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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Celador

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07/19/2006 09:05 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche.

As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me."


tounge
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:07 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche.

As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me."


tounge
 Quoting: Celador



Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did?

whats that, because you thought of it?

where did that thought come from?

i await your answer


thank you very much


PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts.
Sol Invictus

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07/19/2006 09:07 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread?

thanks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


It has everything to do with the thread... If OP's logic was flawless, then there'd be no discussion. For us to have a discussion, I first had to question the validity of his logic, which could only be done by using counter-logic :P

As for stimuli, you're talking about cause & effect of course. Keep in mind though, that cause & effect is based on a perception of linear time.

A leads to B leads to C.

What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See?

If *some* events JUST ARE... then free will does exist, just like causality obviously does exist. Why does one exclude the other?
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:10 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
where did your thought come from that there is no free will?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312



it was determined by every position of every neuron in my brain and every connection they make with every other neuron and everything ive experience externally that formed those connections. i did not chose it.

fortunately though im right and the others are wrong.
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 09:10 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche.

As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me."


tounge



Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did?

whats that, because you thought of it?

where did that thought come from?

i await your answer


thank you very much


PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


But do you exist without thought?
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:11 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But do you exist without thought?
 Quoting: the Questeon ?



wtf
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 09:12 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread?

thanks.


It has everything to do with the thread... If OP's logic was flawless, then there'd be no discussion. For us to have a discussion, I first had to question the validity of his logic, which could only be done by using counter-logic :P

As for stimuli, you're talking about cause & effect of course. Keep in mind though, that cause & effect is based on a perception of linear time.

A leads to B leads to C.

What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See?

If *some* events JUST ARE... then free will does exist, just like causality obviously does exist. Why does one exclude the other?
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


I like that explanation Sol :5:
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
the Questeon ?

User ID: 7308
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07/19/2006 09:13 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But do you exist without thought?



wtf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


I'll take that as a no! (in your opinion)
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See?


I like that explanation Sol :5:
 Quoting: the Questeon ?



OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything


wtf
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Honestly I did not understand, if you could dumb it down for me, it might help clarify things.
 Quoting: Azoth777


People don't have free will because all events in the universe are caused or random, and human actions are events in the universe.

Does that help?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
celador
User ID: 2996
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07/19/2006 09:16 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche.

As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me."


tounge



Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did?

whats that, because you thought of it?

where did that thought come from?

i await your answer


thank you very much


PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


Ask YOURSELF that question, answer as
honestly and fearlessly as you are capable and you will have your answer.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:17 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND . GOD.

something is either random , or its influenced by the thing before it, (caused). how much simplier can it be to you. free will cannot exist technically. shit.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:18 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
it doesnt matter what anyone types in this fucking thread because its all determined and not free will, technically.

you cannot control your DNA and your neurons and the things that pop up that make you think things and how you come up with those thoughts or anything


get in through your dumb fuckin head. free will cant exist. shit. im out of here.
Celador

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07/19/2006 09:19 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Honestly I did not understand, if you could dumb it down for me, it might help clarify things.


People don't have free will because all events in the universe are caused or random, and human actions are events in the universe.

Does that help?
 Quoting: Naturyl


You were also incorrect about the nature
of consciousness.
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:19 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
the fact that you can deny your Creator
proves that you have free will
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


You keep on and on with this stuff, but it demonstrates nothing. Your belief in god is caused by various factors. My disbelief is caused by other factors. Belief or disbelief in god has nothing whatsoever to do with free will.

Not everything is about your silly god.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Azoth777

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07/19/2006 09:20 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Not completely, but thanks. I made me think if I had a red, and a blue spoon in front of me, and I chose the red. I would perceive the choice as free will, but that would not negate the possiblity that that choice was a random event.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:20 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
so, according to you we are animals and not responsible for our behavior?
how would you run a society based on this belief?
keep everyone in a cage?
and who would be the keepers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312



OH FOR FUCKS SAKE, i cannot stand the retardation here
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:21 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Not completely, but thanks. I made me think if I had a red, and a blue spoon in front of me, and I chose the red. I would perceive the choice as free will, but that would not negate the possiblity that that choice was a random event.
 Quoting: Azoth777


correct
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:21 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet..

nospam

YOU JERK, YOU DAMN SPAMING JERK

I DONT WANT YOUR FUCKIN LYRICS IN THIS THREAD< SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OH YOU SPAMING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549





blink










laugh
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:21 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
so, according to you we are animals and not responsible for our behavior?
how would you run a society based on this belief?
keep everyone in a cage?
and who would be the keepers?



OH FOR FUCKS SAKE, i cannot stand the retardation here
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549




laugh
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:22 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
so, if no one can control themselves, why do we have prison?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312



because the people who made prisons did, because society has the thoughts it has. none of it matters and there is no free will. dont you understand
Sol Invictus

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07/19/2006 09:22 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything

wtf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


Maybe your mind just can't grasp what I'm saying ;) I'd draw a little picture for you or use my hands to explain, but unfortunately that would be hard on GLP...

So let me try to again with just words.

You are saying we have no choice, no free will.

I'm at A, and no matter what I do, I'll go to B, because that's what A leads to. Therefore I have no choice, no free will.

Follow me so far?

OK.

What if however, I got superpowers. What if I, in this moment, could see an *infinite* amount of variations of my future unfold... and what if my mind could actually make sense of it. I could go to B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way through the alphabet and into infinite numbers if I wanted to. Are you saying that in that moment of super-thought, I wouldn't have free will?

I would move through time to do things, obviously, but time would not *limit* me anymore... since I could navigate "potential futures" at will.

Does that make more sense to you?
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
the Questeon ?

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07/19/2006 09:23 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See?


I like that explanation Sol :5:



OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything


wtf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


metaphysics will teach you there is something beyond space time ...unconditioned ... choiceless...timeless..
a conciousness without an object and you are that. Also because of that you have free will(choice).
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:23 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion.

Premise 1: All german shepherds are dogs

Premise 2: All dogs are mammals

Conclusion: All mammals are dogs.

hmm

But your logic is better than that, of course.

Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option, even if I personally think it's not all that common :P

Cause & Effect rules most of the world, granted.
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


Wouldn't the conclusion found by your premise 1 and 2 be.
All german shepherds are mammals.
gooderboy

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07/19/2006 09:24 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
IDIOTS


UNDERSTAND THIS:

when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will.

dont you understand. god damn.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


... are you nuts or what, lol?

You sound like what Einstein was talking about when he said, "Take care not to make intellect a god. It has muscle, but no personality."

... and yet, and even after having that being said... you're choosing there to personalize that which you are attempting to im-personalize.... lol, how do you even do that?

... and you are most right on too... for it is indeed - "your" - internal neuron activity... individualized and personalized, for there is no other 'activity' kinda vibration and/or frequency quite like it.

... and then no, it is hardly about "just" external stimuli... lol, and if ya don't believe me... just go out there and ask anyone anywhere and at any time.
And you dang well know it too... for it is all about "how 'you' perceive" anything that colours in "your" world pov for 'you'.
If it was just about external stimuli than everyone would see everything the very same way... and gee, guess what, lol, they don't?
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:25 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What sources can I reference to learn about uncased quantum fluctuations in the brain? I would like to learn more.
 Quoting: Azoth777


This is a good place to start:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:25 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
YOU JERK, YOU DAMN SPAMING JERK

I DONT WANT YOUR FUCKIN LYRICS IN THIS THREAD< SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OH YOU SPAMING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


Have a decaffe, jacko.


coffeecup neener
Azoth777

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07/19/2006 09:26 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Thanks Bro!
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:27 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
where did your thought come from that there is no free will?



it was determined by every position of every neuron in my brain and every connection they make with every other neuron and everything ive experience externally that formed those connections. i did not chose it.

fortunately though im right and the others are wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


Question:

Why do we feel?

"Well, that's simple.. because electrical signals from our nerves are regesterd as 'feel receptors' to the brain."

Why do we have these 'receptors'.

"Well, that's simple.. because we were born with them."

Why were we born with them?

"Because our parents' sperm and egg cells carry Human DNA that holds our physical Human image, which includes these 'receptors' in it's design."

Why does our DNA have these 'receptor images'?

"I've already told you that- 'Because our parents' sperm and egg cells carry Human DNA, which in turn holds our physical Human image- which includes these 'receptors' in it's design."

And why do they have DNA?

"Because your parents' parents had the same Human design...."

And why do our parents have the same 'design' as their children?

"Because their children, by nessecity, obtained their parents' physcial make-up at conception."

How did these "receptors" get into our parents' "DNA"?

"Evolution of single-celled organisms into multi-cellular organisms.."

Why did these single-celled organisms evole?

Because... of nessesity?

Why did they feel it nessecary to evole?

Because of the changes in the environment.

Why did they change environments, thus forcing their own evolution?

"Because they just happened to be at the right place at the right time?"

We've hit a brick wall, haven't we?

Sure, all of this can be shelved away as "randomized events", but that's bs. It's just circular logic at play.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:27 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This whole thread:

bsmeter

And I do get it, but your first assumption is flawed. You cannot quantify thought as a caused OR random event. Nobody knows what it is.





GLP