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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/19/2006 09:28 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You do know that Alex Jones is a fundamentalist Christian? Why are you watching his movies?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72054


I know. That fact does bother me, but he usually refrains from preaching. On those occassions when he does mention religion, I skip ahead until he moves on to something else.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:29 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
no
we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior
we have laws
because people can choose to obey them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


Damn...

Why not just imprison that bastard internal neuron activities?
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:31 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This whole thread:

bsmeter

And I do get it, but your first assumption is flawed. You cannot quantify thought as a caused OR random event. Nobody knows what it is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83027


A thought is an event. All events are either caused or random. Therefore, thoughts are either caused or random.

Are you suggesting that there are events which are neither caused or random? That doesn't make any sense. Events either have a cause, or they don't.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:33 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This whole thread:

bsmeter

And I do get it, but your first assumption is flawed. You cannot quantify thought as a caused OR random event. Nobody knows what it is.


A thought is an event. All events are either caused or random. Therefore, thoughts are either caused or random.

Are you suggesting that there are events which are neither caused or random? That doesn't make any sense. Events either have a cause, or they don't.
 Quoting: Naturyl


So, those damned internal neuron activities cause us to kill?

So if we just kill those damned neurons, there would be no crime?

macgun KILL THEM BASTARDS!!
Sol Invictus

User ID: 112749
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07/19/2006 09:34 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Wouldn't the conclusion found by your premise 1 and 2 be.
All german shepherds are mammals.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119568


That would work too, I guess, but I was following OP's style to make a point.

A = german shepherds/events
B = Dogs/caused or random
C = Mammals/human actions

A = B

B = C

Therefore

C = B

And Naturyl, as for

>>>
Are you suggesting that there are events which are neither caused or random? That doesn't make any sense. Events either have a cause, or they don't.
>>>

That's exactly what *I'm* saying, at least... and unless you claim to have the universal laws of physics worked out 100%, you'd have to be at least open to the possibility... What do you think caused the FIRST CAUSE? I'd like an answer, if you've got one, because it should be good...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:36 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."

"Free will" is a very dangerous delusion. It is at the root of a great deal of evil. The sooner we realize this, the better.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:36 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I don't think Free Will is a Delusion but it's definitely an Illusion.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:38 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."
 Quoting: Naturyl


Why put them in jail for a mere possibility? If everyone is capable of illegal activities, then why imprison those select few who don't even make a free will decision to commit a crime?
Kay
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07/19/2006 09:43 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything

wtf


Maybe your mind just can't grasp what I'm saying ;) I'd draw a little picture for you or use my hands to explain, but unfortunately that would be hard on GLP...

So let me try to again with just words.

You are saying we have no choice, no free will.

I'm at A, and no matter what I do, I'll go to B, because that's what A leads to. Therefore I have no choice, no free will.

Follow me so far?

OK.

What if however, I got superpowers. What if I, in this moment, could see an *infinite* amount of variations of my future unfold... and what if my mind could actually make sense of it. I could go to B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way through the alphabet and into infinite numbers if I wanted to. Are you saying that in that moment of super-thought, I wouldn't have free will?

I would move through time to do things, obviously, but time would not *limit* me anymore... since I could navigate "potential futures" at will.

Does that make more sense to you?
 Quoting: Sol Invictus



You know, people here at glp make it very difficult to simply have an intellectual discussion.

Just because someone is presenting an opposing position on a subject doesn't mean that that person is 'retarded' or 'had his skull bashed in'.

Sol Invictus is probably one of the most erudite posters that have ever been on this board.

I really hate so see someone so sharp berated this way. He has a great deal to offer us all here.

Sol, I apologize for this cretin's behavior. I hope you can forgive the insipid insults.

Peace
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/19/2006 09:44 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
all of you behaviorists cannot explain why we have courts and prisons
because, according to you we have no choice in our actions
some people are just magically law abiding and others magically commit crimes

this is magical thinking
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


LOL. For a free-will believer to accuse determinists of "magical thinking" is deliciously ironic. You are the magical thinker, because you believe that human beings are so special that they get to to override the laws of physics and create events which are neither caused or random. That is pure magical thinking. It's practically the gold standard of magical thinking, in fact.

And BTW, prisons and courts are perfectly sensible without a belief in free will. Some people are caused to commit crimes, and the rest of us need to be protected from such persons. How you could fail to understand so simple is beyond me.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Celador

User ID: 2996
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07/19/2006 09:45 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."

"Free will" is a very dangerous delusion. It is at the root of a great deal of evil. The sooner we realize this, the better.
 Quoting: Naturyl


I know from your "genius" thread that you
are playing devil's advocate but you are
walking a razor's edge between strength
and fragility but, you know this...

On a lighter note, we didn't get our WWIII (eschatology)
so we have to make do arguing about
epistemology


lol
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/19/2006 09:48 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Sol Invictus is probably one of the most erudite posters that have ever been on this board.

I really hate so see someone so sharp berated this way. He has a great deal to offer us all here."

I agree. I've read a few of Sol's posts, and he seems sharp. Personally, I wouldn't berate a sincere and intellectually capable opponent simply for having a different view. That would be counterproductive and in poor taste.

Some of these other cretins are a different stoy, though. Ignorance alone can be tolerated, but when ignorance is combined with self-righteous arrogance, that's a hard combo to stomach.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 09:49 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
all of you behaviorists cannot explain why we have courts and prisons
because, according to you we have no choice in our actions
some people are just magically law abiding and others magically commit crimes

this is magical thinking


LOL. For a free-will believer to accuse determinists of "magical thinking" is deliciously ironic. You are the magical thinker, because you believe that human beings are so special that they get to to override the laws of physics and create events which are neither caused or random. That is pure magical thinking. It's practically the gold standard of magical thinking, in fact.

And BTW, prisons and courts are perfectly sensible without a belief in free will. Some people are caused to commit crimes, and the rest of us need to be protected from such persons. How you could fail to understand so simple is beyond me.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt.
Sol Invictus

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07/19/2006 09:49 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Haha, no worries Kay... I actually think most insults on GLP are pretty funny! My ego doesn't bruise all that easily, and if I'm wrong I'm happy to be proven wrong. I love those little ACs, GLP wouldn't be the same without em ;)

And Natyrul... no rush if you're still thinking, but really, what did cause the first cause?

As they say, to disprove the Law that all crows are black, you don't have to prove that 99% are, you just have to find one that is not... and if just *one* event is neither caused nor random, then your first premise isn't quite true...

Oh, and thanks btw, you seem to be quite the sharp one yourself!
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 09:51 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I know from your "genius" thread that you
are playing devil's advocate but you are
walking a razor's edge between strength
and fragility but, you know this...
 Quoting: Celador


Actually, I'm serious about this. The "genius" thread was tounge-in-cheek, but I'm actually making a sincere argument here.

I do not believe in free will, and I think the world would be a better place if others lacked this belief as well.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Azoth777

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07/19/2006 09:58 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
A lot of sesquipedalianists on this thread. A nice distraction from the mundane talk at work.
Kay
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07/19/2006 09:58 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The answer I prefer is that cause is plural. The choice, the free will is there.

This is proven in the newer sciences that show multiple universes with multiple choices... what we would call eternity.

In addition, you also have the chaos problem. Sol is right. There is no such thing as 100% black ravens.

There is always the .0001% in the equation.
Sol Invictus

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07/19/2006 10:00 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
>>>
Actually, I'm serious about this. The "genius" thread was tounge-in-cheek, but I'm actually making a sincere argument here.
>>>

Well if it's a sincere argument, you should answer sincere questions...

Causality argued on a "down to earth" level is a fact. I've been there, done that myself... for a little while I actually did believe everything was cause & effect. But then I got over it, by *really* thinking it through :P Not with some woo-woo stuff, pure logic is enough.

What caused the first cause?

And no, it's not a chicken and an egg question, that one's easy to solve. It's obviously the egg.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 10:00 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
so, you are programmed to resist any religious talk?
why do you think that is?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


Because, thank heavens, I have been extensively exposed to science, logic, reason, and philosophy. Those factors in combination with innumerable other aspects of my personality deterine that I will view religion as crapola.

And that's the way I like it. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
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07/19/2006 10:03 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well, that is good, Sol.

LOL, I didn't mean to imply that you have a thin skin. Rather, you have to wonder, when the flaming goes berserk, what is the point?
FubarMan

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07/19/2006 10:05 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Just read Fictor Franlkle's,Man's searc for Meaning."

You are free.

I doubt most would get it here.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 10:06 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
That's exactly what *I'm* saying, at least... and unless you claim to have the universal laws of physics worked out 100%, you'd have to be at least open to the possibility... What do you think caused the FIRST CAUSE? I'd like an answer, if you've got one, because it should be good...
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


Events either have a cause, or they don't. If they do not have a cause, they are not the result of free will, because in free will, *choice* is the causal agent.

According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.

Eseentially, the world and all events within it (human actions or otherwise) "just is," as you suggested - but I disgree with you that this perspective establishes or supports free will.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Celador

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07/19/2006 10:08 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well, that is good, Sol.

LOL, I didn't mean to imply that you have a thin skin. Rather, you have to wonder, when the flaming goes berserk, what is the point?
 Quoting: Kay 72054



Short memory spans here. You apparently
forgot the Denmark cartoon thread.



neener
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 10:13 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


You need to think deeper. Determinsim does not remove accountability. People need to be heald accountable for their actions because actions have consequences, not because anyone is or is not "responsible" for them. responsibility is a meaningless red herring. Accountability is about consequences, not blame.

Your hypothetical poor bank robber must be held accountable simply because it is not good for society to have people running around robbing banks. It does not matter whether the robber was "responsible" for his actions in some meaningless, magical sense. What matters is that bank robbery is an antisocial action, and society must defend itself against such actions.

My logic is sound and irrefutable. Your perspective is corrupt, because you are deluded by the fiction of free will.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
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07/19/2006 10:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The definition of 'reponsible' contains bearing the weight of the consequences of the action.
Kay
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07/19/2006 10:18 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You need to think deeper. Determinsim does not remove accountability. People need to be heald accountable for their actions because actions have consequences, not because anyone is or is not "responsible" for them.


---------

The definition in the Webster's dictionary is holding someone to account for their actions.
Anonymous Coward
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07/19/2006 10:18 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
That's exactly what *I'm* saying, at least... and unless you claim to have the universal laws of physics worked out 100%, you'd have to be at least open to the possibility... What do you think caused the FIRST CAUSE? I'd like an answer, if you've got one, because it should be good...


Events either have a cause, or they don't. If they do not have a cause, they are not the result of free will, because in free will, *choice* is the causal agent.

According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.

Eseentially, the world and all events within it (human actions or otherwise) "just is," as you suggested - but I disgree with you that this perspective establishes or supports free will.
 Quoting: Naturyl


You still don't understand. Hopeless. He blantantly ignores each and every one of my rebuttals, and yet clings to his petty logic. It's an completely unbalanced way of thinking.

I'll say it again.

"Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt."
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 10:19 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Again, events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not, they cannot be the result of free will, because free will requires that choice be the causal agent.

And, of course, the event we call "choice" itself either has a cause or it does not. Here we have a vicious regress which makes the traditional libertarian version of free will essentially meaningless.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
FubarMan

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07/19/2006 10:20 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
FREE WILL


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet..
 Quoting: Rush 119559


Oh yeah, neil pert!!!
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/19/2006 10:22 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You still don't understand. Hopeless. He blantantly ignores each and every one of my rebuttals, and yet clings to his petty logic. It's an completely unbalanced way of thinking.

I'll say it again.

"Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


I answered your entire argument fully. The issue of responsibility does not matter. Even without any belief in free will, we can (and should) imprison criminals simply because criminals are dangerous to society, and we need protection from their actions. What part of this are you having so much trouble with?

I won't repeat myself again. If you don't get it this time, please feel free to just post some more insults, which I will ignore.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.





GLP