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Free Will is a Delusion

 
drowden

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07/20/2006 10:52 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Dan, meet gooderboy. His ignorance is exceeded only by his arrogance.

I'd say he's a quite a unique character, but sadly, he's not.
 Quoting: Naturyl


Yeah, I see that, but I have to go out so I'll have to deal with both things later...
Zaphod Beeblbrox
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07/20/2006 10:54 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion


Where did you acquire your definition of thought?
 Quoting: Azoth777


out of nothing.
Azoth777

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07/20/2006 10:57 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
the concept of free will came from God

so, it is very much apropos to this discussion
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


Prove God, with facts
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 10:57 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Dan, meet gooderboy. His ignorance is exceeded only by his arrogance.

I'd say he's a quite a unique character, but sadly, he's not.
 Quoting: Naturyl


... aw, lol, poor baby... still threatened are ya now? And just remember, your toppling dominoes caused ya to e-vent your way for you too. How convenient for you... eh?
Celador

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07/20/2006 11:01 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"You and me both, Celador..."


kiss

I have no idea what *made* me do that !


lol
In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine
Azoth777

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07/20/2006 11:02 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
i guess all of our words will have to be censored
and anything remotely connected to freedom and choice will have to be excised from our vocabulary
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


I am just saying if using the God approach, you should be able to prove God as well.
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 11:06 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Dan, meet gooderboy. His ignorance is exceeded only by his arrogance.

I'd say he's a quite a unique character, but sadly, he's not.


Yeah, I see that, but I have to go out so I'll have to deal with both things later...
 Quoting: drowden


... oh, you do do ya? Well, lol, I'd say that if'n ya can't see just how very shoddy that thar analogy o'yours is... then your eyes just may be decieving you. Try instead, reaching out a bit with your feelings... and you'll find me less than a hop, skip, and a thought a way. Check it out...
(and no, lol, you don't 'have to' do anything, and maybe save those things you may choose to be-cause yourself upon.... no?)
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 11:08 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
i guess all of our words will have to be censored
and anything remotely connected to freedom and choice will have to be excised from our vocabulary


I am just saying if using the God approach, you should be able to prove God as well.
 Quoting: Azoth777


... all that is simply is... for where is 'is' not?
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 11:09 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
'Our Charmed Selves'

Each life is charmed yours, and everyone else's, and you must never forget it. The instant you're born, you're charmed, because life itself is a charm. Each being is charmed into existence in whatever reality it finds itself, and given everything it needs to operate in the environment.

Your body is charmed, too: It's a magic part of everything else; springing up from all the things you see about you. Atoms and molecules go singing through the miraculous air, forming themselves into rocks and trees and dogs and cats and people, too. You 'are' magic. You charm the air so that it thickens into your body wherever you are. When you want to move, you think the air ahead of you into becoming your body, and the air behind you then stops being your body . . . all very magical indeed. You move your arm just one inch to the right, and the air to the left stops being part of your arm. But it happens so quickly, your snatching of the air and making it turn into your body, that you never notice it at all, and take it quite for granted. Which is why it works so well, you see.

But your life is charmed. And there is a secret, a very simple
one. Really, it's not a secret. But you have to remember that your
life is charmed. People who forget can't use their magic nearly as well as they did before, and they have a tendency to get angry at those who can. So, often, they pretend that no magic exists at all. Then they evolve great philosophies to prove it, which is itself magical, of course. But they can't see that, because they're so convinced that magic doesn't exist. And many people forget how simple and natural magic is, so they evolve long theories, and methods that are supposed to make it work, when you and I now, and everyone else 'really' knows, that magic happens by itself, because that's what magic is.

But people are also very creative . . . magic again! . . . so they make up gods of this and that, and realms and spheres, and maps to chart out in advance where magic might be taking them so they don't get surprised, which is silly because magic goes where it wants to, which is everywhere. And when you try to map it out in advance, you really cut yourself short. Because a characteristic of magic is that it automatically turns into whatever you want it to be. You create your own reality with it, so whatever maps you make are real. And if you forget what magic is, then you're liable to think that your map is the only real one, and all the others are false. You get in a terrible bind, fighting over which way is right, which road or map, while all the time magic is what makes the maps. And a great variety of maps can appear in the twinkling of an eye!

Particularly when you grow up, many people will tell you that there is no magic. If you believe them, then you'll forget too, and you'll act as if you aren't charmed and bring un-magic into your life . . . which is magic too, you see, but magic that doesn't know itself. Then you'll create things that go with un-magic, like sorrow or sickness, and you'll have to deal with them at that level until you remember that your life is charmed again.
So in the meantime you'll feel nasty and unloved and angry, way
beyond what is natural, and have to worry about sad or fearful emotions and what to do with them, when magically, you'd know: They'd just come and go exuberantly like summer storms. But anger and hate and sorrow are all magic too, and left alone, they'd lead you back to the knowledge that you life is charmed. Because hate is love looking for itself everyplace but where love is; and love is what you feel for yourself when you know that you are where
you're supposed to be in the universe, and that you're lovely just
because you are, and, of course, charmed.

Not only that, but you're also the magic maker; the inner living
part of you that forms your life. But consciously you have to know
this, accept and acknowledge it, and let the magic of yourself happen. That way, you're directing the magic of yourself. But it's even more fun just to let the magic happen as it wants to, because it's your magic, and that way it keeps telling you more and more
about your magical self. Then the magic flows through you with
unimpeded delight. If you keep saying, "I want it this way and no
other," then you may limiting your physical experience, because there's no doubt that your inner magical self knows more about your potentials than you do. And it will tell you quite clearly, if you only listen. To many adults, all this sounds too simple and un-intellectual, because unfortunately many of them think that the mind is just something to say "no" with, and to keep out magic. Nothing could be further from the truth. But if you use your mind to say no to magic, then it's like closing doors to our own charmed existence, and refusing to use the full power of your life.

Everyone works with magic, whether they realize it or not. Beliefs
are magic, too, you see. Many people think that one particular belief makes everything right; or makes magic happen. And as long as they believe that, they're all right for a while. But if they start doubting that belief, and don't find another one to replace it, then they think that they've lost their magic, or that life has. Instead, of course, the magic is there all along.

But people love systems, so they use all kinds of beliefs . . some
of them quite handy . . . as aids. And they travel through belief
systems, sometimes going to considerable trouble to do so, when all they really have to remember is that they are magic themselves, and their lives are charmed without their having to do anything about it at all.

And your conscious mind is magic, too. Its workings are mysterious
and complicated, and simple and clear at once, like air is. Your
conscious mind looks out through your eyes, and knows parcels of air as its body, and smiles through cheeks and skin the same way the the moon shines through the wide skins of the heavens. See how clear and mysterious it all is? So, in a way, it's silly for the conscious mind to question magic, because--well, it's so magical itself.

But systems of magic are silly, too, and all of them are really
based upon doubt. Magic is considered so tenuous that someone has to be at it all the time, making spells or paying someone else to do it. And the spells have to be done just right, so people concentrate on how to do this spell or another. This gets very complicated, and many adult books deal with the subject.

But everything is a spell. Your words and thoughts are spells.
Science is just another system that tries to discover what certain
spells cause certain effects. Usually, of course, scientists don't
understand magic any more than priests do; and they all get caught up in their own complicated methods.

There isn't much basic difference between muttering a-lot of phrases or drawing magic circles to protect yourself against illness, and taking a handful of pills given to you by doctors. Both methods work if you believe in them, though the practitioners of one method will never agree that the other way works at all, of course. And unfortunately, neither side 'really' understands magic, which is behind all of the spells and methods and formulas.

Spells work if you believe in them; only you don't need spells at
all. Everything happens by itself. You happen by yourself, so does the world. And the principle behind it all is magic. And magic is the being-Ness within and behind all things.
(thanks ever S&J)
Zaphod Beeblbrox

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07/20/2006 11:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


Mentalities such as this also subscribe to the notion of chimpanzees typing out the library of congress. Complete and utter nonsense.
New World Order credo:
The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!!
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 11:25 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
people with no ability to choose are called indecisive for a reason
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


... I just calls it procratination, and cuz are they not also choosing their 'ables' and/or not 'ables' for them as well?
gooderboy

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07/20/2006 11:28 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
i am not proposing that we censor the language
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312


... but, but, and but... within them frameworks wouldn't it be 'causal' for that sorta 'event' to happen?
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 11:45 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So these free will revisionists might envision a man standing before a criminal judge after robbing a liquor store and killing the sales clerk and pleading "I have no free will. Everything is a random event. I was caused to do it. I had no choice and so I have no responsibility for my actions."
Kemo

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07/20/2006 11:48 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
all events are caused. random events are caused by chance.

all human actions are caused.

human action is purposeful behavior.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 11:48 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So these free will revisionists might envision a man standing before a criminal judge after robbing a liquor store and killing the sales clerk and pleading "I have no free will. Everything is a random event. I was caused to do it. I had no choice and so I have no responsibility for my actions."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


Wouldn't make any difference. The criminal justice system should be based on the protection of society. "Personal responsibility" does not matter one bit. It is necessary to have a criminal justice system to protect society from criminal behavior. This does not depend on a belief in free will, and in fact works much better without such a belief.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
FemAzure  (OP)

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07/20/2006 11:51 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
So these free will revisionists might envision a man standing before a criminal judge after robbing a liquor store and killing the sales clerk and pleading "I have no free will. Everything is a random event. I was caused to do it. I had no choice and so I have no responsibility for my actions."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


Then the guy should have no problem when he is told he is going to the hot seat for his actions. "We take no responsibility for your death. Meet your destiny, fool!" dead3
Anonymous Coward
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07/20/2006 11:51 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What exactly are you smoking?

Our criminal justice system could not exist without taking into account motive and intent - otherwise all would be treated the same without distinction between involuntary and voluntary actions, much less the state of mind of the perpetrator and if they were in fact sane insane.
Naturyl  (OP)

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07/20/2006 11:59 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What exactly are you smoking?

Our criminal justice system could not exist without taking into account motive and intent - otherwise all would be treated the same without distinction between involuntary and voluntary actions, much less the state of mind of the perpetrator and if they were in fact sane insane.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166


Motive and intent have nothing to do with free will. If someone is caused to want to rob a bank for whatever reason, that is motive and intent. No "free will" required.

Criminal justice works better without the belief in "free will." When we only deal with the *causes* and *consequences* of crime, we can protect society from criminal behavior much more rationally and effectively. It would be a huge change for the better.
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Philosophaster

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07/21/2006 12:01 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What exactly are you smoking?

Our criminal justice system could not exist without taking into account motive and intent - otherwise all would be treated the same without distinction between involuntary and voluntary actions, much less the state of mind of the perpetrator and if they were in fact sane insane.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166

True. People who act to harm others on purpose are more dangerous to society, because, other things being equal, they are more likely to harm people repeatedly.

Still, the whole "punishment" and "responsibility" bit is entirely unnecessary to justify the existence of courts and a prison system. A society works better when it locks up people who seek to harm it, so that is what an intelligent society will do. No blabber about "free will" is needed.
celador
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07/21/2006 12:17 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"as master beings (that we once were and are soon to become once more) we are master creators, able to create as god creates - from pure intent - anything and everything the mind can conjure."
-- #117166

Do you think this applies to all humans
and do you know how we can speed this
up because some of us are tired of
waiting...


shroom
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07/21/2006 12:19 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Watch this:

Premise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random.

Premise 2: All human actions are events.

Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random.

If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen.

And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random.

"Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is.
 Quoting: Naturyl





What does a DUDE LIVING OFF THE GOVERNMENT KNOW ABOUT FREE WILL? muaha

$3.39 an hour.

Nope, that's not a joke or a typo, and yes, I live in the USA.

This is what the government currently feels that disabled people with no resources should get.
 Quoting: Naturyl
Naturyl  (OP)

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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Your point?

Do you know what "argumentum ad hominem" is?

EDIT: I've decided to let you buy me a beer. At your expense, of course. :)
Everybody gets the Nat they deserve.
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 12:39 AM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
"as master beings (that we once were and are soon to become once more) we are master creators, able to create as god creates - from pure intent - anything and everything the mind can conjure."
-- #117166

Do you think this applies to all humans
and do you know how we can speed this
up because some of us are tired of
waiting...


shroom
 Quoting: celador 2996



This is the natural, normal state of being and living. It reflects a fully expanded, integrated awareness rooted in pure being. There have been examples through the centuries to remind us that this is not pie in the sky but a natural state that is achieved while on earth and while inhabiting a human body - ala Esu Jmannuel (Jesus)

We have descended so far into materiality and away from our connection to the allness that our lives have become the outpicturing of the grand illusions that have replaced (unified) being - as in the illusion of separation that is extolled by western religion and ingrained into the minds of men to keep them chasing the carrot of salvation - a state of being that exists outside themselves.

We can achieve a state of samadhi by purifying our bodies and expanding/purifying/integrating the transcendent into our waking state of awareness through various regimens or techniques of meditation and the like.
drowden

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07/21/2006 08:49 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
... oh, you do do ya? Well, lol, I'd say that if'n ya can't see just how very shoddy that thar analogy o'yours is...
 Quoting: gooderboy


Really? I suspect you say this merely because you don't understand it. I'll try and explain, even though it is actually rather straightforward. My analogy was that of a "sudden" event. This is a name we give to a particular appearance - which is all fair enough. Things "appear" to happen suddenly. However, if it were the case that we could actually see the causal circimstances of any such event we would no longer experience it as or give it the label "sudden". Surely that is within your intellectual capabilities to understand? Now, think of any individual aspect of "will" for a moment i.e. any individual thought. If we could see the causal circumstances that gives rise to any individual thought, choice or whatever, we would not experience them as "free" and would not label them such. This again is pretty obvious. Does it mean anything to suggest that certain mental phenomena might arise outside any causal circumstance? No, it is breathtakingly stupid to suggest that since it would logically mean that said mental phenomenon arose outside the universe itself.

So, like sudden events, freedom of will is merely a thing that "appears" due to the "shapshot" nature of consciousness. It does not constitute an objectively real aspect of reality. However, due to the nature of our consciousness we are trapped within that illusion in an everday, practical sense. The point is, however, we do not have to be philosophically delusional about it and pretend that it is indeed real in any ultimate or objective way.

The other point I want to quickly address is the "will" part. The reason we experience certain phenomena as "will" is because we identify them with ourselves. That is, we link, by inference and nothing more than inference, these experiences to what we perceive as our inherently, objectively existing "self" or "I". But does this "self" really exist at all in the way we imagine?

Actuallly, I just realised that this part of the issue is probably a step too far. Better to attempt to understand what I said about "freedom" of will before we bother to get into the idea of "will" itself.

Dan Rowden
Zaphod Beeblbrox

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07/21/2006 09:11 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
What exactly are you smoking?

Our criminal justice system could not exist without taking into account motive and intent - otherwise all would be treated the same without distinction between involuntary and voluntary actions, much less the state of mind of the perpetrator and if they were in fact sane insane.


Motive and intent have nothing to do with free will. If someone is caused to want to rob a bank for whatever reason, that is motive and intent. No "free will" required.

Criminal justice works better without the belief in "free will." When we only deal with the *causes* and *consequences* of crime, we can protect society from criminal behavior much more rationally and effectively. It would be a huge change for the better.
 Quoting: Naturyl



This is a very scary trail you are looking down. In this world we envision government controlled behaviour through physical and drug induced modifications? I have no doubt this is the direction the world is taking but to steal a persons identity in such a manner disgusts me to the core.
I'm glad I will not live to see this.

Did you see the Robert Duvall movie "THX1138"? Not a place I want to live.
New World Order credo:
The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!!
Zaphod Beeblbrox

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07/21/2006 09:15 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
... oh, you do do ya? Well, lol, I'd say that if'n ya can't see just how very shoddy that thar analogy o'yours is...

Really? I suspect you say this merely because you don't understand it. I'll try and explain, even though it is actually rather straightforward. My analogy was that of a "sudden" event. This is a name we give to a particular appearance - which is all fair enough. Things "appear" to happen suddenly. However, if it were the case that we could actually see the causal circimstances of any such event we would no longer experience it as or give it the label "sudden". Surely that is within your intellectual capabilities to understand? Now, think of any individual aspect of "will" for a moment i.e. any individual thought. If we could see the causal circumstances that gives rise to any individual thought, choice or whatever, we would not experience them as "free" and would not label them such. This again is pretty obvious. Does it mean anything to suggest that certain mental phenomena might arise outside any causal circumstance? No, it is breathtakingly stupid to suggest that since it would logically mean that said mental phenomenon arose outside the universe itself.

So, like sudden events, freedom of will is merely a thing that "appears" due to the "shapshot" nature of consciousness. It does not constitute an objectively real aspect of reality. However, due to the nature of our consciousness we are trapped within that illusion in an everday, practical sense. The point is, however, we do not have to be philosophically delusional about it and pretend that it is indeed real in any ultimate or objective way.

The other point I want to quickly address is the "will" part. The reason we experience certain phenomena as "will" is because we identify them with ourselves. That is, we link, by inference and nothing more than inference, these experiences to what we perceive as our inherently, objectively existing "self" or "I". But does this "self" really exist at all in the way we imagine?

Actuallly, I just realised that this part of the issue is probably a step too far. Better to attempt to understand what I said about "freedom" of will before we bother to get into the idea of "will" itself.

Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden



Some things are necessary to believe in in order to remain human. Would the world be better off if we replaced everyone with robots? Probably, but who the fuck wants to live there?
New World Order credo:
The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!!
drowden

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07/21/2006 09:23 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Are you saying to be human is to be delusional? If so, I'm happy to be considered alien, thanks. Also, you might like to consider that delusions tend to come in packs; they are as herdly as their possessors.

But it's nice to know you don't consider truth to have any necessary relationship to being human. For me truth is the only possible fulfillment and completion of consciousness itself. But then, perhaps you don't really value consciousness (which is ok, it's just that I do).


Dan Rowden
Anonymous Coward
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07/21/2006 09:23 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Hmmmm.




Still not sure your explanation discounts free will.



Yes, we live in a self-referral, symbiotic, causal universe. Everything affects everything. Nothing exists apart from anything else. Everything flows from something that precedes it - at least in part. But there is creativity and all that it entails - bringing something new into creation - which would seem to support the notion that individual thought precedes free will creation. Pehaps you believe there is no such thing as pure creation.


And how does your theory discount the fact that we still perceive choices in life and we make those choices ultimately on our own - the effects of which tie back to our being, to our conscience and to our very person as dictated by law.


The fact that we may not realize the totality of all previous events and programming that may indeed influence our choices and from an outside point of view, perhaps limit them, does not sever the chain of action from the actor nor erase the fact that we are free to act out whaver choices we make.



Perhaps you are baiting the more philosophical question: Does anyone ever act freely?


But it's a philosophical conundrum at best.



Perhaps you would be better understood if you described what your idea of free will might be - if it did exist in your mind.
Zaphod Beeblbrox

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07/21/2006 09:30 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
Are you saying to be human is to be delusional? If so, I'm happy to be considered alien, thanks. Also, you might like to consider that delusions tend to come in packs; they are as herdly as their possessors.

But it's nice to know you don't consider truth to have any necessary relationship to being human. For me truth is the only possible fulfillment and completion of consciousness itself. But then, perhaps you don't really value consciousness (which is ok, it's just that I do).


Dan Rowden
 Quoting: drowden


First of all I reject your notions of free will utterly. Without invasive means you cannot control the way a person thinks. Much wiser people than you have wrestled this very question for thousands of years.
Your version of truth is not necessarily true.
I wonder who is delusional? I think I am witnessing an advanced case of god complex.
New World Order credo:
The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!!
drowden

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07/21/2006 10:17 PM
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Re: Free Will is a Delusion
First of all I reject your notions of free will utterly. Without invasive means you cannot control the way a person thinks. Much wiser people than you have wrestled this very question for thousands of years.
Your version of truth is not necessarily true.
I wonder who is delusional? I think I am witnessing an advanced case of god complex.
 Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox


Your rejection of my notions of free will means nothing without an argument as to why. If you reject them purely on emotional grounds then I can dismiss you as a person who could care less about what is actually true of the human condition and of Reality. Also, what has controlling what others think got to do with the issue? I'm not sure you even understand what is being said. And you don't actually know how wise I am. Many of the greatest philosophers of history have argued for the illusory nature of free will. As to the "god complex" statement, well, what can I say to that - you think you know better too so does that mean we both have a complex?

Dan Rowden





GLP