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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Naturyl
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07/19/2006 08:29 PM
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Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:31 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Anyone else have strong deja vu a few hours ago?
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:33 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
We don't have free will

But we do have freedom of choice

We can choose God or not

We can can choose life or death
gooderboy

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07/19/2006 08:37 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl


... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh?
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 08:37 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
We don't have free will

But we do have freedom of choice
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 625


This reminds me of that Alex Jones movie where he interviews a woman who says "I think we should give up our liberty for freedom."
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 08:40 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 08:42 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh?
 Quoting: gooderboy


The concept itself is meaningless, because it signifies nothing but a misunderstanding. The implications of (deluded) belief in free will, however, are far from meaningless.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 08:43 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time.
 Quoting: the Questeon ?


Ah, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons.

Done yet?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Azoth777

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07/19/2006 08:43 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Would a human lifespan be a combination of caused and randonm events? Is there a predispostision to gravitate towards random or caused behaviour?
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 08:51 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In my view, most human actions are caused, while a very few may be random. In order for an action to be truly random, tiny uncaused quantum fluctuations in the brain would have to propagate and "snowball" in such a way as to trigger a full scale physiological or mental event, which is rather difficult from a neurological perspective. Such quantum fluctuations are so insignificant as to be inconsequential at the macroscopic level in almost all cases.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:53 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The person who gave this thread one star doesnt understand it. The person who gave this thread one star can answer where his actions come from and will say "I choose it" then when asked where his thoughts come from to choose it he will go: "DUH DUH DUH I DONNO DUH DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 08:53 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time.


Ah, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons.

Done yet?
 Quoting: Naturyl


That is beyond my present knowledge yet such powers still exists as a possibility for man.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:53 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?

You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?

You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:53 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
yes
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 08:54 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I admit we aren't the "doers" but maybe we are the choosers.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:54 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
since you claim you have no free will

how are you able to resist God and lie about Him?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


excuse me. can you tell me how you choose to type the words above? oh you thought of it? where did those thoughts come from, and how did you choose those thoughts?

whats that you say, you dont know? o i guess than means you have no choose you fuckin dumb idiot.
Azoth777

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07/19/2006 08:54 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Honestly I did not understand, if you could dumb it down for me, it might help clarify things.
Sol Invictus

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07/19/2006 08:56 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion.

Premise 1: All german shepherds are dogs

Premise 2: All dogs are mammals

Conclusion: All mammals are dogs.

hmm

But your logic is better than that, of course.

Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option, even if I personally think it's not all that common :P

Cause & Effect rules most of the world, granted.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
the Questeon ?

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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?

You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?

You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


you got a point. I didn't create myself or my thoughts, not that I can recall or as I know myself now anyway.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
gooderboy

User ID: 81174
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07/19/2006 08:58 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh?


The concept itself is meaningless, because it signifies nothing but a misunderstanding. The implications of (deluded) belief in free will, however, are far from meaningless.
 Quoting: Naturyl


... how can any concept be meaningless? How is that even possible, and who has them kinda 'de-meaning' powers upon any conceptualized framework anyways?

... many the miss-understanding of anything carries the joy of understanding anxiously awaiting its time as well.... and hmmmm... maybe that ol' 'trial and error' stuff comes to mind?

... soooo then, where do these so called implications arise from?
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:58 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion.

Premise 1: All german shepherds are dogs

Premise 2: All dogs are mammals

Conclusion: All mammals are dogs.

hmm

But your logic is better than that, of course.

Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option :P
 Quoting: Sol Invictus



Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread?

thanks.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:59 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
We don't have free will

But we do have freedom of choice


This reminds me of that Alex Jones movie where he interviews a woman who says "I think we should give up our liberty for freedom."
 Quoting: Naturyl


You do know that Alex Jones is a fundamentalist Christian? Why are you watching his movies?
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 08:59 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Typical "Chaos precedes Order" logic.

Listen, what caused you to make this topic? You might say that your recent reflection caused you to come to a realization about free-will, thus you made this topic to explain that to us. I ask, what made you reflect and realize?

You see, even if you answer this question, I'll simply ask more questions ad infinitum.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:01 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
IDIOTS


UNDERSTAND THIS:

when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will.

dont you understand. god damn.
gooderboy

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07/19/2006 09:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time.


Ah, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons.

Done yet?
 Quoting: Naturyl


... cain't go against the 'prime directive', and don't ya know? Oh, and btw, lol, said like a true materialist kinda guy too.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
IDIOTS


UNDERSTAND THIS:

when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will.

dont you understand. god damn.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


What caused those "combination of internal neuron activities"? And what caused the causation of those "internal neuron activities"?

:clogic:
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
FREE WILL


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet..
 Quoting: Rush 119559

nospam

YOU JERK, YOU DAMN SPAMING JERK

I DONT WANT YOUR FUCKIN LYRICS IN THIS THREAD< SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OH YOU SPAMING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 09:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
popcorn
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Azoth777

User ID: 113992
United States
07/19/2006 09:03 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In my view, most human actions are caused, while a very few may be random. In order for an action to be truly random, tiny uncaused quantum fluctuations in the brain would have to propagate and "snowball" in such a way as to trigger a full scale physiological or mental event, which is rather difficult from a neurological perspective. Such quantum fluctuations are so insignificant as to be inconsequential at the macroscopic level in almost all cases.
 Quoting: Naturyl


What sources can I reference to learn about uncased quantum fluctuations in the brain? I would like to learn more.
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/19/2006 09:03 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl


My actions are "caused" by my free intellectual choice. If I do not choose to act the event does not happen and vice versa. I choose whether or not the event occurs. You cannot prove otherwise.
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 09:04 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time.


Ah, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons.

Done yet?


... cain't go against the 'prime directive', and don't ya know? Oh, and btw, lol, said like a true materialist kinda guy too.
 Quoting: gooderboy

lolsign
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power





GLP