Free Will is a Delusion | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 102648 United States 07/19/2006 08:31 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 625 United States 07/19/2006 08:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
gooderboy User ID: 81174 United States 07/19/2006 08:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Watch this: Quoting: NaturylPremise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random. Premise 2: All human actions are events. Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random. If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen. And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random. "Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is. ... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh? |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 08:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 08:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 08:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh? Quoting: gooderboyThe concept itself is meaningless, because it signifies nothing but a misunderstanding. The implications of (deluded) belief in free will, however, are far from meaningless. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 08:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Azoth777 User ID: 113992 United States 07/19/2006 08:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 08:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In my view, most human actions are caused, while a very few may be random. In order for an action to be truly random, tiny uncaused quantum fluctuations in the brain would have to propagate and "snowball" in such a way as to trigger a full scale physiological or mental event, which is rather difficult from a neurological perspective. Such quantum fluctuations are so insignificant as to be inconsequential at the macroscopic level in almost all cases. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 08:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 08:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time. Quoting: NaturylAh, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons. Done yet? That is beyond my present knowledge yet such powers still exists as a possibility for man. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 08:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 75579 United States 07/19/2006 08:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 08:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I admit we aren't the "doers" but maybe we are the choosers. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 08:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | since you claim you have no free will Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312how are you able to resist God and lie about Him? excuse me. can you tell me how you choose to type the words above? oh you thought of it? where did those thoughts come from, and how did you choose those thoughts? whats that you say, you dont know? o i guess than means you have no choose you fuckin dumb idiot. |
Azoth777 User ID: 113992 United States 07/19/2006 08:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Sol Invictus User ID: 112749 Denmark 07/19/2006 08:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion. Premise 1: All german shepherds are dogs Premise 2: All dogs are mammals Conclusion: All mammals are dogs. But your logic is better than that, of course. Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option, even if I personally think it's not all that common :P Cause & Effect rules most of the world, granted. Aut viam inveniam aut faciam |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 08:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything? You dont know where your thoughts come from therefore how can you choose anything? you got a point. I didn't create myself or my thoughts, not that I can recall or as I know myself now anyway. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
gooderboy User ID: 81174 United States 07/19/2006 08:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... piffle again.... and here I thought you said that 'free will is meaningless'... lol, guess not, huh? Quoting: NaturylThe concept itself is meaningless, because it signifies nothing but a misunderstanding. The implications of (deluded) belief in free will, however, are far from meaningless. ... how can any concept be meaningless? How is that even possible, and who has them kinda 'de-meaning' powers upon any conceptualized framework anyways? ... many the miss-understanding of anything carries the joy of understanding anxiously awaiting its time as well.... and hmmmm... maybe that ol' 'trial and error' stuff comes to mind? ... soooo then, where do these so called implications arise from? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 08:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion. Quoting: Sol InvictusPremise 1: All german shepherds are dogs Premise 2: All dogs are mammals Conclusion: All mammals are dogs. But your logic is better than that, of course. Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option :P Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread? thanks. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 72054 United States 07/19/2006 08:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | We don't have free will Quoting: NaturylBut we do have freedom of choice This reminds me of that Alex Jones movie where he interviews a woman who says "I think we should give up our liberty for freedom." You do know that Alex Jones is a fundamentalist Christian? Why are you watching his movies? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 118505 United States 07/19/2006 08:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Typical "Chaos precedes Order" logic. Listen, what caused you to make this topic? You might say that your recent reflection caused you to come to a realization about free-will, thus you made this topic to explain that to us. I ask, what made you reflect and realize? You see, even if you answer this question, I'll simply ask more questions ad infinitum. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | IDIOTS UNDERSTAND THIS: when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will. dont you understand. god damn. |
gooderboy User ID: 81174 United States 07/19/2006 09:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time. Quoting: NaturylAh, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons. Done yet? ... cain't go against the 'prime directive', and don't ya know? Oh, and btw, lol, said like a true materialist kinda guy too. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 118505 United States 07/19/2006 09:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | IDIOTS Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549UNDERSTAND THIS: when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will. dont you understand. god damn. What caused those "combination of internal neuron activities"? And what caused the causation of those "internal neuron activities"? :clogic: |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | FREE WILL Quoting: Rush 119559There are those who think that life Has nothing left to chance With a host of holy horrors To direct our aimless dance A planet of playthings We dance on the strings Of powers we cannot perceive The stars arent aligned --- Or the gods are malign Blame is better to give than receive You can choose a ready guide In some celestial voice If you choose not to decide You still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears And kindness that can kill I will choose a path thats clear I will choose free will There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand The cards were stacked against them --- They werent born in lotus-land All preordained A prisoner in chains A victim of venomous fate Kicked in the face You cant pray for a place In heavens unearthly estate Each of us A cell of awareness Imperfect and incomplete Genetic blends With uncertain ends On a fortune hunt Thats far too fleet.. YOU JERK, YOU DAMN SPAMING JERK I DONT WANT YOUR FUCKIN LYRICS IN THIS THREAD< SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH YOU SPAMING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Azoth777 User ID: 113992 United States 07/19/2006 09:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In my view, most human actions are caused, while a very few may be random. In order for an action to be truly random, tiny uncaused quantum fluctuations in the brain would have to propagate and "snowball" in such a way as to trigger a full scale physiological or mental event, which is rather difficult from a neurological perspective. Such quantum fluctuations are so insignificant as to be inconsequential at the macroscopic level in almost all cases. Quoting: NaturylWhat sources can I reference to learn about uncased quantum fluctuations in the brain? I would like to learn more. |
Zaphod Beeblbrox User ID: 83027 United States 07/19/2006 09:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Watch this: Quoting: NaturylPremise 1: Physics shows that all events are either caused or random. Premise 2: All human actions are events. Conclusion: All human actions are either caused or random. If human actions are caused, they are not freely chosen. If they are random, they are also not freely chosen. And we cannot say that human actions are "caused by free choice" to save the concept of free will, for "free choice" itself is either caused or random. "Free will" is either a misunderstanding of causation or a misunderstanding of randomness. It is not real, and is thus either an illusion or a delusion, depending on your view of how useful the fiction is. My actions are "caused" by my free intellectual choice. If I do not choose to act the event does not happen and vice versa. I choose whether or not the event occurs. You cannot prove otherwise. |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | we are not an event we are "beings' hence beyond space and time. Quoting: gooderboyAh, I see. Since that is the case, please fly around the world in a split second and rid it of all nuclear weapons. Done yet? ... cain't go against the 'prime directive', and don't ya know? Oh, and btw, lol, said like a true materialist kinda guy too. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |