Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,326 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 498,069
Pageviews Today: 1,190,554Threads Today: 739Posts Today: 13,195
04:13 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Free Will is a Delusion

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 119592
Russian Federation
07/19/2006 10:24 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I am exposed to logic and science too. But the First Cause and the power that drives the Nature is a mystery I would like to unravel.


Just WHY and HOW does it move>?
Ajax
User ID: 110320
United States
07/19/2006 10:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Delusion is reality too
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 118505
United States
07/19/2006 10:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Again, events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not, they cannot be the result of free will, because free will requires that choice be the causal agent.

And, of course, the event we call "choice" itself either has a cause or it does not. Here we have a vicious regress which makes the traditional libertarian version of free will essentially meaningless.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Then, say, if one were to rob a bank- what caused such an event? His desire for money? Why would one desire money, if he isn't poor? Greed? Why be greedy? Greed stems from the belief that there isn't enough "stuff" to share with everyone. Why do people believe this? Because they believe our resources are limited. Why do they believe our resources are limited? Because they believe the World itself, and all of that within it, is finite. Now, tell me, why would they believe that? Because greedy people hoard of all the "stuff" for themselves.

Now why are these people greedy?

:clogic:

It's a never ending cycle. The only other option is choice. The cause and effect principle does not apply to all things. They do not apply to intangible concepts and thoughts. They do not apply to that which cannot be conceived.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 118505
United States
07/19/2006 10:29 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Really, this is all just a ruse to attempt to contemplate understanding.

Contemplation IS understanding. One cannot define the other.
Sol Invictus

User ID: 112749
Denmark
07/19/2006 10:30 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In reply to your answer, Natyrul, no, see now you're overstepping pure logic and going into assumptions...

>>>
According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.
>>>

That's not my definition of free will.

Be careful that you're not subconsciously using the old strawman tactic, creating a "convenient" definition of free will that is easy to dismiss. You're saying it's either free will, or causality, and I disagree. I think it's elements of both.

I accept that maybe 99% of my actions at this point are not done by free will. It's all causality... I sleep when tired, eat when hungry, work when I need money, find something fun to do when bored, my life is a result of my genetic heritage and parental upbringing, etc. I have no problem with your argument on that account, and I'm sure we could both argue long and hard to support that argument if someone paid us to do so.

You say however you don't *believe* in first causes... ok, now we're getting somewhere.

>>>
But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.
>>>

Well then this is the point where I say that I don't *believe* in anything that's infinite and eternal, just like you don't *believe* in first causes ;)

Notice how at this point none of us can really prove anything? My "first cause" disproves your logic, and your "nature is infinite and eternal" disproves mine. You were first using pure logic, but now you're using belief to counter my argument...

That's my whole point, really. Your first premise in the OP argument is *potentially* flawed, hence your conclusion is also potentially flawed.

You can't *disprove* free will with logic if it requires a disbelief in a First Cause, hence, you have to accept the *possibility* of it existing :P My belief is that there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing.

I don't care either way, I'm happy to agree to disagree... I just like arguing with people who claim they have found "the truth", because I've yet to see anyone make a perfect argument :P
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Celador

User ID: 2996
United States
07/19/2006 10:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"we can (and should) imprison criminals simply because criminals are dangerous to society, and we need protection from their actions"
-----------

Define your definition of "we" and I
may have a better idea of what you are
so urgently trying to express.

Believe me, if you can't find people
here who cannot understand you, you
won't find them anywhere...

Kind of like New York, rofl
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Kay
User ID: 72054
United States
07/19/2006 10:32 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.


===============

So, you are calling Nature the Creator, then - seeing that you capitalize the word, 'Nature'.

Hence, in effect you are blaming the endless problems (those events we need protection from) on the Creator.

Correct?
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 10:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Again, events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not, they cannot be the result of free will, because free will requires that choice be the causal agent.

And, of course, the event we call "choice" itself either has a cause or it does not. Here we have a vicious regress which makes the traditional libertarian version of free will essentially meaningless.


Then, say, if one were to rob a bank- what caused such an event? His desire for money? Why would one desire money, if he isn't poor? Greed? Why be greedy? Greed stems from the belief that there isn't enough "stuff" to share with everyone. Why do people believe this? Because they believe our resources are limited. Why do they believe our resources are limited? Because they believe the World itself, and all of that within it, is finite. Now, tell me, why would they believe that? Because greedy people hoard of all the "stuff" for themselves.

Now why are these people greedy?

:clogic:

It's a never ending cycle. The only other option is choice. The cause and effect principle does not apply to all things. They do not apply to intangible concepts and thoughts. They do not apply to that which cannot be conceived.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


You are introducing the circular logic. It is not part of my argument. The chain of causation which influences all non-random events stretches backward in time to the big bang. It does not loop back on itself, it simply proceeds from cause to event in the direction of time's arrow. Each event then becomes a cause which influences future events.

Think dominoes.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 118505
United States
07/19/2006 10:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Again, events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not, they cannot be the result of free will, because free will requires that choice be the causal agent.

And, of course, the event we call "choice" itself either has a cause or it does not. Here we have a vicious regress which makes the traditional libertarian version of free will essentially meaningless.


Then, say, if one were to rob a bank- what caused such an event? His desire for money? Why would one desire money, if he isn't poor? Greed? Why be greedy? Greed stems from the belief that there isn't enough "stuff" to share with everyone. Why do people believe this? Because they believe our resources are limited. Why do they believe our resources are limited? Because they believe the World itself, and all of that within it, is finite. Now, tell me, why would they believe that? Because greedy people hoard of all the "stuff" for themselves.

Now why are these people greedy?

:clogic:

It's a never ending cycle. The only other option is choice. The cause and effect principle does not apply to all things. They do not apply to intangible concepts and thoughts. They do not apply to that which cannot be conceived.


You are introducing the circular logic. It is not part of my argument. The chain of causation which influences all non-random events stretches backward in time to the big bang. It does not loop back on itself, it simply proceeds from cause to event in the direction of time's arrow. Each event then becomes a cause which influences future events.

Think dominoes.
 Quoting: Naturyl


If that's the case, then what force set these events in motion?

Chaos?
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 10:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.


===============

So, you are calling Nature the Creator, then - seeing that you capitalize the word, 'Nature'.

Hence, in effect you are blaming the endless problems (those events we need protection from) on the Creator.

Correct?
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Correct.

However, it is important to note that I am also giving Nature credit for all goodness and joy, as well as the ability to protect ourselves from Nature's darker events.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
User ID: 72054
United States
07/19/2006 10:42 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well then I just wonder, for you personally, where do you get your moral code? Do you have a moral compass at all? The belief in a lack of free will would not make you a very good neighbor, I'm afraid.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 10:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In reply to your answer, Natyrul, no, see now you're overstepping pure logic and going into assumptions...

>>>
According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.
>>>

That's not my definition of free will.

Be careful that you're not subconsciously using the old strawman tactic, creating a "convenient" definition of free will that is easy to dismiss. You're saying it's either free will, or causality, and I disagree. I think it's elements of both.

I accept that maybe 99% of my actions at this point are not done by free will. It's all causality... I sleep when tired, eat when hungry, work when I need money, find something fun to do when bored, my life is a result of my genetic heritage and parental upbringing, etc. I have no problem with your argument on that account, and I'm sure we could both argue long and hard to support that argument if someone paid us to do so.

You say however you don't *believe* in first causes... ok, now we're getting somewhere.

>>>
But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.
>>>

Well then this is the point where I say that I don't *believe* in anything that's infinite and eternal, just like you don't *believe* in first causes ;)

Notice how at this point none of us can really prove anything? My "first cause" disproves your logic, and your "nature is infinite and eternal" disproves mine. You were first using pure logic, but now you're using belief to counter my argument...

That's my whole point, really. Your first premise in the OP argument is *potentially* flawed, hence your conclusion is also potentially flawed.

You can't *disprove* free will with logic if it requires a disbelief in a First Cause, hence, you have to accept the *possibility* of it existing :P My belief is that there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing.

I don't care either way, I'm happy to agree to disagree... I just like arguing with people who claim they have found "the truth", because I've yet to see anyone make a perfect argument :P
 Quoting: Sol Invictus


Fair enough. let's try this, then.

You are arguing that I am basing my dismissal of first cause on belief rather than logic. That's fine, because I did use the term "I believe." However, I do think I can support it logically.

Premise 1. If anything is not infinite and eternal, it is either caused or random.

Premise 2. You claim that First Cause is not caused or random.

Conclusion: First Cause is infinite and eternal.

Some people call this infinite and eternal first cause "God." I prefer to call it Nature, to avoid all of the usual "god baggage." In my view, The "god term" is uncessary and potentially misleading. However, I might be worthwhile to mention that I am on the Board of Directors of the Universal Pantheist Society.

[link to pantheist.net]

But yeah, we can agree to disagree. Reasonable people can do that. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 10:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well then I just wonder, for you personally, where do you get your moral code? Do you have a moral compass at all? The belief in a lack of free will would not make you a very good neighbor, I'm afraid.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


You're quite mistaken. I have a strong moral compass. I believe that harming others is wrong. I value the Golden Rule highly. My life experiences and personal views determine that I find compassion and morality important values in my own life. I am caused to care about the well-being of others.

What you really need to worry about are your neighbors who believe in free will, because they can harm you and then justify it in their own minds by deciding that you "deserved it."
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 10:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"If that's the case, then what force set these events in motion?

Chaos?"

Nature. If you're interested, have a look at this:

[link to www.futurephilosophy.org]
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 119604
Russian Federation
07/19/2006 10:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You are good. So our actions should be shaped by patterns and so can be predictable and they are!
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
United States
07/19/2006 11:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."

"Free will" is a very dangerous delusion. It is at the root of a great deal of evil. The sooner we realize this, the better.
 Quoting: Naturyl


... well... then restrain yourself and let me know how it working for ya.

And then too... by whose will are you presumpting your-self there with.... and if ya will?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 118505
United States
07/19/2006 11:05 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In reply to your answer, Natyrul, no, see now you're overstepping pure logic and going into assumptions...

>>>
According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.
>>>

That's not my definition of free will.

Be careful that you're not subconsciously using the old strawman tactic, creating a "convenient" definition of free will that is easy to dismiss. You're saying it's either free will, or causality, and I disagree. I think it's elements of both.

I accept that maybe 99% of my actions at this point are not done by free will. It's all causality... I sleep when tired, eat when hungry, work when I need money, find something fun to do when bored, my life is a result of my genetic heritage and parental upbringing, etc. I have no problem with your argument on that account, and I'm sure we could both argue long and hard to support that argument if someone paid us to do so.

You say however you don't *believe* in first causes... ok, now we're getting somewhere.

>>>
But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.
>>>

Well then this is the point where I say that I don't *believe* in anything that's infinite and eternal, just like you don't *believe* in first causes ;)

Notice how at this point none of us can really prove anything? My "first cause" disproves your logic, and your "nature is infinite and eternal" disproves mine. You were first using pure logic, but now you're using belief to counter my argument...

That's my whole point, really. Your first premise in the OP argument is *potentially* flawed, hence your conclusion is also potentially flawed.

You can't *disprove* free will with logic if it requires a disbelief in a First Cause, hence, you have to accept the *possibility* of it existing :P My belief is that there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing.

I don't care either way, I'm happy to agree to disagree... I just like arguing with people who claim they have found "the truth", because I've yet to see anyone make a perfect argument :P


Fair enough. let's try this, then.

You are arguing that I am basing my dismissal of first cause on belief rather than logic. That's fine, because I did use the term "I believe." However, I do think I can support it logically.

Premise 1. If anything is not infinite and eternal, it is either caused or random.

Premise 2. You claim that First Cause is not caused or random.

Conclusion: First Cause is infinite and eternal.

Some people call this infinite and eternal first cause "God." I prefer to call it Nature, to avoid all of the usual "god baggage." In my view, The "god term" is uncessary and potentially misleading. However, I might be worthwhile to mention that I am on the Board of Directors of the Universal Pantheist Society.

[link to pantheist.net]

But yeah, we can agree to disagree. Reasonable people can do that. :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


This belief is again invalid.

It's the typical "There is no darkness; Only light and its absence" logic. That logic is valid, in a sense, but darkness does exist.. because light itself is not infinite in a closed space(our universe).

This chaos, or Nature.. if you will, is the result of a highly complex order- Much like the U.S legal system. On it's surface, it appears that the President is all powerful; Chaotic and without true order. In truth, he is powerful only because the martial law that Lincoln imposed is still in effect today. The rest is just a show to keep the rest of us from revolting.

I believe that our reality, each instance; each action.. is the result of pre-engineered frames of instance, which is connected by conscious decsion. So, in effect, everything moves because we expect it to gyrate in a certain way. We created the laws of physics. We imprisoned our own selves this way. There is a way out of it, however, and it's the realization that we made these laws to begin with.

Thought, intangible concepts etc etc don't fall under the juristriction of cause and effect, because thought created cause and effect.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 11:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Very little of that makes any sense.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 118505
United States
07/19/2006 11:13 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Very little of that makes any sense.
 Quoting: Naturyl


That's because it isn't left brained logic.
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
United States
07/19/2006 11:22 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Again, events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not, they cannot be the result of free will, because free will requires that choice be the causal agent.

And, of course, the event we call "choice" itself either has a cause or it does not. Here we have a vicious regress which makes the traditional libertarian version of free will essentially meaningless.


Then, say, if one were to rob a bank- what caused such an event? His desire for money? Why would one desire money, if he isn't poor? Greed? Why be greedy? Greed stems from the belief that there isn't enough "stuff" to share with everyone. Why do people believe this? Because they believe our resources are limited. Why do they believe our resources are limited? Because they believe the World itself, and all of that within it, is finite. Now, tell me, why would they believe that? Because greedy people hoard of all the "stuff" for themselves.

Now why are these people greedy?

:clogic:

It's a never ending cycle. The only other option is choice. The cause and effect principle does not apply to all things. They do not apply to intangible concepts and thoughts. They do not apply to that which cannot be conceived.


You are introducing the circular logic. It is not part of my argument. The chain of causation which influences all non-random events stretches backward in time to the big bang. It does not loop back on itself, it simply proceeds from cause to event in the direction of time's arrow. Each event then becomes a cause which influences future events.

Think dominoes.


 Quoting: Naturyl


...as I said, lol, no personality... and so yes let's ideed think dominoes. Okay... we now have dominoes.... what???????... is there something other than 'just' dominoes then?
or...
...what do dominoes do?

oh... and then what supposedly influenced the big bang?
Or... do you also just get to pick your own starting point... and you know, like wherever ya may choose for to leap in?

How many directions does time have then?
or...
When is it not 'now'? And how many directions does 'now' expand into?


"Each event then becomes a cause which influences future events."

... and just as surely as all energy seeks them paths of least resistance... but why, and oh why... would energy ever do such a thang... can ya just image-(it)-in?
(or not)
A Traveler

User ID: 119589
United States
07/19/2006 11:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well, Let me introduce (lead in) you to the irrational world.

The world of logic makes me a little nauseous. I BELIEVE it is because Logic is an Anunnaki devised and controlled tool.

I believe it is part of the 'mind-control' techniques taught in 'higher' education to erase from awareness the experience of Inner Light and non-linear expressions of the True Creation.

I believe in devas and angels and Divine Will, my free will, the destruction of evil, oh...yes and fairies and I'm gonna call one now to come and put you all it your seats so you don't misbehave again.
My country is The Divine Mother ;

my people .... her children.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 11:27 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Gooderboy,

"Personality" does not consist of extruding all sorts of bizarre, meaningless statements which make no scientific or philosophical sense. That is called "ignorant ranting."
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 11:28 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well, Let me introduce (lead in) you to the irrational world.

The world of logic makes me a little nauseous. I BELIEVE it is because Logic is an Anunnaki devised and controlled tool.

I believe it is part of the 'mind-control' techniques taught in 'higher' education to erase from awareness the experience of Inner Light and non-linear expressions of the True Creation.

I believe in devas and angels and Divine Will, my free will, the destruction of evil, oh...yes and fairies and I'm gonna call one now to come and put you all it your seats so you don't misbehave again.
 Quoting: A Traveler

crazy meds
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
LittleBird

User ID: 119623
United States
07/19/2006 11:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
It seems to me that in the second syllogism, as well as in the former, the
first premise contains 2 terms in "EITHER 'caused' OR 'random,'" in which
case the syllogism could be considered illogical via 4th term fallacy.

However, regardless of whether or not the major premise is flawed (& all
semantics aside), this has certainly been an interesting thread, & I've not only
enjoyed the discussion, but very much look forward to more in the future.

Beam me up, Scotty! Beam me up soon!
Never mind, Scotty, cuz... "There is no spoon"
Kay
User ID: 72054
United States
07/19/2006 11:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Well then I just wonder, for you personally, where do you get your moral code? Do you have a moral compass at all? The belief in a lack of free will would not make you a very good neighbor, I'm afraid.


You're quite mistaken. I have a strong moral compass. I believe that harming others is wrong. I value the Golden Rule highly. My life experiences and personal views determine that I find compassion and morality important values in my own life. I am caused to care about the well-being of others.

What you really need to worry about are your neighbors who believe in free will, because they can harm you and then justify it in their own minds by deciding that you "deserved it."
 Quoting: Naturyl


Wow. You believe in a Creator. You believe in the Golden Rule. You believe in predeterminism.

Goodness. That all adds up to Calvinism. Christian Calvinism.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 99803
United States
07/19/2006 11:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to India's saint Ramana Maharshi and the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, everything is already set, so the trick is to let go and observe since you are not the doer.

According to some study I read about (sorry no link at the moment), the brain begins to start firing neurons to pick up a glass, etc. before you even think of picking it up. That one tripped me out!
Azoth777

User ID: 113992
United States
07/19/2006 11:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
I was reading from the source you refered me to. The EPR paradox added a little twist, but I also noted that the paradox never proved any flaws with quantum mechanics.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 11:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Wow. You believe in a Creator. You believe in the Golden Rule. You believe in predeterminism.

Goodness. That all adds up to Calvinism. Christian Calvinism.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


If I was a Christian, I'd probably be a Calvinist. I have a good friend who used to be one. But John Calvin was a miserable prick. And I don't accept supernaturalism in any form.

My "Creator" (Nature) has no personality except that of its individual sentient aspects. I don't believe in anthropomorphic deities.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/19/2006 11:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to India's saint Ramana Maharshi and the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, everything is already set, so the trick is to let go and observe since you are not the doer.

According to some study I read about (sorry no link at the moment), the brain begins to start firing neurons to pick up a glass, etc. before you even think of picking it up. That one tripped me out!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 99803


Ramana Marharshi was correct.

He was perhaps the greatest Advaita sage. I've studied many gurus in some depth, and most turn out to be ridiculous in one way or another. But Ramana Marharshi was the real deal. Kudos for mentioning him.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
User ID: 72054
United States
07/20/2006 12:00 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Wow. You believe in a Creator. You believe in the Golden Rule. You believe in predeterminism.

Goodness. That all adds up to Calvinism. Christian Calvinism.


If I was a Christian, I'd probably be a Calvinist. I have a good friend who used to be one. But John Calvin was a miserable prick. And I don't accept supernaturalism in any form.

My "Creator" (Nature) has no personality except that of its individual sentient aspects. I don't believe in anthropomorphic deities.
 Quoting: Naturyl



How does that saying go, 'if it smells like a skunk and it looks like a skunk, it probably is a skunk.'

Appropriate, I think!





GLP