of 'shooter down at 9:51:31' does the first call for an ambulance to the scene at 9:57 make sense.

Otherwise, you're saying that Newtown and state cops let children bleed to death for over 17 minutes after shooter down before calling in a rig.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56211047


Sounds to me like they got the survivors out and into care as the situation warrented it.

I don't see why YOU seem to think that in a matter of minutes they would have an absolute handle on what was safe and what was not. In horrific situations such as this a little chaos is inevitable...

however...

your premise that it would have been safe for EMS to start combing the place immediately on arrival is a bit simplistic.

It is not EMS's job to do that in what MIGHT be an active shooting situation.

This entire situation had to be a horrific situation to be involved in...

I get REALLY PISSED off from all you armchair investigators
second guessing all decisions made AFTER THE FACT when you no way in hell have a clear picture as to what was happening at the time.

Then you come to all these ludicrous conclusions based primarily on conjecture and pass them off as absolute fact...

sickening...

morbid...

it's no wonder the authorities are so hesitant to provide detailed information on events such as these with ghouls such as yourself picking at the details.

It's the typical chain of events practised by the GLP so-called "enlightened".

You have a bone to pick with TPTB and you decide an outcome and THEN try to make the events fit the theory.

The exact opposite of how a real forensic investigation is done.
 Quoting: G. House


Do you friggin' realize that those very same LEOs were begging for ambulances? Do you friggin' realize that only one, single ambulance entered the scene that day, and then left, with only a single patient? Do you friggin' realize that LEOs continued to beg for ambulances and that Newtown dispatch refused to send them in or didn't otherwise hear their requst due to lack of coordination between Newtown and CSP?

Do you friggin' realize that as soon as shooter was down at 9:51:31 a.m. - shot by police - that ALL LEOs on scene begged for ambulances and only ONE was available?

Because, though the 911 calls began at 9:35 a.m., not a single rig was staged on near the scene until 14 minutes later, and that those that arrived directly after were not allowed in?

Ambulances were NEEDED. Ambulances WERE NOT AVAILABLE.

An entire series of conferences was convened after Sandy Hook to change EMS response protocol to prioritize hemorrhage control, because children at Sandy Hook who *could have been saved* were not saved.

Look up the Hartford Consensus. The layman's translation of the Harford Consensus' findings is: Children at Sandy Hook would still be alive today if hemorrhage control were stressed in tandem with shooter containment.

We can crow all we want that people followed current protocol at SH, but when the reality is that some children might still be alive today, that's hard to swallow.

CSP was screaming for rigs, and none came. None. An SUV had to take kids to Danbury as a result.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/28/2014 01:37 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
There was no need to "comb the scene," though it wouldn't have been a bad idea.

17 children lay dying in two rooms, and two rooms only.

EMTs/paramedics were necessary to triage and transport.

Are you really saying you think this is the only case in known history with a 0% injury rate for students? That out of 20 students killed, not one, single other student received so much as a scratch?

It is total BS to suggest that a man fired into a pile of children confined to a small bathroom and killed every single one, except for a single exception, who received zero wounds.

That's just not acceptable.

The pile of children is ostensibly what saved Samantha Hatcher, and that same pile would have resulted in other children who were also far less wounded.

We know, in fact, that additional children from Room 8 survived in that bathroom, because CSP Sgt. Cario said he and Trooper Dragon personally carried out MULTIPLE children who were alive and loaded them into an SUV.

So it is total BS that rigs weren't needed. The shooter had (officially) been down and dead for nearly TWENTY MINUTES when these surviving children were carried out.

Imagine how much better their and other children's chances would have been if cops had noticed the gunsmoke and bodies in the north hall right away and found the shooter within say 3-5 minutes of arrival on scene instead of *twelve minutes* after arrival.

Of course we know that the real answer is that gunfire was going on, and on, and on, from the "final shot" at 9:40 all the way up to the cops' shots at 9:51:31 a.m.

Then, and only then, was the scene actually clear.

At some point, Newtown and CSP will stand up for themselves and acknowledge this reality.
Stickywicket

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04/28/2014 02:45 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
First and foremost it was not safe to enter.

LEO got everyone out that they could and were evaluating the situation.

Do YOU think for some inexpicable reason that the TOTAL situation was absolutely clear immediately on arrival?

Secondly the shooter did a thorough job on the victims that he shot, he did not shoot them once, close range hits with .223 explodes heads.

So yes, unfortunately the victims that were shot were beyond hope. At that point it was a crime scene and you want as few people as possible tracking through the blood, body fluids, brains, bone fragments, body tissue, as possible.

I do not understand why this is so unfathomable to Sandy Hook tards.

Unless you have irrefutable proof that someone bled to death from being shot in the foot?
 Quoting: G. House


Well, two (or possibly three) children were deemed not fatal and were taken out of the school to waiting ambulances. So, obviously not all of the victims were easily determined to be dead by having "exploded heads" and beyond hope. How do we know that there couldn't have been more?
Also, if you don't want to contaminate a crime scene, then why would you have a platoon of SWAT members tromping into the school doing that very thing?
Stickywicket

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04/28/2014 02:52 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
...


My post went right over your head.

Send in EMS to do what exactly?

Track up the crime scene?
 Quoting: G. House


No, that was what police were doing while children lay dying.

But they DID have a reason. And that is that shots were being fired until 9:51:31 a.m.

The police's actions only make sense if someone was shooting until 9:51:31 a.m.

And someone was.

Only with a theory of 'shooter down at 9:51:31' does the first call for an ambulance to the scene at 9:57 make sense.

Otherwise, you're saying that Newtown and state cops let children bleed to death for over 17 minutes after shooter down before calling in a rig.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56211047


Sounds to me like they got the survivors out and into care as the situation warrented it.

I don't see why YOU seem to think that in a matter of minutes they would have an absolute handle on what was safe and what was not. In horrific situations such as this a little chaos is inevitable...

however...

your premise that it would have been safe for EMS to start combing the place immediately on arrival is a bit simplistic.

It is not EMS's job to do that in what MIGHT be an active shooting situation.

This entire situation had to be a horrific situation to be involved in...

I get REALLY PISSED off from all you armchair investigators
second guessing all decisions made AFTER THE FACT when you no way in hell have a clear picture as to what was happening at the time.

Then you come to all these ludicrous conclusions based primarily on conjecture and pass them off as absolute fact...

sickening...

morbid...

it's no wonder the authorities are so hesitant to provide detailed information on events such as these with ghouls such as yourself picking at the details.

It's the typical chain of events practised by the GLP so-called "enlightened".

You have a bone to pick with TPTB and you decide an outcome and THEN try to make the events fit the theory.

The exact opposite of how a real forensic investigation is done.
 Quoting: G. House



glassesoff Shilamundo


Look all kidding aside. You really are pissed off? AC suggests the chaos is still happening at 1:30pm while Mr Vance is having this press conference suggesting the main part of the event is over. The governor is already talking with the families. That should strike anyone as odd.




Do you not understand that in this press conference Vance states and continues to re-state in later press conferences that NPD and CSP immediately began an active shooter search, search every crack and crevis of the school and evacuate all students and staff.

That means they had the perp isolated relatively fast and were able to start moving kids out.

Finally you still cannot seem to find the right answer. Either it was unsafe or the wounded did not warrant EMS attention. Which is it?
 Quoting: Dudeashaneo


Vance obviously wasn't prepped well for this press conference or else he would know, as the final report points out, that neither the NPD or the CSP entered the school immediately. They waited approximately 6 minutes before entering. This delay may or may not have been justifed but at least Vance should not fudge the truth.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 09:19 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Good point Stickywicket.

Another irony--the first guy says Malloy is giving the families information, yet at least one sorce at the fire house reported the governor saying he wasn't going to take questions from the parents of the deceased. Does anyone have a link to that report? I'm having a hard time finding it again.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 09:35 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Much of LE behavior on scene makes sense if you listen to the 911 call audio and hear the gunshots being fired from 9:35 a.m. all the way up to 9:31:51 a.m.

LE takes longer to enter building because shots are being fired at them as they approach (does anyone really believe these shots "accidentally went out classroom windows in the direction of arriving police?")

It remains possible that someone was actually shooting from the parking lot or woods. Search dogs followed a trail from the suspect veh up to the side of the school, where the dog then "pulled hard" into the woods.

LE takes until 9:51:31 to contain one or more suspects not because it really took them almost 12 minutes to find a dead guy, but because it took them almost 12 minutes to 1) approach through a hail of bullets, 2) break into a locked school through a reinforced side door, 3) chase one or more suspects through the building and/or negotiate with a guy holding hostages and finally 4) storm Room 10 and drop someone.

Or something like that.

Otherwise, you have to believe that, with complete silence and zero gunfire after 9:40, it took 11.5 minutes to find a dead shooter lying right next to a bunch of victims in the only part of the school affected,
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 09:36 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Sorry --being fired from 9:35 up until 9:51:31.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 09:39 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Also a good time to recall the crime lab report stating that not one, single .556 round of the 154 allegedly fired that day could be positively matched to the Bushmaster. Not one.
FlashBuzzkill

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04/28/2014 10:04 AM

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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
If the shooter was down at 9:40 why wait for a tactical ems team coming all the way from Danbury to arrive instead of letting Newtown EMS work the scene and assess the victims? That was a 20 minute window when lives might have been saved instead of waiting. The whole story reeks of bullshit.

FYI: Only 1 child is listed as dying from a shot to the head.

Last Edited by FlashBuzzkill on 04/28/2014 10:10 AM
Gen. John B Gordon and Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest were the finest citizen-soldiers birthed in America.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 10:12 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Couldn't agree more. It's pretty eye opening to read some of the reports from other mass shootings.
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 10:16 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
So what is up with the CSP lobbing accusations at Newtown for "waiting?" how does CSP benefit from doing this rather than just saying nothing?

They didn't seem compelled to point out the other problems with the case, so what might their incentive be to rock the otherwise-unified boat by being basically the first agency to say one thing negative about that day?
Anonymous Coward
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04/28/2014 11:20 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: Problematic EMS/LE response times AKA 9:40 final shot is bunk
Since this has never played itself out in public it pretty damning.

We get people coming in asking legitimate questions and others shouting them down. That's fine but the reason is obvious. The whole story was never told other than as an Urban Legend. They fast forwarded from tragic event to healing and fund raising.

Then the LEO and lawmakers decide that hiding information to " protect " the families was way more important than any real analysis of the event.

And here we are. Wondering WTF really happened.





GLP