Free Will is a Delusion

You do know that Alex Jones is a fundamentalist Christian? Why are you watching his movies?

no
we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior
we have laws
because people can choose to obey them

This whole thread:



And I do get it, but your first assumption is flawed. You cannot quantify thought as a caused OR random event. Nobody knows what it is.

This whole thread:



And I do get it, but your first assumption is flawed. You cannot quantify thought as a caused OR random event. Nobody knows what it is.


A thought is an event. All events are either caused or random. Therefore, thoughts are either caused or random.

Are you suggesting that there are events which are neither caused or random? That doesn't make any sense. Events either have a cause, or they don't.

Wouldn't the conclusion found by your premise 1 and 2 be.
All german shepherds are mammals.

"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."

OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything




Maybe your mind just can't grasp what I'm saying ;) I'd draw a little picture for you or use my hands to explain, but unfortunately that would be hard on GLP...

So let me try to again with just words.

You are saying we have no choice, no free will.

I'm at A, and no matter what I do, I'll go to B, because that's what A leads to. Therefore I have no choice, no free will.

Follow me so far?

OK.

What if however, I got superpowers. What if I, in this moment, could see an *infinite* amount of variations of my future unfold... and what if my mind could actually make sense of it. I could go to B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way through the alphabet and into infinite numbers if I wanted to. Are you saying that in that moment of super-thought, I wouldn't have free will?

I would move through time to do things, obviously, but time would not *limit* me anymore... since I could navigate "potential futures" at will.

Does that make more sense to you?

all of you behaviorists cannot explain why we have courts and prisons
because, according to you we have no choice in our actions
some people are just magically law abiding and others magically commit crimes

this is magical thinking

"we have prisons
because people ARE responsible
for their behavior"

That is precisely the danger of the free will delusion. It makes people believe that the purpose of criminal justice is to punish rather than to protect society from further criminal behavior. It fosters a punitive "people deserve what they get" mentality which allows us to justify exploitative hierachies and excuse all kinds of abuse and cruelty by saying "they deserved it."

Without the belief in free will, the world would have already eradicated poverty, for example. Poverty is only allowed to exist because the wealthy are able to argue that the poor somehow deserve it due to their own "free choices."

"Free will" is a very dangerous delusion. It is at the root of a great deal of evil. The sooner we realize this, the better.

all of you behaviorists cannot explain why we have courts and prisons
because, according to you we have no choice in our actions
some people are just magically law abiding and others magically commit crimes

this is magical thinking


LOL. For a free-will believer to accuse determinists of "magical thinking" is deliciously ironic. You are the magical thinker, because you believe that human beings are so special that they get to to override the laws of physics and create events which are neither caused or random. That is pure magical thinking. It's practically the gold standard of magical thinking, in fact.

And BTW, prisons and courts are perfectly sensible without a belief in free will. Some people are caused to commit crimes, and the rest of us need to be protected from such persons. How you could fail to understand so simple is beyond me.

I know from your "genius" thread that you
are playing devil's advocate but you are
walking a razor's edge between strength
and fragility but, you know this...

so, you are programmed to resist any religious talk?
why do you think that is?

That's exactly what *I'm* saying, at least... and unless you claim to have the universal laws of physics worked out 100%, you'd have to be at least open to the possibility... What do you think caused the FIRST CAUSE? I'd like an answer, if you've got one, because it should be good...

Well, that is good, Sol.

LOL, I didn't mean to imply that you have a thin skin. Rather, you have to wonder, when the flaming goes berserk, what is the point?

Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt.

That's exactly what *I'm* saying, at least... and unless you claim to have the universal laws of physics worked out 100%, you'd have to be at least open to the possibility... What do you think caused the FIRST CAUSE? I'd like an answer, if you've got one, because it should be good...


Events either have a cause, or they don't. If they do not have a cause, they are not the result of free will, because in free will, *choice* is the causal agent.

According to free will, each freely chosen action is in fact a "first cause," independent of of all other causal factors.

But I don't believe in first causes. I believe that Nature (that which brought about the creation of the Universe) is infinite and eternal, and is without cause.

Eseentially, the world and all events within it (human actions or otherwise) "just is," as you suggested - but I disgree with you that this perspective establishes or supports free will.

FREE WILL


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet..

You still don't understand. Hopeless. He blantantly ignores each and every one of my rebuttals, and yet clings to his petty logic. It's an completely unbalanced way of thinking.

I'll say it again.

"Then why do we need to be protected from said individuals, if they didn't choose to commit the dastardly deed? If they didn't choose, then THEY can't be held accountable. If your logic is valid, then wouldn't they just go back to being their old self once the "event" is delt with? Why prison?

For example: What if I robbed a bank because I was poor? Obviously, the sitution was caused due to me being poor and wanting a better life. Why imprison me, if the situation is to blame. If I didn't CHOOSE to be poor, then the sitution is out of my hands, correct? Why not just imprison the situation, then?

Your logic is corrupt."