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Free Will is a Delusion

 
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 01:24 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Wishing doesn't make it so."

... exsqueeze me, but I do beg to differ with you... and cuz yes, it does make it so.
 Quoting: gooderboy


Then wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Won the lottery yet?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
AA

User ID: 119157
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07/20/2006 01:24 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yes and Gooderboy is right. "Wishing" does make it so." That has been proven in physics and psychological tests all over the world. The power of human thought can beat out statistical probability quite often.
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:24 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yeah, I agree, it seems like we make choices all the time. It is human nature to imagine that we are calling the shots.

But we don't. It's all dictated by causal factors, or perhaps on extremely rare occassions, randomly generated on the spot. In neither case are we the "doers."

Nature is the only doer. We do not choose, we are chosen through.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Some of the best experiences I have had is with a Tantra technique called Yoga Nidra (more a state than technique). Only in this state did I feel there was no longer a "doer". It is like a state of nothingess and peace. Well, in that state I guess I basically think and do nothing. lol
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 01:25 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"I'm willing to bet that you're on auto-pilot for most of your daily routine just like the rest of us.

I try my best everyday to keep conscious and aware of my physical movements, my choices, the welling up of emotions, and I still constantly slip into trance and find myself just doing without conscious thought. Even a simple act like eating Doritos..

Gurdjieff had some good things to say in that respect.

Hey, thanks Naturyl. Killer thread!"

... you are kidding right... how do you 'space out' like that... how do you do it? And too... where do you go when you check out? Do you have like any bionic, or like Borg parts... or something like that? Are you on any kind of meds maybe? How do you do it??
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:25 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"And intentional choice, of course, is an event, which must either be random or caused. And so on and so on, all the way back."


I am not sure you grasp the concept between influence and cause. Nothing at all "forces" any thought you have. It can only be influenced if you let it, which is rhetorical for free will.

None the less Naturyl, I must go to bed. I will agree to disagree with you and look forward to many more discussions with you in the future. Sleep well my friend.
 Quoting: AA


You are right, and he is wrong. Simple.

Ignore real logic all you want, OP. The truth is, you allow yourself be influenced by these seemingly "random" factors- Completely ignorant of your own power of these influences. You allow them to control you, and that's good. You're just prey for 4D beings, and in a way, I hope they have a field day manipulating you.

Thanks.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 01:25 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Some may call it nature, but if it is the Creator, then some of us would call it God. And if we are predetermined, then there are some of us who will know that Creator, just as we have been foreknown.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72054


Fine with me. I'm a pantheist, after all. :)

I don't use the "god" term simply because of all the ideological baggage. "Nature" is a better term for Nature. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 01:27 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You are right, and he is wrong. Simple.

Ignore real logic all you want, OP. The truth is, you allow yourself be influenced by these seemingly "random" factors- Completely ignorant of your own power of these influences. You allow them to control you, and that's good. You're just prey for 4D beings, and in a way, I hope they have a field day manipulating you.

Thanks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 118505


Yeah, 4-dimensional beings. That's very convincing.

meds crazy

BTW, you are a 4-dimensional being. Perhaps you meant 5-dimensional?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
AA

User ID: 119157
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07/20/2006 01:27 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Proof of "wishing" making it so... The power of human thought over other the universe....


[link to www.life-enthusiast.com]
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
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07/20/2006 01:28 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Wishing doesn't make it so."

... exsqueeze me, but I do beg to differ with you... and cuz yes, it does make it so.


Then wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Won the lottery yet?
 Quoting: Naturyl


... no and no... and cuz that would be your wish for you... not mine for me, ya silly.

... thought you weren't into them riches... tsk and tsk dear boy, you slip.

For me, it goes more like this, lol, healthy, well-thy, and sometimes wise even.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 01:29 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yes and Gooderboy is right. "Wishing" does make it so." That has been proven in physics and psychological tests all over the world. The power of human thought can beat out statistical probability quite often.
 Quoting: AA


Okay. Same question, then. Won the lottery yet? :)

Goodnight, and thanks for the discussion.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
AA

User ID: 119157
United States
07/20/2006 01:29 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Oh and umm there many calculations that suggest there are more than 4 dimensions which of course since we are part of the universe means we are all "4D beings."
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
AA

User ID: 119157
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07/20/2006 01:30 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yes and Gooderboy is right. "Wishing" does make it so." That has been proven in physics and psychological tests all over the world. The power of human thought can beat out statistical probability quite often.


Okay. Same question, then. Won the lottery yet? :)

Goodnight, and thanks for the discussion.
 Quoting: Naturyl



See my link above... Goodnight! =)
"Pray, v:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:30 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
You are right, and he is wrong. Simple.

Ignore real logic all you want, OP. The truth is, you allow yourself be influenced by these seemingly "random" factors- Completely ignorant of your own power of these influences. You allow them to control you, and that's good. You're just prey for 4D beings, and in a way, I hope they have a field day manipulating you.

Thanks.


Yeah, 4-dimensional beings. That's very convincing.

meds crazy

BTW, you are a 4-dimensional being. Perhaps you meant 5-dimensional?
 Quoting: Naturyl


And yet you ignored my point, yet again. He's just a disinformationist. Don't give him anymore energy people. Let the little vamp have his materialist logic and be done with it.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:30 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
... you are kidding right... how do you 'space out' like that... how do you do it? And too... where do you go when you check out? Do you have like any bionic, or like Borg parts... or something like that? Are you on any kind of meds maybe? How do you do it??
 Quoting: gooderboy


Ha! You must be joking.

Let me give you a typical example. When you drive a car, are you constantly aware of the feel of the steering wheel in your hands, the temperature of the air on your skin, the sounds of other cars passing by, or are you usually thinking of other things while your subconscious takes over your familiar route?

Or perhaps you are one of those people who really believes you are conscious all the time.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:31 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Yes and Gooderboy is right. "Wishing" does make it so." That has been proven in physics and psychological tests all over the world. The power of human thought can beat out statistical probability quite often.


Okay. Same question, then. Won the lottery yet? :)

Goodnight, and thanks for the discussion.
 Quoting: Naturyl

If you desire the lottery then you will keep on desiring the lottery...wish granted.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/20/2006 01:31 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Wishing doesn't make it so."

... exsqueeze me, but I do beg to differ with you... and cuz yes, it does make it so.


Then wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Won the lottery yet?


... no and no... and cuz that would be your wish for you... not mine for me, ya silly.

... thought you weren't into them riches... tsk and tsk dear boy, you slip.

For me, it goes more like this, lol, healthy, well-thy, and sometimes wise even.
 Quoting: gooderboy


Yeah, I figured that would be your excuse. "I haven't won the lottery because I don't really want to."

laugh

Okay, how about world peace? A cure for cancer? Help for starving children? Don't want those either, right?
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
United States
07/20/2006 01:34 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Some may call it nature, but if it is the Creator, then some of us would call it God. And if we are predetermined, then there are some of us who will know that Creator, just as we have been foreknown.


Fine with me. I'm a pantheist, after all. :)

I don't use the "god" term simply because of all the ideological baggage. "Nature" is a better term for Nature. :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


... no and no, lol, more like the Borg.... and, I am sorry but you have very very little (as in shallow) understanding of me Ma Nature as well.... grok?

..."ideological baggage"... and so what... your course is thusly being caused by your take on what you consider to be other peoples so called ideological baggage???????... and then, what kinda 'caused' baggage do ya call that little 'trip'?
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
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07/20/2006 01:37 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
As for dimensions, according to string theory, we are all 10-D beings.

[link to www.tenthdimension.com]

And guess what? That still doesn't mean we get to fly, date supermodels on demand, win the lottery, learn to tie our shoes effortlessly, or anything else. Even 999 dimensions do not mean that wishing makes it so.

The best we can do is co-create to a limited extent, as we are caused to, and in conjunction with all other aspects of Nature.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Naturyl  (OP)

User ID: 118783
United States
07/20/2006 01:39 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Some may call it nature, but if it is the Creator, then some of us would call it God. And if we are predetermined, then there are some of us who will know that Creator, just as we have been foreknown.


Fine with me. I'm a pantheist, after all. :)

I don't use the "god" term simply because of all the ideological baggage. "Nature" is a better term for Nature. :)


... no and no, lol, more like the Borg.... and, I am sorry but you have very very little (as in shallow) understanding of me Ma Nature as well.... grok?

..."ideological baggage"... and so what... your course is thusly being caused by your take on what you consider to be other peoples so called ideological baggage???????... and then, what kinda 'caused' baggage do ya call that little 'trip'?
 Quoting: gooderboy


You aren't too bright. I'm tempted to list my credentials, but why bother? You clearly can't be argued with. No matter what I say, you will respond with some kind of half-baked objection.

Congratulations, you win. And by "you win," I mean you are ignored. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Kay
User ID: 72054
United States
07/20/2006 01:44 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Do you mind if I ask you why you are here at this forum? What is your purpose. Surely you have a limited amount of time, and there are many hecklers here.

Just curious. Who are you and why are you here?
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
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07/20/2006 01:48 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"Wishing doesn't make it so."

... exsqueeze me, but I do beg to differ with you... and cuz yes, it does make it so.


Then wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Won the lottery yet?


... no and no... and cuz that would be your wish for you... not mine for me, ya silly.

... thought you weren't into them riches... tsk and tsk dear boy, you slip.

For me, it goes more like this, lol, healthy, well-thy, and sometimes wise even.

 Quoting: Naturyl




"Yeah, I figured that would be your excuse. "I haven't won the lottery because I don't really want to."

...oh, lol, and now you're being 'caused' for to write my dialogue for me even, and as well as dictate how I may make my wishes for me... oddly 'causal', ain't it now...lol?

or... maybe, just maybe... since you're the one who has a money trip a'goin' on for ya... you somehow think that everybody else is supposed to as well... and then... rather than asking, you cop to playing it safe by trying to write their script for them, and according to you self-servicing outcomes... hmmmm... got it... now I see that whole 'caused'/random crap trip o'yours.

you...
Okay, how about world peace? A cure for cancer? Help for starving children? Don't want those either, right?

... how about em? Do you really believe, and in your heart... that we, collectively speaking, have learned about them thingies? I mean just look at the lengths you go to to keep you separated/distanced from yourself... and really, isn't that what all them above thingies really all about?
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:49 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl


How about this:

Human actions are caused by free will.
Free will is caused by the passion or fire of the human soul. The human soul is caused by God. God is beyond cause.
gooderboy

User ID: 76997
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07/20/2006 01:50 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Some may call it nature, but if it is the Creator, then some of us would call it God. And if we are predetermined, then there are some of us who will know that Creator, just as we have been foreknown.


Fine with me. I'm a pantheist, after all. :)

I don't use the "god" term simply because of all the ideological baggage. "Nature" is a better term for Nature. :)


... no and no, lol, more like the Borg.... and, I am sorry but you have very very little (as in shallow) understanding of me Ma Nature as well.... grok?

..."ideological baggage"... and so what... your course is thusly being caused by your take on what you consider to be other peoples so called ideological baggage???????... and then, what kinda 'caused' baggage do ya call that little 'trip'?


You aren't too bright. I'm tempted to list my credentials, but why bother? You clearly can't be argued with. No matter what I say, you will respond with some kind of half-baked objection.

Congratulations, you win. And by "you win," I mean you are ignored. :)
 Quoting: Naturyl


and again.... sorry you scare so very very easily. Get over yourself... and please.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:50 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Do you mind if I ask you why you are here at this forum? What is your purpose. Surely you have a limited amount of time, and there are many hecklers here.

Just curious. Who are you and why are you here?
 Quoting: Kay 72054


I'm here to pass the time, mostly. If I can broaden a few people's horizons in the process, all the better.

And yes, there are a lot of hecklers here. But I don't mind that too much, as it is to be expected. These ideas are not popular, nor are they easy to accept. They go against the ego and human nature. Determinism is a tough pill for most people to swallow.

If i get too tired of the hecklers, I'll move on to another topic. I'm "free" to do that, after all. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:51 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
The result of how we act on the spark or passion of the soul, is free will.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 01:52 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
and again.... sorry you scare so very very easily. Get over yourself... and please.
 Quoting: gooderboy


Take your own advice. Sorry you feel the need to insult and belittle others. Get over yourself and stop being scared of new ideas.

potkettle
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 01:56 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This was already explained

now theres 8 pages of bullshit


its a very simple concept. YOU DONT CONTROL YOUR NEURONS AND THOUGHTS. ITS ALL CAUSUAL AND RANDOM. so SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY


SERIOUSLY, SHU THE FUCK UP BECAUSE YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID YOU ANNOY ME WITH YOUR RETARDATION (addressed to GLP users)
Kay
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07/20/2006 02:01 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
and again.... sorry you scare so very very easily. Get over yourself... and please.


Take your own advice. Sorry you feel the need to insult and belittle others. Get over yourself and stop being scared of new ideas.

potkettle
 Quoting: Naturyl


LOL, I don't know if I'd call them 'new'.

They tried to teach me this in church once, and I thought, 'ferget abou' it!'
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 02:03 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
can you tell me how you choose to type the words above? oh you thought of it? where did those thoughts come from, and how did you choose those thoughts?

whats that you say, you dont know? o i guess than means you have no choose you fuckin dumb idiot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549


Your thoughts arise from the stillness (pool) of the mind. That stillness is the slab of maleable marble that is constantly molded and carved into thoughts, concepts, or ideas by your free will. Thoughts don't just pop up by themselves. This pool or reservoir is the creator of all thoughts, and can only be accessed by free will. It is the free will that shapes your thoughts into any form in which you choose to represent them.

Sometimes thoughts seem to just popup though for no reason. This is due to the subconscious mind's meddling. It is an involuntary thought-provoking mechanism of the mind, that helps to guide you back onto the right path. But these days, the subconscious has been taken over by subliminal messages and NLP attacks. Now our subconscious is giving us ideas that we shouldn't be getting at all. Our free will has been compromised in this sense, but essentially we are still in control.
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 02:05 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
This was already explained

now theres 8 pages of bullshit


its a very simple concept. YOU DONT CONTROL YOUR NEURONS AND THOUGHTS. ITS ALL CAUSUAL AND RANDOM. so SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY


SERIOUSLY, SHU THE FUCK UP BECAUSE YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID YOU ANNOY ME WITH YOUR RETARDATION (addressed to GLP users)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549



This logic is flawed beyond belief. What proof is there that "neurons" cause thoughts and actions?

It completely ignores the ancient concept of a soul and inner light. Where your petty explainations fail, the olden concepts hold true. The concept of a soul/thought connection is not circular in any sense, but the body does not think. The brain itself does not think. The body does not feel, our souls feel what our bodies relay.





GLP