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Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.

 
Evil Cretin Heretic

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08/06/2014 08:53 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


It would do everything it could to deal with it. But some things are just to strong for us. AIDS, Smallpox, etc. You have to understand that these things are not just invaders, they are trying to spread, trying to survive. They are doing everything they can to continue the spread of their "species". We are the means for many viruses to do just that. It's not that your immune system can't fight it, it could, it would try, it's the fact that viruses depend on your body trying to fight it. Your immune response, coughing, sneezing, puking, sweating etc. that is how they spread. They make your body fight them, so they can invade another host.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


It does, but is that not the essence of the battle? The body fights by trying to expel the invader through sneezing, puking, sweating, peeing, and diahrea. It has worked perfectly for me so far. Ebola is different from influenza, on the same level as AIDS? My body can't beat this one?
Free speech is never free.

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TruthNow88

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08/06/2014 08:55 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
...


You understand that Ebola is one of the largest (if not the largest) and therefor slowest to evolve viruses. For it to change so radically in such a short period of time is literally unheard of... They can compare Ebola samples from a few years ago to samples found in fossil's from millions of years ago... and guess what, the virus hardly changed at all. Yet we are to believe that in just the past ~1 year this virus has all of a sudden changed drastically (3% which might not sound like much but it is), making it have 3x the standard incubation period as well as being MUCH more easily transmittable then all other known strains of Ebola.

I guess my point is yes, something changed, but to assume it is natural is where you made your mistake. This thing is bioengineered... that is what changed, and it is far from natural.
 Quoting: TruthNow88

Could you give link to where they found it in fossils.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8189275


Rates of genetic change are one one-hundredth as fast as influenza A in humans, but on the same magnitude as those of hepatitis B. Extrapolating backwards using these rates indicates Ebolavirus and Marburgvirus diverged several thousand years ago.[15] However, paleoviruses (genomic fossils) of filoviruses (Filoviridae) found in mammals indicate that the family itself is at least tens of millions of years old.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Unexpected viral 'fossils' found in vertebrate genomes
[link to www.sciencedaily.com]


Molecular evolutionary analyses for Ebola and Marburg viruses were conducted with the aim of elucidating evolutionary features of these viruses. In particular, the rate of nonsynonymous substitutions for the glycoprotein gene of Ebola virus was estimated to be, on the average, 3.6 x 10(-5) per site per year. Marburg virus was also suggested to be evolving at a similar rate. Those rates were a hundred times slower than those of retroviruses and human influenza A virus, but were of the same order of magnitude as that of the hepatitis B virus. When these rates were applied to the degree of sequence divergence, the divergence time between Ebola and Marburg viruses was estimated to be more than several thousand years ago. Moreover, most of the nucleotide substitutions were transitions and synonymous for Marburg virus. This suggests that purifying selection has operated on Marburg virus during evolution.
[link to mbe.oxfordjournals.org]


What Ebola virus did in the past year would be = to if AIDS became airborne with 100x the mortality rate, with added drug-resistance, shit it would probably even glow for fuck sakes... My point is this "evolution" in Ebola was NOT NATURAL.
 Quoting: TruthNow88


Thanks for links and agree after reading
Not Natural
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8189275


Human Ebola Virus Species and Compositions and Methods Thereof
The Government of the US as Represented by the Secretary of the Dept. of health
[link to www.google.com]

Lassa virus-like particles and methods of production thereof
The Administrators of the Tulane Educational Fund
[link to www.google.com]

It really is quite the hybrid they have created.
"Fuck the American regime change policy... Pardon me... I mean fuck our gift of democracy!"
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[link to soundcloud.com (secure)]
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 08:59 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
One reason it could spread in the US faster than previous diseases, is the emergency rooms are now used for non emergency needs. It is only in the last 30-40 years that ER's have been used for the treatment of colds or flu. In the past people went to the Doctors the next day or simply were diagnosed over the phone.

The current ER use for minor ailments might be nothing more for a breeding ground for a disease like Ebola.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/06/2014 09:01 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


It would do everything it could to deal with it. But some things are just to strong for us. AIDS, Smallpox, etc. You have to understand that these things are not just invaders, they are trying to spread, trying to survive. They are doing everything they can to continue the spread of their "species". We are the means for many viruses to do just that. It's not that your immune system can't fight it, it could, it would try, it's the fact that viruses depend on your body trying to fight it. Your immune response, coughing, sneezing, puking, sweating etc. that is how they spread. They make your body fight them, so they can invade another host.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


It does, but is that not the essence of the battle? The body fights by trying to expel the invader through sneezing, puking, sweating, peeing, and diahrea. It has worked perfectly for me so far. Ebola is different from influenza, on the same level as AIDS? My body can't beat this one?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


The flu is different. It attacks different things.

Ebola is hemorrhagic. It makes you bleed out. It attacks everything that isn't bone. Breaks down connective tissue, and attacks your circulatory system, resulting in hemorrhaging under the skin. You body attempts to respond by clotting, but due to the extensive damage it literally creates a back flow. Circulation slows, and what everyone though was a rash at first turns into large hemtomas under the skin. Yes you will cough, yes you will puke, you'll have stomach issues. But none of that matters, because the virus has turned your own blood flow against you. This is why the best treatment is additional units of blood and hydration.

Hemorrhagic fever really is not anything to screw around with.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:05 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


It would do everything it could to deal with it. But some things are just to strong for us. AIDS, Smallpox, etc. You have to understand that these things are not just invaders, they are trying to spread, trying to survive. They are doing everything they can to continue the spread of their "species". We are the means for many viruses to do just that. It's not that your immune system can't fight it, it could, it would try, it's the fact that viruses depend on your body trying to fight it. Your immune response, coughing, sneezing, puking, sweating etc. that is how they spread. They make your body fight them, so they can invade another host.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


It does, but is that not the essence of the battle? The body fights by trying to expel the invader through sneezing, puking, sweating, peeing, and diahrea. It has worked perfectly for me so far. Ebola is different from influenza, on the same level as AIDS? My body can't beat this one?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


The flu is different. It attacks different things.

Ebola is hemorrhagic. It makes you bleed out. It attacks everything that isn't bone. Breaks down connective tissue, and attacks your circulatory system, resulting in hemorrhaging under the skin. You body attempts to respond by clotting, but due to the extensive damage it literally creates a back flow. Circulation slows, and what everyone though was a rash at first turns into large hemtomas under the skin. Yes you will cough, yes you will puke, you'll have stomach issues. But none of that matters, because the virus has turned your own blood flow against you. This is why the best treatment is additional units of blood and hydration.

Hemorrhagic fever really is not anything to screw around with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


so, OP, is ebola easier to catch than the flu??? 2 years ago my spouse had H1N1. no one else in the house got sick.
Evil Cretin Heretic

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08/06/2014 09:05 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


It would do everything it could to deal with it. But some things are just to strong for us. AIDS, Smallpox, etc. You have to understand that these things are not just invaders, they are trying to spread, trying to survive. They are doing everything they can to continue the spread of their "species". We are the means for many viruses to do just that. It's not that your immune system can't fight it, it could, it would try, it's the fact that viruses depend on your body trying to fight it. Your immune response, coughing, sneezing, puking, sweating etc. that is how they spread. They make your body fight them, so they can invade another host.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


It does, but is that not the essence of the battle? The body fights by trying to expel the invader through sneezing, puking, sweating, peeing, and diahrea. It has worked perfectly for me so far. Ebola is different from influenza, on the same level as AIDS? My body can't beat this one?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


The flu is different. It attacks different things.

Ebola is hemorrhagic. It makes you bleed out. It attacks everything that isn't bone. Breaks down connective tissue, and attacks your circulatory system, resulting in hemorrhaging under the skin. You body attempts to respond by clotting, but due to the extensive damage it literally creates a back flow. Circulation slows, and what everyone though was a rash at first turns into large hemtomas under the skin. Yes you will cough, yes you will puke, you'll have stomach issues. But none of that matters, because the virus has turned your own blood flow against you. This is why the best treatment is additional units of blood and hydration.

Hemorrhagic fever really is not anything to screw around with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


Thank you. I'll do more research. My sincerest appreciation.
Free speech is never free.

Well I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free
So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key - Eagles
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:06 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
oh, and let me add "excellent thread!" to the chorus.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:12 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
maybe op needs to get a clue about the first strain of ebola to been found on this planet was admited later on to be man made research on Bovine Spongiform encelophatis...Mad cow disease.

The WHO and the CDC are statistic gathering services and we are just test subjects.

Ebola zaire strain which was first to go out of control after the infamous Philadelphia hotel incident with what was called the "legionaire disease"..which turned out to be of the SAME PROTEIN CHAIN!!!

Also Hiv and sars are based of the same protein chain as of Ebola...

This Oil based sickness is coming and they planned it since 2001!
 Quoting: Blitz the storm-striker


That sounds bezerk.
 Quoting: Tinfoil Couture


this and the FACT that vaccines have been poisoning peeps w contaminants in the squalene and heavy metals, NOT helping them… once you find people who have sifted through all the bogus science this will be clear to you… there are undoubtedly some good threads on GLP with much of the data you need to be sure vaccines were never needed and do not work and worse, poison peeps of their own FREE WILL… this was designed by certain families in the 20th century and is all documented...

also, your population growth analysis is also total bunk…

if you want to be worried about something, you might consider that we are cursing ourselves with all of the perversity in our culture and this will lead to bad things happening to us…

better to sound the alarm for rampant porn, violent films, video games, music, whoring generally, etc…

this is the true source of anything bad that will happen…by our own FREE WILL CHOICES…
Southern Lighthouse

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08/06/2014 09:17 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Excellent... well thought out and well written. Frightening, but thank you nonetheless, OP. Wish I could give you some green, but here's 5 stars.

hf
Love is the highest form of spiritual warfare.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:21 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
ebola will do nothing.
 Quoting: T-Man


^^^^^this^^^^^
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44550379


So, the people that have already died just imagined ebola killed them?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8547422


Of course not. It's real just like the 36,000 that died in the USA last year of the flu. Am I going to panic and freak out like all the doomsters on these threads? Absolutely not.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44550379


Thanks to the panic that was pushed back in 2008 over swine flu, my mom in law got scared and ran out for the h1n1 vaccine and it nearly killed her. She fought for her life in icu as her liver and kidneys tried to shut down on her. We almost lost her.

All I heard about was how thousands of people were dropping from swine flu.... where are the families of these people now? I don't know one fucking person who had swine flu or died from it, and neither does any of my friends or family.

I believe that ebola is over in Africa, but I don't believe this horse shit about it being over here in the U.S. All one needs to do is watch CNN for a few minutes and you can see the panic they are drumming up. It's ridiculous. It's all for an agenda, just like swine flu. How much money did big pharma make off h1n1? How many people got scared to death and got the shot?
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:25 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


Could your immune system 'deal with' extreme radiation poisoning ? NO
And ebola is the viral equivalent of dying of radiation poisoing,
even the symptoms and toxicity of the body are VERY similar.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:30 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Well said and thought out.
 Quoting: 18328


The OP is right in his assessment sadly. We are seeing the biginning of a pandemic of the likes never seen in this generation.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 09:31 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Wow, you obviously know what you're talking about. Question for you. I'm 57 and healthy. I have never had a flu shot. I don't do anything to avoid germs... I touch everything with my bare hands including public toilet seats and doors. Perhaps twice in my life I have had the flu. I stayed in bed, drank tons of water. Wouldn't I have the same outcome if ebola entered my body? Wouldn't my own immune system deal with it?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


I've only caught a virus 3 times in my life. 1983 - garden variety/stomach flu 2000 - doctor said it was just a virus
2011 - norovirus from hell.

Talk about mutating viruses, noro felt like I was knocking on deaths door. It attacked the muscles in my body. Only my husband and I got it. It hit very fast. First, mild flu like feelings, 100 degree fever with chills. BAM nausea, constant vomiting and diarrhea at the same time. Within an hour of the vomiting starting, the muscles went in full spasm in our legs. We could not walk, had to crawl, the pain was so horrific. We had to call 911. When they got there, they had to come TO US and took me out of the hallway, and my husband was on the floor in the bedroom. My husband is a big strong man too, but this knocked him the hell out. Never seen him sick in my life until then.

got to the hosp and they isolated us and ran blood work, had iv fluids going and zofran.

they said we had norovirus and released us home.

worst part of this is, we were 30 min from home and no car, could barely walk. had to take a cab, and I bet the poor cab driver got it.

it took us about 3 weeks to recover fully. both of us weak as kittens
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2014 10:03 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Guys listen, this shit is scary. I get it, ok? I do. The human population of this world has always been kept in check by viruses, or some other method of sheer destruction. The Flu, Polio, Smallpox, you name it, these things have a purpose in nature. They keep populations under control.

Since the dawn of the industrial age we began to outsmart them all. We Vaccinate against the flu, we all but eradicated Polio in this country. We had beaten our enemies into near submission, and as a result, the worlds population has exploded. But our Genius is beginning to catch up with us. Anti-biotic resistant bacteria is on the rise, the flu is devising new ways to counter attack our defenses. And Ebola, well, lets just say it's doing what all viruses do. It's trying to survive, it's trying to find a way to use our own immune system against us. Think about this for a minute...

The Flu infects you, your body goes into defensive mode, realizing that it must expel the invader. So your own body fills your lungs with mucus and fluid, which forces you to cough. This is the real genius of the flu. It actually depends on your immune response to spread itself. And it doesn't have much time to do it either. Because your body begins to increase it's own temperature. Yes, having a fever is an immune response, not caused by the flu, rather it is literally your body attempting to make you so hot that the protein coat protecting the flu virus breaks down, allowing your white cells to attack.

This is what all viruses do. ALL of them. They find a way to exploit your natural immune responses to propagate themselves.

Ebola.... once just a hemorrhagic fever on steroids, now is a bona-fide menace. I work in a hospital laboratory at a major hospital in a major Metro Area. My wife works clinical micro for the same company. I'm very well versed in just about everything a STAT lab in a hospital can, and does do. My wife on the other hand, actually majored in micro, with emphasis on virology. So I wanted you all to know a few things about this outbreak that became apparent to us as it began to spread.

#1. Something has changed. This virus used to have a much shorter incubation period. And it would kill within a week. The mortality rate was much higher once upon a time. However, this is not the case anymore. Based on the sheer number of infected, the virus it seems, may have found a way to transmit itself easier. Typically when a virus "evolves" it gains in one area, while giving ground in another. It makes sense to me that Ebola gave up alot of it's lethality, for the ability to spread itself easier, and incubate much, much longer.

#2. Africa is a mess. There is no way to tell how many are infected. Once upon a time Ebola would strike a village and wipe everyone out, and that was it. It would kill so fast that it could not spread out of the hotzone. Because of what I said above that is not the case anymore. On a continent where borders still mean very little to the native population, it is a scary mix. Even if the CDC or the WHO wanted to get accurate numbers, it would be hopeless due to the unknown number or people that distrust western medicine, refuse to get help, or wander around from village to village. The infrastructure simply does not have the same capabilities we do in the west.

#3. Even in the United States, out of all the various hospitals I have worked at, there is no hope of containing anything like this. One of the largest hospitals I worked at only had two reverse flow isolation rooms. TWO, let that sink in for a minute. If this thing goes as bad as some think it will, we are, quite literally, screwed. Patients only show up to the hospital when they go symptomatic. So by the time they get there, they've already infected their entire family, their work group, and anyone they got within a few feet of on the way to the hospital. When they get there the ER nurses would treat it either like Flu, or Sepsis. But the whole time the patient is infecting all of them. And all of them, in turn, begin to infect everyone else in the exact same way. If this is as virulent as the WHO thinks it might be, by the time people realize what is going on, there will be more sick people than there would be beds available at every hospital in the US combined.

#4. Testing blood for anything is not as simple as looking under a microscope. And hospital labs are not set up for exotic virology. We run basic Chemistries, Cardiac enzymes, blood counts, sed rates, drug levels, bacterial cultures, all the basic hands on shit. The kind of things that old people usually present for, blood loss, infection, and cardiac events. Anything exotic gets sent out. Sometimes to the State lab, most of the time specimens get sent across the country to Quest Diagnostics, or to other organizations actually set up for it. Your average city hospital is pitifully, laughably, not ready for anything of this nature. Sure, running a CBC can tell if you are dehydrated, it can tell of you are loosing blood, it can tell if you are fighting "something" off. It just can't tell what. A sed rate can determine if you have excess inflammation, but it can't tell you why. A Lactic Acid level can indicate Sepsis, but it can't tell you from what. The point is, at the early stages of an outbreak, people will get treated for run of the mill things. Because nothing a hospital can test immediately will be able to tell anyone that you are carrying the most deadly hemorrhagic fever currently known. Honestly, if a person came into a busy ER with a fever, the triage nurse would put them in the waiting room until a non urgent room opened up in the back. They simply have no way to know who is carrying what.

I'm not saying we're all gonna die. This thing could fizzle out. And everything could be fine. What I am trying to illustrate here is that just because a lab exists in a hospital, does not mean that it can tell you everything. There are triage algorithms that work for everyday field medicine, but nothing for an outbreak. Thinking that living in a developed nation will curb the spread is ridiculous. If anything, it makes it worse. Our commute, our workplaces, our homes, our methods of entertainment, all of those things that we love so much about living in the the west, are the things that viruses depend on to spread.

If this virus truly has found a way to transmit easier, the healthcare system would be completely overloaded with something they simply can not handle.

Anyway, I'm not trying to scare anyone, I just hope people can be realistic about the capabilities of hospital containment, hospital laboratory testing, and the fact that the healthcare system, in ANY country, could not handle a massive outbreak.

So don't expect miracles from front line hospital staff, we don't have the tools, and we certainly do not have the manpower. Ask anyone in the medical field how much overtime they could work if they felt like it, don't even get me started on how thinly stretched people in the industry are. Though I suppose if this does turn into something, that will become apparent very, very fast.

Good luck, don't freak out, wash your hands, be prepared, hug your kids.

That is all.
 Quoting: Aravoth 35282601


More idiotic fear-mongering. NOT ONE PERSON READING THIS IS AT RISK FROM EBOLA VIRUS!

Thread: ALERT! EBOLA PSYOP IN FULL SWING! Weapons of Mass Distraction Engaged....
 Quoting: Hugh M Eye


Everyone reading this subject to a psychopathic antiCaucasian who believes that Americans don't deserve their own borders or their own national security if it excludes others from other lands is AT RISK FROM EBOLA
FritoBandito

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08/06/2014 10:29 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
My fear is that in our efforts to help our patients, if an outbreak occurred here, our efforts, which are all based loosely on triage, would not only fall short, but actually cause it spread.
 Quoting: Aravoth 35282601


How?

vodka5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61056835


^^^This^^^. You have my attention OP. Wife is an RN working towards NP next year. She seems convinced it will fizzle. You make some valid points and I'll relay them to her stat.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 12:53 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
What is the possibility that the Chikungunya virus which presents similar symptoms could confuse the medical system to the point of paralysis. Cases are increasing in the U.S. as the Ebola spreads in Africa. In fact many viruses have similar symptoms so confusion seems inevitable. The headache, fever and joint pain are common symptoms and sorting through who has what seems like a near impossible task.

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60532823


OP, help me out here. Although this virus starts out with symptoms that are common, this is still a virus associated with hemorrhagic fever. There are only five viruses that cause hemorrhagic fever. Ebola is the one that is out there as a threat right now.

Viruses associated with hemorrhagic fever all have similar symptoms different than other viruses. They cause various bleeding disorders - thus the name hemorrhagic. The culprit is disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIH). DIH is a process in which small blood clots form in blood vessels throughout the body, removing platelets necessary for clotting from the bloodstream and reducing clotting ability. [link to en.wikipedia.org] Thus hemorrhage is the main issue. The blood test for diagnosis of hemorrhage is a simple white cell count, platelet count and blood clotting tests which shows an increase in prothrombin (PT) and activated partial thromboplastic times (PTT). These tests are common - a CBC and Hepatic Function tests (liver function) that are run by most any hospital lab.

My question is at what point in the cycle of an Ebola virus does the white cells and platelets begin to decrease and PT and PTT levels (blood clotting times) begin to increase sufficiently to be suspicious? Other hemorrhagic viruses show these blood level increases and decreases within days.

I worked for a pharmaceutical research company up until 8 years ago. I was part of a team that revived an old study on the viruses that included hemorrhagic fever. It was apparent that platelet counts decreased and PT and PTT tests increased in fairly early stages of a hemorrhagic virus and was used for early detection in patients in infected hot zones. As well, Petechia (red spots on the skin that is caused by minor hemorrhage) was an early sign along with broken capillaries in the eyes and other similar minor hemorrhage symptoms. Among multiple studies done in various countries that were hosts to these viruses (Lassa, Dengue etc.), with well over a thousand subjects, the early stage symptoms were similar, even though there were some distinct characteristics of each virus. The end result of this was that a specific antiviral did work in approximately 85% to 90% if given in early stages. Once moderate to heavy hemorrhage began, the results were far less. Unfortunately, the affects of the antiviral were almost as hazardous as the virus for some people. We're not talking about a simple antiviral for viruses like this.

My second question to you is....why all the hype about the need for exotic blood tests done in biocontainment labs? If there is a definitive Ebola outbreak anywhere in the world, wouldn't there be a protocol set in place to use tests more easily obtained in a quick manner when early stage symptoms occur? I know a specific protocol was used in the past in hot zones because of the excessive length of time for specific testing....If there is an outbreak of Ebola in the US and a person has physical symptoms and suspicious lab work, I'd want to bet it is Ebola without the exotic test.

Again, there are definitive protocols for handling patients with possible symptoms in hot zones, including those seeking help in an emergency room. To state that patients with fevers, vomiting and diarrhea would be left to sit in an ER waiting room to infect others is absurd. Triage is generally set up outside in tents to keep infected patients separated from other patients. This certainly is far from ideal and isn't any guarantee but it is better than jamming infected people in an ER with patients with other issues. I think it is a possibility that this is coming soon, very soon.
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08/07/2014 01:00 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
bumpbump
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 01:02 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
...


It would do everything it could to deal with it. But some things are just to strong for us. AIDS, Smallpox, etc. You have to understand that these things are not just invaders, they are trying to spread, trying to survive. They are doing everything they can to continue the spread of their "species". We are the means for many viruses to do just that. It's not that your immune system can't fight it, it could, it would try, it's the fact that viruses depend on your body trying to fight it. Your immune response, coughing, sneezing, puking, sweating etc. that is how they spread. They make your body fight them, so they can invade another host.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


It does, but is that not the essence of the battle? The body fights by trying to expel the invader through sneezing, puking, sweating, peeing, and diahrea. It has worked perfectly for me so far. Ebola is different from influenza, on the same level as AIDS? My body can't beat this one?
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


The flu is different. It attacks different things.

Ebola is hemorrhagic. It makes you bleed out. It attacks everything that isn't bone. Breaks down connective tissue, and attacks your circulatory system, resulting in hemorrhaging under the skin. You body attempts to respond by clotting, but due to the extensive damage it literally creates a back flow. Circulation slows, and what everyone though was a rash at first turns into large hemtomas under the skin. Yes you will cough, yes you will puke, you'll have stomach issues. But none of that matters, because the virus has turned your own blood flow against you. This is why the best treatment is additional units of blood and hydration.

Hemorrhagic fever really is not anything to screw around with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601


Thank you. I'll do more research. My sincerest appreciation.
 Quoting: Evil Cretin Heretic


Hemorrhagic fevers usually cause death due to the organ failure such as the liver due to excessive hemorrhaging as well as bone marrow failure.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 02:28 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
"
Again, there are definitive protocols for handling patients with possible symptoms in hot zones, including those seeking help in an emergency room. To state that patients with fevers, vomiting and diarrhea would be left to sit in an ER waiting room to infect others is absurd. Triage is generally set up outside in tents to keep infected patients separated from other patients. This certainly is far from ideal and isn't any guarantee but it is better than jamming infected people in an ER with patients with other issues. "


I think I can answer for the OP; and I applaud his perseverance on this thread, and agree with EVERYTHING he wrote.

Forty years experience in hospitals here; this is how it will go down if this thing gets any more out of control than it is right now:

Imagine a large city hospital, about 1000 employees, split up between 12 hour and 8 hour shifts; fully 1/2 or more of them are non-medical staffers, clerical, supply, and security staff, etc. So the other half is what is taking care of patients, hands on. Oh, and small armies of volunteers, outpatients and 'visitors' going in and out, to make things fun and spread the cheer/viruses more handily.

Maybe 10% of actual RNs, PAs and MDs are down in the ER; so, the first day, let's say only 5 people show up with symptoms undecipherable from a normal flu; there's 10 people all told in the ER to take care of them, plus your usual heart attacks, car accidents, gunshot victims, 'sore throats for a few weeks', little kids needing inhalers, and hypochondriacs.

The next day, there's 20 people with the same symptoms, plus the usuals.

The next day after that, there's 60 or 100, plus extra hypochondriacs because word is getting out and CNN is scaring everyone.

Your ER beds are long used up, so are your other rooms, your two or three respirators are quite busy thank you and there are no more left, staffers are starting to stay home out of fear and the hospital is running out of standard supplies like gloves, IV saline, and clean laundry, not to mention cafeteria food, etc.

And oh by the way, the morgue is full, stacked like cordwood.

End of discussion, end of 'modern medicine', end of the world as you used to know it.

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

And you nutzoids with your BS flags can take a leap. You're idiots and the reason TPTB call us all 'useless eaters.'
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 03:49 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Maybe a better way to ask is could two viruses exchange information?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601



Let this useful website help you with this concept

[link to www.nieman.harvard.edu]

It may help to think of viruses not as single, fixed species but as a dynamic population of numerous variants that undergo selective pressure. When different populations can coexist in multiple susceptible mammalian hosts (humans, pigs, cats), there is an increased likelihood of mixing of genetic material in recombination events. Scientists are only beginning to understand the molecular mechanisms underlying the selection process, including the change in the efficiency of human-to-human transmission, which is a major factor in turning an epidemic strain into a pandemic one.1
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 06:53 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
My fear is that in our efforts to help our patients, if an outbreak occurred here, our efforts, which are all based loosely on triage, would not only fall short, but actually cause it spread.
 Quoting: Aravoth 35282601


How?

vodka5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61056835


Because initially we wouldn't isolate anyone. Like I said in the op. Someone with a headache and fever is not an emergency. Most of time a person showing symptoms would be hanging out in the waiting room with everyone else until a room opened up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601

It wasn't until now, but obviously things are different in this situation.

Such cases like fever and headache will have to be considered priority cases now and isolated until ascertained to not be Ebola cases. Simple, isn't it ?
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 06:59 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Maybe 10% of actual RNs, PAs and MDs are down in the ER; so, the first day, let's say only 5 people show up with symptoms undecipherable from a normal flu; there's 10 people all told in the ER to take care of them, plus your usual heart attacks, car accidents, gunshot victims, 'sore throats for a few weeks', little kids needing inhalers, and hypochondriacs.

The next day, there's 20 people with the same symptoms, plus the usuals.

The next day after that, there's 60 or 100, plus extra hypochondriacs because word is getting out and CNN is scaring everyone.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61037425

Well, obiously it can't go on like that. In every existing Emergency Department there should be a special team assigned for handling those possible Ebola cases with high priority, and nothing else. And the qualified medical staff would have to shift their priorities as well - needless to say....
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 11:01 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
Yeah, it can't go on like that... that's the whole point.

How many hours do you expect the 'special team' to work before they are too tired, make mistakes, get infected, and either go home or drop dead themselves?

Do you think they will be replaced after their shift ends by automatons? Because no one else will be forthcoming, not with several dozen or several hundred patients crashing and bleeding out all over the floor, not to mention vomiting up black clotted blood until there's nothing left of them except black jelly and bones.

Read up about what's really involved with Ebola. Once someone presents with symptoms, it's horrific and few people are brave enough to hang around near it.

OP's point was just this; no hospital is ready for this any more than they are ready for any pandemic. If you're lucky, there will be people willing to go from house to house to pick up the dead, but don't count on that either.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 11:40 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
bump for the most informative and important thread on GLP.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/07/2014 11:56 AM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
My fear is that in our efforts to help our patients, if an outbreak occurred here, our efforts, which are all based loosely on triage, would not only fall short, but actually cause it spread.
 Quoting: Aravoth 35282601


How?

vodka5
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61056835


Because initially we wouldn't isolate anyone. Like I said in the op. Someone with a headache and fever is not an emergency. Most of time a person showing symptoms would be hanging out in the waiting room with everyone else until a room opened up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35282601

It wasn't until now, but obviously things are different in this situation.

Such cases like fever and headache will have to be considered priority cases now and isolated until ascertained to not be Ebola cases. Simple, isn't it ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41221377


No, because the person that can not breath is still more important than another persons fever.

I hate to encourage this, but if anyone needs proof of what I'm saying go into the ER, you and one friend. One of you pretend you are having chest pain, and the other pretend you have a headache, fever, and a sore throat. go in at the same time, watch who gets in first.
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2014 12:03 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
This whole thing has been planned by TPTB


A mandatory "vaccine" is on the horizon
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/07/2014 12:28 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
What is the possibility that the Chikungunya virus which presents similar symptoms could confuse the medical system to the point of paralysis. Cases are increasing in the U.S. as the Ebola spreads in Africa. In fact many viruses have similar symptoms so confusion seems inevitable. The headache, fever and joint pain are common symptoms and sorting through who has what seems like a near impossible task.

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60532823


OP, help me out here. Although this virus starts out with symptoms that are common, this is still a virus associated with hemorrhagic fever. There are only five viruses that cause hemorrhagic fever. Ebola is the one that is out there as a threat right now.

Viruses associated with hemorrhagic fever all have similar symptoms different than other viruses. They cause various bleeding disorders - thus the name hemorrhagic. The culprit is disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIH). DIH is a process in which small blood clots form in blood vessels throughout the body, removing platelets necessary for clotting from the bloodstream and reducing clotting ability. [link to en.wikipedia.org] Thus hemorrhage is the main issue. The blood test for diagnosis of hemorrhage is a simple white cell count, platelet count and blood clotting tests which shows an increase in prothrombin (PT) and activated partial thromboplastic times (PTT). These tests are common - a CBC and Hepatic Function tests (liver function) that are run by most any hospital lab.

My question is at what point in the cycle of an Ebola virus does the white cells and platelets begin to decrease and PT and PTT levels (blood clotting times) begin to increase sufficiently to be suspicious? Other hemorrhagic viruses show these blood level increases and decreases within days.

I worked for a pharmaceutical research company up until 8 years ago. I was part of a team that revived an old study on the viruses that included hemorrhagic fever. It was apparent that platelet counts decreased and PT and PTT tests increased in fairly early stages of a hemorrhagic virus and was used for early detection in patients in infected hot zones. As well, Petechia (red spots on the skin that is caused by minor hemorrhage) was an early sign along with broken capillaries in the eyes and other similar minor hemorrhage symptoms. Among multiple studies done in various countries that were hosts to these viruses (Lassa, Dengue etc.), with well over a thousand subjects, the early stage symptoms were similar, even though there were some distinct characteristics of each virus. The end result of this was that a specific antiviral did work in approximately 85% to 90% if given in early stages. Once moderate to heavy hemorrhage began, the results were far less. Unfortunately, the affects of the antiviral were almost as hazardous as the virus for some people. We're not talking about a simple antiviral for viruses like this.

My second question to you is....why all the hype about the need for exotic blood tests done in biocontainment labs? If there is a definitive Ebola outbreak anywhere in the world, wouldn't there be a protocol set in place to use tests more easily obtained in a quick manner when early stage symptoms occur? I know a specific protocol was used in the past in hot zones because of the excessive length of time for specific testing....If there is an outbreak of Ebola in the US and a person has physical symptoms and suspicious lab work, I'd want to bet it is Ebola without the exotic test.

Again, there are definitive protocols for handling patients with possible symptoms in hot zones, including those seeking help in an emergency room. To state that patients with fevers, vomiting and diarrhea would be left to sit in an ER waiting room to infect others is absurd. Triage is generally set up outside in tents to keep infected patients separated from other patients. This certainly is far from ideal and isn't any guarantee but it is better than jamming infected people in an ER with patients with other issues. I think it is a possibility that this is coming soon, very soon.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 59909649


All the hype about referred tests is because in the beginning, there wouldn't be any protocol. Before anyone knows there is an outbreak it will be business as usual.

Regardless, yes, running some Coags, and checking a patients plt count, would tell you alot. But why the hell would you need to check coags on a 22 year old with a fever, who never even left the country, let alone spent time in west Africa? Explain that to his insurance provider.

The Scenario I outlined in the OP and through the thread is what will happen if an outbreak happens, but hasn't gone widespread yet. Meaning people are infected, but no one realizes how many or who yet.

I'm sorry you think that people with fevers, vomiting, and diarrhea is absurd. I think it is also. and I feel very bad every day at work when I see exactly that. If you do not believe me, pick an ER in you city, and just go sit in the waiting area, read a book. watch the process. It's just standard protocol.

What you are talking about is containment in a hotzone, something that a few thousand people between CDC, WHO, and USAMRID, know all about. General practice MD's, ER Nurses, shit, even in the ICU, none of them know anything about that.

There are almost six thousand hospitals in this country, close to 1 million beds combined, something like 300-400,000 nurses, untold numbers of ancillary staff. Thats all. Those kind of numbers desperately trying to find space for and keep up with a viral infection that they wouldn't even know has hit yet, and 99% of them don't know shit about viral quarantine procedures.

You're right that eventually protocols would be changed, and proper isolation procedures would kick in, but by the time it does, things would be spinning out of control.
mysticalamber

User ID: 46708429
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08/07/2014 12:58 PM

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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
this is a serious question ......... if u decide to stay
home away from people.... can u keep ur windows open for fresh air or run the ac unit ???? thanks for the info
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 35282601
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08/07/2014 01:24 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
this is a serious question ......... if u decide to stay
home away from people.... can u keep ur windows open for fresh air or run the ac unit ???? thanks for the info
 Quoting: mysticalamber


Honestly anything regarding transmission other than direct contact with body fluid at this point may just b speculation. My personal belief is that it has found a way to transmit easier. I base that on the sheer size of the current outbreak. That does not mean it has gone airborne. Maybe it can survive in an aerosol, or maybe it has adapted to survive on surfaces longer. No one really knows for sure.

All we can do is look at the facts. And the facts are that it is spreading, and it is already straining resources of entire nations. Nothing spreads like that if it only method of transmission is sex, kissing, or various other forms of body fluid exchange. At least not that fast anyway.
Aravoth  (OP)

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08/07/2014 02:38 PM
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Re: Ebola - A perspective you might need to hear.
I'd just like to say that I'm amazed with all the attention this thread received. I hope it helped someone out there. Hopefully knowledge of how the hospital system works, and what the average capabilities of your average hospital are, this will better prepare you for any kind of emergency. Not just for a viral epidemic, but for other things as well.





GLP