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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Zaphod Beeblbrox
User ID: 83027
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07/22/2006 03:37 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
There can be no such thing as free will except for in everyday terms such as i 'chose' to drink OJ vs 'my wife made me drink oj'.

free will cant exist. when you type a response to this, it will come from thoughts that are controlled by every experience you ever had + DNA + Random positioning of neurons. it cant exist. whatever you reply to this, youll think its a choice, but its not..

now:

stfu

and stop arguing weather 2 + 2 = 4 or weather the sky is blue or not. Shut Up. got it? youre retarded and dont understand. you have a fucking cognitive disorder. youre stupid. shut up.
 Quoting: Tone 120512


I can do this
bsflag or this flip or this yakor this bsmeter

All free choices made by a free will. Now you can go fuck yourself dipshit.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/22/2006 03:40 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. One could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism.

BTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions."

Ya know something buddy? I've been listening to you spout off for a couple days now about how smart you are. You've shown me nothing but what an asshole you really are. Now that your in the position of having to admit your precious theory is wrong you instead turn to personal attack.
All you are is another intellectual wannabe dumbass whose parents probably had enough money to dump your annoying ass into college to get some peice of mind.
You can't apply your stupid fucking theory to something that has never been defined in the first place you fucking moron.
I haven't made any definitive ASSERTIONS other than the fact that you and the other guy are full of shit.
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027


Uh-oh, somebody's mad...

If you can't refute it, talk tough. That always works. Just ask Bush.

laugh

BTW, I am a high-school dropout. My parents were poor and so am I. In your mind, I'm sure that makes the ass-whooping I've given you guys even more embrassing - not that you'd admit it, lol.

laugh
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/22/2006 03:42 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Hehehe... this is quite amusing. You guys who like to play intellectual and rather pathetically attempt to use big words are in a world of shit now, because Dan Rowden is a friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life pursuing truth and reality like most of you pursue money and self-satisfaction.

It may not be clear just yet, but GLP has been invaded by a a bunch of authentic, no-bullshit philosophers - namely Dan, Philosophaster, and myself, and quite a few people are going to have to face the music, like it or not.

We are here to bring the most hated and reviled of all things - the plain and honest truth. Read us at your own peril, because we enjoy yanking away all delusional security blankets. :)


Hello James.

Up to your same ol'shit again I see.

Later Mr. Quirk
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 112095


Ah, somebody learned how to use Google. Congratulations.

You are being reported to GLP staff. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
the world according to Bush
User ID: 120558
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07/22/2006 03:45 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
someone walks into a room a shouts..."I know...i Know".....and then screams a stream of 20 dollar words that even he does not understand.......he then waits......hoping to hear only an echo of what he just said...for him an echo is proof he is "right"........a shot of rum and its off to bed...... "How very little we really know"
drowden

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07/22/2006 04:28 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In other words you don't know either.
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027


My post contained an answer to the question. Either you don't understand it or it doesn't suit your purposes. Funny how when people get answer they don't like they dismiss you as not knowing, even when they admit that they themselves don't.

Oh well. I'd ask what part of what I wrote you don't like but I'm not sure I actually care...


Dan Rowden
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/22/2006 05:16 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In other words you don't know either.

My post contained an answer to the question. Either you don't understand it or it doesn't suit your purposes. Funny how when people get answer they don't like they dismiss you as not knowing, even when they admit that they themselves don't.

Oh well. I'd ask what part of what I wrote you don't like but I'm not sure I actually care...


Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden

Hardly a falsifiable definition though is it? It suits no purpose at all as it is only oppinion.
Zaphod Beeblbrox
User ID: 83027
United States
07/22/2006 05:22 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion




If you can't refute it, talk tough. That always works. Just ask Bush.




 Quoting: Naturyl

Nice feeble attempt at reversal. This is exactly what you are attempting to do to me. I understand now you are simply too dim to understand what I'm trying to tell you.
One more time in small words so you can understand:
Your theory cannot be applied to something that has not been defined, that indeed some say may exist outside the strictures of the universe altogether.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/22/2006 05:43 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Nah. Nature is nature. Argue with that.

And your sense of superiority and entitlement is now on public display. It's funny how there can be better mechanics than you, better rocket scientists, better doctors, and better writers, but when anybody claims to know more about life than you do, you have to reflexively object (and assert your own presumed superiority in the process).

That is American-style anti-intellectualism in a nutshell. There can be all kinds of specialists, but nobody is allowed to know more than anybody else about anything that "really counts." This attitude got us "beer buddy" George Bush as President.

Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
gooderboy

User ID: 70394
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07/22/2006 07:00 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Hehehe... this is quite amusing. You guys who like to play intellectual and rather pathetically attempt to use big words are in a world of shit now, because Dan Rowden is a friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life pursuing truth and reality like most of you pursue money and self-satisfaction.

It may not be clear just yet, but GLP has been invaded by a a bunch of authentic, no-bullshit philosophers - namely Dan, Philosophaster, and myself, and quite a few people are going to have to face the music, like it or not.

We are here to bring the most hated and reviled of all things - the plain and honest truth. Read us at your own peril, because we enjoy yanking away all delusional security blankets. :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


... yes it really is amusing, lol... and now I also understand why you guys have been pusuing truth for such a long time too.... and I see that it's obviously still evading you as well. Pursue on dudes....
gooderboy

User ID: 70394
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07/22/2006 07:04 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What causes thought then? Please enlighten me.

Oh, that's easy. In the most complete sense the cause of any given thought is "not that thought". The cause of "thought" is "not thought". Any answer less than that is just contingent empirical modelling. Which is not say that such modelling might not provide us with very practical outcomes. Science's very importance lies in its practical outcomes and the utility of its models rather than in its explicatory power because science doesn't actually explains anything (not in any complete sense anyway).

See, and you thought it would be difficult!

Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden


... oh oh, and ya even play at the hedging game too, I love it. Soooo then, what causes 'thought' and/or that supposed 'not thought' o'yours? What is the cause?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 117166
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07/22/2006 07:06 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Is this a "male pissing" contest?



A "whose is longer?" competition?



A "my dog/philosopher is smarter than your dog/philosopher" show?





Everyone wants to be regarded as the most sublimely gifted. Is everyone that insecure?




Wanna whip out IQ's and sheepskins?




I know you're all wont to do so.




Anyone here got an IQ above genius?????




NO???




Then I guess we're all sorta equal.




Amazing the ill humour going around when people share the best of what they know to be true and receive insults in return.







It's OK that no one grasped my answer.








How's that for condescending??????






So who wants to play nice????





Anyone?
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 07:09 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. That is why one could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism, so please feel free to provide just that. I'd expect nothing less.

BTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions."
 Quoting: Naturyl



...awwww, poor baby (again, lol)... and ya still haven't ever even noticed that when ya point them de-meaning kinda fingers o'yours at others... there's 3 more of your fingers a'pointin' right back at ya.... tsk and tsk, lol.... and again too, get over yourself little boy.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/22/2006 07:10 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Anyone here got an IQ above genius?????

NO???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


Yes. And so do Dan and Philosphaster.

Ask a question, get an answer. That's the way it goes.

If you want to "play nice," how about starting by not trying to knock us down just because we are speaking philosophically?

I know, too much to ask...
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/22/2006 07:12 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. That is why one could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism, so please feel free to provide just that. I'd expect nothing less.

BTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions."



...awwww, poor baby (again, lol)... and ya still haven't ever even noticed that when ya point them de-meaning kinda fingers o'yours at others... there's 3 more of your fingers a'pointin' right back at ya.... tsk and tsk, lol.... and again too, get over yourself little boy.
 Quoting: gooderboy


Is "aww, poor baby" your stock answer to everything? Have you ever tried making an actual argument?

Just curious.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Sol Invictus

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07/22/2006 08:59 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care.
 Quoting: Naturyl


And intellectualism is a foundational pillar of communism :)

The problems with anti-intellectualism are obvious, but do you agree there are problems with intellectualism as well? Intellectual arrogance, being one of them... I have no problem with arrogance per se, but I'd prefer it to be well-founded in reality, not wishful thinking...

For example, the concept of zero. Apparently, it's quite hard to grasp - unless learned - and the human mind is apparently almost incapable of understanding it until it has developed for 2-3 years, and even then, it has to be taught. It took centuries for mathematics to develop that concept and practically apply it, after all.

There's also a reason that 5 year-olds don't learn quantum physics... their minds just aren't *capable* of making the necessary connections, unless they're some one-in-a-million child prodigy, perhaps... but if they're not, then the best teacher in the world would not even attempt to teach such things to children.

I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand. Talking and discussing difficult concepts is all well and good, but arguing that "my concept is the 100% truth" is ... well, for lack of a better word, probably delusional at this point.

There was a writer once who said that *no one* could create a fictional character smarter than himself. If you have no idea how to make the ultimate bank robbery, you can't possible make even a fictional character pull that off either... Thinking about it logically, that sounds very true. This also means that your philosophy, despite sounding quite convincing, is *limited* by your own inherent intellectual capacity.

Intellectuals often forget that maybe humans aren't the smartest creatures in the Universe. "Nature" is probably smarter than you... agreed? Hence IT is not limited by your "logic"... Maybe there's just some things that our brains can't grasp at this point... like free will and how it works in a cause & effect environment... but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like the concept of zero still exists even if a 2-year old human can't grasp it.

I'd have no problems with any of your statements, Natyrul or your philosopher friends, if you'd just end them with a little

My opinion, etc.

:P
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 09:07 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
It is an Illusion to believe that one does not have a choice.

One can either choose TO React to an Action and therefore claim : You made me do it.

Or they can choose to stop the chain reaction of the Action/Reaction.

The choice To react is the Will of the Ego
The choice Not to react is the Will of Consciousness.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 09:16 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Intelligence does not make one wise.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 09:20 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Wisdom comes from knowing the difference between free will and free choice and deciding whether or not either one both or neither of them exist in ones own reality.
drowden

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07/22/2006 09:39 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Soooo then, what causes 'thought' and/or that supposed 'not thought' o'yours? What is the cause?
 Quoting: gooderboy


Reality. What else could it be? If you take the duality of a thought and that which is not that thought you are left with *all that is*. Only a really silly person would consequently ask what the cause of Reality is. Are you that silly?


Dan Rowden
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 10:08 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care. [Naturyl quote]

And intellectualism is a foundational pillar of communism :)
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


There is no real difference between what we have called communism and fascism. We've yet to see communism.

The problems with anti-intellectualism are obvious, but do you agree there are problems with intellectualism as well?
 Quoting:


Yes, when it is merely scholarship and has no real concern for what is true.

Intellectual arrogance, being one of them... I have no problem with arrogance per se, but I'd prefer it to be well-founded in reality, not wishful thinking...
 Quoting:


Arrogance, by definition, is not grounded in reality since it involves an exaggeration of what is real. Therefore you *should* have a problem with it, per se.

For example, the concept of zero. Apparently, it's quite hard to grasp - unless learned - and the human mind is apparently almost incapable of understanding it until it has developed for 2-3 years, and even then, it has to be taught. It took centuries for mathematics to develop that concept and practically apply it, after all.
 Quoting:


This is because zero is a mathematical artiface. It has no real world referent so why wouldn't it be hard to grasp?

There's also a reason that 5 year-olds don't learn quantum physics... their minds just aren't *capable* of making the necessary connections, unless they're some one-in-a-million child prodigy, perhaps... but if they're not, then the best teacher in the world would not even attempt to teach such things to children.
 Quoting:


Oh, I don't know, quantum physics is almost entirely inhabited by philosophical children, so I'm not sure your point holds..

I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand.
 Quoting:


Ok, so has anyone actually expressed that view?

Talking and discussing difficult concepts is all well and good, but arguing that "my concept is the 100% truth" is ... well, for lack of a better word, probably delusional at this point.
 Quoting:


That is the most arrogant statement anyone can make. You don't even see why it is, do you?

There was a writer once who said that *no one* could create a fictional character smarter than himself.[/quote[]

Well, duh, that guy must have been a genius.

If you have no idea how to make the ultimate bank robbery, you can't possible make even a fictional character pull that off either... Thinking about it logically, that sounds very true.
 Quoting:


Yes, it's the logic of an 8 year old. True, but not very impressive.

This also means that your philosophy, despite sounding quite convincing, is *limited* by your own inherent intellectual capacity.
 Quoting:


Objection yer Honour! Facts not in evidence! I suggest you do a remedial course in logical fallacies before you continue to argue in this thread.

Intellectuals often forget that maybe humans aren't the smartest creatures in the Universe.
 Quoting:


Sadly, you have demonstrated thus far that you don't really know what it means to be intellectual. I suspect you mean well, but you need to think about it a lot more than you have.

"Nature" is probably smarter than you... agreed?
 Quoting:


No, because Nature is not a conscious thing. Nature doesn't even exist as such. Ascribing intelligence to Nature is such a terrible insult to her!

Hence IT is not limited by your "logic"... Maybe there's just some things that our brains can't grasp at this point... like free will and how it works in a cause & effect environment... but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like the concept of zero still exists even if a 2-year old human can't grasp it.
 Quoting:


Ok, take a breath, you're just free-emoting now...

I'd have no problems with any of your statements, Natyrul or your philosopher friends, if you'd just end them with a little

My opinion, etc.
 Quoting:


Then you will have to have a problem with them because I will not pretend to merely believe what I know.

Believers are such ugly creatures.


Dan Rowden
drowden

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07/22/2006 10:11 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Oh, and the formatting features of this board entirely suck shit.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 10:15 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Free will is certainly a delusion.
drowden

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07/22/2006 10:22 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well no, and not necessarily... I would have to say, and one... that your dream-state would be like more than hint-filled of the vast spaciousness of all of the known, and unknown, universes... which you, btw, seem so very cavalierly... to somehow manage to shrink all possible probabilities for to fit into your more than rather limited view of the diversity of all that is.
 Quoting: gooderboy

trans_sign

Like, wow, are you, like high when you say that, like, wow, like wow, like, what? Where was I? Like. Oh yeah - WOW....

Needless to say any future dialogue will be dependent on my going insane...
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 10:29 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This thought vs reality discussion smacks of the chicken or the egg - which precedes which.


It would seem that if one espouses that reality precedes thought, then it would follow that we are not the authors/creators of our own realities.


This would be consistent with the assertion that free will does not exist.


However, I would submit that thought always precedes creation - which supports that we do indeed create our own realities - that we are at least participants in our life's direction and outcome - that we do exercise individual will - however free or limited at times.


The missing link here which has been discounted by the philosophical contingent is the existence of the soul - for if reality does not precede thought, perhaps it is the murmurings/proddings of the soul that spawn thoughts that eventually produce the desired reality/conditions/events which choreograph the intended experience for soul growth.



The question of free will may well hinge on the existence of the individual soul.


And once again, is you believe that free will does not exist and work backwards from that - then I suppose you would have to conclude that there is no eternal compass that carries us through life and beyond unto eternity.


It makes for interesting philosophical debate, I suppose, but it is not the case.
Celador

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07/22/2006 10:38 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"going to have to face the music, like it or not".

"yanking away all delusional security blankets."
--Naturyl

---------------------------
Some of us have already faced our own music and
yanked away all our own delusional security blankets.

What remains is that thing (essence or spirit) that you
find so elusive and frightening. If you were seeking to
understand it or even "possess" it, I would continue
to "play." But since you've made it clear that your
motive is to destroy it (which is impossible, btw)
I'm going to do that which you fear the most -- ignore you.
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Zaphod Beeblbrox

User ID: 83027
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07/22/2006 10:38 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You may not want to aknowledge what I'm telling you, or perhaps you are too dim to understand? (see I can throw inane insults too)
But Maybe you will listen to someone else describe the flaw in your original definition of thought and free will?

[link to www.dhushara.com]
New World Order credo:
The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!!
drowden

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07/22/2006 10:42 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And once again, is you believe that free will does not exist and work backwards from that - then I suppose you would have to conclude that there is no eternal compass that carries us through life and beyond unto eternity.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


A teleological view of existence/reality is necessarily unsustainable, meaningless and absurd. To assert a purpose and meaning to existence is to toss sand around in a philosophical sandbox.

Watch out for stray cats.


Dan Rowden
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 10:52 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen.
.....................................
Here is where your premis breaks down .
drowden

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07/22/2006 10:57 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"going to have to face the music, like it or not".

"yanking away all delusional security blankets."
--Naturyl

---------------------------
Some of us have already faced our own music and yanked away all our own delusional security blankets.

What remains is that thing (essence or spirit) that you find so elusive and frightening. If you were seeking to
understand it or even "possess" it, I would continue to "play." But since you've made it clear that your motive is to destroy it (which is impossible, btw)
I'm going to do that which you fear the most -- ignore you.
 Quoting: Celador


This is how the feminine works. Make you feel guilty without giving any actual reason why you should - with the added "if I ignore you you'll be hurt by my absence because I am what you want most.." bullshit.

Absence doesn't hurt an actual man; that is a uniquely female pain because women have no inner world into which they can retreat.

What would solitude be for a woman be if there wasn't someone in the next room?


Dan Rowden
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 11:14 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
>>>A teleological view of existence/reality is necessarily unsustainable, meaningless and absurd. To assert a purpose and meaning to existence is to toss sand around in a philosophical sandbox.<<<




Fortunately, I do not live in a philosophical sand box.



And there is no way out of yours, it would seem.



So does it follow that life has no purpose?


So what is desire?


Why does it create, seek results?


Is there anything to be gained from life?


Why do we create?


What is it inside that makes us feel satisfied when our creation meets our expectations?





Does your existence have any intention, or desire mixed in?





GLP