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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 12:05 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The idea that I'm a Calvinist is hilarious.

laugh

If I were a Calvinist, I would believe that wealth is a sign of God's favor. Instead, I believe that it is usually a sign of greed, ignorance, and bad character. Calvinists would totally reject that view, as would most of you. Are you Calvinists?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Celador

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07/20/2006 12:09 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing."
--sol invictus
-----------------

Haha, disprove that, OP.

Don't force us to demonstrate it.

You may not be able to handle it...



muaha
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:11 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing."
-----------------

Haha, disprove that, OP.

Don't force us to demonstrate it.

You may not be able to handle it...



muaha
 Quoting: Celador


Disprove what? The fact that some people believe they have free will?

I'm sure they do believe that. They have been *caused* to believe it.

devil6
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
AA

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07/20/2006 12:15 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl



OP you are basing you entire arguement on the assumed premise 1 and 2 of your op. There is a premise 3, that a lot of physics has shown to not always hold universally true. What we consider "random" in the quantum world may simply seem random on some level because we have no learned to notice the pattern or how to interpret what we are "observing" correctly.

Point is Premise 1 is not entirely true and there for nullifies your entire basis of this thread. We do not have sufficient understanding of the univerise to say Premise 1 holds true with out a doubt.

Asside while human reaction may indeed be greatly influenced by an outside catalyst it does not always have to react in the predictable or supposed way. Being interested in meta-physics and philosphy as you are I am suprised you have decided to make such an arguement. Perhaps you need to go back to calculus and quantum mechanics and study probabilities and how a lot of "probabilities" can be affected by human thought and go against all statistical math.
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Kay
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07/20/2006 12:16 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The idea that I'm a Calvinist is hilarious.

laugh

If I were a Calvinist, I would believe that wealth is a sign of God's favor. Instead, I believe that it is usually a sign of greed, ignorance, and bad character. Calvinists would totally reject that view, as would most of you. Are you Calvinists?
 Quoting: Naturyl




And a Calvinist would tell you that the reason why you are NOT is because you have not been 'foreknown'. You have not been predetermined to have a priori knowledge of spirituality.

No. I would like to think I am closer to being Quaker. Realistically, I am probably closer to Reformed.

Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.
Celador

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07/20/2006 12:18 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Kay, who would you be if you had no
words or definitions ?




?
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Azoth777

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07/20/2006 12:23 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
:Fleeing mo:

I am sleepy, thanks again.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:24 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Greed, like any attitude, is caused primarily by childhood upbringing and environmental influences in adult life.

The corporate media is a big factor in promoting greed.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:29 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.



OP you are basing you entire arguement on the assumed premise 1 and 2 of your op. There is a premise 3, that a lot of physics has shown to not always hold universally true. What we consider "random" in the quantum world may simply seem random on some level because we have no learned to notice the pattern or how to interpret what we are "observing" correctly.

Point is Premise 1 is not entirely true and there for nullifies your entire basis of this thread. We do not have sufficient understanding of the univerise to say Premise 1 holds true with out a doubt.

Asside while human reaction may indeed be greatly influenced by an outside catalyst it does not always have to react in the predictable or supposed way. Being interested in meta-physics and philosphy as you are I am suprised you have decided to make such an arguement. Perhaps you need to go back to calculus and quantum mechanics and study probabilities and how a lot of "probabilities" can be affected by human thought and go against all statistical math.
 Quoting: AA


If quantum mechanics is orderly rather than random, this only demonstrates that it is fully consistent with causality rather than only partially so. Eliminating the concept of randomness does not invalidate the logical dichotomy - all actions are either caused or uncaused (random). If none are random, all are caused.

And unpredictable human behavior does not undermine causality, it simply suggests that in the human brain, the causal chain is quite complex. This is to be expected when we are dealing with the most sophisticated information processing (computing) device know to exist.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 12:31 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.


Greed, like any attitude, is caused primarily by childhood upbringing and environmental influences in adult life.

The corporate media is a big factor in promoting greed.
 Quoting: Naturyl



I'll say it again,

Then, say, if one were to rob a bank- what caused such an event? His desire for money? Why would one desire money, if he isn't poor? Greed? Why be greedy? Greed stems from the belief that there isn't enough "stuff" to share with everyone. Why do people believe this? Because they believe our resources are limited. Why do they believe our resources are limited? Because they believe the World itself, and all of that within it, is finite. Now, tell me, why would they believe that? Because greedy people hoard of all the "stuff" for themselves.

Now why are these people greedy?


:clogic:


It's a never ending cycle. The only other option is choice. The cause and effect principle does not apply to all things. They do not apply to intangible concepts and thoughts. They do not apply to that which cannot be conceived.
 Quoting: AC
Kay
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07/20/2006 12:32 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Kay, who would you be if you had no
words or definitions ?



?
 Quoting: Celador


Uh, I'm going to ignore that, because I am sure you didn't really mean to be so condescending.
Kay
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07/20/2006 12:34 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.


Greed, like any attitude, is caused primarily by childhood upbringing and environmental influences in adult life.

The corporate media is a big factor in promoting greed.
 Quoting: Naturyl



But then, I have a choice to watch it or not.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:34 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Trinity,

We really don't disagree too much. If one is determined to reprogram themselves, it is quite possible to do so. The decision to reprogram is caused, but that does not invalidate or lessen it. If we become convinced that our current worldview is flawed, our dissatisfaction with it can certainly cause us to abandon it in favor of a new perspective.

In fact, that's my whole reason for posting anything serious. I'm hoping to act as a cause for others to re-examine their own views and potentially exchange them for better ones, just as I myself was caused to do in the past.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:37 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.


Greed, like any attitude, is caused primarily by childhood upbringing and environmental influences in adult life.

The corporate media is a big factor in promoting greed.



But then, I have a choice to watch it or not.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Hehe... nah, you are caused to watch it or not. If you have been convinced that it is crap, you will not watch it. If you think that you might gain something by watching it, you will. It's just that simple, no?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
andy thomas
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07/20/2006 12:41 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
there is no choice... but chances can be - and are - taken

thus in unorthodox judaism 'we' might say that a person has no choice but to take their chances in life...
AA

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07/20/2006 12:41 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

My point concerning physics was that there are many un-forseen forces at work which we can not even grasp much less do we understand and to sum up every even in the universe to an equation would be quite presumptious of any human being.
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
the Questeon ?

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07/20/2006 12:41 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to India's saint Ramana Maharshi and the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, everything is already set, so the trick is to let go and observe since you are not the doer.

According to some study I read about (sorry no link at the moment), the brain begins to start firing neurons to pick up a glass, etc. before you even think of picking it up. That one tripped me out!


Ramana Marharshi was correct.

He was perhaps the greatest Advaita sage. I've studied many gurus in some depth, and most turn out to be ridiculous in one way or another. But Ramana Marharshi was the real deal. Kudos for mentioning him.
 Quoting: Naturyl


If you had studied him you perhaps would know he asked "who am I" to all thoughts that arise till you find the causeless... freedom ... your true identity.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Celador

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07/20/2006 12:43 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Kay, who would you be if you had no
words or definitions ?



?


Uh, I'm going to ignore that, because I am sure you didn't really mean to be so condescending.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


On the contrary, this is probably the most
sincere question anyone has asked you
in a long time.

When/why did we stop saying "I see you,
I hear you, I would like to get to
know you better."

(without killing each other)
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Chaiyah
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07/20/2006 12:43 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yeah, I know this.

But at least, the concept of Free Will is one we can visualize, even if we can't quite GET AT IT right now.



Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 12:44 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Gooderboy,

"Personality" does not consist of extruding all sorts of bizarre, meaningless statements which make no scientific or philosophical sense. That is called "ignorant ranting."
 Quoting: Naturyl


... lol, and again, I do say, no personality. Sad to see you are so easily threatened... gooder luck.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 12:46 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
If you had studied him you perhaps would know he asked "who am I" to all thoughts that arise till you find the causeless... freedom ... your true identity.
 Quoting: the Questeon ?


Yes, that's correct, but I'm not following your point. Are you saying self-inquiry is the key to the free will dilemma?

stir
the Questeon ?

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07/20/2006 12:50 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
If you had studied him you perhaps would know he asked "who am I" to all thoughts that arise till you find the causeless... freedom ... your true identity.


Yes, that's correct, but I'm not following your point. Are you saying self-inquiry is the key to the free will dilemma?

stir
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 99803



Well you find the thing outside of cause and effect not related to any past or subject to any condition.. from this freedom point would follow real choice
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:51 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.
 Quoting: AA


But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
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07/20/2006 12:52 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In fact, that's my whole reason for posting anything serious. I'm hoping to act as a cause for others to re-examine their own views and potentially exchange them for better ones, just as I myself was caused to do in the past.



yes I very much appreciate the post it is not a discussion that is had often enough around here

thank you for bringing it front and center...

this is the right time :>
 Quoting: ^TrInItY^



But there is a paradox here. If I could change the nature of my belief system, then it would not be pretermined, would it?
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 12:54 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
According to India's saint Ramana Maharshi and the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, everything is already set, so the trick is to let go and observe since you are not the doer.

According to some study I read about (sorry no link at the moment), the brain begins to start firing neurons to pick up a glass, etc. before you even think of picking it up. That one tripped me out!


Ramana Marharshi was correct.

He was perhaps the greatest Advaita sage. I've studied many gurus in some depth, and most turn out to be ridiculous in one way or another. But Ramana Marharshi was the real deal. Kudos for mentioning him.


If you had studied him you perhaps would know he asked "who am I" to all thoughts that arise till you find the causeless... freedom ... your true identity.
 Quoting: the Questeon ?


Uh, I did study him. Why be insulting and suggest that I lied about it?

And yes, I know all about the causeless, freedom, and my true identity. It is Nature. Oneness. Infinite unity.

But within Oneness, there is duality. And within duality, there is cause and effect. If you had studied Advaita, Zen, Taoism, Heraclitus, and Hegel, perhaps you would know this.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 12:54 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
In classical physics events have causes (meaning that their predicted probability of occuring is extremely high, almost a certainty), but then quantum mechanics was devised to deal with nature at a very small level, and causality may not apply in that realm, maybe you end up with probability functions. If the quantum world is somehow involved in thinking, then cause and effect might not be so obvious as you would like to think. In fact, one of the strange postulates of quantum mechanics is that the probability function does not take a discrete value until an observation is made. Hence we end up with the cat that is neither dead nor alive, or the photon that went through both slits at once. Nobody has ever been able to devise a philosopy that explains quantum mechanics and is widely accepted. Sooo, the idea of free will in not entirely a dead cat yet...

Events either have a cause, or they don't. If they do not have a cause, they are not the result of free will, because in free will, *choice* is the causal agent.

According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.

 Quoting: Naturyl
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 12:58 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"there's a part of me that's in touch with an element of "free will" while your belief is that there is no such thing."
-----------------

Haha, disprove that, OP.

Don't force us to demonstrate it.

You may not be able to handle it...



muaha


Disprove what? The fact that some people believe they have free will?

I'm sure they do believe that. They have been *caused* to believe it.

devil6
 Quoting: Naturyl


... and thus for you... you have been caused not to believe it, right?
Soooo then for you it's somehow okay to believe the way you are caused for to believe, but it's somehow not okay for any others to believe the way they are caused to believe... and if it does not fit in with the way you believe that you are caused to believe... right?

Now, which Golden Rule is that one again??
Omega

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07/20/2006 12:59 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Guys I am having some serious trouble here. Despite all these nice *theories* and deep discussions, I can advise you I have temporarily *overcome* the laws of physics in life threatening situations, and exploring the world in general.

First let me predicate this by stating I am a large part Cherokee Indian. I know. Big deal.


An example. I ride motorcycles. One time I got into big trouble, not through fault of mine, long story, but sure as shit I was fixin' to get killed. I WILLED when the event was going down NOW is NOT the time for me to die. No God, nothing. However I got outta this deal without a scratch, and yes, I DID overcome the laws of physics as we understand it. I willed it. People pulled over and freaked. Just one example. I DO NOT claim to have any special powers, LOL.. I just willed it.

So how does these types of events reconcile with your theories???? I am very curious........
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.

Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:00 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
If you had studied Advaita, Zen, Taoism, Heraclitus, and Hegel, perhaps you would know this.
 Quoting: Naturyl


lol

It did seem like an attack on you that came out of nowhere, that's why I was asking for clarification. I got the impression from your previous posts that you did indeed study Ramana Maharshi and similar philosophies.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:01 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Quantum mechanics introduces the possibility of randomness. Without quantum mechanics, all events would be caused, without exception. With quantum mechanics, all events at the classical (macroscopic) are either caused or random, with the vast majority being caused.

In neither case does "free will" apply.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.





GLP