Free Will is a Delusion | |
Zaphod Beeblbrox User ID: 83027 United States 07/22/2006 03:37 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | There can be no such thing as free will except for in everyday terms such as i 'chose' to drink OJ vs 'my wife made me drink oj'. Quoting: Tone 120512free will cant exist. when you type a response to this, it will come from thoughts that are controlled by every experience you ever had + DNA + Random positioning of neurons. it cant exist. whatever you reply to this, youll think its a choice, but its not.. now: and stop arguing weather 2 + 2 = 4 or weather the sky is blue or not. Shut Up. got it? youre retarded and dont understand. you have a fucking cognitive disorder. youre stupid. shut up. I can do this or this or this or this All free choices made by a free will. Now you can go fuck yourself dipshit. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/22/2006 03:40 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. One could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism. Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027BTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions." Ya know something buddy? I've been listening to you spout off for a couple days now about how smart you are. You've shown me nothing but what an asshole you really are. Now that your in the position of having to admit your precious theory is wrong you instead turn to personal attack. All you are is another intellectual wannabe dumbass whose parents probably had enough money to dump your annoying ass into college to get some peice of mind. You can't apply your stupid fucking theory to something that has never been defined in the first place you fucking moron. I haven't made any definitive ASSERTIONS other than the fact that you and the other guy are full of shit. Uh-oh, somebody's mad... If you can't refute it, talk tough. That always works. Just ask Bush. BTW, I am a high-school dropout. My parents were poor and so am I. In your mind, I'm sure that makes the ass-whooping I've given you guys even more embrassing - not that you'd admit it, lol. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/22/2006 03:42 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hehehe... this is quite amusing. You guys who like to play intellectual and rather pathetically attempt to use big words are in a world of shit now, because Dan Rowden is a friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life pursuing truth and reality like most of you pursue money and self-satisfaction. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 112095It may not be clear just yet, but GLP has been invaded by a a bunch of authentic, no-bullshit philosophers - namely Dan, Philosophaster, and myself, and quite a few people are going to have to face the music, like it or not. We are here to bring the most hated and reviled of all things - the plain and honest truth. Read us at your own peril, because we enjoy yanking away all delusional security blankets. :) Hello James. Up to your same ol'shit again I see. Later Mr. Quirk Ah, somebody learned how to use Google. Congratulations. You are being reported to GLP staff. :) Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
the world according to Bush User ID: 120558 United States 07/22/2006 03:45 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | someone walks into a room a shouts..."I know...i Know".....and then screams a stream of 20 dollar words that even he does not understand.......he then waits......hoping to hear only an echo of what he just said...for him an echo is proof he is "right"........a shot of rum and its off to bed...... "How very little we really know" |
drowden User ID: 120435 Australia 07/22/2006 04:28 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In other words you don't know either. Quoting: Zaphod Beeblbrox 83027My post contained an answer to the question. Either you don't understand it or it doesn't suit your purposes. Funny how when people get answer they don't like they dismiss you as not knowing, even when they admit that they themselves don't. Oh well. I'd ask what part of what I wrote you don't like but I'm not sure I actually care... Dan Rowden |
Zaphod Beeblbrox User ID: 83027 United States 07/22/2006 05:16 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In other words you don't know either. Quoting: drowdenMy post contained an answer to the question. Either you don't understand it or it doesn't suit your purposes. Funny how when people get answer they don't like they dismiss you as not knowing, even when they admit that they themselves don't. Oh well. I'd ask what part of what I wrote you don't like but I'm not sure I actually care... Dan Rowden Hardly a falsifiable definition though is it? It suits no purpose at all as it is only oppinion. |
Zaphod Beeblbrox User ID: 83027 United States 07/22/2006 05:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If you can't refute it, talk tough. That always works. Just ask Bush. Nice feeble attempt at reversal. This is exactly what you are attempting to do to me. I understand now you are simply too dim to understand what I'm trying to tell you. One more time in small words so you can understand: Your theory cannot be applied to something that has not been defined, that indeed some say may exist outside the strictures of the universe altogether. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/22/2006 05:43 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nah. Nature is nature. Argue with that. And your sense of superiority and entitlement is now on public display. It's funny how there can be better mechanics than you, better rocket scientists, better doctors, and better writers, but when anybody claims to know more about life than you do, you have to reflexively object (and assert your own presumed superiority in the process). That is American-style anti-intellectualism in a nutshell. There can be all kinds of specialists, but nobody is allowed to know more than anybody else about anything that "really counts." This attitude got us "beer buddy" George Bush as President. Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
gooderboy User ID: 70394 United States 07/22/2006 07:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hehehe... this is quite amusing. You guys who like to play intellectual and rather pathetically attempt to use big words are in a world of shit now, because Dan Rowden is a friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life pursuing truth and reality like most of you pursue money and self-satisfaction. Quoting: NaturylIt may not be clear just yet, but GLP has been invaded by a a bunch of authentic, no-bullshit philosophers - namely Dan, Philosophaster, and myself, and quite a few people are going to have to face the music, like it or not. We are here to bring the most hated and reviled of all things - the plain and honest truth. Read us at your own peril, because we enjoy yanking away all delusional security blankets. :) ... yes it really is amusing, lol... and now I also understand why you guys have been pusuing truth for such a long time too.... and I see that it's obviously still evading you as well. Pursue on dudes.... |
gooderboy User ID: 70394 United States 07/22/2006 07:04 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | What causes thought then? Please enlighten me. Quoting: drowdenOh, that's easy. In the most complete sense the cause of any given thought is "not that thought". The cause of "thought" is "not thought". Any answer less than that is just contingent empirical modelling. Which is not say that such modelling might not provide us with very practical outcomes. Science's very importance lies in its practical outcomes and the utility of its models rather than in its explicatory power because science doesn't actually explains anything (not in any complete sense anyway). See, and you thought it would be difficult! Dan Rowden ... oh oh, and ya even play at the hedging game too, I love it. Soooo then, what causes 'thought' and/or that supposed 'not thought' o'yours? What is the cause? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 117166 United States 07/22/2006 07:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | A "whose is longer?" competition? A "my dog/philosopher is smarter than your dog/philosopher" show? Everyone wants to be regarded as the most sublimely gifted. Is everyone that insecure? Wanna whip out IQ's and sheepskins? I know you're all wont to do so. Anyone here got an IQ above genius????? NO??? Then I guess we're all sorta equal. Amazing the ill humour going around when people share the best of what they know to be true and receive insults in return. It's OK that no one grasped my answer. How's that for condescending?????? So who wants to play nice???? Anyone? |
gooderboy User ID: 70394 United States 07/22/2006 07:09 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. That is why one could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism, so please feel free to provide just that. I'd expect nothing less. Quoting: NaturylBTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions." ...awwww, poor baby (again, lol)... and ya still haven't ever even noticed that when ya point them de-meaning kinda fingers o'yours at others... there's 3 more of your fingers a'pointin' right back at ya.... tsk and tsk, lol.... and again too, get over yourself little boy. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/22/2006 07:10 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Anyone here got an IQ above genius????? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166NO??? Yes. And so do Dan and Philosphaster. Ask a question, get an answer. That's the way it goes. If you want to "play nice," how about starting by not trying to knock us down just because we are speaking philosophically? I know, too much to ask... Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/22/2006 07:12 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | And yet you, a hypocritical idiot of obviously limited intellect, feel totally confident in making your own assertions without hesitation. In addition, you clearly feel obliviously comfortable about invalidating other's views even while promoting your own. The irony of all this, of course, is entirely lost on you. That is why one could not reasonably expect anything other than an identically clueless sermon in response to this criticism, so please feel free to provide just that. I'd expect nothing less. Quoting: gooderboyBTW, the above is the correct spelling of the term "assertions." ...awwww, poor baby (again, lol)... and ya still haven't ever even noticed that when ya point them de-meaning kinda fingers o'yours at others... there's 3 more of your fingers a'pointin' right back at ya.... tsk and tsk, lol.... and again too, get over yourself little boy. Is "aww, poor baby" your stock answer to everything? Have you ever tried making an actual argument? Just curious. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Sol Invictus User ID: 112749 Denmark 07/22/2006 08:59 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care. Quoting: NaturylAnd intellectualism is a foundational pillar of communism :) The problems with anti-intellectualism are obvious, but do you agree there are problems with intellectualism as well? Intellectual arrogance, being one of them... I have no problem with arrogance per se, but I'd prefer it to be well-founded in reality, not wishful thinking... For example, the concept of zero. Apparently, it's quite hard to grasp - unless learned - and the human mind is apparently almost incapable of understanding it until it has developed for 2-3 years, and even then, it has to be taught. It took centuries for mathematics to develop that concept and practically apply it, after all. There's also a reason that 5 year-olds don't learn quantum physics... their minds just aren't *capable* of making the necessary connections, unless they're some one-in-a-million child prodigy, perhaps... but if they're not, then the best teacher in the world would not even attempt to teach such things to children. I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand. Talking and discussing difficult concepts is all well and good, but arguing that "my concept is the 100% truth" is ... well, for lack of a better word, probably delusional at this point. There was a writer once who said that *no one* could create a fictional character smarter than himself. If you have no idea how to make the ultimate bank robbery, you can't possible make even a fictional character pull that off either... Thinking about it logically, that sounds very true. This also means that your philosophy, despite sounding quite convincing, is *limited* by your own inherent intellectual capacity. Intellectuals often forget that maybe humans aren't the smartest creatures in the Universe. "Nature" is probably smarter than you... agreed? Hence IT is not limited by your "logic"... Maybe there's just some things that our brains can't grasp at this point... like free will and how it works in a cause & effect environment... but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like the concept of zero still exists even if a 2-year old human can't grasp it. I'd have no problems with any of your statements, Natyrul or your philosopher friends, if you'd just end them with a little My opinion, etc. :P Aut viam inveniam aut faciam |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 120630 United States 07/22/2006 09:07 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | One can either choose TO React to an Action and therefore claim : You made me do it. Or they can choose to stop the chain reaction of the Action/Reaction. The choice To react is the Will of the Ego The choice Not to react is the Will of Consciousness. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 106099 Australia 07/22/2006 09:16 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 106099 Australia 07/22/2006 09:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
drowden User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 09:39 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Soooo then, what causes 'thought' and/or that supposed 'not thought' o'yours? What is the cause? Quoting: gooderboyReality. What else could it be? If you take the duality of a thought and that which is not that thought you are left with *all that is*. Only a really silly person would consequently ask what the cause of Reality is. Are you that silly? Dan Rowden |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 10:08 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Anti-intellectualism is a foundational pillar of fascism - not that you'd know or care. [Naturyl quote] Quoting: Sol InvictusAnd intellectualism is a foundational pillar of communism :) There is no real difference between what we have called communism and fascism. We've yet to see communism. The problems with anti-intellectualism are obvious, but do you agree there are problems with intellectualism as well? Quoting: Yes, when it is merely scholarship and has no real concern for what is true. Intellectual arrogance, being one of them... I have no problem with arrogance per se, but I'd prefer it to be well-founded in reality, not wishful thinking... Quoting: Arrogance, by definition, is not grounded in reality since it involves an exaggeration of what is real. Therefore you *should* have a problem with it, per se. For example, the concept of zero. Apparently, it's quite hard to grasp - unless learned - and the human mind is apparently almost incapable of understanding it until it has developed for 2-3 years, and even then, it has to be taught. It took centuries for mathematics to develop that concept and practically apply it, after all. Quoting: This is because zero is a mathematical artiface. It has no real world referent so why wouldn't it be hard to grasp? There's also a reason that 5 year-olds don't learn quantum physics... their minds just aren't *capable* of making the necessary connections, unless they're some one-in-a-million child prodigy, perhaps... but if they're not, then the best teacher in the world would not even attempt to teach such things to children. Quoting: Oh, I don't know, quantum physics is almost entirely inhabited by philosophical children, so I'm not sure your point holds.. I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand. Quoting: Ok, so has anyone actually expressed that view? Talking and discussing difficult concepts is all well and good, but arguing that "my concept is the 100% truth" is ... well, for lack of a better word, probably delusional at this point. Quoting: That is the most arrogant statement anyone can make. You don't even see why it is, do you? There was a writer once who said that *no one* could create a fictional character smarter than himself.[/quote[] Quoting: Well, duh, that guy must have been a genius. If you have no idea how to make the ultimate bank robbery, you can't possible make even a fictional character pull that off either... Thinking about it logically, that sounds very true. Quoting: Yes, it's the logic of an 8 year old. True, but not very impressive. This also means that your philosophy, despite sounding quite convincing, is *limited* by your own inherent intellectual capacity. Quoting: Objection yer Honour! Facts not in evidence! I suggest you do a remedial course in logical fallacies before you continue to argue in this thread. Intellectuals often forget that maybe humans aren't the smartest creatures in the Universe. Quoting: Sadly, you have demonstrated thus far that you don't really know what it means to be intellectual. I suspect you mean well, but you need to think about it a lot more than you have. "Nature" is probably smarter than you... agreed? Quoting: No, because Nature is not a conscious thing. Nature doesn't even exist as such. Ascribing intelligence to Nature is such a terrible insult to her! Hence IT is not limited by your "logic"... Maybe there's just some things that our brains can't grasp at this point... like free will and how it works in a cause & effect environment... but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like the concept of zero still exists even if a 2-year old human can't grasp it. Ok, take a breath, you're just free-emoting now... I'd have no problems with any of your statements, Natyrul or your philosopher friends, if you'd just end them with a little Quoting: My opinion, etc. Then you will have to have a problem with them because I will not pretend to merely believe what I know. Believers are such ugly creatures. Dan Rowden |
drowden User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 10:11 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 120639 United States 07/22/2006 10:15 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
drowden User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 10:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Well no, and not necessarily... I would have to say, and one... that your dream-state would be like more than hint-filled of the vast spaciousness of all of the known, and unknown, universes... which you, btw, seem so very cavalierly... to somehow manage to shrink all possible probabilities for to fit into your more than rather limited view of the diversity of all that is. Quoting: gooderboyLike, wow, are you, like high when you say that, like, wow, like wow, like, what? Where was I? Like. Oh yeah - WOW.... Needless to say any future dialogue will be dependent on my going insane... |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 117166 United States 07/22/2006 10:29 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This thought vs reality discussion smacks of the chicken or the egg - which precedes which. It would seem that if one espouses that reality precedes thought, then it would follow that we are not the authors/creators of our own realities. This would be consistent with the assertion that free will does not exist. However, I would submit that thought always precedes creation - which supports that we do indeed create our own realities - that we are at least participants in our life's direction and outcome - that we do exercise individual will - however free or limited at times. The missing link here which has been discounted by the philosophical contingent is the existence of the soul - for if reality does not precede thought, perhaps it is the murmurings/proddings of the soul that spawn thoughts that eventually produce the desired reality/conditions/events which choreograph the intended experience for soul growth. The question of free will may well hinge on the existence of the individual soul. And once again, is you believe that free will does not exist and work backwards from that - then I suppose you would have to conclude that there is no eternal compass that carries us through life and beyond unto eternity. It makes for interesting philosophical debate, I suppose, but it is not the case. |
Celador User ID: 2996 United States 07/22/2006 10:38 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "going to have to face the music, like it or not". "yanking away all delusional security blankets." --Naturyl --------------------------- Some of us have already faced our own music and yanked away all our own delusional security blankets. What remains is that thing (essence or spirit) that you find so elusive and frightening. If you were seeking to understand it or even "possess" it, I would continue to "play." But since you've made it clear that your motive is to destroy it (which is impossible, btw) I'm going to do that which you fear the most -- ignore you. In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine |
Zaphod Beeblbrox User ID: 83027 United States 07/22/2006 10:38 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | But Maybe you will listen to someone else describe the flaw in your original definition of thought and free will? [link to www.dhushara.com] New World Order credo: The whole world will learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE!!! |
drowden User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 10:42 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | And once again, is you believe that free will does not exist and work backwards from that - then I suppose you would have to conclude that there is no eternal compass that carries us through life and beyond unto eternity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 117166A teleological view of existence/reality is necessarily unsustainable, meaningless and absurd. To assert a purpose and meaning to existence is to toss sand around in a philosophical sandbox. Watch out for stray cats. Dan Rowden |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 120666 United States 07/22/2006 10:52 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
drowden User ID: 120638 Australia 07/22/2006 10:57 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "going to have to face the music, like it or not". Quoting: Celador"yanking away all delusional security blankets." --Naturyl --------------------------- Some of us have already faced our own music and yanked away all our own delusional security blankets. What remains is that thing (essence or spirit) that you find so elusive and frightening. If you were seeking to understand it or even "possess" it, I would continue to "play." But since you've made it clear that your motive is to destroy it (which is impossible, btw) I'm going to do that which you fear the most -- ignore you. This is how the feminine works. Make you feel guilty without giving any actual reason why you should - with the added "if I ignore you you'll be hurt by my absence because I am what you want most.." bullshit. Absence doesn't hurt an actual man; that is a uniquely female pain because women have no inner world into which they can retreat. What would solitude be for a woman be if there wasn't someone in the next room? Dan Rowden |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 117166 United States 07/22/2006 11:14 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | >>>A teleological view of existence/reality is necessarily unsustainable, meaningless and absurd. To assert a purpose and meaning to existence is to toss sand around in a philosophical sandbox.<<< Fortunately, I do not live in a philosophical sand box. And there is no way out of yours, it would seem. So does it follow that life has no purpose? So what is desire? Why does it create, seek results? Is there anything to be gained from life? Why do we create? What is it inside that makes us feel satisfied when our creation meets our expectations? Does your existence have any intention, or desire mixed in? |