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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Kay
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07/20/2006 01:01 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Doesn't 'greed' assume free will? I can't quite get by brain to believe that you could have one without the other.


Greed, like any attitude, is caused primarily by childhood upbringing and environmental influences in adult life.

The corporate media is a big factor in promoting greed.



But then, I have a choice to watch it or not.


Hehe... nah, you are caused to watch it or not. If you have been convinced that it is crap, you will not watch it. If you think that you might gain something by watching it, you will. It's just that simple, no?
 Quoting: Naturyl


But it is still my choice, isn't it?
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:01 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.
 Quoting: Naturyl


That doesn't explain why you choose doritos.

And please, don't try to say that "I was urged to eat doritos because I wanted to eat them". What if I wanted to eat shit, and yurned for it, and still ate doritos, then your logic is invalid.

Such logic is invalid, which is why you avoid my most of my arguments. You always resort to your already refuted arguments. Sad materialist.
the Questeon ?

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07/20/2006 01:02 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
If you had studied him you perhaps would know he asked "who am I" to all thoughts that arise till you find the causeless... freedom ... your true identity.

The key word is "perhaps" as in how many are fortunate enough to have achieved what he was talking about.

Namaste Naturyl, nothing personal intended since I don't really know you.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:02 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So how does these types of events reconcile with your theories???? I am very curious........
 Quoting: Omega


Is that you Superman? j/k

Perhaps the whole scenario was already predestined, as were your precise actions to keep from dying...
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:03 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Guys I am having some serious trouble here. Despite all these nice *theories* and deep discussions, I can advise you I have temporarily *overcome* the laws of physics in life threatening situations, and exploring the world in general.

First let me predicate this by stating I am a large part Cherokee Indian. I know. Big deal.


An example. I ride motorcycles. One time I got into big trouble, not through fault of mine, long story, but sure as shit I was fixin' to get killed. I WILLED when the event was going down NOW is NOT the time for me to die. No God, nothing. However I got outta this deal without a scratch, and yes, I DID overcome the laws of physics as we understand it. I willed it. People pulled over and freaked. Just one example. I DO NOT claim to have any special powers, LOL.. I just willed it.

So how does these types of events reconcile with your theories???? I am very curious........
 Quoting: Omega


Coincidence coupled with selective interpretation. In other words, you got lucky, and you choose to interpret as something more because that is what you want to believe. It's a very common psychological phenomena. Happens all the time.

Cool deal on the Cherokee thing. I'm 1/8.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:04 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
None of you people believe in the Law of Attraction?
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:04 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Guys I am having some serious trouble here. Despite all these nice *theories* and deep discussions, I can advise you I have temporarily *overcome* the laws of physics in life threatening situations, and exploring the world in general.

First let me predicate this by stating I am a large part Cherokee Indian. I know. Big deal.


An example. I ride motorcycles. One time I got into big trouble, not through fault of mine, long story, but sure as shit I was fixin' to get killed. I WILLED when the event was going down NOW is NOT the time for me to die. No God, nothing. However I got outta this deal without a scratch, and yes, I DID overcome the laws of physics as we understand it. I willed it. People pulled over and freaked. Just one example. I DO NOT claim to have any special powers, LOL.. I just willed it.

So how does these types of events reconcile with your theories???? I am very curious........


Coincidence coupled with selective interpretation. in other words, you got lucky, and you choose to interpret as something more because that is what you want to believe.

Cool deal on the Cherokke thing. I'm 1/8.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Alright, this guy is full of shit.

His idiotic logic, coupled with ignoring my valid refutations makes this guy a disinformationist.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:06 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But it is still my choice, isn't it?
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Sure, if you want to call something that you have no choice about a "choice." :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:06 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Like attracts like, it takes money to make money, if you want the lovin' you best put out?
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:07 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The key word is "perhaps" as in how many are fortunate enough to have achieved what he was talking about.

 Quoting: the Questeon ?


Serious question: How many do you really think had the experience of complete self-realization after being in his presence. I am willing to bet very few.

I'm still not fully convinced of all the westerners who were instantly enlightened after hanging out with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and Poonja. Although these two Indian students of Maharshi certainly are convincing.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:09 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.


That doesn't explain why you choose doritos.

And please, don't try to say that "I was urged to eat doritos because I wanted to eat them". What if I wanted to eat shit, and yurned for it, and still ate doritos, then your logic is invalid.

Such logic is invalid, which is why you avoid my most of my arguments. You always resort to your already refuted arguments. Sad materialist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


I choose Doritos because a thousand different factors cause me to choose them. There are always many different factors involved in any event. The fact that it is difficult to know exactly what those factors are does not mean that they do not exist.

You have refuted nothing, and the fact that you think you have is pretty funny. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:10 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
None of you people believe in the Law of Attraction?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119648


It's funny because I'm torn between LOA and philosophies like Advaita Vedanta and Taoism.

Sometimes I believe I have seen proof of LOA, but it isn't enough for me. Confusing it is...
AA

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07/20/2006 01:10 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.
 Quoting: Naturyl



Naturyl I could not have described free will any better. I completely disagree with your assesment. The hunger is merely a catalyst. There is no "force" that made you eat doritos nor is there any force that made me choose to eat them now as opposed to 30 seconds from now or wether I even ate doritos or anything at all.

When you push a box it can not "choose" wether or not it will move. You apply enough force and it will move in the direction of the applied force. The box can not decide when it will move or how fast or in what direction or if it even will move. Not so with human thought. All be it, it may be greatly influenced by outside persuasion, none the less there is nothing that "forces" a thought.

I could go outside and pick up a rock or do an infinite number of other things that have no reason or influence other than I can if I want to. That is called free will.
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 01:11 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Guys I am having some serious trouble here. Despite all these nice *theories* and deep discussions, I can advise you I have temporarily *overcome* the laws of physics in life threatening situations, and exploring the world in general.

First let me predicate this by stating I am a large part Cherokee Indian. I know. Big deal.


An example. I ride motorcycles. One time I got into big trouble, not through fault of mine, long story, but sure as shit I was fixin' to get killed. I WILLED when the event was going down NOW is NOT the time for me to die. No God, nothing. However I got outta this deal without a scratch, and yes, I DID overcome the laws of physics as we understand it. I willed it. People pulled over and freaked. Just one example. I DO NOT claim to have any special powers, LOL.. I just willed it.

So how does these types of events reconcile with your theories???? I am very curious........


Coincidence coupled with selective interpretation. in other words, you got lucky, and you choose to interpret as something more because that is what you want to believe.

Cool deal on the Cherokke thing. I'm 1/8.


Alright, this guy is full of shit.

His idiotic logic, coupled with ignoring my valid refutations makes this guy a disinformationist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


lol, now you do know that you are being 'caused' to believe that, and don't ya now? Or maybe you are just being randomly picked out of the ol' 'lucky' bin... and well, it could also be co-incidental ya be 'caused' to think that a'way as well, lol??????????
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:11 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Alright, this guy is full of shit.

His idiotic logic, coupled with ignoring my valid refutations makes this guy a disinformationist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


laugh
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:12 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Alright, this guy is full of shit.

His idiotic logic, coupled with ignoring my valid refutations makes this guy a disinformationist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


Where do you get that from? People sure do throw the d-word around here a alot.
Omega

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07/20/2006 01:12 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Thank you all for the input. I'll go with what I know.....

Thanks Trinity.

I WILL add when I do not maintain awareness in this regard I revert back to the norm....which means shit happens....without all the long winded discussions on this thread.

Even though OP's and Sol's input is to be applauded.....
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
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Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.

Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice.
the Questeon ?

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07/20/2006 01:13 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The key word is "perhaps" as in how many are fortunate enough to have achieved what he was talking about.



Serious question: How many do you really think had the experience of complete self-realization after being in his presence. I am willing to bet very few.

I'm still not fully convinced of all the westerners who were instantly enlightened after hanging out with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and Poonja. Although these two Indian students of Maharshi certainly are convincing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 99803


Hey I'm with you there bro.. I'm dubious too.
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is
still a vote for evil

"those that don't ask questions have no options"

one thousand mega-wats? of power
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:13 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.


That doesn't explain why you choose doritos.

And please, don't try to say that "I was urged to eat doritos because I wanted to eat them". What if I wanted to eat shit, and yurned for it, and still ate doritos, then your logic is invalid.

Such logic is invalid, which is why you avoid my most of my arguments. You always resort to your already refuted arguments. Sad materialist.


I choose Doritos because a thousand different factors cause me to choose them. There are always many different factors involved in any event. The fact that it is difficult to know exactly what those factors are does not mean that they do not exist.

You have refuted nothing, and the fact that you think you have is pretty funny. :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


You're arguements have been dealt with.

Your logic deals with probability and inclinations, not facts. So long as I can look the other way; so long as I decside which path to take, regardless of inclination and probable future, the choice is mine to make, noob.
Kay
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07/20/2006 01:14 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But it is still my choice, isn't it?


Sure, if you want to call something that you have no choice about a "choice." :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


Funny, it seems to me that I make choices all day long.

Sometimes, I hunger and want to eat and say 'no' to myself because I want to be slim. I prefer to stir my husband.

Sometimes, I walk away from the computer because I must perform my duties.

Sometimes, I keep my mouth shut because I don't want to start an argument with my daughter.

Sometimes, I force myself to get out of bed instead of sleep, not to do unto others as they would have me do unto them, but because I want to honor God and go to church.

And for some reason, these are all things I do for DUTY, not because of the golden rule.

But because I choose to be a better human being today than I was yesterday.
Kay
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07/20/2006 01:16 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Thank you all for the input. I'll go with what I know.....

Thanks Trinity.

I WILL add when I do not maintain awareness in this regard I revert back to the norm....which means shit happens....without all the long winded discussions on this thread.

Even though OP's and Sol's input is to be applauded.....
 Quoting: Omega



Yes, which was my chief problem with the theory: chaos always finds a way into the equation, right when you think you have everything figured out!
AA

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07/20/2006 01:16 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
lmao... "noob"

Haven't heard that one in a while. chuckle
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:17 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.



Naturyl I could not have described free will any better. I completely disagree with your assesment. The hunger is merely a catalyst. There is no "force" that made you eat doritos nor is there any force that made me choose to eat them now as opposed to 30 seconds from now or wether I even ate doritos or anything at all.

When you push a box it can not "choose" wether or not it will move. You apply enough force and it will move in the direction of the applied force. Not so with human thought. All be it, it may be greatly influenced by outside persuasion, none the less there is nothing that "forces" a thought.

I could go outside and pick up a rock or do an infinite number of other things that have no reason or influence other than I can if I want to. That is called free will.
 Quoting: AA


You aren't making an argument, you are just asserting what you wish to be true. Thoughts are events, and all events are either caused or random. There is no place for "free will." It is a delusion.

Again, thoughts are events. Events either have a cause or they do not. If they do not have a cause, they are not consistent with free will, because free will requires that intentional choice be the cause.

And intentional choice, of course, is an event, which must either be random or caused. And so on and so on, all the way back.

Free will is what most people want to believe (because they don't realize that determinism is much better), but it's a fiction nonetheless. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Want to demonstrate to yourself that determinism is true? Try going 24 hours without saying or thinking the word "because." :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 01:17 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Naturyl yes... but if some events are "caused" by human thought, then that being the cause as opposed to the reaction denotes free-will.

But human thought is caused. You can decide to eat some Doritos, but that decision is caused by your hunger, which is caused by your need to survive, which is caused by evolution, which is caused by the laws of physics, which are caused by the big bang, which is caused by Nature. It all comes back to that.



Naturyl I could not have described free will any better. I completely disagree with your assesment. The hunger is merely a catalyst. There is no "force" that made you eat doritos nor is there any force that made me choose to eat them now as opposed to 30 seconds from now or wether I even ate doritos or anything at all.

When you push a box it can not "choose" wether or not it will move. You apply enough force and it will move in the direction of the applied force. Not so with human thought. All be it, it may be greatly influenced by outside persuasion, none the less there is nothing that "forces" a thought.

I could go outside and pick up a rock or do an infinite number of other things that have no reason or influence other than I can if I want to. That is called free will.
 Quoting: AA


... and thank you too. So dominoes are really and truly just dominoes... and they really don't do anything a'tall... and that is until some one comes along and chooses, and of their very own free will, for to do what every they may choose to do with them dominoes. Gee... who'd a'ever thought...
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:20 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But it is still my choice, isn't it?


Sure, if you want to call something that you have no choice about a "choice." :)


Funny, it seems to me that I make choices all day long.

Sometimes, I hunger and want to eat and say 'no' to myself because I want to be slim. I prefer to stir my husband.

Sometimes, I walk away from the computer because I must perform my duties.

Sometimes, I keep my mouth shut because I don't want to start an argument with my daughter.

Sometimes, I force myself to get out of bed instead of sleep, not to do unto others as they would have me do unto them, but because I want to honor God and go to church.

And for some reason, these are all things I do for DUTY, not because of the golden rule.

But because I choose to be a better human being today than I was yesterday.
 Quoting: Kay 72054



I'm willing to bet that you're on auto-pilot for most of your daily routine just like the rest of us.

I try my best everyday to keep conscious and aware of my physical movements, my choices, the welling up of emotions, and I still constantly slip into trance and find myself just doing without conscious thought. Even a simple act like eating Doritos..

Gurdjieff had some good things to say in that respect.

Hey, thanks Naturyl. Killer thread!
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 01:20 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Wishing doesn't make it so."

... exsqueeze me, but I do beg to differ with you... and cuz yes, it does make it so.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:20 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But it is still my choice, isn't it?


Sure, if you want to call something that you have no choice about a "choice." :)


Funny, it seems to me that I make choices all day long.

Sometimes, I hunger and want to eat and say 'no' to myself because I want to be slim. I prefer to stir my husband.

Sometimes, I walk away from the computer because I must perform my duties.

Sometimes, I keep my mouth shut because I don't want to start an argument with my daughter.

Sometimes, I force myself to get out of bed instead of sleep, not to do unto others as they would have me do unto them, but because I want to honor God and go to church.

And for some reason, these are all things I do for DUTY, not because of the golden rule.

But because I choose to be a better human being today than I was yesterday.
 Quoting: Kay 72054


Yeah, I agree, it seems like we make choices all the time. It is human nature to imagine that we are calling the shots.

But we don't. It's all dictated by causal factors, or perhaps on extremely rare occassions, randomly generated on the spot. In neither case are we the "doers."

Nature is the only doer. We do not choose, we are chosen through. We are agents of choice, not the orginators of it. Nature is the only creator and the only cause.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
AA

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07/20/2006 01:22 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"And intentional choice, of course, is an event, which must either be random or caused. And so on and so on, all the way back."


I am not sure you grasp the concept between influence and cause. Nothing at all "forces" any thought you have. It can only be influenced if you let it, which is rhetorical for free will.

None the less Naturyl, I must go to bed. I will agree to disagree with you and look forward to many more discussions with you in the future. Sleep well my friend.
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:23 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
chuckle
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:24 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
But it is still my choice, isn't it?


Sure, if you want to call something that you have no choice about a "choice." :)


Funny, it seems to me that I make choices all day long.

Sometimes, I hunger and want to eat and say 'no' to myself because I want to be slim. I prefer to stir my husband.

Sometimes, I walk away from the computer because I must perform my duties.

Sometimes, I keep my mouth shut because I don't want to start an argument with my daughter.

Sometimes, I force myself to get out of bed instead of sleep, not to do unto others as they would have me do unto them, but because I want to honor God and go to church.

And for some reason, these are all things I do for DUTY, not because of the golden rule.

But because I choose to be a better human being today than I was yesterday.


Yeah, I agree, it seems like we make choices all the time. It is human nature to imagine that we are calling the shots.

But we don't. It's all dictated by causal factors, or perhaps on extremely rare occassions, randomly generated on the spot. In neither case are we the "doers."

Nature is the only doer. We do not choose, we are chosen through.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Some may call it nature, but if it is the Creator, then some of us would call it God. And if we are predetermined, then there are some of us who will know that Creator, just as we have been foreknown.





GLP