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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Sol Invictus

User ID: 112749
Denmark
07/22/2006 01:31 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Dan Rowden:
>>>
Sadly, you have demonstrated thus far that you don't really know what it means to be intellectual. I suspect you mean well, but you need to think about it a lot more than you have.
>>>

I never said I was an intellectual, I said I was "over-educated" :P To me, that can very easily turn into a flaw (and end up being counter productive) as your rigid thinking shows quite clearly.

Dan Rowden:
>>>
I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand.
---
Ok, so has anyone actually expressed that view?
>>>

Yes... unless I'm misunderstanding your whole point. Are you or are you not, dismissing even the *possibility* of free will? If you're not, if you're just 99% certain it doesn't exist, then I have no interest in trying to convince you otherwise at this point. It's simply the 100% certainty mind-set I'm arguing against.

You can ignore this last part if you're willing to concede even a 1% margin of error... but if not...

Dan Rowden:
>>>
Then you will have to have a problem with them because I will not pretend to merely believe what I know.
>>>

Well this is probably where I, like Celador, realize that you have an agenda - and it's not the search of the truth (or even a closer approximation of it) it's the imposition of *your truth*. Like as not, you're the believer... and what's more, you're a "true believer" ;)

I believe just two things.

We are what we are.

What is, is.

Everything else is open for discussion, as far as I'm concerned. Your beliefs, however much you like to delude yourself into calling them facts, go much much deeper than mine. But perhaps an intellectual like yourself can't quite bring yourself to accept that you really only *know* very little... I've had my fair share of these types of "unyielding on topics of dogma" discussions with Christians on this board in the past, haha, but I never thought I'd get to have them with a "philosopher".

Pity though, because some of your fellow intellectuals did manage to be both smart AND wise.

Didn't Socrates say

"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

?

Ahh but of course, you're so much smarter than him, I'm sure... ignorant fool, he didn't know anything, and he admitted as much!

:P
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 02:05 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
[link to pespmc1.vub.ac.be]

It Seems Naturyl Doesn't Know How To Play Nice With Others.

Before anyone else wastes time in a discussion with Naturyl, you should check the link to see what kind of fruit basket he is first.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 03:07 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. That is why one could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism, so please feel free to provide just that. I'd expect nothing less.

BTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions."



...awwww, poor baby (again, lol)... and ya still haven't ever even noticed that when ya point them de-meaning kinda fingers o'yours at others... there's 3 more of your fingers a'pointin' right back at ya.... tsk and tsk, lol.... and again too, get over yourself little boy.


Is "aww, poor baby" your stock answer to everything? Have you ever tried making an actual argument?

Just curious.
 Quoting: Naturyl


... no and not at all... haven't you been paying attention... and again?

And argument?????... lol, now that's really rich... pray tell what 'argument' are you talking about?
Are you like maybe feeling one of them causal and/or circumstantial kinda e-ventings of yours... and argumentively speaking, of course of course?
Or... are you still just pissin' in the wind, and so to speak? And I only say that cuz if you were to take look at what my response up there is to... you may just find yourself in the position of accusing others of exactly what you are so very feebly attempting to do to them... odd ain't it... and yet too then, what is there to make any sort of an argument of your on-going rantings and ravings there... eh?
Hell-o... anyone home?
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 03:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Anyone here got an IQ above genius?????

NO???

Yes. And so do Dan and Philosphaster.

Ask a question, get an answer. That's the way it goes.

If you want to "play nice," how about starting by not trying to knock us down just because we are speaking philosophically?

I know, too much to ask...
 Quoting: Naturyl


... hell-o... anybody home, lol???????????

Maybe you ought to have been taking your own advice there... eh? And I do mean really, if ya can't take it then maybe you shouldn't be dishin' it out... and don't ya think?

Or, lol, even better yet... why don't we just all go back and have a look at your postings? That ought to do it, and don't ya think?

And heck, I'm still waiting on ya for to just answer one of my questions that was put to ya... go figure, huh?

Do you like have one of them shortened attention span kinda thingies, and maybe?
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 03:45 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Soooo then, what causes 'thought' and/or that supposed 'not thought' o'yours? What is the cause?


Reality. What else could it be? If you take the duality of a thought and that which is not that thought you are left with *all that is*. Only a really silly person would consequently ask what the cause of Reality is. Are you that silly?


Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden


... me dear boy, lol, and again, how very cavalier "you" be with "your" usage of "your" worded issuings... and I do say, and most whole-heartedly I do... tsk, and tsk.

Simply put... by its very nature each and every consciousness "is" a most particular, peculiar, lol, and quite unique focus of awareness... which 'will' experience any possible realities through its very own characteristics. This is the way that diversity plays itself out... or, seeks its 'value' potential, and if ya so like.
So... when I hear you say 'reality', to me it is like the story of the blind man touching but a part of the elephant, and yet thinking that he has grasped the whole. And I am sad to say but I do think/feel/know that your idea of reality is but a very small part, or portion, of what I would term reality... and that is coming from just the limitations I've seen you imposing upon yourself here. You sir, are no seeker of truth.... and that's an ouch for us all too.

And I would suggest that you try expanding upon yourself maybe a tad. Try putting aside all of those convenient labels o'yours, and maybe really take a gooder look at your thoughts for (of) you? Then.... please to tell me just what dualites... and more.... you may find there?
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 03:47 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sorry... that was me up there... I must've timed out.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 03:55 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well no, and not necessarily... I would have to say, and one... that your dream-state would be like more than hint-filled of the vast spaciousness of all of the known, and unknown, universes... which you, btw, seem so very cavalierly... to somehow manage to shrink all possible probabilities for to fit into your more than rather limited view of the diversity of all that is.
trans_sign

Like, wow, are you, like high when you say that, like, wow, like wow, like, what? Where was I? Like. Oh yeah - WOW....

Needless to say any future dialogue will be dependent on my going insane...
 Quoting: drowden


... in other words, you are just being 'silly', and as you put it... and ... you didn't get it... right?

It is not a threat to your rather immature ego if you don't get something, and it's always okay to ask... and cuz all asking really means... is that you don't get it... get it?

And to... in-sane might just be quite gooder for ya too... and if ya just maybe stop and think about it.... and causally speaking even, of course of course, lol.... go ahead just give it a bit of a try.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 03:57 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sorry... that was me up there... I must've timed out.
 Quoting: gooderboy



your number identifies you, and I enjoy reading posts of yours where you're not 'yep yep yo-ing' your way through them.
Tone
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07/22/2006 03:59 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Zaphod and the others are in denial

its all about emotion - they cant take the truth of the fact that you cant find the origin of your thoughts therefore theres no free will - so what they do is go into emotional denial and this thread, which is like arguing weather or not 2 + 2 = 4 turns into an 11 page thread fo trash because of that emotional denial.
Tone
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07/22/2006 04:01 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
they are trying to say that this thread is some sort of philosophical debate of options, because of emotional denial

it is not. its a fact that has been stated, because you dont control the origin of your thoughts. this is all that beeds to be said, yet people will keep replying with nonsense because of their denial.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:03 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
And once again, is you believe that free will does not exist and work backwards from that - then I suppose you would have to conclude that there is no eternal compass that carries us through life and beyond unto eternity.

A teleological view of existence/reality is necessarily unsustainable, meaningless and absurd. To assert a purpose and meaning to existence is to toss sand around in a philosophical sandbox.

Watch out for stray cats.


Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden


And how do you arrive at that rather limiting, and empirically b'held conclusion o'yours?
Do you not have the eyes for to see and/or the ears for to hear... what's wrong with you, lol?
Please to show me one of 'your' actions and/or one of 'your' words that has no purpose?
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:05 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Oh, and the formatting features of this board entirely suck shit.
 Quoting: drowden


... only in 'your' reality, lol... eh?
Tone
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07/22/2006 04:08 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You arent making any sense and thinking this is opinions of philisophy. its not.

You dont control the origin of your thoughts which is what leads to your choices, therefore technically there is no free will. stop the garbage posts.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:14 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sorry... that was me up there... I must've timed out.



your number identifies you, and I enjoy reading posts of yours where you're not 'yep yep yo-ing' your way through them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 94685


... please then... and really too... holler at me whenever you see that I am doing that... and would ya? I would really appreciate it.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:19 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
they are trying to say that this thread is some sort of philosophical debate of options, because of emotional denial

it is not. its a fact that has been stated, because you dont control the origin of your thoughts. this is all that beeds to be said, yet people will keep replying with nonsense because of their denial.
 Quoting: Tone 120745


... yeah, that's the ticket, lol... "let's have an open discussion but if you don't see it my way than you are in denial."

Hmmm... and where oh where have I ever run into that kind of crap before... oh that's right, it's that 'if you don't go along with me you die' kinda crap again... OY!
rosswave

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07/22/2006 04:22 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
As Paradox Priest in the Church of the Divine Uncertainty and Immaculate Mystery, I decree the following:

"You create your own reality till shit happens, then it's god's fault...."
"What if everything you ever believed was tied up in a little box and eaten by cute little snails?"
--- Mark Morford
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 04:27 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sorry... that was me up there... I must've timed out.



your number identifies you, and I enjoy reading posts of yours where you're not 'yep yep yo-ing' your way through them.


... please then... and really too... holler at me whenever you see that I am doing that... and would ya? I would really appreciate it.
 Quoting: gooderboy


deal
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:28 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You arent making any sense and thinking this is opinions of philisophy. its not.

You dont control the origin of your thoughts which is what leads to your choices, therefore technically there is no free will. stop the garbage posts.
 Quoting: Tone 120745


... this is simply not true at all... and don't ya get it yet that that's what we're saying here, lol... hell-o!
And then if you know that to be true, then show me the origin of your thoughts please?

And too... if you were to really look out there, and into our dear Ma Nature... and all of the rest of them universes out there (in here), you'd find that it's not at all about control... control is man made shit... it's all about flow... and even them scientists now know that one... energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Energy simply changes form... and two, all energy flows along the paths of least resistance.

Soooo, get over it...and yourself too.

Now... where's that origin of thought... and please.
Kay
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07/22/2006 04:32 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
they are trying to say that this thread is some sort of philosophical debate of options, because of emotional denial

it is not. its a fact that has been stated, because you dont control the origin of your thoughts. this is all that beeds to be said, yet people will keep replying with nonsense because of their denial.


... yeah, that's the ticket, lol... "let's have an open discussion but if you don't see it my way than you are in denial."

Hmmm... and where oh where have I ever run into that kind of crap before... oh that's right, it's that 'if you don't go along with me you die' kinda crap again... OY!
 Quoting: gooderboy



LOL! Precisely.

And when a debate doesn't go their way, the immature start name calling.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:33 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
As Paradox Priest in the Church of the Divine Uncertainty and Immaculate Mystery, I decree the following:

"You create your own reality till shit happens, then it's god's fault...."
 Quoting: rosswave


... I like that one... but, and kinda sad to say... I also thinks it's been a bit overly abused too, lol.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 04:40 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
they are trying to say that this thread is some sort of philosophical debate of options, because of emotional denial

it is not. its a fact that has been stated, because you dont control the origin of your thoughts. this is all that beeds to be said, yet people will keep replying with nonsense because of their denial.


... yeah, that's the ticket, lol... "let's have an open discussion but if you don't see it my way than you are in denial."

Hmmm... and where oh where have I ever run into that kind of crap before... oh that's right, it's that 'if you don't go along with me you die' kinda crap again... OY!



LOL! Precisely.

And when a debate doesn't go their way, the immature start name calling.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


... I sure hear ya Kay... and I just really don't get it at all. What is all that 'making others out to be somehow less in order for me to feel better about me' stuff about anyways?

Ya know... guy! I mean, I can understand the immaturity stuff, and cuz we are all still learning and growing and all that gooder stuff... but that spoiled little brat immaturity stuff?????... I don't know... if just seems to be so very strong now-a-days. I'm sorry... and for going on and on like that... it just hurts is all.
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/22/2006 04:50 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
[link to www.dhushara.com]

Didn't our resident self appointed geniuses read the link I posted? It PROVES your little laws do not apply to consciousness.
You cannot apply a law based on Quantum mechanics to something that lies outside the laws of Quantum mechanics.
Consciousness does not fit within the framework. Until such time as it does, and someone reconciles the problem, your little conundrum does not apply. Of course this will never happen but I leave you with that little straw to clutch at.

Read the link. The author attempts to build a quantum consciousness and does a pretty good job of explaining why it doesn't work.
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/22/2006 04:54 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/22/2006 05:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027


Yep, 2+2 does equal 5 for the "free will" faithful. Whether it's god, consciousness, or the kitchen sink, they always find some way to preserve their pet delusions. 2+2=4 is not comforting or ego-gratifying enough for them. No, they need magic and invisible friends and eternal life and "free will." And they will say and do anything necessary to have them.

One can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/22/2006 05:26 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5


Yep, 2+2 does equal 5 for the "free will" faithful. Whether it's god, consciousness, or the kitchen sink, they always find some way to preserve their pet delusions. 2+2=4 is not comforting or ego-gratifying enough for them. No, they need magic and invisible friends and eternal life and "free will." And they will say and do anything necessary to have them.

One can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
 Quoting: Naturyl



Read the link.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 05:27 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So just when we have had enough of religious clones and their tiring, provincial, pedantic and tedious ways of discussing ultimate truth and reality - enter the philosophers - the new boys on the block - self assured and loaded with brain cells to spare - shooting holes in anyone's and everyone's positions as if we were suddenly elected the village idiots and they the elite intelligencia, charged with preserving the mantle of truth for all mankind.

Anyone notice the similarities in their take-no-prisoners approach to what they believe to be true? I

It is their way or the highway.


Yet the irony is just as palpable on their side of the hubris highway as on the religious side - as these philosopher kings elevate and defend a selected philosophical construct as sacrosanct, ignoring perhaps the fact that others of equal renown - such as existentialism - has personal choice/free will as its centerpiece.


But we are the idiots I guess for suggesting free will as a maxim is facile as to be laughable.

I have news for you guys.

You can debate and defend all you want and flash your intellectual acumen as some sort of badge of superiority if you wish, but I am telling you that YOU are wrong.


As a non-philosopher I may carry no sway with you guys - saddled with a paltry genius level IQ neophyte with an ivy league level education - but all that matters not a wit to me for it has naught to do with who I am, what I am and what I know to be in reality.


So continue to lift your legs on the rabble as if we are consigned for eternity looking up at you.


You too will know truth ultimately, but just as your Christian brothers, it will be AFTER you pass on that you finally discover that your pet models of reality are just that.
Anonymous Coward
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07/22/2006 05:37 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027


2 whats plus 2 whats?

mind you numbers don't really exist anywhere outside the human mind...they are symbols representing a value and therefore useless unless assigned value.

2 lemons plus 2 lemons can equal 5 ounces of lemon juice


if you think i'm being trite...think again.

it is a matter of perception..ESPECIALLY when referring to free will. which, in this thread you are.
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 07:45 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5


Yep, 2+2 does equal 5 for the "free will" faithful. Whether it's god, consciousness, or the kitchen sink, they always find some way to preserve their pet delusions. 2+2=4 is not comforting or ego-gratifying enough for them. No, they need magic and invisible friends and eternal life and "free will." And they will say and do anything necessary to have them.

One can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.



Read the link.
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027


bump
gooderboy

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07/22/2006 07:50 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So just when we have had enough of religious clones and their tiring, provincial, pedantic and tedious ways of discussing ultimate truth and reality - enter the philosophers - the new boys on the block - self assured and loaded with brain cells to spare - shooting holes in anyone's and everyone's positions as if we were suddenly elected the village idiots and they the elite intelligencia, charged with preserving the mantle of truth for all mankind.

Anyone notice the similarities in their take-no-prisoners approach to what they believe to be true? I

It is their way or the highway.


Yet the irony is just as palpable on their side of the hubris highway as on the religious side - as these philosopher kings elevate and defend a selected philosophical construct as sacrosanct, ignoring perhaps the fact that others of equal renown - such as existentialism - has personal choice/free will as its centerpiece.


But we are the idiots I guess for suggesting free will as a maxim is facile as to be laughable.

I have news for you guys.

You can debate and defend all you want and flash your intellectual acumen as some sort of badge of superiority if you wish, but I am telling you that YOU are wrong.


As a non-philosopher I may carry no sway with you guys - saddled with a paltry genius level IQ neophyte with an ivy league level education - but all that matters not a wit to me for it has naught to do with who I am, what I am and what I know to be in reality.


So continue to lift your legs on the rabble as if we are consigned for eternity looking up at you.


You too will know truth ultimately, but just as your Christian brothers, it will be AFTER you pass on that you finally discover that your pet models of reality are just that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


... nicely put.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/22/2006 08:03 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"You can debate and defend all you want and flash your intellectual acumen as some sort of badge of superiority if you wish, but I am telling you that YOU are wrong.
"

So, let me get this straight. You bash us for asserting that others are wrong and then proceed to announce that WE are wrong. Okie-dokie...

irony

BTW, the fact that you think we are wrong implies that you consider your own "intellectual acumen" to be be superior to ours. Incidentally, the same is true of everyone who disagrees with anyone else. There would be no reason to disagree with anyone unless you feel that you know better than they do. So guess what?

potkettle
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.





GLP