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Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre

 
waterman  (OP)

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08/06/2014 09:10 PM

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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Our Sacred Sages had a tradition that in the beginning [of the End Times] there would arise a Messiah [i.e. Anointed Saviour] from the house of Joseph who will reign over the Ten Tribes. He will wage wars and all of Israel will be gathered together under his banner. This will continue until later on, a descendant of David will appear and he will reign over them....
A transformation will take place. The Ten Tribes and the stick of Joseph will draw themselves closer unto the stick of Judah, and this too, will be through the agency of a Prophet and by miracles.
The Commentary of "Malbim" on Ezekiel 37:15


The story of Joseph in the Bible is an historical account of what really did happen to Joseph, the ancestor of people in Britain and America, as well as other areas. The story of Joseph, in addition to being an historical account of what happened to a particular person named Joseph, is also symbolic of what will happen to his descendants. In Rabbinical tradition we have the concept of the “Mashiach ben Yoseph” (Messiah, son of Joseph), who will be a DESCENDANT OF JOSEPH. “Mashiach ben Yoseph” also represents the actions of the descendants of Joseph in the Last Days and the times leading up to these last days. In Jewish tradition there will be two Messiahs: “Mashiach ben Yoseph” (Messiah, son of Joseph), and “Mashiach ben David” (Messiah, son of David).

The Two Messiahs

The concept of the Messiah is derived from the definition of “Mashiach.” “Mashiach” means “anointed one” in Hebrew. A person could be anointed in order to be consecrated for a special purpose. For instance, in times of war a special priest was “anointed” to declare before the Israelite soldiers their God-ordained duty to fight bravely (Deuteronomy 19;2-4). The kings were ALSO anointed. The idea of an anointed savior, of a “Mashiah” i.e. Messiah, is contained in the Prophets. The “Messiah” was to be descended from King David. He was to be the “Messiah, son of David.” In addition to the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID, a tradition existed that there would also be a “Messiah, son of Joseph” who would come shortly before the “Messiah, son of David.” The MESSIAH, SON OF JOSEPH was to be a descendant of Joseph, from the Tribe of Ephraim. According to the Biblical Commentary known as the Malbim (1809-1879), the MESSIAH, SON OF JOSEPH, was to head the Lost Ten Tribes in the latter days in the period leading up to the return of the Lost Ten Tribes and their eventual re-unification with Judah. The full name of the MALBIM was Meir Leib ben Yechiel Michael [Weiser], but he is called “MALBIM” for short. He lived in 1809-1879 CE. The Malbim comments on Ezekiel 37:
THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME AGAIN UNTO ME, SAYING, MOREOVER, THOU SON OF MAN, TAKE THEE ONE STICK, AND WRITE UPON IT, FOR JUDAH, AND FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL HIS COMPANIONS:

THEN TAKE ANOTHER STICK, AND WRITE UPON IT, FOR JOSEPH, THE STICK OF EPHRAIM AND FOR ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL HIS COMPANIONS:

AND JOIN THEM ONE TO ANOTHER INTO ONE STICK; AND THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND.


AND WHEN THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEE, SAYING, WILT THOU NOT SHEW US WHAT THOU MEANEST BY THESE? SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD;

BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH, WHICH IS IN THE HAND OF EPHRAIM, AND THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL HIS FELLOWS, AND WILL PUT THEM WITH HIM, EVEN WITH THE STICK OF JUDAH, AND MAKE THEM ONE STICK, AND THEY SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND. AND THE STICKS WHEREON THOU WRITEST SHALL BE IN THINE HAND BEFORE THEIR EYES.

AND SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, WHITHER THEY BE GONE, AND WILL GATHER THEM ON EVERY SIDE, AND BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: AND I WILL MAKE THEM ONE NATION IN THE LAND UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL; AND ONE KING SHALL BE KING TO THEM ALL:

AND THEY SHALL BE NO MORE TWO NATIONS, NEITHER SHALL THEY BE DIVIDED INTO TWO KINGDOMS ANY MORE AT ALL. NEITHER SHALL THEY DEFILE THEMSELVES ANY MORE WITH THEIR IDOLS, NOR WITH THEIR DETESTABLE THINGS, NOR WITH ANY OF THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS:

BUT I WILL SAVE THEM OUT OF ALL THEIR DWELLING PLACES, WHEREIN THEY HAVE SINNED, AND WILL CLEANSE THEM: SO SHALL THEY BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD. AND DAVID MY SERVANT SHALL BE KING OVER THEM; AND THEY ALL SHALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD:

THEY SHALL ALSO WALK IN MY JUDGMENTS, AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES, AND DO THEM. AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE LAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UNTO JACOB MY SERVANT, WHEREIN YOUR FATHERS HAVE DWELT; AND THEY SHALL DWELL THEREIN, EVEN THEY, AND THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN FOR EVER:

AND MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER. MOREOVER I WILL MAKE A COVENANT OF PEACE WITH THEM; IT SHALL BE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THEM: AND I WILL PLACE THEM, AND MULTIPLY THEM, AND WILL SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM:

YEA, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. AND THE HEATHEN SHALL KNOW THAT I THE LORD DO SANCTIFY ISRAEL, WHEN MY SANCTUARY SHALL BE IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE.

[Ezekiel chapter 37: 15-28]
The Malbim explained the above verses that we have just read from the 37th chapter of Ezekiel in the following manner: [Ezekiel 37;15] "He [the Prophet] was commanded to take one stick and to write upon it, these words, ~FOR JUDAH AND FOR THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HIS COMPANIONS~; [this stick] represented Judah and those [others] joined unto him from the Children of Israel, such as the Tribe of Benjamin, and the Sons of Levi, and the rest of the people who had attached themselves to Judah.

[And he goes on in Ezekiel] "~And he took another stick, and he wrote upon it, these words: ~FOR JOSEPH, THE STICK OF EPHRAIM, AND FOR ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HIS COMPANIONS~; [this stick] represents Joseph who was the source of the tribe [of Ephraim]. From Joseph developed the Kingdom of Ephraim, which began with Jeroboam, and therefore [the stick of Joseph] is [also] termed , ~THE STICK OF EPHRAIM.

Ezekiel says: ~AND ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL~, for unto him [unto Joseph] were joined all of Israel which belong to the Ten Tribes... Our Sacred Sages had a tradition that in the beginning (of the End Times) would arise a Messiah, [i.e. Anointed Saviour], from the house of Joseph who will reign over the Ten Tribes. He will wage wars and all of Israel will be gathered together under his banner. [This will continue] until a descendant of David later appears and he will reign over them... [over all the tribes].

The Malbim continues: "A transformation will take place. The Ten Tribes and the stick of Joseph will draw themselves closer unto the stick of Judah, and this too, will be through the agency of a Prophet and by miracles".

The MALBIM connects the Prophecy in Ezekiel 37 with that in the Book of Micah chapter 5. The fifth chapter of Micah was explained in the historical sections of our work “The Tribes” by Yair Davidiy (first edition 1993, second edition 1999). The fifth chapter of Micah was seen to describe the union of King Josiah ben Amon of Judah with the Israelite-Scythian rulers of the Middle East at that time. The Scythians were actually the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons of Israelites exiled to Assyria and elsewhere in the Assyrian Empire. The Assyrians had settled the exiled Israelites in border areas and had also absorbed segments of them into the armed forces. The Kingdom of Assyria was attacked by outsiders and also suffered from the rebellions of peoples it had conquered. The Empire of Assyria became weakened so many of the peoples within the Assyrian Empire began to assert their independence. Part of the Israelite Exiles also asserted their independence in their places of Exile. The Israelite exiles had joined up with other groups. The Israelite Exiles can be identified as part of a confederation of peoples known as the Cimmerians. From the Cimmerians the Scythians and Goths emerged. The Scythians and Goths, who emerged from the Cimmerians, were also Israelites or at least Israelites were an important major element amongst them. The Assyrians made terms with the Scythians and attempted to use the Scythians against the enemies of Assyria. The Scythians became the protectors of Assyria. From being protectors of Assyria the Scythians progressed to take control of most of the Assyrian they Empire. The Scythians then attempted to join forces with the Kingdom of Judah and assisted King Josiah ben Amon of Judah against his enemies. King Josiah of Judah in turn assisted the Scythians. King Josiah of Judah made an attempt to resettle some of the Scythians in and around Beth-Shean in the former territory of Menasseh, in the northern part of Israel. This attempt was not successful. Eventually the Assyrians attempted to re-assert themselves and there were wars and changes of alliances. King Josiah of Judah lost his life fighting on behalf of the Scythians. At all events, the Scythians then fought against the Assyrians and they played the main role in destroying the Empire of Assyria. The Scythians destroyed Assyria. The main allies of the Scythians were the Medes and Babylonians. The Medes and Babylonians betrayed the Scythians and drove the Scythians northward into Southern Russia. From Southern Russia the Scythians later moved by stages to Western Europe. The Prophet Micah in Chapter Five, Talmudic passages, archaeological evidence, and historical accounts all confirm what we have just told you.

[Micah 5:1] NOW GATHER THYSELF IN TROOPS, O DAUGHTER OF TROOPS: HE HATH LAID SIEGE AGAINST US: THEY SHALL SMITE THE JUDGE OF ISRAEL WITH A ROD UPON THE CHEEK. [Micah 5:2] BUT THOU, BETHLEHEM EPHRATAH, THOUGH THOU BE LITTLE AMONG THE THOUSANDS OF JUDAH, YET OUT OF THEE SHALL HE COME FORTH UNTO ME THAT IS TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. [Micah 5:3] THEREFORE WILL HE GIVE THEM UP, UNTIL THE TIME THAT SHE WHICH TRAVAILETH HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN THE REMNANT OF HIS BRETHREN SHALL RETURN UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

The above verses speak of a King from the House of David who came out of Beth-Lehem. He shall rule over some of the exiled of Israel who will return. This is what King Josiah did. It is also what the Messiah is destined to do at first.

[Micah 5:4] AND HE SHALL STAND AND FEED IN THE STRENGTH OF THE LORD, IN THE MAJESTY OF THE NAME OF THE LORD HIS GOD; AND THEY SHALL ABIDE: FOR NOW SHALL HE BE GREAT UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH. [Micah 5:5] AND THIS MAN SHALL BE THE PEACE, WHEN THE ASSYRIAN SHALL COME INTO OUR LAND: AND WHEN HE SHALL TREAD IN OUR PALACES, THEN SHALL WE RAISE AGAINST HIM SEVEN SHEPHERDS, AND EIGHT PRINCIPAL MEN.

The Assyrians had entered the Lands of Israel and Judah in the past and they had trodden down the cities and palaces of Israel. The Israelite Scythians after being exiled became at first allies and protectors of Assyria. They were “SHEPHERDS”, or protectors, as Micah says, then they became the main rulers (“EIGHT PRINCIPAL MEN”) just as Micah describes the Israelites as doing.

[Micah 5:6] AND THEY [i.e. the Israelites] SHALL WASTE THE LAND OF ASSYRIA WITH THE SWORD, AND THE LAND OF NIMROD IN THE ENTRANCES THEREOF: THUS SHALL HE DELIVER US FROM THE ASSYRIAN, WHEN HE COMETH INTO OUR LAND, AND WHEN HE TREADETH WITHIN OUR BORDERS.

They shall destroy the land of Assyria. The Israelites will destroy Assyria just as the Assyrians had formerly destroyed the Land of Israel. This is what the Israelite-Scythians did. They destroyed Assyria.

[Micah 5:7] AND THE REMNANT OF JACOB SHALL BE IN THE MIDST OF MANY PEOPLE AS A DEW FROM THE LORD, AS THE SHOWERS UPON THE GRASS, THAT TARRIETH NOT FOR MAN, NOR WAITETH FOR THE SONS OF MEN. [Micah 5:8] AND THE REMNANT OF JACOB SHALL BE AMONG THE GENTILES IN THE MIDST OF MANY PEOPLE AS A LION AMONG THE BEASTS OF THE FOREST, AS A YOUNG LION AMONG THE FLOCKS OF SHEEP: WHO, IF HE GO THROUGH, BOTH TREADETH DOWN, AND TEARETH IN PIECES, AND NONE CAN DELIVER.

The Scythians after taking over the Assyrian Empire ruled over the Middle East and spread terror of their name everywhere just like the “British Lion” was later to do.

[Micah 5:9] THINE HAND SHALL BE LIFTED UP UPON THINE ADVERSARIES, AND ALL THINE ENEMIES SHALL BE CUT OFF.

What we have just described is the historical context of the fifth chapter of Micah. Nevertheless, in our book “The Tribes” we emphasized that the major intention of Chapter Five of The Book of Micah, was for the Messianic period. This Chapter Five of Micah may be considered to incidentally describe events concerning the temporary Judaean and Israelite (Scythian) re-union that once took place. These historical events were a kind of partial forerunner or prototypical model of the re-union that will take place in the future. The future re-union is yet to happen but it will occur in the Messianic Era or in the period leading up to it. The MALBIM in his commentary on this Fifth Chapter of Micah intended to also throw additional light on Chapter 37 in Ezekiel. The Malbim considered chapter five of Micah and Chapter 37 of Ezekiel as talking about the same events. A few extracts from the Commentary of the Malbim on chapter five of Micah helps us understand his Commentary on Chapter 37 of Ezekiel. The Malbim says on:

MALBIM on Micah 5;1: ".....It has already been clarified in Ezekiel 37, that in the End Time, the Ten Tribes will be the first to arouse themselves and over them will reign the Messiah [i.e. Anointed Saviour] Descendant of Joseph and they will accomplish great things.

"The Tribe of Judah who are scattered amongst the nations [and are] weakly and few will attach themselves [unto the Ten Tribes]. They [i.e. the Tribe of Judah, the Jews] will be of secondary importance [at first] in the kingdom of the Anointed Descendant of Joseph. [This will continue] until later there will arise the Anointed Descendant of David in the Might of The LORD. At that time they will all [both Joseph and Judah] accept upon themselves the Kingship of the House of David. Then wars will cease for the Gentiles will request [guidance from] him [i.e. from the Messiah]...

"He [the Prophet Micah] wants to describe the situation that will exist as long as the general ingathering will not be completed and all of the Exiled of Judah will still not be gathered together in the Land of Israel: Then, all that time, the House of Israel [meaning the Ten Tribes and the Anointed Descendant of Joseph who belongs to them] will be the principal party. They will be the warriors and the rulers. The House of Judah will be secondary [in importance] unto them. This was explained in Ezekiel [37;19]
“BEHOLD , I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH…“I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH…AND I WILL PUT UPON HIM THE STICK OF JUDAH”, i.e. the Malbim understands the verse to say that the stick of Judah will be put on the stick of Joseph. The Malbim understands this to mean that Judah will be secondary to Joseph.

The KJ version of this verse (Ezekiel 37;19) that the Malbim is referring to has it translated as:

"[Ezekiel 37:19] SAY UNTO THEM, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE STICK OF JOSEPH, WHICH IS IN THE HAND OF EPHRAIM, AND THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL HIS FELLOWS, AND WILL PUT THEM WITH HIM, EVEN WITH THE STICK OF JUDAH, AND MAKE THEM ONE STICK, AND THEY SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.

The King James seems to understand that the stick of Joseph will be put with the stick of Judah and not that the stick of Judah will be put with Joseph. This is just the opposite of how the Malbim understands the verse. In the original Hebrew the verse could be understood either way. At all events, The MALBIM understands the Hebrew as saying that Judah will be put on (attached to) Joseph (and therefore will be at first of secondary "attache"status importance to Joseph. In Genesis chapter 44 it is related how the brothers sold Joseph. Joseph later had become the virtual ruler of Egypt. Meanwhile the Land of Canaan like the Land of Egypt was stricken with famine. The brothers of Joseph went up to Egypt to buy grain. Joseph recognized his brothers but the brothers of Joseph did not recognize him. Joseph forced his brothers to go back to Canaan and eventually return accompanied by Benjamin the younger brother of Joseph by the same mother. Joseph then framed Benjamin and made Benjamin look like a thief. Joseph threatened to keep Benjamin as a slave. Judah stepped forward and approached Joseph and pleaded on behalf of Benjamin. Judah offered to serve as a slave instead of Benjamin. The Commentators say that because Judah took responsibility for Benjamin Judah merited to be given Messianic responsibility as part of his Tribal Destiny. From Judah emerges the House of David and the future Messiah. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Lubavitcher (Chabad) Rabbi, made the following observations on the action of Judah (Genesis: VaYigash). Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was considered inspired by his followers and by many others. The relevant verse says:

[GENESIS 44:18] THEN JUDAH CAME NEAR UNTO HIM, AND SAID, OH MY LORD, LET THY SERVANT, I PRAY THEE, SPEAK A WORD IN MY LORD'S EARS, AND LET NOT THINE ANGER BURN AGAINST THY SERVANT: FOR THOU ART EVEN AS PHARAOH.

Commentary: On the verse: “FOR THOU ART EVEN AS PHARAOH”: Rabbi Schneerson quotes the source saying that Judah meant to say that Joseph is as powerful as Pharaoh and that Judah acknowledges his authority. Judah acknowledged the authority of Joseph. Because of this Judah merited the Promise in Ezekiel 37, “MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER”. The Rabbi says that in order for Judah to bring on the Messiah, to help the Messiah come, and realize the promise given to his seed (“MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE THEIR PRINCE FOR EVER”) Judah must first do as the Patriarch Judah did when he CAME NEAR UNTO Joseph and he acknowledged the authority of Joseph and initially was influenced from Joseph.

The Rabbi then went on to mention how the USA is a merciful state that does kindness and enables the Jews to practice their religion and has good principles. He used the term “Chesed” meaning kindness. The USA does “Chesed”, kindness. The Kings of the Ten Tribes Kingdom of northern Israel before their exile were also described as “merciful kings”, kings of “chesed”, Kings who do kindness (1-Kings 20;31).

Regarding the future Messiah son of Joseph: The traditional Aramaic Translation of the Prophets (Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11) says the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is descended from Joshua the son of Nun from the Tribe of Ephraim. Other sources say that the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is a descendant of Jeroboam the son of Nebath (Zohar Chadash, Balak 56b). Jeroboam had led the northern Ten Tribes when they rebelled against the House of David and broke away and formed their own kingdom of Israel (1-Kings chapter 12). All the Israelites in the separate kingdom of Israel were later exiled by the Assyrians and became the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH who is the descendant of Jeroboam will bring about the re-unification of the Lost Ten Tribes (Joseph) with Judah. He will therefore rectify the sin of his ancestor by re-uniting with Judah. He will make good what his forefather had done wrong. We too if we want to, and try hard, can make good what our fathers and forefathers and we ourselves have done wrong in the past. We can build a better future for the sake of our peoples and for the sake of our children and their children after them. This is our duty.

The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in Jewish Tradition in later generations was taken to be a symbolic figure. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH was understood to represent an historical process in which the Jewish people would return to their land and rebuild themselves by natural means. Later the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID would appear and impart a spiritual dimension to the physical-material political structure that the process represented by the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH had prepared. This does not nullify the belief that the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is to be a real person. It merely supplements it. It adds to it. It helps us understand it. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH was to appear before the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. In some sources the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is called “The First Redeemer.” The “Second Redeemer” will be the Messiah son of David.

The Messiah son of Joseph will be the leader of the Lost Ten Tribes. He will be descended from Joseph. In a sense The Messiah son of Joseph may be understood to represent Joseph and the Lost Ten Tribes, as a collective body. By considering some of the deeds and actions of The Messiah son of Joseph we can gain further evidence as to who the descendants of Joseph are today. Some points concerning the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH that are to be found in the book “Kol HaTor” (“The Voice of the Turtledove” in Hebrew). This book is a collection of the sayings of a great and famous Rabbi (Eliyahu of Vilna) and his followers in the eighteenth century. The book deals with the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Rabbi Elyahu of Vilna is considered to have been one of the greatest Rabbis of all time. The ideas in this book “Kol HaTor” are all based on Biblical or related sources. Similar to Cyrus king of Persia “Kol HaTor” says [1.6.1] The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is similar to Cyrus the Persian Monarch who encouraged the Jews to return from the Babylonian Exile and rebuild the Temple. Cyrus, the King of Persia, in some respects may be considered a forerunner (or prototype) of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Verses associated with Cyrus (Isaiah 42) are actually to a degree applicable to the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH will be revealed little by little.

The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in some sources is referred to as the “Messiah son [descendant] of Ephraim.” The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is associated with the saving of lives and the rescue of Israelites and in this he is assisted by Judah and by the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. By way of Comment: The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH, as we have seen, is connected with the ingathering of the exiles. America and Britain both in their own way in the past did helped the ingathering of the exiles of Judah to the Land of Israel. Our Prayers Are Needed “Kol HaTor” says [1.24] “With our deeds and prayers we shall come to the aid of MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. Through our exertions with all our might of self-arousal [arousal from below as distinct from arousal from heaven] we will achieve the union of the two messiahs, the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH and the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID, ‘the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah’ [mentioned by Ezekiel 37]. [The two sticks will join together just as Judah and Joseph will join together].

[In Ezekiel 37:16, Ezekiel was told to take one stick, FOR JUDAH. Ezekeil was then told to take ANOTHER STICK, FOR JOSEPH. Ezekiel was told in Ezekiel 37:17 to join the two sticks together. THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND. The two sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) were to first become one in the hand of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 37:19 God says that the two sticks SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.] [Ezekiel says that] First the two sticks will become one in your hands and afterwards they will be one in my [God’s] hand.” [i.e. This means that: First Judah and Joseph should try to join together from below and afterwards God will help them from above]. On the same theme: “Kol HaTor” emphasizes The Two Sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) Must be Joined Together Through Our Initiative! [2.101] Ezekiel (37) speaks of the stick of Joseph [and Judah and the union of Judah with Joseph]. This concerns the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The Redemption is dependent on the union of the two sticks, the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah. These are the two Messiahs, the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH and the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. [It says: “Join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in your hand” (Ezekiel 37;17)].

At first the union [of Judah with Joseph] comes about through arousal from below by way of nature [through our actions] as it says, “Join them one to another into one stick.” And afterwards [the re-union is confirmed] in a miraculous manner, [through the hand of God, as it says in Ezekiel “they shall become on in Your hand” meaning they shall become re-united in the hand of God! Comes From the North “Kol HaTor” says [2.11] “His glory is like the firstborn of his bull” (Deuteronomy 33;17). The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH comes from the north side and will be aroused by himself. “Kol HaTor” says [2.17] The guardian angel of Esau will be pulled down by the guardian angel of Joseph (This is also spoken about in the Biblical Book of Obadiah. We will discuss this subject and the Book of Obadiah. Expands Borders of Israel, Wars Against Amalek “Kol HaTor” says [2.36] “Enlarge the place of your tent and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations...” (Isaiah 54;2). The commandment to expand the borders [of Israel] is part of the task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH has the duty of waging war against Amalek and of expanding the borders of Israel and of protecting Israel from destruction.

Ingathers the Exiles “Kol HaTor” says [2.40] “His [i.e. Joseph’s] bow abode in strength” (Genesis 49;24). This should be an important principle for us. We have to stand obstinately strong in the holy work of gathering in the exiles which is the task of the first redeemer [i.e. of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH]. Purifies the Land of Israel “Kol HaTor” says [2.41] “And Joseph was governor over the land” (Genesis 42;6). This means he will overcome all the forces of impurity. This is one of the great tasks of the First Redeemer [of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH]: to extirpate the spirit of impurity from the country by means of settling the Holy Land. When the Holy Land is not settled [with Israelites] a spirit of impurity settles over it. [When the Holy Land is settled with Israelites the Land becomes pure]. Joshua ben Nun Was a Forerunner “Kol HaTor” says [2.44]



“Kol HaTor” says [2.75] The Messiah Son of Joseph arouses not only Israel but also the Peoples of the World to Repent. Jonah the Prophet had the aspect of MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in his generation. His task is, “to rebuke many nations” (Isaiah 2). Turns Defeat Into Victory “Kol HaTor” says [2.91] The characteristic of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is that out of tribulation he brings salvation. The Heavenly Ladder “Kol HaTor” says [2.97] A ladder on the ground and its head reaching to heaven (Genesis 28). This is an aspect of Joseph as is known. What happened to Jacob happened to Joseph. All of his deeds were an arousal from below with an accompanying assistance from heaven. Joseph was the son of Jacob and Rachel and had the characteristics of both Jacob and Rachel. Ingathers Exiles, Rebuilds Jerusalem, Settles the Wilderness “Kol HaTor” says [2.117] The rulership of Joseph overcomes all impurity.

The task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is to remove the spirit of impurity from the Land through the ingathering of exiles, rebuilding Jerusalem, and the planting of the wilderness. Ransoming Captives “Kol HaTor” says [2.118] “And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion” (Isaiah 35;10): The task of ransoming captives belongs to the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH who performs it by ingathering the Exiles…The Major Ingathering of the Exiles cannot be less than 600,000…They will come with rejoicing and happiness. Comment: “Kol HaTor” says The Major Ingathering of Exiles cannot be less than 600,000. 600,000 was taken to be a key number. It is interesting to note that when Israel declared its Independence in 1948 the total Jewish population in the Land at that time was a bit more than 600,000 which was the key number mentioned by “Kol HaTor” about two hundred years beforehand. Reveals Secrets of the Torah “Kol HaTor” says [122] “And Pharoah called Joseph’s name Zaphenat Paneah” [i.e. Uncover of Secrets] (Genesis 41;45). One of the tasks of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH in each generation is to reveal the secrets of the Torah. Horns of a Unicorn “Kol HaTor” says [131] “His horns are the horns of a unicorn with which he strikes the peoples” (Deuteronomy 33). The main task of the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH is the everlasting war against Amalek. Comment: The horns of a unicorn are linked with the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH.



Joseph and Judah
-Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Favor ain't fair

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thresh
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08/06/2014 09:43 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Shhhhhhh.....its a secret.
 Quoting: waterman


No, I will not shhhh.

What the fuck is your agenda?

Because while you promote this bullshit, the truth is being denied the people of the World that they continue to suffer under the weight of their bondage.

You keep them in that bondage by promoting ignorance of themselves, and an Idea that they are supposed to be submissive to a race of liars and thieves.

Do not tell me to shhhh...

Answer the fucking question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56366520


Omg you're my hero. Too damn funny!

And NOW we talking.
redhouserebel

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08/06/2014 10:08 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Dude - OP - your last post - the sages thing - too long to quote - oosh - a lot to say about that - but first - are you in some way implying somewhere in there that Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to fulfil - some of what these learned 19th century scholars have interpreted?


If so - someone - please - they didn't exactly get it right.



xx



The unification concept is correct - of course it is - but not sure these lads had the whole thing sorted - there has to be a clearer and more accurate analysis available - beyond learned interpretation and fortunately there is -



I will try to find some time - as it is complex - but it begins with the secret hidden language in the languages - which when understood it cannot be denied - then there is the .... organisational code - of the twelve sons - who they are/were - what they represent etc - then there is a better understanding of the secret language and vice versa of the order of things - of the system - it becomes indisputable as opposed to... interpretation.




xxxx

Last Edited by redhouserebel on 08/06/2014 10:09 PM
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redhouserebel

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08/06/2014 10:28 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Dude - OP - your last post - the sages thing - too long to quote - oosh - a lot to say about that - but first - are you in some way implying somewhere in there that Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to fulfil - some of what these learned 19th century scholars have interpreted?


If so - someone - please - they didn't exactly get it right.



xx



The unification concept is correct - of course it is - but not sure these lads had the whole thing sorted - there has to be a clearer and more accurate analysis available - beyond learned interpretation and fortunately there is -



I will try to find some time - as it is complex - but it begins with the secret hidden language in the languages - which when understood it cannot be denied - then there is the .... organisational code - of the twelve sons - who they are/were - what they represent etc - then there is a better understanding of the secret language and vice versa of the order of things - of the system - it becomes indisputable as opposed to... interpretation.




xxxx
 Quoting: redhouserebel




If I might - briefly - interpret my understanding of what your learned rabbis were saying:

1. there is no two state solution - I agree

2. Israel extends its borders - this does not mean the annihilation of a people based on religious grouping or ethnicity or geographical location - as implied by your blog up there

Jeez - you can't have it both ways to suit your own personal ideologies


It is completely incorrect.

Netanyahu does not act with the authority of God - G-d Jehovah - the highest - the supreme being - the whoever you want to call it and neither do anyone who act following false philosophy and misinterpretation - no matter how learned a person is who advises in any way - there has to be absolute proof to act this way - and there is none in what is written above - but it does exist - and it does not follow the interpretation either of the learned scholarly rabbis of yesteryear - nor anyone else's interpretation of what they have said - when it suits their own person ideals or goals - this is disgraceful.

I am sorry - but it is.


X
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redhouserebel

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08/06/2014 10:32 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Dude - OP - your last post - the sages thing - too long to quote - oosh - a lot to say about that - but first - are you in some way implying somewhere in there that Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to fulfil - some of what these learned 19th century scholars have interpreted?


If so - someone - please - they didn't exactly get it right.



xx



The unification concept is correct - of course it is - but not sure these lads had the whole thing sorted - there has to be a clearer and more accurate analysis available - beyond learned interpretation and fortunately there is -



I will try to find some time - as it is complex - but it begins with the secret hidden language in the languages - which when understood it cannot be denied - then there is the .... organisational code - of the twelve sons - who they are/were - what they represent etc - then there is a better understanding of the secret language and vice versa of the order of things - of the system - it becomes indisputable as opposed to... interpretation.




xxxx
 Quoting: redhouserebel




If I might - briefly - interpret my understanding of what your learned rabbis were saying:

1. there is no two state solution - I agree

2. Israel extends its borders - this does not mean the annihilation of a people based on religious grouping or ethnicity or geographical location - as implied by your blog up there

Jeez - you can't have it both ways to suit your own personal ideologies


It is completely incorrect.

Netanyahu does not act with the authority of God - G-d Jehovah - the highest - the supreme being - the whoever you want to call it and neither do anyone who act following false philosophy and misinterpretation - no matter how learned a person is who advises in any way - there has to be absolute proof to act this way - and there is none in what is written above - but it does exist - and it does not follow the interpretation either of the learned scholarly rabbis of yesteryear - nor anyone else's interpretation of what they have said - when it suits their own person ideals or goals - this is disgraceful.

I am sorry - but it is.


X
 Quoting: redhouserebel



And I sincerely do not mean any offence whatsoever to your learned rabbis - they have worked hard to find understanding - nor do i mean to cause offence to those who interpret their interpretations - but I have to say - the interpretations implied by these interpretations are highly offensive in themselves - and their conveyance by any action is not the work of God - not now - not ever.




X
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redhouserebel

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08/06/2014 10:35 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Dude - OP - your last post - the sages thing - too long to quote - oosh - a lot to say about that - but first - are you in some way implying somewhere in there that Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to fulfil - some of what these learned 19th century scholars have interpreted?


If so - someone - please - they didn't exactly get it right.



xx



The unification concept is correct - of course it is - but not sure these lads had the whole thing sorted - there has to be a clearer and more accurate analysis available - beyond learned interpretation and fortunately there is -



I will try to find some time - as it is complex - but it begins with the secret hidden language in the languages - which when understood it cannot be denied - then there is the .... organisational code - of the twelve sons - who they are/were - what they represent etc - then there is a better understanding of the secret language and vice versa of the order of things - of the system - it becomes indisputable as opposed to... interpretation.




xxxx
 Quoting: redhouserebel




If I might - briefly - interpret my understanding of what your learned rabbis were saying:

1. there is no two state solution - I agree

2. Israel extends its borders - this does not mean the annihilation of a people based on religious grouping or ethnicity or geographical location - as implied by your blog up there

Jeez - you can't have it both ways to suit your own personal ideologies


It is completely incorrect.

Netanyahu does not act with the authority of God - G-d Jehovah - the highest - the supreme being - the whoever you want to call it and neither do anyone who act following false philosophy and misinterpretation - no matter how learned a person is who advises in any way - there has to be absolute proof to act this way - and there is none in what is written above - but it does exist - and it does not follow the interpretation either of the learned scholarly rabbis of yesteryear - nor anyone else's interpretation of what they have said - when it suits their own person ideals or goals - this is disgraceful.

I am sorry - but it is.


X
 Quoting: redhouserebel



And I sincerely do not mean any offence whatsoever to your learned rabbis - they have worked hard to find understanding - nor do i mean to cause offence to those who interpret their interpretations - but I have to say - the interpretations implied by these interpretations are highly offensive in themselves - and their conveyance by any action is not the work of God - not now - not ever.




X
 Quoting: redhouserebel




But if any are offended by me saying this - then good - you should be off-ended - I am sickened.


x
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Base12

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08/07/2014 03:06 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Historically, Jews had evolved mostly from the Tribe of...

01) Judah - Lion
02) Simeon - Fortress/Castle
03) Binyamin - Wolf
04) Levi - Breastplate

...who had all together formed the ancient Kingdom of Judah (alongside the remnants of the Northern Kingdom of Israel who migrated to their Southern counterpart and assimilated there).

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

01) to 04) = Stick of Judah
05) to 12) = Stick of Ephraim

05)Joseph (Ephraim/Manasseh)
06)Asher
07)Gad
08)Naphtali
09)Dan
10)Zebulun
11)Issachar
12)Reuben

Ten names in above list (Ten Lost Tribes?). Fourteen names total.
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Base12

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08/07/2014 03:22 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
If YOU believe in talking snakes that is.

Who here believes in talking snakes?

Ever seen one?

LOL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 53202638

Yes.

I wholeheartedly believe in Talking Snakes.

I have two of them named Lucifer seething through my entire being. So do you. So do all of us.

caduceus

That's God's "inside joke" by the way. Get it?

Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not"

Wait until everyone wakes up to this fact. There's your lulz.

Yes the Snake RNA Strands of Phosp-Horus talks.

unclemikey-584

unclemikey-420

Lots of people want to hear what Lucy says about the Lost Word...

unclemikey-448

So, just so we are clear...

RNA is a Talking Snake that lives inside of us.

KD
Visit my website...
[link to www.mostholyplace.com]
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 04:32 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
QUOTE "the millennial sacrificial system will be instituted as a commemorative celebration of the completeness of the last and efficacious sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer. The temple will truly become a house of prayer for all nations." UNQUOTE

Blasphemous.

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,


How can anyone believe that "a millennial sacrificial system will be instituted"?
But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners

If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
( sacrifice=condemning the innocent)
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 05:43 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Hi waterman. Hope you've been doing well. Interesting thread. I've thought about the northern and southern kingdom kinda in the same way you have, minus the two witnesses aspect. Didn't know much about that topic back then.

Have you ever thought about how easily it would be for people nowadays to try to replicate the events in the Bible and try to fulfill prophecy themselves by copying the "Playbook"? I think about this, and I think about how God must have "known" this too and He's steps ahead of them. I can't wait to see how He has orchestrated the whole thing for the good. It's going to be mind boggling. He's such a genius, beyond genius level, beyond comprehension. I think the book of Malachi plays into His grand scheme somehow, as do all His words.

Are we really meant to understand the final outcome or be left in the dark, hanging on faith? Is everything set in stone, or is there room for free will? I think that all the answers lie in the Bible, but for anyone to get too close to that kind of knowledge, they obviously have to go through the Fire. Paul had to endure his thorn in the flesh. Solomon was perplexed by too much wisdom. David sinned. Moses screwed up. Noah....

I'm really humbled by the mere fact that God even gives us the time of day, and I know that's my own sinful nature speaking. The Master of the Universe, of all things known and unknown, and to stoop to our level. Nothing in my life has gone the way I wanted, and yet I feel Him closer than ever. It's such a wonderful paradox, it makes me cry. Some might classify me as bipolar, for I've experienced the lowest of lows and the highest of highs (at least in my own puny mind), and always it circles back to me standing in awe and respect of Him who controls it all, despite my shortcomings. I still, to this day, cannot get over that simple fact that...He loves us in spite of. In spite of... He is incredible. Even those words sound stupid to describe Him.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17856444


AMEN! EVERYONE SHOULD FEEL THIS WAY, BECAUSE IT IS TRUE!!!! GOD LOVES US! HE TESTS US, MORE AND MORE EACH DAY! TIME IS SHORT, BE READY FOR THE COMING OF THE SON OF GOD!


who lived thousands of years ago has nothing to do with today.... why live in the past?
 Quoting: Funnycat


Let's just say for fun. Next year or the year after your country the greatest country and super-power in the world was destroyed and you were lucky enough not to have to die from pestilence or starvation. You are taken into captivity and made a slave through what I will call a furnace of affliction. How would you come out of that furnace. Would you seek God or would you curse God. The secret to widson is knowing that history repeats itself. God has 12 tribes of Israel. Only 2 are in geographical Israel today. Those other 10 tribes are going to have to go through the furnace of affliction before they join those other 2 and those other 2 are going to have to come to the realization Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Your world is repetative....day after day the same thing...but soon it will flip upside down and you won't know if today is the last day you live. There are no atheists in foxholes....prepare for you life to change because very soon it will. For the better or for the worse will be your choice.
Knowing the past is to know the future!
 Quoting: waterman


I understand what you are saying now, OP. Yes, many will go through the Great Tribulation. The Great Trial will end when Christ, our Lord, returns. That is when the doors will be shut and no one else will have a chance at salvation. Saw a video on how they were developing the "GOD GENE" virus, which makes you disgusted with the mention of God, basically. There is a verse in Revelation that speaks of how people won't be able to seek God anymore, because all that are left will not believe or never will, until we all return.
Firastorm
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08/07/2014 05:51 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
QUOTE "the millennial sacrificial system will be instituted as a commemorative celebration of the completeness of the last and efficacious sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer. The temple will truly become a house of prayer for all nations." UNQUOTE

Blasphemous.

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,


How can anyone believe that "a millennial sacrificial system will be instituted"?
But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners

If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
( sacrifice=condemning the innocent)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11046360


Who is innocent? Not you, not I, not anyone on Earth is innocent. We are all sinners. There is no sacrifice. The true test of faith will come when they are beating you and telling you to denounce your God and deny Christ. Will you fold!? Will you suffer for the sake of your faith? Great rewards are for those who endure. Remember Simon, He was stoned to death, and He came for him. He did not stop the stoning, but, Simon could see that his Lord was waiting for him.

You really have to believe, trust, and love God and Christ. That is it, tell others without being too harsh, while others you must snatch them up and show them the importance of believing. I believe because I have seen, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 05:55 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
I just want to know if David is coming back as a King. Or possibly as a witness. I feel this is my birthright and that he should stand as an earthly King down deeply in my heart.
 Quoting: Lion of Judah 4239957


David will appear when the champion of the enemy shows his cowardly face on the battlefield and starts shouting his blasphemies at God and His people.

Don't you know his spirit yet?
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 05:58 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
discover the secrets of your future
anonymous
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
King David will rule over all Israel. Contrary to the what the English twit said earlier it is NOT "David de Rothschild". Some fools will never understand the Word. The truth to that is in I Corinthians 2.
waterman  (OP)

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08/07/2014 10:44 AM

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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
THE HIGH PRIEST ANOINTED FOR WAR


A subject not mentioned in most Bible studies, is that of the "second High Priest," who was called the (High) Priest Anointed for War. Scripture only gives a brief non-specific mention to this person and his role:

Deuteronomy 20:1-3: When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them.

This High Priest did not serve in the Tabernacle/Temple as did the High Priest we read much more about in the Tenakh. Rather, his assignment centered around the caring and preparedness of the men going to battle -- to assure they were prepared physically and spiritually, even sending home those he deemed unfit to fight.

The first Priest anointed for war that we find mention of, was Phineas, the grandson of Aaron:

Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus XX:2 - Elisheba the daughter of Amminadab did not enjoy happiness in the world. True, she witnessed five crowns [attained by her relatives] in one day: her brother-in-law was a king, her brother was a prince, her husband was High Priest, her two sons were both Deputy High Priests, Phinehas her grandson was a Priest anointed for war.

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 43a - Thus it states: And Moses sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas* — ‘them’ refers to the Sanhedrin; ‘Phinehas’ was the [priest] Anointed for Battle;

* Num. XXXI, 6.

Elsewhere in Midrash Rabbah (below) we find reference to the same person, this time called, "the War Messiah." What is interesting here is the footnote, which links the Priest Anointed for War to the coming Messiah.



* Lit.,the priest anointed for war’, an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph’. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.

The grouping of Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah together (in the above section), is also interesting as the last three are linked to Yeshua, who was and again will be preceded by Elijah the prophet.

There are distinctions made in Talmud between the two High Priests. As might be expected, the Temple High Priest is given a higher "rank" than his counterpart. However the following section of the Talmud, shows distinctions drawn between the Deputy Temple High Priest and the High Priest Anointed for War, with the former taking precendent regarding issues of defilement, but the latter's life being considered more important (if one had to choose between the two of them) as he has a responsibility to many people:

Talmud - Mas. Nazir 47b - The question was propounded: As between [the High Priest] anointed for a war, and the deputy [High Priest], which is of superior sanctity? Does the [High Priest] anointed for war take precedence, because he is qualified to go to war, or does the deputy take precedence, because he is qualified to perform the Temple service?* — Come and hear: For it has been taught: The only difference between a [High Priest] anointed for war and a deputy is that if they were both walking by the way and encountered a meth mizwah, the [High Priest] anointed for war is to defile himself, but not the deputy. But has it not been taught: A [High Priest] anointed for war takes precedence of a deputy? — Mar Zutra replied: As far as saving his life is concerned, the [High Priest] anointed for war has a superior claim for many [people] depend upon him, but as regards defilement, the deputy is of superior sanctity, as has been taught: R. Hanina b. Antigonus said that the reason the office of deputy to the High Priest was created, was that should any disqualification happen to him [the High Priest], he can enter and minister in his stead.

* But once a priest had been anointed for war, he could no longer take part in the Temple service.












This is why we see Joshua the high priest(one of the 2 anointed witnesses) in heaven getting his dirty garments taken away because elijah(messiah ben joseph) is the war messiah anointed for war but can't serve as Temple High Priest service because of it therefore Elijah is killed by armillius and lays dead for 40/45 days and is in heaven as described in zechariah 3:

Zechariah 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
-Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Favor ain't fair

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Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 11:01 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Yes.

I wholeheartedly believe in Talking Snakes.

I have two of them named Lucifer seething through my entire being. So do you. So do all of us.


One can only speak for themselves stupid.
redhouserebel

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08/07/2014 11:33 AM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
THE HIGH PRIEST ANOINTED FOR WAR


A subject not mentioned in most Bible studies, is that of the "second High Priest," who was called the (High) Priest Anointed for War. Scripture only gives a brief non-specific mention to this person and his role:

Deuteronomy 20:1-3: When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them.

This High Priest did not serve in the Tabernacle/Temple as did the High Priest we read much more about in the Tenakh. Rather, his assignment centered around the caring and preparedness of the men going to battle -- to assure they were prepared physically and spiritually, even sending home those he deemed unfit to fight.

The first Priest anointed for war that we find mention of, was Phineas, the grandson of Aaron:

Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus XX:2 - Elisheba the daughter of Amminadab did not enjoy happiness in the world. True, she witnessed five crowns [attained by her relatives] in one day: her brother-in-law was a king, her brother was a prince, her husband was High Priest, her two sons were both Deputy High Priests, Phinehas her grandson was a Priest anointed for war.

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 43a - Thus it states: And Moses sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas* — ‘them’ refers to the Sanhedrin; ‘Phinehas’ was the [priest] Anointed for Battle;

* Num. XXXI, 6.

Elsewhere in Midrash Rabbah (below) we find reference to the same person, this time called, "the War Messiah." What is interesting here is the footnote, which links the Priest Anointed for War to the coming Messiah.



* Lit.,the priest anointed for war’, an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph’. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.

The grouping of Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah together (in the above section), is also interesting as the last three are linked to Yeshua, who was and again will be preceded by Elijah the prophet.

There are distinctions made in Talmud between the two High Priests. As might be expected, the Temple High Priest is given a higher "rank" than his counterpart. However the following section of the Talmud, shows distinctions drawn between the Deputy Temple High Priest and the High Priest Anointed for War, with the former taking precendent regarding issues of defilement, but the latter's life being considered more important (if one had to choose between the two of them) as he has a responsibility to many people:

Talmud - Mas. Nazir 47b - The question was propounded: As between [the High Priest] anointed for a war, and the deputy [High Priest], which is of superior sanctity? Does the [High Priest] anointed for war take precedence, because he is qualified to go to war, or does the deputy take precedence, because he is qualified to perform the Temple service?* — Come and hear: For it has been taught: The only difference between a [High Priest] anointed for war and a deputy is that if they were both walking by the way and encountered a meth mizwah, the [High Priest] anointed for war is to defile himself, but not the deputy. But has it not been taught: A [High Priest] anointed for war takes precedence of a deputy? — Mar Zutra replied: As far as saving his life is concerned, the [High Priest] anointed for war has a superior claim for many [people] depend upon him, but as regards defilement, the deputy is of superior sanctity, as has been taught: R. Hanina b. Antigonus said that the reason the office of deputy to the High Priest was created, was that should any disqualification happen to him [the High Priest], he can enter and minister in his stead.

* But once a priest had been anointed for war, he could no longer take part in the Temple service.












This is why we see Joshua the high priest(one of the 2 anointed witnesses) in heaven getting his dirty garments taken away because elijah(messiah ben joseph) is the war messiah anointed for war but can't serve as Temple High Priest service because of it therefore Elijah is killed by armillius and lays dead for 40/45 days and is in heaven as described in zechariah 3:

Zechariah 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
 Quoting: waterman




When you understand you will see that none is more important than any other - the messiah is not more important than the baker or the butcher or the water bearer or the transporter - the man with the donkey or the soldier - they are all equally valuable to the plot.


None of the sons of Jacob are more valuable than any other of them - but some are given positions during certain phases which give them appearance of higher authority in a particular circumstance - and certainly Dinah also is no less an equal.

The only distinction is between the righteous and the unrighteous - and some people have difficulty in defining this - which creates problems, of course.


"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.

And God set them in the firmament of the Heaven to give light upon the earth,

And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."



A ruler over the free and a ruler over the exiled or outsider - the slave, imprisoned - excluded.

The stars have authority to take light - knowledge and understanding - law - to those who did not have it.

To rule you over from the day to the night - or - from the night to the day - to take you from freedom to exile or from exile to freedom - so light would always be divided from darkness - the righteous from the unrighteous.


Maybe start here:


Thread: The Ark Of The Covenant



Because it all gets very deep and complex.


Imagine all the actors in a play - some roles may be appear more important than others - but everyone is needed for the story to be told - and everyone is reading their lines as instructed by the script - hence Isaac [EDIT: I meant to say Jacob here - but it doesn't matter with respect to the point I am making] has his script - and all his sons play their part - as prescribed by Abraham before him and Abram and Terah etc.


And so Dinah is brought forth.



All metaphor.

Last Edited by redhouserebel on 08/07/2014 11:39 AM
A MILF Mortgage - coming soon ;)
redhouserebel

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08/07/2014 12:24 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Waterman - if we are talking using these terms: birthright and sceptre - then would it be fair to further ask these questions:

Who has the birthright and the sceptre out of the children of Abraham's two wives' sons? Ishmael and Isaac. From Hagar and Sarai

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Isaac's sons Jacob and Esau?

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Jacob's sons from his two wives: Joseph and Judah - From Rachel and Leah

Would you say these stories are comparative in any way? That the division of these duties among sons is continued down Isaac's line; Ishmael becoming head of the arab nations line - Esau marrying into the Hittite line - also arab nations etc.
A MILF Mortgage - coming soon ;)
Base12

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08/07/2014 12:27 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
One can only speak for themselves stupid.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54167063

Lol... I've always wanted to use this...

:thassabutthurt:

Truth hurts doesn't it?

You can always prove me wrong anytime by editing Wikipedia...

"hence its name given from Greek mythology, meaning "light-bearer" (Latin Lucifer), referring to the "Morning Star", the planet Venus"

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

It's ironic... the one thing people are taught to hate the most ends up being their own reflection.

mirror

Talk about deflating the Ego... ouch. Good one God!

Don't worry, our Sins can be made white as Snow...

unclemikey-596

birthofvenus

Note that Ice (Snow) is the opposite of Fire (Phosp-Horus).


Visit my website...
[link to www.mostholyplace.com]
anonymous
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
The birthright blessings of Abraham went to Ephraim and Manasseh (Gen. 48) the sceptre went to Judah. It's all in the Bible. There are only a couple nations in all of history that exhibit the traits of Gen. 48.
Base12

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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Ruddy means red and so does Adam meaning red man.

Ramesses and Isi

[link to biblehub.com]
 Quoting: Gnostic Warrior

Redhead gonna Redhead... and bee-head.

2014-08-07
Visit my website...
[link to www.mostholyplace.com]
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 12:48 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
:dividedkingdom::2housesofIsrael::leftrightkingpri:


Names of divided Israel in different pairings in the bible:

Israel (northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)
Jacob (northern kingdom) Israel(southern kingdom)
Ephraim(northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)

The division of leadership will be divided just as the nation is divided, two families/kingdoms...two witnesses:

The northern kingdom will have a leader(Joseph/Ephraim)
The southern kingdom will have a leader(Judah)
These two leaders will be the two witnesses and they will be in charge of uniting these two kingdoms/families

Joseph is represented by the bullock/unicorn as is shown in deut 33 as smiting the people together bringing the lost 10 tribes together:

13 ¶ And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord is his land for the sweetness of heaven, for the dew, and for the [m]depth lying beneath,
14 And for the sweet increase of the Sun, and for the sweet increase of the Moon,
15 And for thy sweetness of the top of the ancient mountains, and for the sweetness of the old hills,
16 And for the sweetness of the earth, and abundance therefore: and the good will of him that dwelt in the [n]bush, shall come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His beauty shall be like his firstborn bullock, and his [o]horns as the horns of an unicorn: with them he shall smite the people together, even the ends of the world: these are also the ten thousands of Ephraim, and these are the thousands of Manasseh.

Joseph will recognize Judah but Judah will not recognize Joseph until Judahs purpose is accomplished:
Gen 42:8
King James Bible
And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him.

:judahephraim4::unibull:

Judah is represented by the lion:

:judahlion:

There are two families just as Jacob was married to two wives:
Leah and Rachael and as ruth tells us the house of Israel was built by these two wives Rachel giving birth to Joseph the birthright holder and Leah giving birth to Judah the sceptre holder and these two will reunite all of Israel being used as that instrument in the hand of God:

Ruth 4:11:
And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

1 chronicles 5:2

Jubilee Bible 2000
For Judah prevailed above his brethren and was their prince, but the birthright was Joseph's:)

:judahandephraim1:



The fact that Jacob’s two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph’s." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.

In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?

Each leader will be leader of one of the two families. The two leaders will be Joseph and Judah as the northern kingdom inherits the birthright blessing and the southern kingdom inherits the sceptre blessing

Two families two leaders....Judah the king and Joseph the "prime minister"(high priest) each destined to rule in the 1000 year millennium and then sit as prince of priests(Joseph) and prince of kings(Judah/David) on the left and right of Jesus in the new heaven and new earth for all eternity!
Joseph converses with Judah:

:Joseph and Judah:
 Quoting: waterman


Joseph and Judah are 2 tribes in the Nation of Israel...
the Nation has 12 tribes....Jacob was told by YHVH on this death bed what these two tribes would look like in the latter days (now) Genesis 49

Judah was seduced by Tamar, his daughter-in-law whom was married to both Judah's sons, but they both died, leaving Tarama childless....Judah in his elderly years had no wife, but regularly slept with prostitutes...Tamar (tribe of Joseph) tricked Judah her father-in-law probably in his 70's to sleep with her by her dressing up as a prostitute and seduced him.

She bore twins, Zarah and Pherez....Zarah seedline lives on today.....Pherez, the oldest twin was the seedline of Christ...since Christ had no children, that seedline died with Christ.

Zarah is the seedline of Juda and Tamar....known as the scarlet thread....and remains pure in some who have not inbred....

Yes the Scepter will always remain with Juda...but the real strength is given to Joseph whom is double blessed....and there are some walking the earth today that are both Judah and Joseph....it is these pure ones who will put the two sticks back together after Christ gathers all his children together, for that joining of the stick, then Shiloh returns!

Remember Christ told us those who say they are Jews (tribe of judah) do worship the synagogue of satan...Rev 2:9, 3:9

the tribe of Judah is very, very small, their are few left who do not worship satan.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 12:52 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
:dividedkingdom::2housesofIsrael::leftrightkingpri:


Names of divided Israel in different pairings in the bible:

Israel (northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)
Jacob (northern kingdom) Israel(southern kingdom)
Ephraim(northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)

The division of leadership will be divided just as the nation is divided, two families/kingdoms...two witnesses:

The northern kingdom will have a leader(Joseph/Ephraim)
The southern kingdom will have a leader(Judah)
These two leaders will be the two witnesses and they will be in charge of uniting these two kingdoms/families

Joseph is represented by the bullock/unicorn as is shown in deut 33 as smiting the people together bringing the lost 10 tribes together:

13 ¶ And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord is his land for the sweetness of heaven, for the dew, and for the [m]depth lying beneath,
14 And for the sweet increase of the Sun, and for the sweet increase of the Moon,
15 And for thy sweetness of the top of the ancient mountains, and for the sweetness of the old hills,
16 And for the sweetness of the earth, and abundance therefore: and the good will of him that dwelt in the [n]bush, shall come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His beauty shall be like his firstborn bullock, and his [o]horns as the horns of an unicorn: with them he shall smite the people together, even the ends of the world: these are also the ten thousands of Ephraim, and these are the thousands of Manasseh.

Joseph will recognize Judah but Judah will not recognize Joseph until Judahs purpose is accomplished:
Gen 42:8
King James Bible
And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him.

:judahephraim4::unibull:

Judah is represented by the lion:

:judahlion:

There are two families just as Jacob was married to two wives:
Leah and Rachael and as ruth tells us the house of Israel was built by these two wives Rachel giving birth to Joseph the birthright holder and Leah giving birth to Judah the sceptre holder and these two will reunite all of Israel being used as that instrument in the hand of God:

Ruth 4:11:
And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

1 chronicles 5:2

Jubilee Bible 2000
For Judah prevailed above his brethren and was their prince, but the birthright was Joseph's:)

:judahandephraim1:



The fact that Jacob’s two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph’s." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.

In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?

Each leader will be leader of one of the two families. The two leaders will be Joseph and Judah as the northern kingdom inherits the birthright blessing and the southern kingdom inherits the sceptre blessing

Two families two leaders....Judah the king and Joseph the "prime minister"(high priest) each destined to rule in the 1000 year millennium and then sit as prince of priests(Joseph) and prince of kings(Judah/David) on the left and right of Jesus in the new heaven and new earth for all eternity!
Joseph converses with Judah:

:Joseph and Judah:
 Quoting: waterman


your map is incorrect. i have an atlas of the map of King David's era....the gaza strip belongs to the nation of Israel...all the way from the Jordan east to the great sea
belongs to the nation of Israel, for in the days of King David, we were one nation.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 12:53 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
:dividedkingdom::2housesofIsrael::leftrightkingpri:


Names of divided Israel in different pairings in the bible:

Israel (northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)
Jacob (northern kingdom) Israel(southern kingdom)
Ephraim(northern kingdom) Judah (southern kingdom)

The division of leadership will be divided just as the nation is divided, two families/kingdoms...two witnesses:

The northern kingdom will have a leader(Joseph/Ephraim)
The southern kingdom will have a leader(Judah)
These two leaders will be the two witnesses and they will be in charge of uniting these two kingdoms/families

Joseph is represented by the bullock/unicorn as is shown in deut 33 as smiting the people together bringing the lost 10 tribes together:

13 ¶ And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord is his land for the sweetness of heaven, for the dew, and for the [m]depth lying beneath,
14 And for the sweet increase of the Sun, and for the sweet increase of the Moon,
15 And for thy sweetness of the top of the ancient mountains, and for the sweetness of the old hills,
16 And for the sweetness of the earth, and abundance therefore: and the good will of him that dwelt in the [n]bush, shall come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His beauty shall be like his firstborn bullock, and his [o]horns as the horns of an unicorn: with them he shall smite the people together, even the ends of the world: these are also the ten thousands of Ephraim, and these are the thousands of Manasseh.

Joseph will recognize Judah but Judah will not recognize Joseph until Judahs purpose is accomplished:
Gen 42:8
King James Bible
And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him.

:judahephraim4::unibull:

Judah is represented by the lion:

:judahlion:

There are two families just as Jacob was married to two wives:
Leah and Rachael and as ruth tells us the house of Israel was built by these two wives Rachel giving birth to Joseph the birthright holder and Leah giving birth to Judah the sceptre holder and these two will reunite all of Israel being used as that instrument in the hand of God:

Ruth 4:11:
And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

1 chronicles 5:2

Jubilee Bible 2000
For Judah prevailed above his brethren and was their prince, but the birthright was Joseph's:)

:judahandephraim1:



The fact that Jacob’s two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph’s." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.

In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?

Each leader will be leader of one of the two families. The two leaders will be Joseph and Judah as the northern kingdom inherits the birthright blessing and the southern kingdom inherits the sceptre blessing

Two families two leaders....Judah the king and Joseph the "prime minister"(high priest) each destined to rule in the 1000 year millennium and then sit as prince of priests(Joseph) and prince of kings(Judah/David) on the left and right of Jesus in the new heaven and new earth for all eternity!
Joseph converses with Judah:

:Joseph and Judah:
 Quoting: waterman


your map is incorrect. i have an atlas of the map of King David's era....the gaza strip belongs to the nation of Israel...all the way from the Jordan east to the great sea
belongs to the nation of Israel, for in the days of King David, we were one nation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60438315


correction...all the way from the Jordan WEST to the great sea (Mediterranean)
waterman  (OP)

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08/07/2014 12:59 PM

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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
The birthright blessings of Abraham went to Ephraim and Manasseh (Gen. 48) the sceptre went to Judah. It's all in the Bible. There are only a couple nations in all of history that exhibit the traits of Gen. 48.
 Quoting: anonymous 60168501



King James 2000 Bible

For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and from him came the prince; but the birthright was Joseph's:)


judahandephraim1judahephraim2JOSEPHANDJUDAH50
judahephraim4unibulljudahlion

Last Edited by waterman on 08/07/2014 01:17 PM
-Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Favor ain't fair

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[link to www.timeanddate.com]
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 01:03 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Waterman - if we are talking using these terms: birthright and sceptre - then would it be fair to further ask these questions:

Who has the birthright and the sceptre out of the children of Abraham's two wives' sons? Ishmael and Isaac. From Hagar and Sarai

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Isaac's sons Jacob and Esau?

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Jacob's sons from his two wives: Joseph and Judah - From Rachel and Leah

Would you say these stories are comparative in any way? That the division of these duties among sons is continued down Isaac's line; Ishmael becoming head of the arab nations line - Esau marrying into the Hittite line - also arab nations etc.
 Quoting: redhouserebel


Who has the birthright and the sceptre out of the children of Abraham's two wives' sons? Ishmael and Isaac. From Hagar and Sarai

Answer: Sarai was renamed by YHVY to Sarah, he called her the Mother Of All Living...and Issac his God's Chosen child, Sarah bore Issac at 90 years old. Issac carries the birthright and the sceptre...through his Seeline...to Jacob, since Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of portage....then Jacob fought all night long with the Angel of the Lord (YHVH) to get his blessing...before the sun rose, YHVH gave Jacob the blessing, and renamed him O'Israel....Jocob's 12 sons are the Nation of Israel.

You see Sarai, took God's plan into her own hands, since she was barren, she sent her handmaiden, Haggar, an egyptian, to Abraham so he would have a son, Ishmael, was Sarai's plan, not God's plan.....Ishmael was jealous of Issac because he was YHVH's chosen, because of this jealousy, Sarah banned Haggar and Ishmael from their camp; Abraham didn't want to do it; however, YHVY told Abraham in a dream to do as Sarah wanted, so they were banned.

In the desert, Haggar and Ishmeal were about to die, from thirst, and YHVH spring up water for them to drink, and HE gave them the land of sand and wells....we call them today ARABS....Ishmeal's descendents also married Esau's descendents.....this is why Russia has wells...............

this is all in the Bible, have you read it?
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 01:16 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
"Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Jacob's sons from his two wives: Joseph and Judah - From Rachel and Leah"

Joseph is firstborn of Jacob and Rachel, the woman he truly loved and had to wait 14 years to marry, because Laban, the girls father's rule was the older had to be married before the younger. Leah being the holder bore Jacob 6 children:

1. Ruben (who slept with Bilha, handmaiden of Leah, lost his birthright and Bilha was banned from the camp)

2. Simeon, Leah

3. Levi, Leah

4. Judah, Leah (Leah becomes temporary barren)

5. Dan, of Bilha

6. Naphtali, Bilha

7. Gad, Zilpha Rachael's Handmaiden

8. Asher, Zilpha

9. Issacar, Leah

10.Zebulon, Leah, 14 years is up Rachael becomes Jacob's wife

11.Joseph is Rachel and Jacob's first born, receives the firstborn birthright, Joseph's firstborn Mannasseh, receives Ruben's firstborn right...

THEREFORE THE BIRTHRIGHT REMAINS WITH JOSEPH/MANNASSEH
WHICH IS THE LAND OF THE U.S.A./CANADA --HOUSE OF ISRAEL

12. Benjamin, remains with tribe of Judah in Jerusalem, both very small tribes.

The Scepter (lawgiver) will always remain with Judah...for it was through Judah/Tamar, the twin of Zarah, PHEREZ bore Jesus Christ, the King...so the Scepter remains with Judah...

Read Genesis 49...to see what Judah looks like today, and Joseph!
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 01:19 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
Waterman - if we are talking using these terms: birthright and sceptre - then would it be fair to further ask these questions:

Who has the birthright and the sceptre out of the children of Abraham's two wives' sons? Ishmael and Isaac. From Hagar and Sarai

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Isaac's sons Jacob and Esau?

Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Jacob's sons from his two wives: Joseph and Judah - From Rachel and Leah

Would you say these stories are comparative in any way? That the division of these duties among sons is continued down Isaac's line; Ishmael becoming head of the arab nations line - Esau marrying into the Hittite line - also arab nations etc.
 Quoting: redhouserebel


Who has the birthright and the sceptre out of the children of Abraham's two wives' sons? Ishmael and Isaac. From Hagar and Sarai

Answer: Sarai was renamed by YHVY to Sarah, he called her the Mother Of All Living...and Issac his God's Chosen child, Sarah bore Issac at 90 years old. Issac carries the birthright and the sceptre...through his Seeline...to Jacob, since Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of portage....then Jacob fought all night long with the Angel of the Lord (YHVH) to get his blessing...before the sun rose, YHVH gave Jacob the blessing, and renamed him O'Israel....Jocob's 12 sons are the Nation of Israel.

You see Sarai, took God's plan into her own hands, since she was barren, she sent her handmaiden, Haggar, an egyptian, to Abraham so he would have a son, Ishmael, was Sarai's plan, not God's plan.....Ishmael was jealous of Issac because he was YHVH's chosen, because of this jealousy, Sarah banned Haggar and Ishmael from their camp; Abraham didn't want to do it; however, YHVY told Abraham in a dream to do as Sarah wanted, so they were banned.

In the desert, Haggar and Ishmeal were about to die, from thirst, and YHVH spring up water for them to drink, and HE gave them the land of sand and wells....we call them today ARABS....Ishmeal's descendents also married Esau's descendents.....this is why Russia has wells...............

this is all in the Bible, have you read it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60438315


And YOU believe just because some man wrote it, the God Almighty, Creator of ALL, is so petty that he pits one of his children against the another?

No.

Go back to God, the Beginning, he created Man in his image and gave Man dominion over the Earth.

That is the inheritance of ALL Mankind.

Keep your serpents tale.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 01:27 PM
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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
"[In Ezekiel 37:16, Ezekiel was told to take one stick, FOR JUDAH. Ezekeil was then told to take ANOTHER STICK, FOR JOSEPH. Ezekiel was told in Ezekiel 37:17 to join the two sticks together. THEY SHALL BECOME ONE IN THINE HAND. The two sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) were to first become one in the hand of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 37:19 God says that the two sticks SHALL BE ONE IN MINE HAND.] [Ezekiel says that] First the two sticks will become one in your hands and afterwards they will be one in my [God’s] hand.” [i.e. This means that: First Judah and Joseph should try to join together from below and afterwards God will help them from above]. On the same theme: “Kol HaTor” emphasizes The Two Sticks (representing Judah and Joseph) Must be Joined Together Through Our Initiative! [2.101] Ezekiel (37) speaks of the stick of Joseph [and Judah and the union of Judah with Joseph]. This concerns the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH. The Redemption is dependent on the union of the two sticks, the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah. These are the two Messiahs, the MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH and the MESSIAH SON OF DAVID. [It says: “Join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in your hand” (Ezekiel 37;17)]."

**********
it doesn't matter about which stick is first or second....what matters is the ONE putting the sticks together....of course it isn't Ezekiel....it's one
of God's Chosen, and that ONE will know he/she is suppose to do this at an appointed time...God will tell that one when do to it....Christ said, my sheep know me, and they hear my voice.....this is true, i am one of may who can testify to this truth!
waterman  (OP)

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Re: Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre
"Who has the birthright and sceptre out of Jacob's sons from his two wives: Joseph and Judah - From Rachel and Leah"

Joseph is firstborn of Jacob and Rachel, the woman he truly loved and had to wait 14 years to marry, because Laban, the girls father's rule was the older had to be married before the younger. Leah being the holder bore Jacob 6 children:

1. Ruben (who slept with Bilha, handmaiden of Leah, lost his birthright and Bilha was banned from the camp)

2. Simeon, Leah

3. Levi, Leah

4. Judah, Leah (Leah becomes temporary barren)

5. Dan, of Bilha

6. Naphtali, Bilha

7. Gad, Zilpha Rachael's Handmaiden

8. Asher, Zilpha

9. Issacar, Leah

10.Zebulon, Leah, 14 years is up Rachael becomes Jacob's wife

11.Joseph is Rachel and Jacob's first born, receives the firstborn birthright, Joseph's firstborn Mannasseh, receives Ruben's firstborn right...

THEREFORE THE BIRTHRIGHT REMAINS WITH JOSEPH/MANNASSEH
WHICH IS THE LAND OF THE U.S.A./CANADA --HOUSE OF ISRAEL

12. Benjamin, remains with tribe of Judah in Jerusalem, both very small tribes.

The Scepter (lawgiver) will always remain with Judah...for it was through Judah/Tamar, the twin of Zarah, PHEREZ bore Jesus Christ, the King...so the Scepter remains with Judah...

Read Genesis 49...to see what Judah looks like today, and Joseph!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60438315


Gen 49:10:

King James Bible
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Jesus has the sceptre and will give it to the witness(David) that will rule in the 1000 year millennium. This David is the shiloh that is coming and to him shall be the gathering of the people after messiah ben "Joseph" pushes the lost 10 tribes together as is stated in deut 33:

13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,

14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,

15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,

16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.

17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

judahephraim4unibull
-Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Favor ain't fair

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GLP