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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 117166
United States
07/23/2006 10:54 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
>>>The flaw of over-educated people, just to beat that particular point to death, is that "reason" can easily become their new "God", just as easily as other people have reasons for their worshipping any other deity...<<<


Although I would say that the term "over-educated" might be a bit oxymoronish, I would agree in principle that many people who are very logic-based can oftentimes not see the forest through the trees as they parse and dissect to the point where an original premise lies in shambles on the cutting room floor.


I am in a sales oriented business - I sell a financial product that is quite complex at times. It is known in my industry that the worst client to have is an engineer - they are convinced by education and by experience that there is nothing they can't understand and master by taking it apart and putting it back together again.

Unfortunately, when they put it back together - it's according to their design and hence, imbued with applied/intuited principles of functioning - which of course doesn't work at all in finance - BUT TRY TO TELL THEM THAT!!!!!!!!!
gooderboy

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07/23/2006 11:27 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
>>>The flaw of over-educated people, just to beat that particular point to death, is that "reason" can easily become their new "God", just as easily as other people have reasons for their worshipping any other deity...<<<


Although I would say that the term "over-educated" might be a bit oxymoronish, I would agree in principle that many people who are very logic-based can oftentimes not see the forest through the trees as they parse and dissect to the point where an original premise lies in shambles on the cutting room floor.


I am in a sales oriented business - I sell a financial product that is quite complex at times. It is known in my industry that the worst client to have is an engineer - they are convinced by education and by experience that there is nothing they can't understand and master by taking it apart and putting it back together again.

Unfortunately, when they put it back together - it's according to their design and hence, imbued with applied/intuited principles of functioning - which of course doesn't work at all in finance - BUT TRY TO TELL THEM THAT!!!!!!!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


... yeah, they do tend to do that, and for sure, lol... however I've also always noticed that they'll only go so far with whatever it is they are focusing in on. Then they'll come up with "something", and oh let's just say like that big bang stuff for instance... and then they stop. And meanwhile I'm going, "Yeah, and then what? What triggered this big bang then... what is that force that's involved for you to even come up with an idea/term like "bang"?"
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2006 12:12 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-George Bernard Shaw

That... more than 2 + 2 = 4, describes this thread best, I'd say.

I have no problem admitting that you - Dan, Naturyl, and whatever other dedicated philosophers might be here - can make a much more cogent rational A+ college paper argument than I could, and if we were in a university-style debate with PhD judges, you'd probably win. I tried the logical approach, tried arguing by your premises and semantic interpretations, and of course, since you've got (for example) the dictionary definition of arrogance and a whole science of logic on your side, I have to stand corrected on those account, at least within *those* parameters of the discussion ;)

The reason that your argument on *that level* is more cogent and logical however, is because I *do* understand everything you are saying. Both of you, however, do not seem to understand - or even acknowledge the right to exist - of the slightly "unreasonable" position, upon which all progress depends.

You say 2 + 2 = 4, and I'm forced to say 2 + 2 MIGHT not always be 4 even though I agree that in 99.99% of the cases 2 + 2 is indeed 4. Then you predictably act all reasonable and say "no it MUST be so 100% of the time"... but therein lies your problem, and there is where I can't agree with you.

Your philosophy offers nothing new, nothing life-affirming, and no motivation to do anything, because it's all out of our hands anyways. It's cold and dead, like the equation 2 + 2 = 4 is cold and dead. I'm not going to bother pursuing this "emotional argument" with you since it'll no doubt be dismissed out of hand, and I'm not generally the emotional-argument type anyways, but it IS a critical aspect of it that can't be ignored - even if it's all cause & effect to you.

Feel free to spend the rest of your lives in a philosophical shell, safely insulated by your own parameters and definitions. Some of us are still *honestly* trying to figure it all out... and that means that in good conscience, we have to accept that there are some things which can't be figured out rationally... at least, not with the brainpower presently at our disposal, genius level IQ or not. Our "genius" standard is relative... it may be "borderline retarded" on a hypothetically more advanced alien scale ;)

This is not an attempt to "win the argument", I'm past that already, as you also seem to be. It's more of an "After Action Report", just a last attempt at clarifying *why* we have to agree to disagree... despite your many "reasonable" arguments :P

The flaw of over-educated people, just to beat that particular point to death, is that "reason" can easily become their new "God", just as easily as other people have reasons for their worshipping any other deity... you dare not defy reason, because your entire life and philosophy has been built around it!

Well I prefer to keep free from *all* systems and dogma... if you're right, I've got nothing to lose, since at least I *tried* to live fully in a cause & effect Universe, and when I'm dead, there's no afterlife to dwell on that mistake in.

If *I'm* right, however, you're both wasting your lives because you mistakenly convinced yourselves that trying to "live free" in a *pre-dominantly* cause & effect universe was not even an option, and you'll realize it at some point in your future existence as well :P

Logically any *reasonable* person would go with the "trying option" unless he needed the emotional comfort of not feeling responsible for his/her actions, or is that flawed logic as well?

Anyways, thanks again for a good discussion. Believe it or not, I actually *did* learn something from it.
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


thank you Sol Invictus cheers flower
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32814
United States
07/23/2006 01:10 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
How do we know there is a creator to deny?

If you know some of what we know about how our brain works, you know its all in a balance. Ever watch Scanners? Damn good movie about how we figured out how to block the inhibitors in our mind :)
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/23/2006 01:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sol,

I also thank you for an interesting exchange. While some on this thread (who will remain nameless) seemed more intent on belittling and heckling, you consistently engaged the issues, and that is to your credit. I don't agree with some of your conclusions, but I'm fine with that, and I think you are as well.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 121142
United States
07/23/2006 01:21 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Sol,

I also thank you for an interesting exchange. While some on this thread (who will remain nameless) seemed more intent on belittling and heckling, you consistently engaged the issues, and that is to your credit. I don't agree with some of your conclusions, but I'm fine with that, and I think you are as well.
 Quoting: Naturyl


cheers it takes many degrees to make a circle....if we all held the same position we'd have only a point.

Thanks for holding your own and authenticating the circle.
Sol Invictus

User ID: 112749
Denmark
07/23/2006 01:30 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I'm definitely fine with that, Naturyl. I believe in free will, remember? ;)

cheers to you and everyone else on this thread.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
fourth dimensional entity

User ID: 70681
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07/23/2006 02:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The strongest indication that human beings have "free will" lies in their ability to end their current "existence" at anytime (we know this time to be named "reality transition").

THIS is why the third dimension is so challenging. Your concept of "non-existence" is cloudy and almost fearful, and thus most civil issues are put in context of life and death.

At the fourth dimension and beyond, the concept of free will is different. From our perspective, it is built into our current vehicles that there is no current "end" near, and we simply can't "transition" to the next level by ending our energy. As one can imagine, attitudes change once this is "fact", and you can only imagine the difference in fourth dimensional life.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 121142
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07/23/2006 02:10 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The strongest indication that human beings have "free will" lies in their ability to end their current "existence" at anytime (we know this time to be named "reality transition").

THIS is why the third dimension is so challenging. Your concept of "non-existence" is cloudy and almost fearful, and thus most civil issues are put in context of life and death.

At the fourth dimension and beyond, the concept of free will is different. From our perspective, it is built into our current vehicles that there is no current "end" near, and we simply can't "transition" to the next level by ending our energy. As one can imagine, attitudes change once this is "fact", and you can only imagine the difference in fourth dimensional life.
 Quoting: fourth dimensional entity

applause
Jodido

User ID: 9144
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07/23/2006 02:12 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND . GOD.

something is either random , or its influenced by the thing before it, (caused). how much simplier can it be to you. free will cannot exist technically. shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549



I am sorry but your logic is off. Define the word will...

But freedom of choice may be more apt for this thread's argument. EG we are put in this circumstance/reality, what are we going to do about it? Who put us in this circumstance....

If you reason that God exists, then what is free will? Well, define god. Among other things god is all knowing. We are not. What does that tell ya, I mean if god does exist?

We exist in the heart. We feel. Man is created in god's image. We are thoughtforms of god. But, we are in the heart of god, not the mind. We have to have this seperation to get the free will to co-create with god...
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2006 02:29 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
To me it seems that any occasion where you have a breach in the laws of physics there is prima-facie evidence of another dimensions interaction. A breach like a hole/portal poking through, of sorts, where the intruding dimension has other sets of laws/rules.

A portal? Maybe you have proven/rationalized that the mind is a dimensional portal.

headbang





GLP