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Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.

 
Kay
User ID: 72054
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07/21/2006 03:28 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
I think you are getting two different terms mixed up:

Colonists
Christians.

They are NOT the same thing.


[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Æon



Your article from wikipedia doesn't change my stance. The colonists were have-nots looking to have - not a Christian outlook on life.

In regards to your link, here is a quote that is apt:

In the book, A Christian Manifesto, Schaeffer writes, "There is no New Testament basis for a linking of church and state until Christ, the King returns."

Dominionism is a heresy. There have been many heresies in the Christian church, this is just another one of them. It is NOT the Christian Right, which is a voice for morality in today's world.

Mark my words, the Christian Right is about to completely dissolve, and much of it already has. They have reached their goal, which is of course, the eradication of abortion on demand. Already, there are women in the Democratic party who are conceding this battle. The Supreme Court has what it needs to defeat this blight.

Just like the social ills of previous generations: slavery, womens' rights, civil rights, Christians have lead the way in the right to life. History will prove again, that it was the right thing to do.

Now that we have what we want, you will see, there is no stomach to go after gays, it will NOT happen via the Church. We want to strengthen marriage, but will NOT oppress gays. There, another prediction.

What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/21/2006 03:31 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. You and a few others might do those things (and more power to you if you do), but I think the majority of fundie Christians will remain primarily interested in themselves and their churches. That is what the evidence suggests.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 03:40 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
See? Religious types think everyone has a Satanic agenda if they don't praise their preachiness. What a buncha self-righteous twattery.


why do you feel it necessary to pigeon hole someone as religious so that you can then make them an easy target . . . incapable of meeting them where they truly stand perhaps . . .???
 Quoting: Paradise 112939



I'm quite certain there is nothing I could say that would make you change your religious views, no matter how much logic gets thrown at you. Your faith makes you selectively deaf and illogical. Nor do I care to change your religious views. I'm all for you believing whatever you want. Can you say the same? I rather doubt it.
Paradise
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07/21/2006 03:50 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
See? Religious types think everyone has a Satanic agenda if they don't praise their preachiness. What a buncha self-righteous twattery.


why do you feel it necessary to pigeon hole someone as religious so that you can then make them an easy target . . . incapable of meeting them where they truly stand perhaps . . .???



I'm quite certain there is nothing I could say that would make you change your religious views, no matter how much logic gets thrown at you. Your faith makes you selectively deaf and illogical. Nor do I care to change your religious views. I'm all for you believing whatever you want. Can you say the same? I rather doubt it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 120100


there you go again, its a habit, what makes you categorize me as having religious view . . . i see my views as being based on reason . . . not logic as you see it.
Kay
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07/21/2006 03:50 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Paul said "servants, obey your masters." The word for "servants" is *douloi*, which is roughly equivalent to our "slave," meaning someone serving *involuntarily.* Christ also spoke of involuntary servitude without disapproval. At the very least, the New Testament does not condemn slavery.
 Quoting: Philosophaster



=============

No, they did not advocate becoming run away slaves. That would not help them at all, just cause them to be beaten or killed.

However, the New Testament really doesn't have rules. All it really has is 'doctrine'. So we have to 'glean' what we do in a particular situation.

So, agleaning we go!

The function of the 'Christ' as foretold in the Old Testament - in the Book of Isaiah - is that He 'comes to set the captives free'. There is also the same imagery in the OT story of the Hebrews being set free from captivity.

The entire theme of both Old and New Testaments is the idea of 'set free from captivity'.

So, how could a Christian actually hold someone captive as a slave? That is the real question. And many Christians, like George Washington, did just that.

But, that leaves many who claimed to be Christians that obviously did NOT. I'm not sure how they justified it - it would be VERY difficult. Maybe it didn't come up because traditionally, Jesus Christ saves 'sinners' and those 'lost', who are usually not those in society prosperous enough to own slaves. Those who did, like the slaver who wrote, "How great thou art" turned from it and did better.
i is that which i is

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07/21/2006 03:51 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Naturyl, Jesus Christ referred to the Old Testament often. I guess you know more than Him????????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 101716


Hmmmmm! It appears that you haven't read very much of it or have only read the portions that you like.

Yes, Jesus referred to it and quoted from it but what Naturyl said is also true pertaining to some things. While there are beautiful stories, poetry, and songs there is also murder and genocide.

Specifically, the God that Jesus worshipped when He said to"Love God and thy neighbor" is not the same god of War that Joshua claims told him to commit genocide, murder, robbery and theft when the Israelis entered the land of Cannan and killed every man woman and child and stole their land, cattle, sheep, and gold.

The only book that claims that the Jews are Cod's chosen people was written by Jews. While it is true that all men are not born equal, there should not be any special advantage given to one group or another because they were born into a specific group or nationality. It is each individual's responsibility is to learn love and teach it.

After exiting Egypt according to Exodus, the Israelis stayed in the Saini Desert for 40 years. If this god of War was all powerful, he or it could have cleared the land of Cannan of all inhabitants without requiring the Israelis to commit murder.

Or it could have made the unihabited desert to change and blossom.

So I recommend that you read your Bible and then when you understand that there are many beings who were called gods who have interfered with the lives of mankind in the past, then branch out and read the Earth Cronicles by Zacharia Sitchin.

Peace, grouphug
"I am not afraid to stand alone, but it's always more fun if I have friends standing with me." Lena Coleon.
Kay
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07/21/2006 03:52 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.


I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. You and a few others might do those things (and more power to you if you do), but I think the majority of fundie Christians will remain primarily interested in themselves and their churches. That is what the evidence suggests.
 Quoting: Naturyl


You'll be wrong, and you are not showing any evidence, just using intellectual dishonesty again!

Shame on you! You can do better!
Kay
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07/21/2006 03:56 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
So I recommend that you read your Bible and then when you understand that there are many beings who were called gods who have interfered with the lives of mankind in the past, then branch out and read the Earth Cronicles by Zacharia Sitchin.


=======

Actually, it is these alien like creatures that many believe were the real Canaanites that God wanted to remove from the land. Nephilim. Giants. "And there were Giants in the land". Aliens? Annunaki? Greys?

Murder, maybe, alien invasion repelled, maybe a la Annunaki.

Of course, it is just a theory.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/21/2006 03:56 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.


I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. You and a few others might do those things (and more power to you if you do), but I think the majority of fundie Christians will remain primarily interested in themselves and their churches. That is what the evidence suggests.


You'll be wrong, and you are not showing any evidence, just using intellectual dishonesty again!

Shame on you! You can do better!
 Quoting: Kay 72054


I won't be wrong, I'm not being intellectually dishonest, and what's more, I'm pretty sure you don't know what "intellectual dishonesty" actually means.

The evidence is all around. Fundies have given us an overwhelming mountain of evidence by which we may reasonably judge their values and priorities. And for the majority of them, helping the poor is not high on the list.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Paradise
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07/21/2006 04:00 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.


I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. You and a few others might do those things (and more power to you if you do), but I think the majority of fundie Christians will remain primarily interested in themselves and their churches. That is what the evidence suggests.


You'll be wrong, and you are not showing any evidence, just using intellectual dishonesty again!

Shame on you! You can do better!


I won't be wrong, I'm not being intellectually dishonest, and what's more, I'm pretty sure you don't know what "intellectual dishonesty" actually means.

The evidence is all around. Fundies have given us an overwhelming mountain of evidence by which we may reasonably judge their values and priorities. And for the majority of them, helping the poor is not high on the list.
 Quoting: Naturyl


religious fundamentalism isn't the only kind of fundamentalism, looks like you have our own brand of fundamentalism Naturyl and friends from future philosophy
potkettle


alohaParadise sun
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:01 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.


I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. You and a few others might do those things (and more power to you if you do), but I think the majority of fundie Christians will remain primarily interested in themselves and their churches. That is what the evidence suggests.


You'll be wrong, and you are not showing any evidence, just using intellectual dishonesty again!

Shame on you! You can do better!


I won't be wrong, I'm not being intellectually dishonest, and what's more, I'm pretty sure you don't know what "intellectual dishonesty" actually means.

The evidence is all around. Fundies have given us an overwhelming mountain of evidence by which we may reasonably judge their values and priorities. And for the majority of them, helping the poor is not high on the list.
 Quoting: Naturyl



It is intellectually dishonest to push opinion as evidence. It is your opinion, nothing more.

It is also intellectually dishonest to pretend you don't know history when you do.
Æon

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07/21/2006 04:01 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


I am actually opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest -- since it cannot be right to punish a child for the crimes of its father.

As for right-wing Christians -- I strongly suggest that you watch this video:

[link to www.theocracywatch.org]
Ave Gæ , morituri te salutamus!
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:02 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
.. as in Christianity started slavery

or

... Christianity started racism.


--

Absurd! And you know it!
Philosophaster

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07/21/2006 04:03 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Who has said that Christianity started either of those things?
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:11 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
What will us nosey, prosey, annoying Christians do with ourselves then? You'll see an increase in missionary work, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.

I am actually opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest -- since it cannot be right to punish a child for the crimes of its father.

As for right-wing Christians -- I strongly suggest that you watch this video:

[link to www.theocracywatch.org]
 Quoting: Æon



Well that is very nice to hear. I'm usually thought to be a nut to be so. Especially because I am a professional woman, who owns her own business and has had many issues with sexism.

But, I wouldn't worry about 'dominionism'. It is considered heresy by ALL of today's Christians and there are very few people who really believe it. I would think we have alot more to worry about that this. No true Christian would get involved in politics, anyway. It is just too corrupt, and we are constantly reading the imperative to "keep from being polluted by the world".

There are very, very few rules, in Christianity, theoretically there are none. But keeping oneself from being yoked to the world is surely a basic concept. Politics is probably about as far into the world as you can get. Christians might vote, or write letters, even protest, but not much more than that. So don't worry about it. What you need to worry about is the globalists that want to squeeze the middle class into the poor - with themselves as the rich. And they are atheists, secularists, Skull and Bones, but NOT Christians.
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:12 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Who has said that Christianity started either of those things?
 Quoting: Philosophaster



Naturyl said it.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/21/2006 04:14 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Who has said that Christianity started either of those things?



Naturyl said it.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Don't lie.

Quote me saying it. Include a link to the actual post, so it can be verified.

If you can't, have some integrity and apologize for lying.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:16 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Christianity has not started these things but was a major player in both

Southern baptists fought to keep slavery as the bible states that one can have slaves. If it's in the bible fundamentally it cannot be wrong.

"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you.
You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.
You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness."
– Leviticus 25.44

No racism in Christianity.....Fundamentalists are disagreeing with you

The Legion of Saints group says it:

is a theo-political, Christian Identity Church organization, governed by the will of the Creator, our Father YHVH, outlined in His Holy word, the Bible.
We stand on the principles of Racial segregation and White Racial supremacy. We believe that the White Race, are the direct descendants of the Adamic man made in the image of YHVH, in the of garden of Eden; and was placed here to be the light bearer and supreme ruling Race of this lost and dying world.
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:17 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
without the Bible we'd still be living in barbarianism




blink


Yeah. And with it, we are living in even more barbarism.

Without the Bible (and the 1000 year Dark Age it helped cause), we might all be living in the Star Trek world.

Yeah, I'm actually serious.



I spent a good deal of time showing you the roots of the different movements in the last 200-300 years.

They were based upon concepts of the New Testament.

What, you didn't like hearing about that? Or you choose to ignore it, so that you can keep your fantasy that the Bible is 'barbaric'?

I am talking, of course, of the elimination of slavery, voting for women, civil right movement of the '60s, to name a few.

These were all rooting in devout people of the Church.


It was pointed out to you that all of these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place.

In addition, any progress that can be credited to Christianity came from the liberal elements. Liberal Christians fixed the problems the fundies created. If the fundies had their way, we'd have most of the problems back.
 Quoting: Naturyl






Here.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:17 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
These are your words:

It was pointed out to you that all of these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place.

In addition, any progress that can be credited to Christianity came from the liberal elements. Liberal Christians fixed the problems the fundies created. If the fundies had their way, we'd have most of the problems back.

Quoting: Naturyl
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:18 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
I'm not from Naturyl's forum. I just happen to agree with what I saw him post here tonight.

Also, I do believe in God. I just don't buy into organized religion.
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:23 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Christianity has not started these things but was a major player in both

Southern baptists fought to keep slavery as the bible states that one can have slaves. If it's in the bible fundamentally it cannot be wrong.

"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you.
You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.
You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness."
– Leviticus 25.44

No racism in Christianity.....Fundamentalists are disagreeing with you

The Legion of Saints group says it:

is a theo-political, Christian Identity Church organization, governed by the will of the Creator, our Father YHVH, outlined in His Holy word, the Bible.
We stand on the principles of Racial segregation and White Racial supremacy. We believe that the White Race, are the direct descendants of the Adamic man made in the image of YHVH, in the of garden of Eden; and was placed here to be the light bearer and supreme ruling Race of this lost and dying world.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 414




Regarding the first quote in Leviticus. Surely you don't think that Christians keep the Hebrew Law? I mean really, it was wiped out when Jesus died on the cross. It is totally irrelevant to a Christian.

Besides, that was a CIVIL law that was decreed for a particular, specific CIVIL SOCIETY, ie the nation of Israel. It is also completely irrelevant to someone who doesn't live in that civilization.

In regards to the second, it sounds like the Klu Klux Klan or neonazis or something. I am only really discussing the position of 'fundamentalist' Christians, not any heresey (id dominionism) or Judaism or Nazism.

Give me a Break! I wouldn't try to defend them anyways!

And you can say that 'liberal' Churches were the vanguard of these liberation movements, but that is wrong. They were 'fundamentalists' in the proper definition of the term.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/21/2006 04:29 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
These are your words:

It was pointed out to you that all of these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place.

In addition, any progress that can be credited to Christianity came from the liberal elements. Liberal Christians fixed the problems the fundies created. If the fundies had their way, we'd have most of the problems back.

Quoting: Naturyl
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72054


What I meant was that acceptance of slavery was promoted by Christianity for many centuries, not that Christianity "invented" slavery.

Jeez.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:30 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
without the Bible we'd still be living in barbarianism




blink


Yeah. And with it, we are living in even more barbarism.

Without the Bible (and the 1000 year Dark Age it helped cause), we might all be living in the Star Trek world.

Yeah, I'm actually serious.



I spent a good deal of time showing you the roots of the different movements in the last 200-300 years.

They were based upon concepts of the New Testament.

What, you didn't like hearing about that? Or you choose to ignore it, so that you can keep your fantasy that the Bible is 'barbaric'?

I am talking, of course, of the elimination of slavery, voting for women, civil right movement of the '60s, to name a few.

These were all rooting in devout people of the Church.


It was pointed out to you that all of these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place.

In addition, any progress that can be credited to Christianity came from the liberal elements. Liberal Christians fixed the problems the fundies created. If the fundies had their way, we'd have most of the problems back.






Here.
 Quoting: Kay 72054




And so I don't understand how

"these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place."

When did Christianity start polygamy, then ban it? Or slavery, or women's right to vote, or civil rights? Make all these social ills then ban them?
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:33 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
These are your words:

It was pointed out to you that all of these problems you claimed Christianity fixed were caused by Christianity in the first place.

In addition, any progress that can be credited to Christianity came from the liberal elements. Liberal Christians fixed the problems the fundies created. If the fundies had their way, we'd have most of the problems back.

Quoting: Naturyl


What I meant was that acceptance of slavery was promoted by Christianity for many centuries, not that Christianity "invented" slavery.

Jeez.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Be honest. You were intimating that Christianity was to BLAME for these things, which is NONSENSE.

Christianity BANNED polygamy, and was the first institution to do so.
Kay
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07/21/2006 04:36 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Who has said that Christianity started either of those things?



Naturyl said it.


Don't lie.

Quote me saying it. Include a link to the actual post, so it can be verified.

If you can't, have some integrity and apologize for lying.
 Quoting: Naturyl



So, you are really the one who lied.

Where is MY apology?

And don't quibble about 'started' and 'caused'. They are as close to a synonym as you'll ever find.

Polygamy or slavery caused by Christianity - ha!
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/21/2006 04:44 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
I guess you ignored my response. I'll post it again, although there's no reason to believe you won't ignore it again.

"What I meant was that acceptance of slavery was promoted by Christianity for many centuries, not that Christianity "invented" slavery."

You guys can call me a liar all you like, but that's what I meant. You want to continue implying that I'm lying about it and yet you have the nerve to ask for an apology from me?

Sorry, ain't happening. I told you guys what I meant, and that's what I meant. Don't like it? Tough.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 04:46 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Christianity has not started these things but was a major player in both

Southern baptists fought to keep slavery as the bible states that one can have slaves. If it's in the bible fundamentally it cannot be wrong.

"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you.
You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.
You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness."
– Leviticus 25.44

No racism in Christianity.....Fundamentalists are disagreeing with you

The Legion of Saints group says it:

is a theo-political, Christian Identity Church organization, governed by the will of the Creator, our Father YHVH, outlined in His Holy word, the Bible.
We stand on the principles of Racial segregation and White Racial supremacy. We believe that the White Race, are the direct descendants of the Adamic man made in the image of YHVH, in the of garden of Eden; and was placed here to be the light bearer and supreme ruling Race of this lost and dying world.




Regarding the first quote in Leviticus. Surely you don't think that Christians keep the Hebrew Law? I mean really, it was wiped out when Jesus died on the cross. It is totally irrelevant to a Christian.

Besides, that was a CIVIL law that was decreed for a particular, specific CIVIL SOCIETY, ie the nation of Israel. It is also completely irrelevant to someone who doesn't live in that civilization.

In regards to the second, it sounds like the Klu Klux Klan or neonazis or something. I am only really discussing the position of 'fundamentalist' Christians, not any heresey (id dominionism) or Judaism or Nazism.

Give me a Break! I wouldn't try to defend them anyways!

And you can say that 'liberal' Churches were the vanguard of these liberation movements, but that is wrong. They were 'fundamentalists' in the proper definition of the term.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


I suggest you go to the fundamentalist denominational forum on christian forums.com. They also call for the death penalty for homosexuals. Preparing to Jihad themselves and murder abortion doctors. The unification of politics and the church....frowned upon by Jesus....Oh God protects america and everyone is evil so we must kill them....God told me to do this!!! Subservance of women, children are nothin but slaves until you can kick them out, the husband is be all and end all of the family and dictates his wishes with no question. Levitcus is as valid today as it was then, but we will choose what we wish. Verbals attacks on muslims, attacks on other non christian religions.

These are very much the opinions of mainstream fundamentalist christians like fred phelps and his cronies.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 05:11 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
Hey Kay? Don't try to obfuscate Nat's valid points by crying liar because of some poor choice of wording. Come on now. You're obfuscating. While Christianity didn't cause slavery or subjgation of women, it certainly took up the cause and promoted it for a long time, and lots of people got hurt. Who is going to be hurt by Nat's views?
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 06:43 AM
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Re: Religious Fundamentalism Must Be Destroyed.
I agree!





GLP